Ancient place names in Iberia

[Cambrius (The Red)]

From what I've researched, the frequency of Celtic place names in the west (France, Spain, Portugal and the British Isles) seems considerably higher that what has been recorded in Central Europe (see Sims-Williams, 2006). Perhaps some of the Central European Celtic names became Romanized or were reconfigured through use of vernacular languages over time.

 

[Taranis]

From what I've researched, the frequency of Celtic place names in the west (France, Spain, Portugal and the British Isles) seems considerably higher that what has been recorded in Central Europe (see Sims-Williams, 2006). Perhaps some of the Central European Celtic names became Romanized or reconfigured through use of vernacular languages over time.

Yes, it's true that today you don't find much evidence for Celtic place names in Central Europe (except maybe the Rhineland, such as Neumagen, Remagen, Düren, etc.). I think the problem is a very different one: the Migrations Period creates a huge source of discontinuity in Central Europe. As I mentioned, Ptolemy mentions about 80 towns in Germania Magna, very few of which are thought to still exist today or can be unambiguously identified. The consequence is this: most of these settlements (were they originally Celtic or Germanic doesn't really matter) were subsequently destroyed. You have also to consider that large areas that were Germanic 1800 years ago became Slavicized in the wake of the Migration Period (broadly everything east of the Elbe and Saale rivers). On top of that, you even have the arrival of the (non-Indo-European!) Magyars in the Pannonian basin. So, the effect of typonomic discontinuity is enormous in some places. It should be noted that you have a very similar effect in terms of name discontinuity (though decisively smaller) on much of the Iberian peninsula due to the Moorish period. For instance, you today call the river in Andalusia today 'Guadalquivir' (from Arabic 'Wadi-al-Kebir') instead of "Baetis". The effect is far less pronounced in northern Iberia (due to the relatively negligible Moorish impact), but it's also visible there. But, if you compare place names recorded by Ptolemy versus modern place names, a similar effect of discontinuity is also visible. At that note, there's also a fair bit of typonomic discontinuity on the British Isles. Although many of the towns from the Roman period still exist today, thanks to the Anglo-Saxon invasions there's surprisingly little naming continuity in England. For example, 'Camulodunum' became 'Colchester'.

 

[callaeca]

The lack of L-11*, it is L-11 (x U-106, S-112),i think? Well, 1.- Myers assumes two prominent related for L11, S116 and U106 components that generally distribute West and East of the Rhine river basin respectively, and the Celts have resided ever in the bank west. 2.- the distibution and frequent of all S116 and branches, from Iberia to the Alps and western Poland, to the British Isles and Ireland coincides exactly with the anthropologic stude of Desideri for central Europe and with the expansion bell-beaker that you can see in the map 1.

About this, it would be necessary first to assure etimologies like Bayern/Baiern, called in the antiquity Baibaros, Baiobaros, Bagibare germanized in Baioaria, Baiwaria, Bavaria, Baiuwaren or the old Bainochaîmai, Bonochaîmai assumed in the german language like Boiohaima.

 

[Taranis]

The lack of L-11*, it is L-11 (x U-106, S-112) ? Well, 1.- Myers assumes two prominent related for L11, S116 and U106 components that generally distribute West and East of the Rhine river basin respectively. and the Celts have resided ever in the bank west.;

Sorry, but just no. Celtic presence east of the Rhine is well attested: the Celts didn't completely reside on the west bank.
- Vindobonna (Vienna, Austria)
- Brigetio (Szőny, Hungary)
- Cambodunum (Kempten)
- Boiodurum (Passau)
- The 'Hercynian Forest' and the 'Gabretae Forest' (compare Gaulish 'Gabros', Irish 'Gabhar', Welsh 'Gafr', Breton 'Gavr')
- The Vindelici (including sub-tribes like Brigantes, which are also found in Britain and the Licates)
- The Lech (Licca) river, compare Irish 'Leac', Welsh 'Llech', Breton 'Lec'h' (rock, slab)
- Noric town names such as Gabromagus, Gobanodurum, Lauriacum (all mentioned by Ptolemy)
- The Cotini of the western Carpathians, which are explicitly refered to by Tacitus as speaking Gaulish.

