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Thread: Autosomal map : African admixture (from Dodecad)

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    Arrow Autosomal map : African admixture (from Dodecad)



    After the Mediterranean admixture, here is the map of the African admixture, using the total of the Northwest African, East African, Neo-African and Paleo-African elements from the Dodecad Project.

    I wish I could have data for the following regions of Spain to confirm the shade : Asturias, Cantabria, Extremadura, Castille, Andalusia, and Murcia. I already have data for the other regions.


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    Very interesting. The east-west gradient in Iberia kind of proves that this cannot be an artifact of the Moorish period, where we would expect a north-south gradient. Also, we see east-west gradients with several Y-Haplogroups in Iberia as well, in particular E1b, but to a lesser degree the tendency towards a match is also with J1 and T.

    I think, the conclusion is that we definitely need Neolithic Y-DNA from Iberia. This might definitely solve the origin of some European Haplogroups, and verify the possibility that these entered from North Africa during the Neolithic.

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    It's pretty obvious most of the African scores reported between Iberians are very old. The Moorish period did not affect the regions in equal degree, and most of them were simply expulsed or killed (natives converted to Muslim included, so the thing was quite serious). The Catholic Kings were very hard in that issue as historical papers report.

    Totally agree we need Neolithic Y-DNA from Iberia, and also France would be interesting since there are some North African haplogroups between them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    It's pretty obvious most of the African scores reported between Iberians are very old. The Moorish period did not affect the regions in equal degree, and most of them were simply expulsed or killed (natives converted to Muslim included, so the thing was quite serious). The Catholic Kings were very hard in that issue as historical papers report.
    Hm, I'm not sure why that's obvious. Haven't most attempts to give percentages of Moorish influence on Iberia placed it in the low single-digits? And what we're seeing on the map is low single-digits. Perhaps the distribution pattern suggests that it isn't 100% Moorish period, but these numbers aren't huge to begin with (nothing over 10% in Europe), so I can't imagine the Moorish period not being a significant component of the little that's there.

    The lack of data for Andalusia could really throw off this map.

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    Galicia is one of the zones with more African admixture, you can check it in the Dodecad participants: 081, 392, 393,614.

    Never conquered by Moorish, if that's not obvious...enough said.

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    Portugal was huge in slave trade from Africa. Map shows maximum of admixture where Portugal is in Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Galicia is one of the zones with more African admixture, you can check it in the Dodecad participants: 081, 392, 393,614.

    Never conquered by Moorish, if that's not obvious...enough said.
    It's one of the highest zones tested, so it could give us a good upper limit for the influence of pre-Moorish (and/or post-Moorish) African admixture. But without Andalusia we can't really get a similar value for the Moorish admixture.

    Given the Italian distribution I'm guessing that more of what we see in Iberia is pre-Moorish than not, I'm just arguing that we don't know that for sure yet.

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    Portugal has the highest frequency. However It doesn't appear too much different from Galicia, with no significant tradition of what you say as far as I know.

    Portuguese are very homogeneous and mostly Northwest African focussing on the African admixture, not probable slave trade is related. Between the British you have a perfect example (056), who is clearly the product of some kind of salve trade in comparisson with the rest. The difference is notable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Portugal was huge in slave trade from Africa. Map shows maximum of admixture where Portugal is in Iberia.
    I highly doubt the Atlantic Slave Trade had any real impact on Portugal's African haplogroup or autosomal frequencies. Let's not fall victim to faulty historiography and anecdotal accounts without basis in fact.

    At it's highest point, the African salve population in Portugal was ~ 1.5% nationwide (Saunders, 1982). The greatest numbers by far were recorded in Lisbon and a few areas further south, such as Evora. Slaves in central and northern Portugal were practically non-existent.

    I would be curious to see what the average Black African (as well as other African) slave percentages were for cities like Liverpool, Cardiff, Bristol and even Rotterdam, as these towns were major players in the Atlantic Slave Trade. Liverpool, for instance, has a significant mixed-race community that stretches back to the early 1700s (Brown, 2005). At the Trade's zenith, Liverpool was Europe's largest slave port with respect to volume.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 16-09-11 at 20:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    The lack of data for Andalusia could really throw off this map.
    Bullshit. The Behar sample includes 6 andalusians.

