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Thread: Who are Hungarians?

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    Who are Hungarians?



    Nations in Panonia before Hungarian settling :
    1. In V century BC Herodotus mentions Sigini north of Danube - they had Median suit ( armor of metall plates ) and ponnie horses that was realy small so they couldnt be rided but was only used to pull chariots . He say they are Median colony . They origins remains mistery .
    2. During V century Panonians - tribe of Illyrians conqueres Panonia, that is named by Illyrian word pan that probably means - moisture , swamp - so both tribe and aeria were called by swamps that were numerous around big rivers like Tisza , Danube , Sava , Sereth ,...
    3. In IV century comes the Celts , but they were asimilated , and took Illyrian languague , aldo leaving significant impact
    4. Taurisci Celtic tribe conquers Panonia around 279 BC , but Panonians reclaimed they independence
    * Both of Celtic settling waves probably carried R1b in significant amounts , but some of R1a is also posible , because they are conected with Boii that conquered Slovakia at same time , and Northern Celtic tribes like Boii and especially Lugii seems to had a lot of R1a ( there was R1a in Czech 2.500 years ago )
    5. In 80 BC there was first found Sarmathian artefacts in Panonia - probably spreading of Sarmathian empire ( in I century they took taxes of Cotini - celtic tribe in Czech and Slovakia)
    * I believe Sarmathians were I2a1b
    6. In 35 BC Panonia was conquered by Rome
    7. 6-9 AD great rebelion of Illyrian and Panonian tribes , Romans transfered groups of Illyrians ( Panonians are Illyrians to ) to Thracia and Dacia , and parts of Dacians and Thracians in Illyrikum and Panonia - new tribes were formed
    8. Emperor Trajan ( 98 -117) alowed large groups of Yazigi ( Sarmathians) to settle betwen Tisza and Danube rivers . These Yazigi were mentioned like separate nationality even in Avar Khaganate
    9. 380. Panonia was taken by Huns
    10. 455. Huns were defeted by rebeled aliance of Germanic nations led by Gepids. Like leaders Gepids took Hunic lands in Panonia
    * Gepids probably had Scandinavian haplogroups like all Gots - I1 , I2b , R1a and R1b
    11. Around 530 Langobards take west Panonia
    * Langobards also had Germanic I1 , I2b , R1a and R1b, they couldnt left significant impact
    12. 568 Avars conquering Gepidi , and they alies Langobards runing away from them in Italy

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    13. Avars settled masses of Slavs in Panonia and surounding lands
    * Slavs were mainly R1a , and I wave of Avars J2
    14. Avars also settled masses of Bulgar ( Hunic ) tribes - Utriguri and Kutriguri there was 50.000 of Bulgars and 20.000 of Avar wariors in that time Avar army , so it could give us idea of numbers of nations
    15. Avars formed one tribe of prisoners from raids in Illyria during VI century and give them freedom - make them new Avar tribe
    16.In 600. AD there was batle at Titel hill Avars against Byzantinians , and Byzantinians won and writed down number of prisoners : 3000 Avars (20%), 8000 Slavs ( 56% ) and 3500 Gepids (24%). Avars had that tribe made of Illyrians , and Under name of Gepids were probably allof nations before Gepids , maybe Sarmathians were counted under Slavs because they took they languague.
    17.In VIII century there was another wave of Avar settlers from east - these new settlers had Mongolic features and strong haplogrop P which is showen in some island areas in Croatia where the parts of this wave of Avars later go during turmoil in khaganat
    18. Around 800 Franks conquered Khaganate , but they didnt settle there , instead they formed vassal Slavic kingdoms of Balathon and Nitra ( mainly in Slovacia ). Bulgarian tribes rebeled against Avars and joined all teritories east of Tisza to Bulgaria ( Balkans)
    19.Byzantium call Hunarians to atack Bulgaria in 895 , and they do , but Bulgars call Pechenegs and they conquer Hungarian lands , pushed by Pechenegs Hungarians take Panonia , there was no clashes with Slavs - they just accepted Hungarian rule