Also, to quote myself from earlier:
Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD records approximately 80 town names in Germania Magna, approximately a sixth of which have readily identifiable Celtic etymologies (Eburodunum, Segodunum, Tarodunum, Celamantia, Carrodunum, Lugidunum).

The Celtic incursion into the Balkans also produced other settlements, as far as the mouth of the Danube:
- Durostorum (Silistra, Romania - also mentioned by Ptolemy)
- Aliobrix (Orlivka, Ukraine)
- 'Vindelia' (localization unclear, but mentioned by Ptolemy in Galatia, Anatolia)
If you do not believe me anything of that, read the Geography of Claudius Ptolemaios.

2.- He says that 'specifically, S116* (xU152, M529) occurrence is maximal in Iberia, whereas the U152 branch is most frequent (20–44%) in Switzerland, Italy, France and Western Poland. Last, the M529 clade is highest (25–50%) in England and Ireland'. It coincides exactly with the anthropologic stude of Desideri for central Europe, with the expansion bell-beaker that you can see in the map 1, and with L-11* that is L-11 (x U-106, S-116) and not to the other way we see it.

I was talking about L11 (without U106, S116), which is clearly absent in Iberia. It does not matter that R1b-S116 (without U106) is found in large concentration in Iberia because it's outgroups are virtually absent in Iberia but found in Central Europe, which in itself proves that a connection with Beaker-Bell is invalid.

EDIT: there is also R1b-Z196 which should be considered, due to which the L11 peak in Iberia looks a lot less clear-cut and obvious than just L11 without U106 or S116.

About this, it would be necessary first to assure etimologies like Bayern/Baiern, called in the antiquity Baibaros, Baiobaros, Bagibare germanized in Baioaria, Baiwaria, Bavaria, Baiuwaren or the old Bainochaîmai, Bonochaîmai assumed in the german language like Boiohaima, i think.

This is wrong. The connection between Bavaria and the Boii is only an indirect one. Much of Bavaria (especially Bavaria proper) was originally inhabited by a different Celtic tribe, the Vindelici. In the 1st century BC, the Germanic Markomanni invaded Bohemia and conquered the Boii. In the migrations period what remained of the Markomanni migrated into modern-day Bavaria. In contrast, Strabo (Book 7, chapters 1,2 and in particular 3) explicitly mentions the Boii as being Celtic. In any case, the word 'Boi-' is Celtic in etymology, compare Irish 'Bó', Welsh 'Buwch', Breton 'Buoc'h' and Celtiberian 'Boustom'. The word in turn is derived from the PIE word for 'cow' or 'cattle'. In the Celtic languages PIE *gw was rendered to *b, where as in the Germanic languages it was rendered to *kw, which is why the English word is 'cow'.

 

[zanipolo]

Also, Ptolemy and Strabo explicitly refer to the lands north of the Danube as the 'deserts' (ie 'deserted areas') of the Helveti and Boii.

Careful when mentioning these 2 as reference to lands, Strabo did his geography from Rome and Ptolemy did it from Alexandria. So when they say beyond this "tribe" or Mountains , they mean a different direction from each other.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Careful when mentioning these 2 as reference to lands, Strabo did his geography from Rome and Ptolemy did it from Alexandria. So when they say beyond this "tribe" or Mountains , they mean a different direction from each other.

A fair point. The Ancients were many times inaccurate in their descriptions and explanations.

 

[Taranis]

Careful when mentioning these 2 as reference to lands, Strabo did his geography from Rome and Ptolemy did it from Alexandria. So when they say beyond this "tribe" or Mountains , they mean a different direction from each other.

Well, yes, but the general relative locations of the tribes are still unambiguous. It's especially unambiguous since Ptolemy deployed a coordinate system. Anyways, the terms "Helvetian Desert" and "Gabreta Forest" are used by Ptolemy in Book 2, chapter 10. The "Gabreta Forest" and "Boii desert" are mentioned by Strabo in Book 7, chapter 1

 

[callaeca]

well I see the distribution of all P-312/S-116 and frequencies. it is clear..