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    Edit. I don't see the point in grouping Berbers with the rest of Africa, when Berbers are a caucasoid population.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Bullshit. The Behar sample includes 6 andalusians.
    Sure, Andalusian autosomal scores are quite similar to other Spaniards. No great mystery.

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    Also, the Basque-Navarrese-North Aragon-etc all this region is at 0%. Basques are 0%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Bullshit. The Behar sample includes 6 andalusians.
    OK then instead of cursing at me, give them to Maciamo, he says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I wish I could have data for the following regions of Spain to confirm the shade : Asturias, Cantabria, Extremadura, Castille, Andalusia, and Murcia. I already have data for the other regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Also, the Basque-Navarrese-North Aragon-etc all this region is at 0%. Basques are 0%
    Not exactly 0%, the average should be around 1%, althought it's difficult to say. But I highly doubt North Italy is 0% as the map shows for the same reason (Southern influence).

    If we take the Autosomal data available, both Basques and North Italians must appear with 0%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Also, the Basque-Navarrese-North Aragon-etc all this region is at 0%. Basques are 0%
    Other than NW African, aren't African autosomal frequencies below noise levels (i.e., less than 2%) in all of Europe?

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    It is impossible that the African admixture in Portugal come from the slave trade because the biggest part of the African admixture is Northwest African (=Maghreban) then East African (Ethiopia, Somalia, etc.). Only a tiny fraction is Neo-African or Paleo-African.

    Another reason it is impossible is the timeframe. The African admixture is present in virtually every individual from Western Iberia, and the vast majority of all Iberians. It means that this is a quite ancient admixture, not one from the Renaissance, and probably not from the medieval Moorish period either.

    That's why I think we have to look at a much older migration, any time between 20,000 and 4,000 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is impossible that the African admixture in Portugal come from the slave trade because the biggest part of the African admixture is Northwest African (=Maghreban) then East African (Ethiopia, Somalia, etc.). Only a tiny fraction is Neo-African or Paleo-African.

    Another reason it is impossible is the timeframe. The African admixture is present in virtually every individual from Western Iberia, and the vast majority of all Iberians. It means that this is a quite ancient admixture, not one from the Renaissance, and probably not from the medieval Moorish period either.

    That's why I think we have to look at a much older migration, any time between 20,000 and 4,000 years ago.
    I fully agree. It's what human population geneticists have been stating for quite some time - nearly all African DNA in Portugal (all Iberia) is likely Neolithic or even Mesolithic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Edit. I don't see the point in grouping Berbers with the rest of Africa, when Berbers are a caucasoid population.
    Berbers are clearly different, yes. Would be good to have results from different ethnic Berber tribes. Also, East African as component, is quite far from Negroids, since it's even closer to Europe than Southeast and Northeast Asian. If Ethiopians and other East Africans have black skin is because they also carry around 16% Neo African + Paleo African.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Berbers are clearly different, yes. Would be good to have results from different ethnic Berber tribes. Also, East African as component, is quite far from Negroids, since it's even closer to Europe than Southeast and Northeast Asian. If Ethiopians and other East Africans have black skin is because they also carry around 16% Neo African + Paleo African.
    Indeed, it would quite useful to have samplings from N. African individuals who are fully Kaybel (sp?) Amazigh, since they would be closest genetically to the original Berbers, particularly those who have practiced strict tribal endogamy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Not exactly 0%, the average should be around 1%, althought it's difficult to say. But I highly doubt North Italy is 0% as the map shows for the same reason (Southern influence).

    If we take the Autosomal data available, both Basques and North Italians must appear with 0%
    I have checked and Basques have 0.3%. That's less than what French have. Probably the surrounding regions have about the same (Navarra, Aragon, etc). So the map is wrong.

    Edit: Also Tuscany has 1%, and is not in the map.

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    Going by haplogroup frequencies it surprises me Greece has no autosomal North African component at all.

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    They have substantial West Asian and Southwest Asian that can perfectly be associated to the migration of some E subclade peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    They have substantial West Asian and Southwest Asian that can perfectly be associated to the migration of some E subclade peoples.
    A middle-eastern map would be interesting (West Asian + Southwest-Asian)

    PD: Greeks have 32% mid-east/caucasus autosomal, and 58% by paternal line.

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    I have modified a bit the map. Added Vasco-Navarres, and also the 100 Tuscans (1% African) :


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