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Thread: Ukraine's genetics

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    Question Ukraine's genetics



    Hello to all forum members!

    As a newbie, would be grateful for your advice for links to useful info and your personal opinions about genetic history of present and historic populations of modern Ukraine.
    From what I knew before, and also looking through different threads on this forum, it seems to be very complicated, especially taking into account that its south and east were a crossroad of numerous population movements that may have left their genetic legacy. Among the questions that interest me is what genetic differences can be seen nowadays between Western and Central parts of the country, what is the origin of Carpathian populations (boikos, gutsuls, lemkos etc.) in relation to central & northern populations. However, I am not sure there was sufficient sampling of Y and mDNA to know about such regional differences.
    Would be grateful for sharing your thoughts.

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    Hi OlehS and welcome to the forum.

    Ukraine encompasses a vast area and this in a region where very few commercial clients have had their ydna tested. I am not going to list the frequencies I am going to post a distribution map of haplogroups R1a & Q. These two haplogroups combine to form an interesting story. Maybe when I have more time I will elaborate on possible theories on the distributions below.



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    Quote Originally Posted by OlehS View Post
    Hello to all forum members!

    As a newbie, would be grateful for your advice for links to useful info and your personal opinions about genetic history of present and historic populations of modern Ukraine.
    From what I knew before, and also looking through different threads on this forum, it seems to be very complicated, especially taking into account that its south and east were a crossroad of numerous population movements that may have left their genetic legacy. Among the questions that interest me is what genetic differences can be seen nowadays between Western and Central parts of the country, what is the origin of Carpathian populations (boikos, gutsuls, lemkos etc.) in relation to central & northern populations. However, I am not sure there was sufficient sampling of Y and mDNA to know about such regional differences.
    Would be grateful for sharing your thoughts.
    Byzantine patriarch Nicophorus writes that parts of Serbs , Croats ans Caranthanians ( Slovenias ) left Balkans infront of Frankish atacks in IX century and settled in Carpathians in Ukraine . They descendants would be Lemkos , Boiki ,... They all have high I2a1b Din just like Balkans populations . Other name for Boiki is Rusini , and they land was called Red Ruthenia - and Serbian Medieval state was called Raška by Byzantine city Arsa / Ras which was capitol of it . Also in Carpathians from IX century to XIV century especialy in Lviv aeria there was found lot of hill forts atributed to White Croats , who also lived in Poland .

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    [QUOTE=[B]Dorianfinder[/B];380806]Hi OlehS and welcome to the forum.

    Ukraine encompasses a vast area and this in a region where very few commercial clients have had their ydna tested. I am not going to list the frequencies I am going to post a distribution map of haplogroups R1a & Q. These two haplogroups combine to form an interesting story. Maybe when I have more time I will elaborate on possible theories on the distributions below.

    Thanks and looks very interesting indeed! Looking forward on your further elaborations!
    However, if haplogroups data come from citydwellers, I would expect to get a confusing and scewed data, due to their cosmopolitan population. Any data from willagers from different regions?

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    Bodin,
    Thanks for the comments. Yes, from what I know, White Croats were in the region (I actually live in Lviv) but whether settled or just transiently, it is still subject of the debate. With regard of ukrainian Carpathian population (gutsuls in Ukrainian), I would expect them to have a fraction of ancestry yet from pre-IE times. Their customs and appearance (superficially) kind of are suggestive of this hypothesis. It is possible that mountainous population experienced less gene flow that their neighbours on planes. However, I suspect nobody conducted any research on it.
    With regard to a core population of Ukraine (Center-West) , there are hypotheses of some ancestry coming from Trypill'a (Tripolye) population, very probably from Scythians (their northern settlers), maybe Antes, who neighbored to the south, and Sarmatians who also were in the area. Anybody could professionally comment on this?

