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Thread: Autosomal map : African admixture (from Dodecad)

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    Med vs N. Africa = 0.067 (0.001 closer)
    W. Asia vs N. Africa = 0.068 (0.001 far)

    Med vs E. Africa = 0.117 (0.006 far)
    W. Asia vs E. Africa = 0.111 (0.006 closer)

    North/East Africa (everywhere in North Africa) = West Asian is 0.005 closer

    No need to put a Word about Southwest Asian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Btw., West Asia don't have the 'pure' African admixture, while the Medittearean especially in West has a lot!
    Not a lot guy. With more than 90% European the distance is huge compared with West Asians. I showed you the example of a non mixed Georgian, and he was closer than any Spaniard to Africa., specially East Africa. Comparing with several Italians and Greeks, he was more or less the same, or showed less similarity. So wrong in your thoughts about Southwest Europe, but not about the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Med vs N. Africa = 0.067 (0.001 closer)
    W. Asia vs N. Africa = 0.068 (0.001 far)

    Med vs E. Africa = 0.117 (0.006 far)
    W. Asia vs E. Africa = 0.111 (0.006 closer)

    North/East Africa (everywhere in North Africa) = West Asian is 0.005 closer

    No need to put a Word about Southwest Asian.
    You ARE ignorant as hell!

    North and East Africans are different folks.
    Just face it that the Medittearean are very close to NORTH Africans, and they even share the same DNA with each other. There's Southwest European DNA in North Africa and there's North African DNA in Southwest Europe!

    Why can't you just accept that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Not a lot guy. With more than 90% European the distance is huge compared with West Asians. I showed you the example of a non mixed Georgian, and he was closer than any Spaniard to Africa., specially East Africa. Comparing with several Italians and Greeks, he was more or less the same, or showed less similarity. So wrong in your thoughts about Southwest Europe, but not about the rest.
    We are talking about the African admixture right?

    As you can see on this map SothWest Europe HAS African admixture, while West Asia don't have any African admixture.

    And please don't start with genetic distances again, because many Europeans are actually West Asian. I mean many Europeans with West Asian roots (R, G & IJ) migrated out of Africa at the same time as the current West Asians did...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    You ARE ignorant as hell!

    North and East Africans are different folks.
    Just face it that the Medittearean are very close to NORTH Africans, and they even share the same DNA with each other. There's Medittearean DNA in North Africa and there's North African DNA in Southwest Europe!

    Why can't you just accept that!
    Because all other Iberian genetic affinities (West, North, N. Atlantic, etc.) overwhelm anything African. Not to mention that the African influences are very ancient and are not meaningful. N. African DNA is also present in many other regions of Europe. Why don't YOU accept the (obvious) facts. Enough codswallop already.

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    You are the only ignorant here who hasn't read the full post to understand why I put this together. Check carefully to get in discussion if you want, because I'll only repeat this one time: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...0/F2.large.jpg

    We were talking about to include E-M78 as Mediterranean, for this reason it was relevant to talk about East Africans, since as you can see the distribution includes East Africa. Also Egypt has 12.5% East African, with one of the individuals scoring more than 20%. So yes, IT'S SIGNIFICANT ACCORDING TO THE DISCUSSION BEFORE YOUR INTROMISSION.

    Got it guy?


    An having little admixture does not make Spaniards closer, since Gerogians have a huge amont of West Asian and almost absent Northern European. Not the case of Spaniards, so stop with the nonsense, impossible they are closer than Georgians and similars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundis View Post
    Because all other Iberian genetic affinities (West, North, N. Atlantic, etc.) overwhelm anything African. Not to mention that the African influences are very ancient and are not meaningful. N. African DNA is also present in many other regions of Europe. Why don't YOU accept the (obvious) facts. Enough codswallop already.
    Which facts? There is NO African DNA in West Asia AT ALL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    You are the only ignorant here who hasn't read the full post to understand why I put this together. Check carefully to get in discussion if you want, because I'll only repeat this one time: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...0/F2.large.jpg

    We were talking about to include E-M78 as Mediterranean, for this reason it was relevant to talk about East Africans, since as youcan see the distribution includes East Africa. Also Egypt has 12.5% East African, with one of the individuals socring more than 20%. So yes, IT'S SIGNIFICANT ACCORDING TO THE DISCUSSION BEFORE YOUR INTROMISSION.

    Got it guy?


    An having little admixture does not make Spaniards closer, since Gerogians have a huge amont of West Asian and almost absent Northern European. Not the case of Spaniards, so stop with the nonsense, impossible they are closer than Georgians and similars.
    SouthWest Europeans are MORE African. FACT!

    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    We are talking about the African admixture right?

    As you can see on this map SothWest Europe HAS African admixture, while West Asia don't have any African admixture.

    And please don't start with genetic distances again, because many Europeans are actually West Asian. I mean many Europeans with West Asian roots (R, G & IJ) migrated out of Africa at the same time as the current West Asians did...

