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Thread: L176.2: When and where did it originate

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    L176.2: When and where did it originate



    I was looking around the subclades of R1b, and I was intrigued by haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1b2b (L176.2) and its 2 subclades, R1b1a2a1a1b2b1 (SRY2627) and R1b1a2a1a1b2b2 (L165).
    SRY2627 is found primarily in the eastern and central Pyrenees, and in lower frequencies in Iberia in general (see map). It is also found occasionally in the rest of Western and Central Europe (of note may be Bavaria, with 3%).

    On the other hand, L165 is found primarily in Sweden and Scotland (especially the Outer Hebrides).
    What I find most interesting L176.2 is that, being a relatively deep haplogroup, its 2 subclades are concentrated in these rather distant locations. Maciamo places its origins at 4,200 BP in Northeast Spain/Southwest France, but I would disagree at least in the location (due to L165 being in Sweden and Scotland). What do you think?
    Edit: I seem to have confused Maciamo's charts, where its states "highest frequency" I mistook it for "place of origin". Still, I am very much interested in the origin of this subclades. Again, I apologize for my blunder, hehe...
    Last edited by Asturrulumbo; 17-09-11 at 05:55. Reason: correction

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    The is a new SNP above both L176.2 and M153 this is called Z196, so the new ordering would be:

    P312 -> Z196 -> M153
    P312 -> Z196 -> L176.2


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    Interesting, so we may have a third "big" subclade of R1b-P312 in addition to L21 and U152?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Interesting, so we may have a third "big" subclade of R1b-P312 in addition to L21 and U152?
    Well that and L238 appears to cover a chunk of the P312* found in Scandinavia. From a geographical point of view the current situation (2011) looks like this:

    Z196 -- high levels in Iberia/Southern France
    U152 -- high levels in France/Italy/Switzerland etc.
    L21 -- Ireland and Britain, chunks of France.
    L238 -- Scandinavia

    What's really annoying if you ask me is that neither L176 or M153 were ran in any of recent reports etc. We can see that there are high P312* in different areas but the exact breakdown of this is unknown.

    Of course the above chart is also interesting given the number of new clades discovered under U152 as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    Well that and L238 appears to cover a chunk of the P312* found in Scandinavia. From a geographical point of view the current situation (2011) looks like this:

    Z196 -- high levels in Iberia/Southern France
    U152 -- high levels in France/Italy/Switzerland etc.
    L21 -- Ireland and Britain, chunks of France.
    L238 -- Scandinavia
    Indeed, that's an interesting bit of information. It also helps solving the (by now) fairly large amount of non-U152/non-L21 R1b-P312 which kept appearing in a lot of analyses.

    What's really annoying if you ask me is that neither L176 or M153 were ran in any of recent reports etc. We can see that there are high P312* in different areas but the exact breakdown of this is unknown.
    That is unfortunate indeed.

    Of course the above chart is also interesting given the number of new clades discovered under U152 as well.
    I hope that we will eventually be able to figure out the actual relationship of the P312 clade against each other, because then we might be able to tell a big more about where they originated and how R1b as a whole did spread across Western Europe, and also what pattern of spreading was involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    The is a new SNP above both L176.2 and M153 this is called Z196, so the new ordering would be:

    P312 -> Z196 -> M153
    P312 -> Z196 -> L176.2

    Such is true, and it seems to me quite interesting that Z196 (R1b1a2a1a1b2) has 2 subclades:
    -M153 which is mainly in Gascony and the Basque Country, and in much lesser frequencies in the rest of Iberia
    -L176.2, with 2 subclades:
    -M167 (SRY2627) which, as I said earlier, is in the Cantral&Eastern Pyrenees, etc (see map)
    -L165, which is found in Sweden and Scotland
    What should be made of this, taking into account especially this discordant last subclade?

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    I tried to inject a reminder of the significance of Z196 to the Basque debate (on the thread about "Lack of G2a in Basque," post #95) a couple of weeks ago.

    I also tried to paste in a few explanatory links, there. But the software of this site won't let me post links until I have posted random drivel (or whatever -- but not links) at least ten times. I think I have two to go -- then we can get serious. If need be.

    Anyway, one other pretty significant subset of R-P312* that is part of Z196, but not shown on your diagram, is Ken Nordtvedt's "North-South Cluster." (Millions of western European guys, and their cousins elsewhere.) It's separate from L176.2, and ancestral to M153. Its specific SNP hasn't been identified yet, so it doesn't show up on the ISOGG tree, or on anything at FTDNA (such as the "My Haplotree" chart, or Thomas Krahn's draft tree).