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    Hi Oleh! I also am interested in Ukraine's current and historical genetics. There seems to be precious little published about this, which is rather strange, given this area's significance. Have you had your DNA tested? My parents are from Halychyna (father from Kolomyja, mother from Lviv and Shchyrets). My own DNA results seem in line with the meager available info. Paternal: I2a Maternal: U5a1b3. Coupled to extant documents these lines go back to the mid-18th c. Is there any scientific DNA research being done in Ukraine re ancient DNA? Any news about Scythian or Sarmatian kurgan burials being analyzed? Or the (admittedly rare) Trypilian inhumations?
    Last edited by razor; 21-09-11 at 16:38. Reason: spelling correction

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Is there any scientific DNA reaearch being done in Ukraine re ancient DNA? Any news about Scythian or Sarmatian kurgan burials being analyzed? Or the (admittedly rare) Trypilian inhumations?
    Razor,
    Thanks for the info.
    Have to say that, to the best of my knowledge, there is no current project in Ukraine on testing ancient DNA from different time peroids, or in current population either. It is a pity, taking into account how much we could learn from such a project. I would be glad to bring up this point to scientists interested in paleogenetics.
    P.S. I have no idea what my DNA carries as such analysis is not yet available here.

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    Hi Dorianfinder,
    I also look forward to your theories (and thank you very much for your most useful caveats re "full genome analysis" on another thread!). It is truly a pity (I fully concur with Oleh) that so little DNA work has been done in Ukraine. For instance, there is an interesting burial ground on the middle Dnister (I forget the name for the moment, but it is dated as nearly co-temporaneous to the well-known Usatovo culture) where archaeologists detected the existence of exogamic practices between this group of Late Trypilians and steppe peoples: the adoption of inhumation by a large Late Trypilian group is itself interesting. Apparently skeletal analysis showed that the males were all "gracile mediterranean" in type, and the females "robust Europoid" from the steppes (with corded ware to boot!). It would be fascinating to have a team as effective as the one which analyzed the Catalonians of the same period put to work here!
    As for Q, we'll wait for your convenience. And thanks again.
    Last edited by razor; 19-09-11 at 20:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OlehS View Post
    Bodin,
    Thanks for the comments. Yes, from what I know, White Croats were in the region (I actually live in Lviv) but whether settled or just transiently, it is still subject of the debate. With regard of ukrainian Carpathian population (gutsuls in Ukrainian), I would expect them to have a fraction of ancestry yet from pre-IE times. Their customs and appearance (superficially) kind of are suggestive of this hypothesis. It is possible that mountainous population experienced less gene flow that their neighbours on planes. However, I suspect nobody conducted any research on it.
    With regard to a core population of Ukraine (Center-West) , there are hypotheses of some ancestry coming from Trypill'a (Tripolye) population, very probably from Scythians (their northern settlers), maybe Antes, who neighbored to the south, and Sarmatians who also were in the area. Anybody could professionally comment on this?
    Thanks for answering , do you know your Ydna haplogroup?
    I found this articles on Net about White Croats in Ukraine , and thought you would be interested:
    http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-3829...o-ukraine.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croatia
    I believe Scythian and Sarmathians ( including Antae )were reaćy great in Ukraine - my oppinion is that main carriors of I2a1b ( old I2a2) were Sarmathians

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    About Q and R1a , I wouldnt be suprised if 10-15% of eastern European R1a is not Slavic , but Altaic (Turkic) -Huns , parts of Scythians ,Avars , Pechenezi , Uzi , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Khazars , Sabiri , Saraguri , Kumani/Polovci , Mongols/ Tatars , parts of Bulgars ,
    ... There is also some Altaic R1a in Scandinavia , also conected with Q .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Thanks for answering , do you know your Ydna haplogroup?
    I found this articles on Net about White Croats in Ukraine , and thought you would be interested:

    I believe Scythian and Sarmathians ( including Antae )were reaćy great in Ukraine - my oppinion is that main carriors of I2a1b ( old I2a2) were Sarmathians
    Bodin, Thanks for the interesting links!
    I agree with your opinion on Sarmathians but extensive dna sampling of Ukrainian population is needed to prove this. By the way, how can I , or others here in Ukraine, check their hg-s if interested?