About the etimology of Boii (gr.Βόϊοι) is unclear. Lambert (LG 44) connects it instead with gaul. -bogios ("theme verb. bog- 'frapper'"). Schmidt (KGPN 153) and de Bernardo Stempel (2000:90) with the verbal root ie. *bhei-/*bhoi- 'schlagen, kämpfen' (*bhoy-o-s): cf. phohiio-s-, a Venetic personal name; Boioi, an Illyrian tribe; Boiōtoi, a Greek tribal name. Birkhan (1999:99) *gʷou- "cow" as a basis (*gʷowjeh³-). Anreiter (2000:117-18) does not present etimology to explain BOIODURUM in lower Bavaria ('city of the Boii' (?)).

 

[Taranis]

well I see the distribution of all P-312/S-116 and frequencies. it is clear..

As I said, when you look at the presence of the subclade R1b-Z196 in Iberia, it gets clear that the peak in Iberia is not that clear as it would appear at first. I mean, if you take over all R1b in Western Europe, you get peaks in the Basque country and an arc extending northwards along the Atlantic façade towards Wales and Ireland. You can note however that this peak completely disappears if you take U152, L21 and U106 separately. The situation in Iberia becomes also less obvious when you take R1b-Z196 into the picture, which after all, is quite frequent amongst the Basques.

About the etimology of Boii (gr.Βόϊοι) is unclear. Lambert (LG 44) connects it instead with gaul. -bogios ("theme verb. bog- 'frapper'"). Schmidt (KGPN 153) and de Bernardo Stempel (2000:90) with the verbal root ie. *bhei-/*bhoi- 'schlagen, kämpfen' (*bhoy-o-s): cf. phohiio-s-, a Venetic personal name; Boioi, an Illyrian tribe; Boiōtoi, a Greek tribal name. Birkhan (1999:99) *gʷou- "cow" as a basis (*gʷowjeh³-). Anreiter (2000:117-18) does not present etimology to explain BOIODURUM in lower Bavaria ('city of the Boii' (?)).

Well, my point is that a Celtic etymology for the tribal name is viable. Also, as mentioned there is plenty of evidence for Celtic typonomy in ancient Bohemia (town names like Eburodunum, Celamantia, Meliodunum and Eburum, which are all mentioned by Ptolemy in his geography, as well as geographic features like the Gabretae forest). Also, as mentioned the Italian and Pannonian Boii were undoubtably Celtic, and from that perspective I find the idea that the Bohemian Boii were something else - for no apparent reason other than the ad-hoc assumption that they must not have been Celtic - doubtful.

Regarding "Boiodurum", the second name element is unambiguously Celtic (compare Divodurum, Durocorterum, Durotinctum).

 

[callaeca]

It does not explain the earlier celtisation of the Iberian Peninsula, without the presence archaeological of external population movements (the last discontinuity detectable in the western Iberian was, how I have said, in the ends of the Calcolithic), with a great linguistic barrier to the south of France (complex aquitan-iberian), that in Urnfield times, whether you like it or not, spreads from Occitania to Andalusia.

It does not explain the inscription J.1 LUKOBO NERABO, written over VIII-VII dC (similar to the callaecian god name LVGOVBO, LUCVBO, cantabrian LVCVBO and the callaecian tribal name NERII), synchronously when appears the Hallstatt in Central Europe.

It does not explain how the Culture of 'Cogotas I' (1700-1000 b.C.) and Cogotas II from this initial settlement in Vettonia get the Plateau Superior, that it distinguishes oneself to the contact with the Iberian and Aquitanian urnfield culture (celtiberians). The term Celtiberi appears in accounts by Diodorus Siculus, Appian and Martial who recognized intermarriage between Celts and Iberians:

'Why do you call me brother, which I descend from Celts and from Iberians and I am a citizen of the Tagus?' (Martial).

What means for you Pyrinees in Herodotos?

About the ethnical Boii, it does not explain the oldest names Bainochaîmai, Bonochaîmai to design Bohemia or if they are the sames that we look in Italy and its migration to Dacia (60-40 dC). Remeber that Boioi was an Illyrian tribe too like Boiōtoi a Greek tribal name. There was other Boii in Aquitania.