    There is also a "pseudo" NS Cluster identified by Lawrence Mayka that has 11 (instead of 10) at GATA H4, and has 385ab 10-11. There may be other STR indicators for this small (but old) pseudo cluster. Most of us haven't been tested higher than 37 markers, so that's still under investigation. Its SNP, like that for the larger NS Cluster (which has been discussed on forums for several years), remains unidentified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I tried to inject a reminder of the significance of Z196 to the Basque debate (on the thread about "Lack of G2a in Basque," post #95) a couple of weeks ago.

    I also tried to paste in a few explanatory links, there. But the software of this site won't let me post links until I have posted random drivel (or whatever -- but not links) at least ten times. I think I have two to go -- then we can get serious. If need be.

    Anyway, one other pretty significant subset of R-P312* that is part of Z196, but not shown on your diagram, is Ken Nordtvedt's "North-South Cluster." (Millions of western European guys, and their cousins elsewhere.) It's separate from L176.2, and ancestral to M153. Its specific SNP hasn't been identified yet, so it doesn't show up on the ISOGG tree, or on anything at FTDNA (such as the "My Haplotree" chart, or Thomas Krahn's draft tree).

    There is also a "pseudo" NS Cluster identified by Lawrence Mayka that has 11 (instead of 10) at GATA H4, and has 385ab 10-11. There may be other STR indicators for this small (but old) pseudo cluster. Most of us haven't been tested higher than 37 markers, so that's still under investigation. Its SNP, like that for the larger NS Cluster (which has been discussed on forums for several years), remains unidentified.
    So this "North-South Cluster" cluster is identified by STR and not SNP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    So this "North-South Cluster" cluster is identified by STR and not SNP?
    It, and many other "clusters," were identified by shared atypical or "off-modal" STR patterns, several years ago. The SNPs that actually define (i.e. cause) the clusters have, in some cases, been found later -- notably through 1000 Genomes and Walk Through the Y projects. Toward the end of May, 2011 the newly discovered SNP Z196 was found to include the NS Cluster, but not to define it since it also includes several previously known SNPs that aren't part of that cluster.

    There is at least one unidentified SNP (out of 25 or so known) under Z196 that will turn out to define the North-South cluster. So far, FTDNA isn't testing for these SNPs, so we don't know which one it will be. They have to develop the primers -- and there are lots of other haplogroups wanting the primers for their own newly found SNPs. Once the primers are in place, and they add these SNPs to the list they can test, some fair sample of NS Cluster guys will have to get tested (at $29 per chance) -- then wait a few weeks for their results, see if they have guessed right, etc. Until that happens, members of the NS cluster (and of the previously mentioned "Pseudo" NS cluster) are Z196* (L176.2-).

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    It, and many other "clusters," were identified by shared atypical or "off-modal" STR patterns, several years ago. The SNPs that actually define (i.e. cause) the clusters have, in some cases, been found later -- notably through 1000 Genomes and Walk Through the Y projects. Toward the end of May, 2011 the newly discovered SNP Z196 was found to include the NS Cluster, but not to define it since it also includes several previously known SNPs that aren't part of that cluster.

    There is at least one unidentified SNP (out of 25 or so known) under Z196 that will turn out to define the North-South cluster. So far, FTDNA isn't testing for these SNPs, so we don't know which one it will be. They have to develop the primers -- and there are lots of other haplogroups wanting the primers for their own newly found SNPs. Once the primers are in place, and they add these SNPs to the list they can test, some fair sample of NS Cluster guys will have to get tested (at $29 per chance) -- then wait a few weeks for their results, see if they have guessed right, etc. Until that happens, members of the NS cluster (and of the previously mentioned "Pseudo" NS cluster) are Z196* (L176.2-).
    So if I understand correctly, all the members of this "North-South Cluster" are Z196+?

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    Yes, so far, all North-South cluster people tested have been Z196+ L176.2-. What's interesting is that M153 looks like a variant of the North-South cluster.

    We have found a number of SRY2626 (M167) people in Germany. We also are finding that we are finding Z196+ L176.2- M153- people in Germany and Poland. We don't know but I don't think Z196 originated in Iberia despite the preponderance of SRY2627 there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Yes, so far, all North-South cluster people tested have been Z196+ L176.2-. What's interesting is that M153 looks like a variant of the North-South cluster.