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    Have a look at footnote 20 of the long English Wikipedia article on haplogroup R1b. It refers to a downloadable (pdf) 2006 Munich Univ. dissertation by Varzari which analyzes, in very interesting fashion, the Ukrainian haplogroups of the village of Rashkove near the Ukrainian-Moldavian border on the Dnister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OlehS View Post
    Bodin, Thanks for the interesting links!
    I agree with your opinion on Sarmathians but extensive dna sampling of Ukrainian population is needed to prove this. By the way, how can I , or others here in Ukraine, check their hg-s if interested?
    Yes there is need of intensive DNA sampling all over East and Central Europe , even Scandinavia , West Europe and North America are bether covered , but there is still a lot of work , genetic is very young and still seak it place in historic science.
    I send my mouth swap to IGENEA in Switzerland ( they send kit on order) ,they charged me about 500 euros for both YDNA and mthDNA tests ( just Google IGENEA and you will find how to do it )

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Have a look at footnote 20 of the long English Wikipedia article on haplogroup R1b. It refers to a downloadable (pdf) 2006 Munich Univ. dissertation by Varzari which analyzes, in very interesting fashion, the Ukrainian haplogroups of the village of Rashkove near the Ukrainian-Moldavian border on the Dnister.
    Razor,

    Thanks a lot, very interesting study with quite unexpected results.
    We need more like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    About Q and R1a , I wouldnt be suprised if 10-15% of eastern European R1a is not Slavic , but Altaic (Turkic) -Huns , parts of Scythians ,Avars , Pechenezi , Uzi , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Khazars , Sabiri , Saraguri , Kumani/Polovci , Mongols/ Tatars , parts of Bulgars ,
    ... There is also some Altaic R1a in Scandinavia , also conected with Q .
    Bodin,

    A question on R1a distribution:
    Looking at the map above on Dorianfinder post, how one can explain an apparent decrease in R1a frequency in the region between Ukraine and European Russia: insufficient sampling, other reasons? I personally find it a bit suspicious.

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    The genetic diversity throughout the region is both regional-specific and tells us of population movements that took place along two major corridors, namely the North-South (I1, Q, N1c1) and the Balkanic passage that also includes the Black Sea west coast. The best way to differentiate between all the noise and diversity is to first look at the genetic admixtures prevalent among the Varangians/Goths from East Scandinavia. HG I seems to split R1a along the Finno-Scandinavian route through to the Black Sea coast. In this swathe one finds appreciably lower levels of R1a and no similar depreciation in HG Q.

    Major Varangian trade-route in red is depicted below, also known as the Volga trade-route.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    The genetic diversity throughout the region is both regional-specific and tells us of population movements that took place along two major corridors, namely the North-South (I1, Q, N1c1) and the East-Tatar/Caucasus passage. The best way to differentiate between all the noise and diversity is to first look at the genetic admixtures prevalent among the Varangians/Goths from East Scandinavia. HG I seems to split R1a along the Finno-Scandinavian route through to the Black Sea coast. In this swathe one finds appreciably lower levels of R1a and no similar depreciation in HG Q.

    Major Varangian trade-route in red is depicted below, also known as the Volga trade-route.


    Actually this explanation doesn't quite work. In the first place there were two major Varangian trade routes: the Volga trade route and the Dnipro trade route (which actually became more important as of the later 10th century): it is in purple on the map. But in either case Oleh's query remains. Why is there a fluctuation on the R1a map from 50+ to 40+ to 50+ in a northeasterly direction? The I1 map does not explain this (the 5% blob is not in the queried area). Perhaps inadequate sampling is the answer?

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    @ razor

    I was referring to the top right-hand corner of the map. The gradual decrease from 15% to 5% is suggestive of settlement patterns along the northern extremity of the Volga trade-route.