 

[Taranis]

It does not explain the earlier celtisation of the Iberian Peninsula, without the presence archaeological of external population movements (the last discontinuity detectable in the western Iberian was, how I have said, in the ends of the Calcolithic), with a great linguistic barrier to the south of France (complex aquitan-iberian), that in Urnfield times, whether you like it or not, spreads from Occitania to Andalusia.

Actually, the assumption that the Iberian penninsula was Celticized earlier does not make any sense, especially, as I pointed many times over, you have the survival of non-Indo-European languages in this region. Also, the claim that Urnfield expanded into Andalusia is completely false. Urnfield influence only expanded into Catalonia, and as a result it is utterly impossible to explain Iberian influence in Andalusia with Urnfield. The Iberians, Basques and Tartessians were all part of the Atlantic Bronze Age, which pretty much shows that this was a linguistically non-homogenous area.

It does not explain the inscription J.1 LUKOBO NERABO, written over VIII-VII dC (similar to the callaecian god name LVGOVBO, LUCVBO, cantabrian LVCVBO and the callaecian tribal name NERII), synchronously when appears the Hallstatt in Central Europe.

Are you refering to Tartessian inscriptions? Well, I have to tell you that these, with high probability do represent a completely unrelated, as of yet undeciphered (and most probably non-Indo-European) language. Also, 'Lukobo Nerabo' is not what is written there, instead 'LoOKoOBoONIIRABoO' Koch's (2009) idea that Tartessian was a Celtic language was innovative, but it is completely false and it makes assumptions about the script which are totally untenable. By the way, I'm not the only one who thinks that:

The inscriptions are written in a variant of the Palaeo-Hispanic scripts (p. 203–208), which are semisyllabic. Alphabetic signs for vowels (a, e, i, o, u), resonants (m, n, r, ŕ, l) and sibilants (s, ś) are distinguished from syllabic signs for stops plus vowel (Pa, Pe, Pi, Po, Pu etc.). Stops are only divided according to their place of articulation (P: labial, T: dental, K: tectal), not to sonority (voiced, voiceless). No word dividers are used. A typical feature of Tartessian is the use of extra vowel signs usually accompanying syllabic signs with the same vowel, e.g. Po+o. Thus the Tartessian script resembles an intermediary between semisyllabic and alphabetic writing. Some cases of disagreement occur, though, e.g. Ko.o.ŕ.Pe.o (J.53.1)—interestingly always Ce +V—and rarely no extra vowel is written after a stop, e.g. Tu.n.?i.i.te.s.Pa.a.n (J.53.1).

It should be clarified from the outset that a system like this—hardly suitable for the denotation of an Indo-European language as it is—leaves ample room for interpretation.

A closer look at orthography and phonetics reveals a number of inconsistencies, even if Koch's linguistic analysis is followed as far as possible. Thus, reconstructed Proto-Celtic (short) */e/ is taken to be variously written e, i and even ii, cf. i.ś */eχs-/ 'out of' (J.1.1), n.i.i.r.a.Po.o */nerabo/ 'belonging to the Neri' (J.1.1 – sic! for -abo is the feminine dative plural ending, thus the nominative plural should be */Nerās/). An ad hoc assumption of a phonetic change is sometimes visible. And the stem vowel of the o-declension fluctuates between o and a.5

As you can see, it is far more plausible to assume that Tartessian was a non-Indo-European language. This, of course, has far-reaching consequences, especially also for the Stelae People hypothesis, because we would not expect a non-Indo-European people in the core area of the Beaker-Bell Culture if said Beaker-Bell Culture was Indo-European.

It does not explain how the Culture of 'Cogotas I' (1700-1000 b.C.) and Cogotas II from this initial settlement in Vettonia get the Plateau Superior, that it distinguishes oneself to the contact with the Iberian and Aquitanian urnfield culture (celtiberians). The term Celtiberi appears in accounts by Diodorus Siculus, Appian and Martial who recognized intermarriage between Celts and Iberians:

As I said, this is completely incorrect. You have a massive discontinuity with the great upheavals of the 13th century BC, and this is the most likely insertion point for Celtic languages onto the Iberian peninsula.