    We have found a number of SRY2626 (M167) people in Germany. We also are finding that we are finding Z196+ L176.2- M153- people in Germany and Poland. We don't know but I don't think Z196 originated in Iberia despite the preponderance of SRY2627 there.
    Could it be that there is an SNP that is a descendant of Z196 and an ancestor of of M153 (but not of L176.2)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Could it be that there is an SNP that is a descendant of Z196 and an ancestor of of M153 (but not of L176.2)?
    Sure, Rich Rocca said in May it's probably Z274 -- or something downstream from it (but still above M153). This is my tenth post, so maybe I can post a link to the relevant discussion, next time... Anyway, FTDNA doesn't yet offer a test for Z274.

    Adding to what MikeWWW has just said, about finding Z196+ L176.2- M153- people in Germany and Poland -- there are also Z196+ NS cluster guys with ancestry in Hungary. The Y-search IDs for the first two who tested Z196 (both were positive) are JUH7U and NXP7D.

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    Wow... This could be much more insightful than I initially imagined, to be honest. I found Rocca's hypothetical SNP map you were talking about:

    Quite interesting... What I find is that it (along with many other things) suggests an origin of perhaps not just Z196, but perhaps even all of P312 somewhere around Iberia (?)
    Edit: Alright, that may have been a bit reckless to propose... Now I think about it, it doesn't make too much sense; however, the fact 2 of its subclades peak there does make a point for Iberia being initially penetrated by Pre-Proto-Celtic populations in the Bronze Age

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    Wow... This could be much more insightful than I initially imagined, to be honest. I found Rocca's hypothetical SNP map you were talking about:
    That's the right picture, but an early version of it (before any results had posted from SNP testing at FTDNA). Rocca tweaked it a couple of times within a few weeks, after suggestions from two or three colleagues. It remains much more comprehensive (for Z196) than any "official" tree, because those only show SNPs that have been confirmed by testing, and the tests for these newly discovered SNPs have not yet been offered. We have been led to believe that several are "in the pipeline;" but there was also some expectation that they would be ready in July, and they weren't... nor in August. (This is a lament, not a complaint. The FTDNA lab is very busy, these days.)

    I'll see if I can insert a link to a better version of Rocca's Z196 tree. The "discovery" thread is here:

    http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...rge-p312-snps/

    That discussion ran for some weeks before test results for Z196 began to trickle in, and Vince Tilroe set up a separate thread to display and discuss them:

    http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...6-snp-results/

    The revised -- and as far as I know, current -- version of Rocca's diagram appears on the latter thread on 24 May, post #56. He repeated it in June, post #181, and if it has changed since then I haven't noticed it. I'm going to go ahead and try to post this, lest I spin my wheels any further writing about links that I can't display. If these work, I may have a little more to say on the topic of "when and where," the question that is asked in the subject line of this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    That's the right picture, but an early version of it (before any results had posted from SNP testing at FTDNA). Rocca tweaked it a couple of times within a few weeks, after suggestions from two or three colleagues. It remains much more comprehensive (for Z196) than any "official" tree, because those only show SNPs that have been confirmed by testing, and the tests for these newly discovered SNPs have not yet been offered. We have been led to believe that several are "in the pipeline;" but there was also some expectation that they would be ready in July, and they weren't... nor in August. (This is a lament, not a complaint. The FTDNA lab is very busy, these days.)

    I'll see if I can insert a link to a better version of Rocca's Z196 tree. The "discovery" thread is here:

    http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...rge-p312-snps/

    That discussion ran for some weeks before test results for Z196 began to trickle in, and Vince Tilroe set up a separate thread to display and discuss them:

    http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/top...6-snp-results/

    The revised -- and as far as I know, current -- version of Rocca's diagram appears on the latter thread on 24 May, post #56. He repeated it in June, post #181, and if it has changed since then I haven't noticed it. I'm going to go ahead and try to post this, lest I spin my wheels any further writing about links that I can't display. If these work, I may have a little more to say on the topic of "when and where," the question that is asked in the subject line of this thread.
    The distribution of Z196 seems to be roughly correspondent to the Urnfield Culture... Perhaps it is not the only P312 subclade to come from it (by the way, Z196 was recently added to the ISOGG). SRY2627 being in places such as England makes me wonder if it really did originate in Iberia, and if it did, I think there must have been strong trade lings in all of Western Europe for it to be around so many areas... This would lead me to think that, again, the Urnfield Culture is a prime candidate for its origin...

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    In case there is someone still following this thread on L176.2 who is not following the other threads, note that Z262 and Z198 related to L176.2 are now available to be tested at FTDNA. So far I'm the only positive result for both.

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