Ukraine's genetics

[OlehS]

I am not realy shore why this decrease hapened . One of possible explanations could be : if Scythians were R1a and Sarmathians I2a1b , than since border betwen Scythia and Sarmathia ( VII - II century BC) was on Don river ( egzacly place where R1a fall from 50% to 40%)and first Sarmathian intrusion was in that region , they probably killed more Scythians ( R1a ) than in other places , also R1a would start retreating toward west infront of Sarmathian atacks . This is one explanation not necesarly true .Thanks for answering

Thanks to all for interesting commentsI With regard to Bodin's quote above, are there any known similarity with distribution of mtDNA HGs?
The importnat point also, when we are talking about present populations, is that the region of Black Sea and Azov Sea steppes was repeatedly and almost totally repopulated, whereaz populations of Central Ukraine and Central Russia (Moscow region) seem to be more informative. And, for clearer picture, one should look primarily at markers from country-folks and not from the cities.

[razor]

A good resource for following the research on Mt DNA is http://www.phylotree.org It not only gives you a constantly updated all-human Mt DNA haplogroup tree, but also has a section listing the articles from which it got its information, most of which are accessible on line for double checking. You are quite right in your final sentence. The company which tested both my ancestral markers DNA, a Canada-based outfit at http://www.genebase.com has clickable info on its home page (you look for "DNA Ancestry" and scroll down to "Indigenous DNA": they list 152 available tested populations. But you have to do your own verifying research. AFAIK there's nothing yet for Ukraine. I don't know where Eupedia got its Ukraine Mt DNA numbers [the "by country section"]. Perhaps someone else (Dorianfinder?) might inform us.

[Knovas]

New autosomal data is available thanks to the Yunusbayev et al. (2011) samples. You can check the Ukranians_Y average here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...COCa89AJ#gid=0

[razor]

Thanks for this, Knovas! Clicking further, I found the mention of new ancient DNA analysis in a recent thesis (not available until August 2012), based on material from southeastern Ukraine (the Dnipro-Donetsk and an unnamed Bronze age kurgan culture) which demonstrates that the population's Mt DNA may still have been largely Eurasian ca. 5000/2000 BCE): haplotype C in all three Bronze Age individuals, and in 3 of the 13 Dnipro Donetsk skeletons. I've posted this information in the Mt DNA section of our forum. We have no male ancestry info yet.

[Knovas]

This is very old razor, don't know if much Ukranians belong to C subclades today. It's clear some Northeast Asian + Southeast Asian is reported between them, but this might be due to haplogroup Q (Y-DNA).

Quite usual to find "surprises" when we deal with ancient DNA found in Europe, I don't think this is much relevant today. However, it's interesting.

[razor]

This is very old razor, don't know if much Ukranians belong to C subclades today. It's clear some Northeast Asian + Southeast Asian is reported between them, but this might be due to haplogroup Q (Y-DNA).

Quite usual to find "surprises" when we deal with ancient DNA found in Europe, I don't think this is much relevant today. However, it's interesting.

Would you know the source of the figures used in Eupedia's "mtDNA by country" table on the home page? There's an "Other" segment for all, which has high figures here and there (the explanation adds that among these could also be C: the "Other" figure for contemporary Ukraine is 6%). One intimation of the 2011 thesis mentioned above is that mt C persisted in Ukraine's steppen population for millenia (apparently the Bronze age individuals were carriers of mutated later versions). Which raises the issue of the time of the changeover etc.) As you say, mostly of historical interest today.

[sparkey]

Would you know the source of the figures used in Eupedia's "mtDNA by country" table on the home page?

Maciamo keeps an incomplete list of his sources here. I'm not certain which, if any, were used for Ukraine, maybe Maciamo can dig up his reference.

[OlehS]

A good resource for following the research on Mt DNA is / It not only gives you a constantly updated all-human Mt DNA haplogroup tree, but also has a section listing the articles from which it got its information, most of which are accessible on line for double checking. You are quite right in your final sentence. The company which tested both my ancestral markers DNA, a Canada-based outfit at \ has clickable info on its home page (you look for "DNA Ancestry" and scroll down to "Indigenous DNA": they list 152 available tested populations. But you have to do your own verifying research. AFAIK there's nothing yet for Ukraine. I don't know where Eupedia got its Ukraine Mt DNA numbers [the "by country section"]. Perhaps someone else (Dorianfinder?) might inform us.

Razor,
Thanks for this info.
I guess, it is still too expensive for rezidents of Ukraine to make such DNA tests. The only hope is for the diaspora in the USA, Canada, Europe, who can reliably trace their origin to particular regions of Ukraine, as in your case. If there would be interest in this, we could learn more. Do you agree?

[Goga]

According to this study - "Y-chromosome Short Tandem Repeat DYS458.2 Non-consensus Alleles Occur Independently in Both Binary Haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405" - Ukraine has 25% of R1b. And Russia 21.4%



here is the link: http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

[Knovas]

That's pretty high in comparison with the percents showed in Eupedia. It's curious that, according to the autosomal results, Ukraine has a lot of West European, wich could be linked to R1b.

[Goga]

That's pretty high in comparison with the percents showed in Eupedia. It's curious that, according to the autosomal results, Ukraine has a lot of West European, wich could be linked to R1b.

Yes, I think the same way!

[razor]

Yes, the figure of 4% in Eupedia seems rather low. This only reinforces the need to do more adequate testing in Ukraine, including its more recent diaspora (as Oleh suggests). As a matter of interest, the results from the village of Rashkove near the Ukrainian-Moldavian border (a sample of 53 reported by Vazari) is: 18.9% R1b (of which 13.2% are M-269), 41.5% R1a1 (M-17), and 20.8% I2a (mostly Dinarics I would assume). The comparative figure among nearby Moldavians (not from the Ukrainian village) is: 16.7% M-269 (sample size 126) and 13% among Romanians (sample size 54).

[Shetop]

Myres et al 2010 study has better sample size for R1b in Ukraine, and it is divided by subclades (xls): A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

[Knovas]

R1b in Russia is showed higher than here too, and the West European is also quite high. The same could be aplied.

[LeBrok]

Myres et al 2010 study has better sample size for R1b in Ukraine, and it is divided by subclades (xls): A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe

Not saying that there is a mistake here, but this is not-passworded MS Excel file and everybody can change data in it, and post it again.
In this case we have to be very careful and sure that the source is kosher.

So far it doesn't say that it was modified.
picture004.jpg

[terranova]

Here is some ancient Trypillian DNA analysis (unfortunately only mtDNA)
iansa.eu/papers/IANSA-2010-01-02-nikitin.pdf

[zanipolo]

was'nt the Ukraine the border of the germanic Peucini tribe ( related to the Bastanae germans) . as ptolemy states from Alexandria.

Beyond the montes Bastanaes ( carpathian mountains ) are the Bastanae, beyond them reside the Peucini, beyond them reside the Gottones and beyond them on the baltic sea are the Venedi.

Does germanic people have R1b and I1 or am I too early to state the R1b