About the ethnical Boii, it does not explain the oldest names Bainochaîmai, Bonochaîmai to design Bohemia or if they are the sames that we look in Italy and its migration to Dacia (60-40 dC). Remeber that Boioi was an Illyrian tribe too like Boiōtoi a Greek tribal name. There was other Boii in Aquitania.

As I said before, Celtic place names are attested in Bohemia (mentioned multiple times by me now) and even as far north as Silesia (Lugidunum, Carrodunum). Also, by the time that classical Antiquity became fully aware of Central Europe, Celtic presence in Central Europe was already in decline. Strabo explicitly mentions that the Boiian lands were ravaged by the Cimbri in the 2nd century BC, and that they were subsequently conquered by the Marcomanni in the 1st century BC. But to say that there was no Celtic presence what so ever is blatantly wrong, and it creates unsolvable problems. As I mentioned, there are multiple borrowings of Celtic words into Germanic which almost always predate Grimm's Law, in particular the Celtic tribal name 'Volcae' was the root word for the Germanic word for foreigner, 'walha-' (compare 'Wales', 'Wallonia', 'Wallachia') and the Gaulish word 'Marcos' (steed) was also borrowed (compare English 'Mare', German 'Mähre', Swedish 'Märr'). What is far more educative is however the Germanic word for 'iron', which was also borrowed from the Celtic word for 'iron' into Proto-Germanic:

Gaulish "Isarnos"
Old Irish "Íarn"
Modern Irish "Iarann"
Scottish Gaelic "Iarann"
Welsh "Haern"
Breton "Houarn"

Anglo-Saxon "Isen"
English "Iron"
Frisian "Izer"
Dutch "Ijzer"
German "Eisen"
Danish "Jern"
Icelandic "Járn"
Norwegian "Jern"
Swedish "Järn"
Gothic "Eisarn"

From the archaeological perspective, iron-working arrives with the (Proto-Germanic) Jastorf Culture in the 6th century BC from the Hallstatt area. From that perspective, I don't see how the Hallstatt Culture was not Celtic. This is one of the reasons why I think that a two-core model for the Celtic languages during the Bronze Age (Q-Celtic in the northern Atlantic Façade, P-Celtic in Central Europe) is necessary for explaining the patterns that we see.

 

[callaeca]

I do not see what Zeidler want proppose (i think nothing), and what he says is very contradictory, because he acepts syllabic signs for stops plus vowel Pa, Pe, Pi, Po, Pu as P labial + vowel, then the lecture correct is n.i.i.r.a.Po.o, a feminine word linked with the callaecian tribe Nerii, and?: cf. ARABO COROBELICOBO TALVSICOBO where you see this same alternance feminine/masculine.

I don't see a criticism, for example, in the anthroponimic system.Then what is LOºKOºBOº ?...well..it is LUCUBO or LUGUBO. Have you other proposse about it?

And Zeidler (he follows the Fco. Villar way) says:'Nevertheless, it is a strong vote for a Celtic solution to the problem of Tartessian, and future research will not be able to avoid this approach'.

There are not, I insist, discontinuity from the end of Calcolithic to the roman times. Examples please...where do you see discontinuity?

Is it incorrect the Cogotas I and II culture?..no, no, Taranis. Can you explain it, please?

Can you explain too the names Bainochaîmai, Bonochaîmai?

 

[Taranis]

I do not see what Zeidler want proppose (i think nothing), and what he says is very contradictory, because he acepts syllabic signs for stops plus vowel Pa, Pe, Pi, Po, Pu as P labial + vowel, then the lecture correct is n.i.i.r.a.Po.o, a feminine word linked with the callaecian tribe Nerii, and?: cf. ARABO COROBELICOBO TALVSICOBO where you see this same alternance feminine/masculine.

I don't see a criticism, for example, in the anthroponimic system.Then what is LOºKOºBOº ?...well..it is LUCUBO or LUGUBO. Have you other proposse about it?