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    This map doesn't lie!


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post

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    But not genetically closer, that's the fact you don't seem to understand. West Asians are much more intermediate population, like it or not. At least, I hope you got the reason why I used the other figures, since I see in the second issue it's impossible we agree with your behaviour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    But not genetically closer, that's the fact you don't seem to understand. West Asians are much more intermediate population, like it or not. At least, I hope you got the reason why I used the other figures, since I see in the second issue it's impossible we agree with your behaviour.
    Cool, whatever you say boy. But you can't hide the fact that SouthWest Europeans have African DNA / GENES directly from Africa!

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    One thing is deny facts, and another one put in order the exagerations about the African ancestry.Spaniards are more than 90% European, and Portuguese are quite near of this (86% aprox). How do you pretend there can be a significant genome similarity with such figures between African and Iberian populations?

    Quote one post where this has been hide as you say. Come on, I'm wainting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    One thing is deny facts, and another one put in order the exagerations about the African ancestry.Spaniards are more than 90% European, and Portuguese are quite near of this (86% aprox). How do you pretend there can be a significant genome similarity with such figures between African and Iberian populations?

    Quote one post where this has been hide as you say. Come on, I'm wainting.
    Which is the same as the rest of Europe. Spaniards average 91% european, just like British, French, Irish, Dutch, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    One thing is deny facts, and another one put in order the exagerations about the African ancestry.Spaniards are more than 90% European, and Portuguese are quite near of this (86% aprox). How do you pretend there can be a significant genome similarity with such figures between populations?

    Quote one post where this has been hide as you say. Come on, I'm wainting.
    I'm not saying that SouthWest Euro's are Africans. According to me they're 100% Europeans, but I just don't understand why people like you deny any geneflow from other parts of the world?
    I don't have anything against you personal. But according to me racial 'purists' are just ridiculous & pathetic folks!


    Why? I don't get. And I don't like that!

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    We haven't deny it man, please read the thread. Being honest, I'm really tired discussing the same things all days with you.

    Most African ancestry in Iberia looks quite old as has been pointed in the post, and does not represent a drastic percent. So as you can imagine, the Genome wide similarity between Spaniards an Africans is very low, much lower than the one showed by more intermediate populations, even if the don't have African ancestry. And yes, you can include West Asians there, even if they don't get such reports.

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    Scandinavians & Eastern Europeans don't deny any gene flow from Turkic people (N & Q folks).
    But you guys deny any gene flow from Africa. Aren't you tired???

    That's why you get so much resistance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Scandinavians & Eastern Europeans don't deny any gene flow from Turkic people (N & Q folks).
    But you guys deny any gene flow from Africa. Aren't you tired???

    That's why you get so much resistance!
    We are talking about genetic distances here, not admixture. A person without african admixture can be closer to Africans than a european with minor admixture, which is the case with West-Asians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    We are talking about genetic distances here, not admixture. A person without african admixture can be closer to Africans than a european with minor admixture, which is the case with West-Asians.
    WHAT??? Dude, you have some serious issues / mental problems.

    READ the name of this thread!!! This thread is all about the AFRICAN ADMIXTURE!!!!!

    "Thread: Autosomal map : African ADMIXTURE (from Dodecad)"


    There's a gene flow detected from NorthWest Africa to SouthWest Europe. FACT!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have modified the map too for Tuscany too. I was the first map on the Tuscan samples from Dodecad members, but it's true that the HapMap TSI is more representative as there are over 100 samples
    The fact that the TSI sample is much larger (102) than the HGDP sample(8) does not necessarily mean that it is more representative of Tuscany as a whole, as the entire TSI sample was taken from one small village outside Florence, and genetic variation does exist within Tuscany. For example, the HGDP sample, (which shows .3% North African) lists the Mediterranean component as 47.8% versus 37.6% in the TSI sample. There are other differences as well.

    The 25 person Zing sample is only based on 13,000 snps so I understand why that would not be factored into the computation. The Henn et al study, however, uses 195,000 snps, which should give a certain amount of confidence. That provides a figure of l.l % for north west African, and again 0 for the sub-Saharan and East African groups.

    In the case of Tuscany then, an approximately 1% figure for North West African seems reasonable.

    However, more generally, I am uncomfortable with a methodology for the making of maps (which are then widely distributed) which picks which studies to include strictly based on sample size. Indeed, I think that barring some generally acknowledged problem with a particular academic study, no such results should be excluded. For me, it calls into question the reliability of the maps in general.