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    HUNGARIANS BEFORE SETTLING IN PANONIA
    Since V century BC Hungarians are gradualy descending from Ural mountain - where are Udmurti who have most simillar basic languague to Hungarian . They are part of Hunic tribal aliance , during period under Huns they adopted Hunic ways of life ( or maybe even before under Iranic influence they words for horse and horse equipment are Iranic )- horsmenship , archery , Tatar stake - raw meat wormed under horse sedle , drinking of horse blood - for hormons that would give them courage in battle , kumis , Turkic religion Tangrinism , shaving hair exept three bairds ,... They could get they name Madyar either same as Mansi from Uralic word meaning " one that can speack , understanable" , or by one of Atilla sucesors Muageris-Mugel(528-530) that ruled over Onoguria ( it is comon practise in Hunic and Turkic tribes to name nations after rulers - Kutriguri , Utriguri,Osmanli- Ottomans ,Seldjuks,... ). Constantinos Porphirogenetos says they old name was Sawartoi asfaloi - that could mean conection with Turkic tribe of Sabiri .After Hunic colapse they were conquered by Khazar Empire , there they mixed a lot with Alans ,legendary founder of Hungarians Magor maried ,during hunt in Pontic steppes, Dulo , daughter of Alan prince.Madyar words card and vert for armor and sword are Alanic . They ruler was given title Kudun by Khazar Khagan , but by 860 they are independent from Khazars . 862 -they first raids in west Europe . 881 three tribes of Khazar called Kabirs rebel against Khazar khagan and forming "aliance of 10 tribes / arows" - Un Guri ( Ugari , Hungars) with seven Madyar tribes: Medyer , Yene , Ker , Kesi,Nyen , Taryan and Kirt-Dyarmat. These aliance had conquered Panonia 895 AD

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    LATER SETTLINGS
    1) Bela IV (1235-1270 ) Hungarian king neaded aliance in his stugle against nobility - they asked more power , he wanted more power for himself . He sends monks to find Old Madyars - that has left in old lands before coming in to Panonia , and they have found them around river Kama , they could understand they languague , they worshiped natural forces . But when he wonted to christianize them and settle them in Hungary , Mongols under Gengis -khan attacked they lands and kill them all , so monks found only empty land .
    Sucesor of Gengis -khan, Batu-khan ruler of West ulan ( part ) of Mongolian land atacked Russians and they vassal Kumani / Polovzi , because Mongols wanted Kuman pastures north of Black sea. 1240 he conquered Kiev . Kumans were on the run toward west , and Bela IV( Bela is Illyrian name from belus-war ) in need of suport against nobility accepted them in Hungary . Mongols give him ultimatum to surender Kumans he didnt and they attacked him . Hungarian nobility killed Kuman king Kutun , and Kumans escaped in Branichevo ( today east Serbia ) .1241 on Muha mongols beaten Hungarians , and in winter crossed frozen Danube , Bela IV escaped but they captured his royal stamp and his priests and use them to call people to get out of hiding places .
    when people come out they killed all mans and raped the womans . After that jelous mongol womans killed Hungarian womans , and Mongol boys used Hungarian childs as target in they practice of archery . In 1242 Greta Khan died and Batu-khan gone back in Mongolia over Dalmatia , Serbia and Bulgaria , to took his place in tron fights . They burned everything they could , including food , so starvation comed after them , it is estimated Hungary in 1240 had 2 million population and one million died in that year .
    Bela IV settled new wave of Kumans on deserted lands - they were settled from Pesht ( part of capitol Budapesht - in that times Budim and Pesht were two towns ) to today Hungarian border with Serbia .They descendants are Paloci ( from Slavic name for Kumani Polovci which would mean "halfling , of mixed origins" ) , they languague was spocken up to XVIII century . Kumans probably had a lot of Slavic R1a
    2) During Turkish conquest lot of Serbs were settled in east Hungary , also lot of Croatian pesants were removed from feuds in Croatia which were under Turkic attacks and brought on estates of they feudals in west Hungary( that wasnt conquered by Turks and Slovenia

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    So I wondered would it be possible using this data ( and other if someone could provide ) to determine which old nation brought which haplogroups and how many ?

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    I thought Hungarians are from origin Turkic folks mixed with Iranic (Alanians) and Germanic tribes. And later mixed with the natives of Central Europe (who in turn also were mixed with Germanic tribes) !

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    I was told that the hungarians came from the hunnic people and these hunnic where scythians.

    Since hungarian language does not have any of the finnic-ugric liguistic traits, but purely only ugric, is there a way to eliminate either the scythians or sarmatians from this?
    If finnic and Ugric cannot be seperated , then the hungarians would have come from eastern caspian area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    I thought Hungarians are from origin Turkic folks mixed with Iranic (Alanians) and Germanic tribes. And later mixed with the natives of Central Europe (who in turn also were mixed with Germanic tribes) !
    Yes there was lot of mixing in god old times . Thanks for answering

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I was told that the hungarians came from the hunnic people and these hunnic where scythians.