Well, it's exactly what he meant with 'ad-hoc sound changes'. The Gallaecian version is "Lugobo", but the Tartessian word is 'Lokobo'. This would imply a shift from *u > *o in Tartessian. Likewise "Niirabo" would imply a shift from *e > *ii in Tartessian. Yet, as Zeidler correctly points out, in Koch's interpretation this not only yields *ii (which would be expected if this was a regular sound change) but instead variably also *e or *i. There is no regularity in these purported sound changes, and hence the (far more plausible) explanation is that "LOºKOºBOº" is just a random Tartessian word of unknown meaning. Also, Koch himself says that the Tartessian script is the oldest of the native writing systems of the Iberian penninsula, and as Zeidler points out, it is hardly suitable for an Indo-European language at all. For all purposes, the most logical thing to assume is that Tartessian was non-Indo-European.

And Zeidler (he follows the Fco. Villar way) says:'Nevertheless, it is a strong vote for a Celtic solution to the problem of Tartessian, and future research will not be able to avoid this approach'.

Well, for reasons I stated above, in my opinion the Celtic hypothesis of Tartessian can be firmly carried to the grave. With it, the purported 'ancient Celticity' of Iberia (ie, dating far back into the Chalcolithic) can be firmly ruled out as well, suggesting instead that the Celtic languages arrived only inside the Bronze Age context.

Also, consider what Zeidler says further down in the article:

Written sources do show a Celtic element in the Iberian Peninsula as early as the sixth or fifth century BC, but this is late enough to allow for an Atlantic as well as a Central European origin of Proto-Celtic. The results from historical linguistics are so far not decisive.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Well, it's exactly what he meant with 'ad-hoc sound changes'. The Gallaecian version is "Lugobo", but the Tartessian word is 'Lokobo'. This would imply a shift from *u > *o in Tartessian. Likewise "Niirabo" would imply a shift from *e > *ii in Tartessian. Yet, as Zeidler correctly points out, in Koch's interpretation this not only yields *ii (which would be expected if this was a regular sound change) but instead variably also *e or *i. There is no regularity in these purported sound changes, and hence the (far more plausible) explanation is that "LOºKOºBOº" is just a random Tartessian word of unknown meaning. Also, Koch himself says that the Tartessian script is the oldest of the native writing systems of the Iberian penninsula, and as Zeidler points out, it is hardly suitable for an Indo-European language at all. For all purposes, the most logical thing to assume is that Tartessian was non-Indo-European.



Well, for reasons I stated above, in my opinion the Celtic hypothesis of Tartessian can be firmly carried to the grave. With it, the purported 'ancient Celticity' of Iberia (ie, dating far back into the Chalcolithic) can be firmly ruled out as well, suggesting instead that the Celtic languages arrived only inside the Bronze Age context.

Also, consider what Zeidler says further down in the article:

The more I examine Celtic issues the more I believe that Celticity advanced on two fronts contemporaneously: the Atlantic Facade (Western Iberia to the British Isles) and Central Europe (Alpine regions). It may be fair to say that there are actually two Celtic cradles.

 

[zanipolo]

The more I examine Celtic issues the more I believe that Celticity advanced on two fronts contemporaneously: the Atlantic Facade (Western Iberia to the British Isles) and Central Europe (Alpine regions). It may be fair to say that there are actually two Celtic cradles.

i find it difficult to understand how there was 2 celtic cradles that spoke the same language. logically , one would say there is 1 cradle which spread to areas.

There is a group of scholars that do say that the cradle of celtic was on the atlantic and spread eastward, but this is still only "speculation".

Previously mentioned, the welsh word for spade was PAL , while I know the Venetian word is PALA. so what do we make of this , pure coinsidence or is there an association of celtic words ranging from the british isles to the alps. Is there an Iberic celtic word for spade or ..............

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

i find it difficult to understand how there was 2 celtic cradles that spoke the same language. logically , one would say there is 1 cradle which spread to areas.

There is a group of scholars that do say that the cradle of celtic was on the atlantic and spread eastward, but this is still only "speculation".

Previously mentioned, the welsh word for spade was PAL , while I know the Venetian word is PALA. so what do we make of this , pure coinsidence or is there an association of celtic words ranging from the british isles to the alps. Is there an Iberic celtic word for spade or ..............

Two cradles where a variety of Celtic languages spread in two separate regions - just a theory.

In Spanish the word for spade is espatula. In Portuguese it's pa. Some Celtic words in Portuguese that come to mind are: britar (to break rocks) - check Citania de Briteiros in N. Portugal - and broa (a type of rustic bread). Most modern languages have only a few Celtic influences, usually in countries / regions that once had a large population of Celtic speakers.