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    OK. But that doesn't deal with the issue of the 50-40-50 discontinuity on the R1a map, since the dip and rise occurs in an area where I1 is at 1%, much below the 15 to 5 I1 dip. And the shifts in the I2 map or N map don't fully explain it either (?). But is it really such a big issue? There could be a myriad of reasons for this mini-dip and rise. What difference does it really make if you move from 55% R1a to 47% R1a to 52% R1a? It's pretty solid R1a territory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    OK. But that doesn't deal with the issue of the 50-40-50 discontinuity on the R1a map, since the dip and rise occurs in an area where I1 is at 1%, much below the 15 to 5 I1 dip. And the shifts in the I2 map or N map don't fully explain it either (?). But is it really such a big issue? There could be a myriad of reasons for this mini-dip and rise. What difference does it really make if you move from 55% R1a to 47% R1a to 52% R1a? It's pretty solid R1a territory.
    You can relax, I was only answering OlehS in #15. The Volga trade-route has been a through-fare since links between Scandinavia and the Near East were formed millenia ago.

    The intrusion of HG I into the Volga trade-route is suggestive, nothing more than that. The intrusion of N1c1 from East Scandinavia is also suggestive of diffusion but not on the same scale as HG I. R1a is high in Ukraine no matter where you look, the decrease however small is suggestive as it is positioned along the Volga trade-route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    You can relax, I was only answering OlehS in #15.

    I'm always relaxed (:=)))

    The Volga trade-route has been a through-fare since links between Scandinavia and the Near East were formed millenia ago.

    Certainly.

    The intrusion of HG I into the Volga trade-route is suggestive, nothing more than that.

    Of course. But unfortunately that is not obvious from the Eupedia R1a map, where the Volga trade route goes through the 50+ zone, not through the 40+ zone. I thought that's what had prompted Oleh's question. Though frankly I don't see this as very significant foer the reason stated earlier.

    The intrusion of N1c1 from East Scandinavia is also suggestive of diffusion but not on the same scale as HG I. R1a is high in Ukraine no matter where you look, the decrease however small is suggestive as it is positioned along the Volga trade-route.
    Since I belong to the I2a tribe (with a U5a1 motherline), our R1a assimilants are only of peripheral interest (:=)))

    Carry on, and thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OlehS View Post
    Bodin,

    A question on R1a distribution:
    Looking at the map above on Dorianfinder post, how one can explain an apparent decrease in R1a frequency in the region between Ukraine and European Russia: insufficient sampling, other reasons? I personally find it a bit suspicious.
    I am not realy shore why this decrease hapened . One of possible explanations could be : if Scythians were R1a and Sarmathians I2a1b , than since border betwen Scythia and Sarmathia ( VII - II century BC) was on Don river ( egzacly place where R1a fall from 50% to 40%)and first Sarmathian intrusion was in that region , they probably killed more Scythians ( R1a ) than in other places , also R1a would start retreating toward west infront of Sarmathian atacks . This is one explanation not necesarly true .Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Since I belong to the I2a tribe (with a U5a1 motherline), our R1a assimilants are only of peripheral interest (:=)))

    Carry on, and thanks again.
    What to say except haill Sarmathian brother :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    What to say except haill Sarmathian brother :)
    Let's compare our Y-DNA results, for interest's sake. According to the newer numbers, mine is I2a1b1 (N). The N stands for Ken Nortved's distinction between "North" (=N) and "South" (of the Danube) groups. The difference (it seems) is in two STR markers. At DYS448, N has a value of 20, and S a value of 19. At DYS449, N has a value of 32, and S has 30. Both groups broke off from a parent group, acc. to Nortvedt, about 2,800 years ago. But N and S stand for current locations I think (and not necessarily in a comprehensive way, since he says that the "Russian" group (which includes Belarus and the Baltic states) is primarily S, not N.

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    Mine is I2a1b1 (S), but there is also lot of I2a1b1(N) in Balkans , and that is south of Danube. My mthDNA is X2 , and it is considered that had come from Caucasus . Thank for answering

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