    Since hungarian language does not have any of the finnic-ugric liguistic traits, but purely only ugric, is there a way to eliminate either the scythians or sarmatians from this?
    If finnic and Ugric cannot be seperated , then the hungarians would have come from eastern caspian area
    Yes Madyars were part of Hunic tribal union , but not necesarly Huns . Huns were not Scythian they were probably same as Xiongnu in chinese sources
    Hngarian languague has 50 words in common with Fins ( but that are the main words - parts of body , family memebers , basic food , ... and gramatic rules that are most common with Udmurts - thats why languague is Ugro-Finic) , about 100 Turkic words that cant be conected with later Ottoman influence , and almoust all words conected wirh horsemenship are Iranic .
    I didnt understood part about excluding Sarmathians or Scythians , I believe Madyars mixed with both

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Yes Madyars were part of Hunic tribal union , but not necesarly Huns . Huns were not Scythian they were probably same as Xiongnu in chinese sources
    Hngarian languague has 50 words in common with Fins ( but that are the main words - parts of body , family memebers , basic food , ... and gramatic rules that are most common with Udmurts - thats why languague is Ugro-Finic) , about 100 Turkic words that cant be conected with later Ottoman influence , and almoust all words conected wirh horsemenship are Iranic .
    I didnt understood part about excluding Sarmathians or Scythians , I believe Madyars mixed with both

    sorry, but professors of linguistics say the fiinic in hungarian is minimal (basically nothing ), that why it only referred to ugric language and not finno-ugric

    Language family Uralic



    Writing system Latin alphabet (Hungarian variant)

    Hungarian (magyar nyelv listen (help·info)) is a Uralic language, part of the Ugric group.



    http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hungarian.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    sorry, but professors of linguistics say the fiinic in hungarian is minimal (basically nothing ), that why it only referred to ugric language and not finno-ugric

    Language family Uralic



    Writing system Latin alphabet (Hungarian variant)

    Hungarian (magyar nyelv listen (help·info)) is a Uralic language, part of the Ugric group.



    http://www.omniglot.com/writing/hungarian.htm
    That is egzactly what I said - 50 words is minimal

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    Since there is little interest in this subject , maybe this will increase it . According to Target Map researches Hungarians have greatest average penis size in Europe , exzact numbers could be founded in they sitece , and I would give only map:
    Bez naslova.jpg

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    Hungarians are a good example to prove that there's not always a correlation between linguistics and genes.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    Since there is little interest in this subject , maybe this will increase it . According to Target Map researches Hungarians have greatest average penis size in Europe , exzact numbers could be founded in they sitece , and I would give only map:
    Bez naslova.jpg
    You are funny guy. I understand you are simply asking for opinions, and I give my observations that unfortunately contradict most of your own.
    A lot of Hungarians I think are in denial that they are of some genetic relationship to the Hunnic force that established itself in Pannonia during the great migrations period and gave the name to the modern country.

    If the Y-Hg information concerning studies on MODERN Hungarian population genetics are correct (they are posted on this very site..) I think that the "Hungarians" have no detectable Hunnic ancestry whatsoever.

    What happened to your people was, the last major homeland of continental Celts or Celticized Rhaetians found themselves trapped in a large region that includes parts of modern Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Austria.

    These Celts were overwhelmed with enemies on all sides and did not have a defensible perimeter with Germans and Nordics pressing south, Roman armies pushing North, large but fairly lethargic and cautious Slavic populations pushing west, and to the far west heavily settled Gaul with the only other Celtic populations they could potentially seek aid or shelter from assimilated by the Romans into heavily controlled Civitas with no unsettled lands. To the Southeast, there are powerful and warlike Romanized Free-Dacians, Carpi, Illyrians, and massive numbers of Eastern Gothic populations flooding in.

    As the Hunnic forces arrived into Pannonia, the Celts/Rhaetians/Boii would have probably long since effectively collapsed under the weight of a 360 degree battlefield of hostile alien populations. I think its was Strabo who describes the Rhaetians fleeing to Pannonia to join the Boii and them being militarily wiped out by Romanized Dacians / "The Romans Shepards". Fairly, the Continental Celts in this area were so completely and desperately surrounded by enemies at this point that they could not hope to survive culturally intact any more that the Goth tribal remnant in the pripet marsh could survive the successive Hunnic incursions.