 

[Taranis]

Two cradles where a variety of Celtic languages spread in two separate regions - just a theory.

Well, the basic idea is that P-Celtic languages developed in Central Europe and subsequently spread into Aremorica and Britain in the iron age, whereas Q-Celtic languages (which simultaneously to the P-Celtic languages) survived and developed independently in Ireland and Iberia. The main issue is, Gaulish and Brythonic have more in common than just the *kw > *p shift. There's a number of other common 'Britanno-Gallic' sound laws which are absent in both the Goidelic languages and in Celtiberian. What should be added are two other details: from what little is known about the Celtic languages in the east (Noric and Galatian) they were both also P-Celtic.

There is also another strong argument, in my opinion, that this *kw > *p shift is a development that occured in the East (rather than suggesting it happened in Atlantic Gaul and Britain and then spread to the east) is the fact that this also occured in some of the Italic languages (Osco-Umbrian) and in Greek. This suggests that there was a common language contact (superstrate?) between the three language families (some time between the 12th and 8th century BC) that triggered this common sound shift. Therefore, an Alpine / Central European origin for the *kw > *p shift in the Celtic languages seems far more probable.

In Spanish the word for spade is espatula. In Portuguese it's pa. Some Celtic words in Portuguese that come to mind are: britar (to break rocks) - check Citania de Briteiros in N. Portugal - and broa (a type of rustic bread). Most modern languages have only a few Celtic influences, usually in countries / regions that once had a large population of Celtic speakers.

The Breton and Welsh word for 'spade' is 'pal'. In Welsh, the word has the additional meaning of 'puffin'. In Scottish Gaelic the cognate is 'calag'. The Proto-Celtic word is, as a result, reconstructed as *kwalo-.

How this relates with the Romance languages, I'm not sure off the top of my head.

 

[Asturrulumbo]

I still think the "Celtic cradle" was around Central Europe, although earlier than previously thought: It was previously associated with the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, but it now seems to me that it was somewhat earlier, the early phase of Proto-Celtic may have been around 1500 BC, while its definitive split (such as perhaps *kw > *p in Gallo-Brittonic) may have happened until around even 1000 BC (by which time it probably extended from Moravia to Iberia to the British Isles)...

In Spanish the word for spade is espatula. In Portuguese it's pa. Some Celtic words in Portuguese that come to mind are: britar (to break rocks) - check Citania de Briteiros in N. Portugal - and broa (a type of rustic bread). Most modern languages have only a few Celtic influences, usually in countries / regions that once had a large population of Celtic speakers.

It's not "estpátula", but pala (which comes from Latin pala, the same is probably true for the Portuguese term). Espátula means... spatula (possibly an Italian loanword?)

 

[zanipolo]

I still think the "Celtic cradle" was around Central Europe, although earlier than previously thought: It was previously associated with the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures, but it now seems to me that it was somewhat earlier, the early phase of Proto-Celtic may have been around 1500 BC, while its definitive split (such as perhaps *kw > *p in Gallo-Brittonic) may have happened until around even 1000 BC (by which time it probably extended from Moravia to Iberia to the British Isles)...

It's not "estpátula", but pala (which comes from Latin pala, the same is probably true for the Portuguese term). Espátula means... spatula (possibly an Italian loanword?)

As time goes by , I feel that a lot of western europe was gallic ( gaulish ) people, from vienna, through northern Italy and southern and central germany, switzerland and all france ( early bronze age) . they traded with the britsh isles and exchanged loan words due to commerce forming a gallo-brittonic "dialect". The Iberian celtic section would have come later.

spatola is the Venetian word.
There appears to be no Italian word for spatula.....I looked up 2 dictionaries .......strange ........maybe I need new dictionaries.

 

[Carlos]

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pala

Etimología: del latín pala, con el mismo significado, y esta síncopa de pagela, de pangere, "fijar", del protoindoeuropeo *peh₂g-. Compárese el francés pelle o el portugués pá


http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espátula

I do not know if these palas and espátulas to which they refer. I'm a mess.