    I

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    SouthWest Europeans are MORE African. FACT!
    What you don't understand is that it does not matter since the major genetic components (West, North, South, N. Atlantic European) dominate in Iberia. As a consequence, Iberians are far, far closer genetically to other Europeans than are West Asians. North Africans cluster nowhere near Iberians. What is the point of harping on a very minor (and essentially ancient) contribution from NW Africa, unless you are motivated by unreasonable / illogical thought processes?
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 18-09-11 at 01:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The fact that the TSI sample is much larger (102) than the HGDP sample(8) does not necessarily mean that it is more representative of Tuscany as a whole, as the entire TSI sample was taken from one small village outside Florence, and genetic variation does exist within Tuscany. For example, the HGDP sample, (which shows .3% North African) lists the Mediterranean component as 47.8% versus 37.6% in the TSI sample. There are other differences as well.

    The 25 person Zing sample is only based on 13,000 snps so I understand why that would not be factored into the computation. The Henn et al study, however, uses 195,000 snps, which should give a certain amount of confidence. That provides a figure of l.l % for north west African, and again 0 for the sub-Saharan and East African groups.

    In the case of Tuscany then, an approximately 1% figure for North West African seems reasonable.

    However, more generally, I am uncomfortable with a methodology for the making of maps (which are then widely distributed) which picks which studies to include strictly based on sample size. Indeed, I think that barring some generally acknowledged problem with a particular academic study, no such results should be excluded. For me, it calls into question the reliability of the maps in general.

    I
    These maps are useful only in a very general sense. Autosomal DNA research is becoming more are more refined by the day and the map figures currently presented are unlikely to hold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    WHAT??? Dude, you have some serious issues / mental problems.

    READ the name of this thread!!! This thread is all about the AFRICAN ADMIXTURE!!!!!

    "Thread: Autosomal map : African ADMIXTURE (from Dodecad)"


    There's a gene flow detected from NorthWest Africa to SouthWest Europe. FACT!
    So??? Any number of people here have stated many times that it does not impact genetic distances / clustering because the admixture is too minor and too ancient. Why is it so hard for you for to grasp this fundamental fact?
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 18-09-11 at 01:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I'm not saying that SouthWest Euro's are Africans. According to me they're 100% Europeans, but I just don't understand why people like you deny any geneflow from other parts of the world?
    I don't have anything against you personal. But according to me racial 'purists' are just ridiculous & pathetic folks!


    Why? I don't get. And I don't like that!

    No one is denying N. African gene flow into Iberia. Have you been selectively tuning out?

    The essential point is that the gene flow is ancient and too insignificant to have any impact on genetic distance and clustering. Autosomally, Spaniards and Portuguese have scores well within the range of other Western European countries. That is abundantly clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Other than Iberia's apparent geographic location which lends itself nicely to a pre-IE LGM refuge, its proximity, or rather distance from the Middle East and Anatolia, suggests North African genetic input since the earliest migrations took place. The word 'diluted' is perhaps condescending but it could explain high R1bpenetration with certain isolated regions suggesting elevated levels of pre-IE haplogroups. African genetic input may include introductions from long before the introduction of Celtic influences to more recent times. We should expect some diffusion from North African Muslim invaders but also remember that a large section of the Iberian population converted to Islam. Portuguese diffusion into Spain is also a factor throughout recent times. Many an Angolan and Mozambican with mixed ancestry have integrated themselves into the Iberian community. The relative strength of the region lies in its heterogeneity, this has provided Iberia with a low-cost labor force. As the endemic increasingly began to resist being exploited by the wealthier classes so more South American and African migrants were being used to fill these basic functions. Roman societies used local servants from surrounding areas, we can expect Iberia to have been no different. These may have been to some extent from North African Roman colonies.
    First of all mixed Africans from the old Portuguese colonies are obviously not a component of the Iberian genome, for obvious reasons. Such individuals are never (or never should) be included in indigenous genetic studies. If they ever are, the research becomes invalid, as has been the case in a handful of ostensibly political motivated efforts - there have been several in Iberia and at least one or two in other areas of Europe.

    Also, there is no evidence suggesting that the Iberian Paleolithic genome had any DNA directly associated with NW Africa. If you take a close look at the autosomal percentages (see Maciamo's comments on this thread) you will realize that practically all African DNA present in Iberia is ancient, and not the result of Muslim invasions or anything else.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 18-09-11 at 01:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundis View Post
    No one is denying N. African gene flow into Iberia. Have you been selectively tuning out?

    The essential point is that the gene flow is ancient and too insignificant to have any impact on genetic distance and clustering. Autosomally, Spaniards and Portuguese have scores well within the range of other Western European countries. That is abundantly clear.
    Ok, now we are getting somewhere!

    I do believe that a gene flow between the Mediterranean countries in Africa & Europe is a natural process. Even 100 Adolf Hitler's together can't stop that. The only 'final' solution is to kill / genocide all Africans, and even then I'm not sure that there will never be any gene flow from Africa!

    There always has been an interaction between the 2 continents and there always will be an interaction between the 2 continents!

    You can also move to the Moon, but I truly believe that Africans will go after you too. I don't know why but they like your kinsmen very much.

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