    The reason you see in Romanians, Czechs, Slovakians, Hungarians a roughly constant 20% (1 out of every five modern male citizens) of R1b-M269 I think is attributable to the fact that so many of the Boii/Rhaetians or fragments of continental celtic tribes who were outside of the dubious safety of the Alps, simply adopted the newly dominant culture as each population traded off power/control in this region.
    You- strangely - may have a point about your speculation that some of the R1a in Hungarians could have been Celtic due to the Tocharian (male) europid mummies wearing in some cases scots/irish clan-like plaid clothing and all testing R1a. Perhaps this style was at one point found among all europid populations, or perhaps a lot of the modern 'Hungarian' R1a could be a Tocharian-style 'Celt' population that was lost once it was culturally destroyed and absorbed by asiatic steppe peoples.

    I do NOT think it is possible however for R1a Hg, even clearly Europid SNP like M458 to have been a factor in Eastern Gothic, Gepid, Heruli, Lombardic populations as you speculated, due to the vast numbers of these Eastern Goths who migrated into and became absorbed into popultions of modern Western Euro nations, that later become Northern Italy, Spain, France, the low countries and later Norman-conquered Britain..
    These Goths were so numerous that the main combat force in north-central France that finally defeats, at the expense of great casualties, the Hunnic forces, were primarily all Eastern Goths - INCLUDING THE 'ROMAN LEGION' involved which was staffed with Eastern Goth soldiers. These are the large portion of Goths who made it out from the steppes of what is today South Ukraine a few generations earlier, without submitting to the Huns.
    There is such meager R1a of any sort in all these countries that the Goths brought major populations into that it really does not seem to me plausible that this was a significant or indigenous element of the Gothic Y-dna.

    To put it bluntly, the Hungarians of modern times were populations who had already submitted to earlier conquering or rising tribal populations in this same region, and had already accepted a fairly flexible policy of adopting/shedding language and culture from whoever overran the area.
    The modern Hungarians are-
    the Celtic remnants who by now probably know of no celtic language or culture anymore, the Free Dacians, Illyrians, Carpi, the Romanized Dacians (who would by this time consider themselves ethnically seperate from the Free Dacians), along with Alani fleeing the Huns, portions of Gothic tribes who got caught behind the Hunnic lines of conquest, possibly some other Caucasus populations that might still identify with Sarmatian or Getic origins..

    The one thing that all of these rather disparate populations did gain in common was that to function/live under the yoke of the Huns required the use of either Hunnic, Gothic, or probably both to survive. So, over the span of 75 years+/- and multiple generations, those who survived the Huns had done so by adopting their language, their culture, and understanding how to navigate their relatively brutal customs.

    The genetic/ancestral 'Huns' of Pannonia - IF Y-dna population surveys of Modern Hungarian males are accurate, tend to indicate that the Gepids/Heruli etc.. ethnically cleansed all, or close to all, genetic 'Hunnic' males in Pannonia at the end of, or during, their final siege of the last Hunnic stronghold after the battle of Nedao.

    The Goths would have good reason to do this, as any Asiatic/Hunnic populations left alive in Pannonia would very likely act as a fifth column for a eventual Hunnic force coming to avenge the loss of a entire army to the Goths, the next fighting season. The Huns did NOT consider non-ethnic Hun populations who became their foederati to be 'brothers', and a non-ethnic Hun would never be treated like one of their own tribe/ancestry. You were only a meatshield to be expended in war on behalf of the Huns, if you were not genetically Hunnic.

    Thus, it would be very easy for the Goths to know who to spare and who to ethnically cleanse, given not only the Asiatic phenotype but also the status that village or population was held in by the Hunnic host.

    The Y-dna results of Hungarian males show that they are a Haplogroup composite genetically of exactly the populations who we KNOW fell to the Hunnic conquest of Pannonia, and that effectively no ancient Hg 'O' or 'Q', let alone Hg 'N' exists to suggest that a asiatic, turkic, hunnic or even magyar/mongol paternal line ancestry exists in even a tiny % the modern population.

    It may be that at one time, even the "Hungarians" themselves were wise to this game, and effected this claim to 'Hun' ancestry not by mistake but for defensive 'deterrence'. A population that never rose to evict its Hunnic overlords and had basically consigned itself to its lot as vassals of the brutal Huns, and later was liberated by a chance rebellion among some Eastern Germanic Goths who grew tired of this oppression, would not be very safe when other neighboring populations look greedily on their lands, property, women or valuables, instead they might be seen as a weak or 'easy mark' by the next super-power tribe to invade or come to power in the area.

    By adopting the claim to genetic descent from the 'Huns', who even if hated were famous for their brutality and vicious warfare, this may have been a tactic for the former Hunnic vassals to make themselves appear more fierce and deter others from moving in on their territory. The fact that the Hunnic Vassals spoke a form of Hunnic, and knew the generalities of the culture and society all-too-well, it would not be hard to go from the Huns former vassals tribes left behind in Pannonia after their overlords were dispatched at long last, to laying claim to being 'The Huns',
    in hopes this would induce others to leave them alone....
    Last edited by pipinnacanus; 13-12-12 at 03:57. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    You are funny guy. I understand you are simply asking for opinions, and I give my observations that unfortunately contradict most of your own.
    A lot of Hungarians I think are in denial that they are of some genetic relationship to the Hunnic force that established itself in Pannonia during the great migrations period and gave the name to the modern country.

    If the Y-Hg information concerning studies on MODERN Hungarian population genetics are correct (they are posted on this very site..) I think that the "Hungarians" have no detectable Hunnic ancestry whatsoever.

    What happened to your people was, the last major homeland of continental Celts or Celticized Rhaetians found themselves trapped in a large region that includes parts of modern Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Austria.

    These Celts were overwhelmed with enemies on all sides and did not have a defensible perimeter with Germans and Nordics pressing south, Roman armies pushing North, large but fairly lethargic and cautious Slavic populations pushing west, and to the far west heavily settled Gaul with the only other Celtic populations they could potentially seek aid or shelter from assimilated by the Romans into heavily controlled Civitas with no unsettled lands. To the Southeast, there are powerful and warlike Romanized Free-Dacians, Carpi, Illyrians, and massive numbers of Eastern Gothic populations flooding in.

    As the Hunnic forces arrived into Pannonia, the Celts/Rhaetians/Boii would have probably long since effectively collapsed under the weight of a 360 degree battlefield of hostile alien populations. I think its was Strabo who describes the Rhaetians fleeing to Pannonia to join the Boii and them being militarily wiped out by Romanized Dacians / "The Romans Shepards". Fairly, the Continental Celts in this area were so completely and desperately surrounded by enemies at this point that they could not hope to survive culturally intact any more that the Goth tribal remnant in the pripet marsh could survive the successive Hunnic incursions.

    The reason you see in Romanians, Czechs, Slovakians, Hungarians a roughly constant 20% (1 out of every five modern male citizens) of R1b-M269 I think is attributable to the fact that so many of the Boii/Rhaetians or fragments of continental celtic tribes who were outside of the dubious safety of the Alps, simply adopted the newly dominant culture as each population traded off power/control in this region.
    You- strangely - may have a point about your speculation that some of the R1a in Hungarians could have been Celtic due to the Tocharian (male) europid mummies wearing in some cases scots/irish clan-like plaid clothing and all testing R1a. Perhaps this style was at one point found among all europid populations, or perhaps a lot of the modern 'Hungarian' R1a could be a Tocharian-style 'Celt' population that was lost once it was culturally destroyed and absorbed by asiatic steppe peoples.

    I do NOT think it is possible however for R1a Hg, even clearly Europid SNP like M458 to have been a factor in Eastern Gothic, Gepid, Heruli, Lombardic populations as you speculated, due to the vast numbers of these Eastern Goths who migrated into and became absorbed into popultions of modern Western Euro nations, that later become Northern Italy, Spain, France, the low countries and later Norman-conquered Britain..
    These Goths were so numerous that the main combat force in north-central France that finally defeats, at the expense of great casualties, the Hunnic forces, were primarily all Eastern Goths - INCLUDING THE 'ROMAN LEGION' involved which was staffed with Eastern Goth soldiers. These are the large portion of Goths who made it out from the steppes of what is today South Ukraine a few generations earlier, without submitting to the Huns.
    There is such meager R1a of any sort in all these countries that the Goths brought major populations into that it really does not seem to me plausible that this was a significant or indigenous element of the Gothic Y-dna.

    To put it bluntly, the Hungarians of modern times were populations who had already submitted to earlier conquering or rising tribal populations in this same region, and had already accepted a fairly flexible policy of adopting/shedding language and culture from whoever overran the area.
    The modern Hungarians are-
    the Celtic remnants who by now probably know of no celtic language or culture anymore, the Free Dacians, Illyrians, Carpi, the Romanized Dacians (who would by this time consider themselves ethnically seperate from the Free Dacians), along with Alani fleeing the Huns, portions of Gothic tribes who got caught behind the Hunnic lines of conquest, possibly some other Caucasus populations that might still identify with Sarmatian or Getic origins..

    The one thing that all of these rather disparate populations did gain in common was that to function/live under the yoke of the Huns required the use of either Hunnic, Gothic, or probably both to survive. So, over the span of 75 years+/- and multiple generations, those who survived the Huns had done so by adopting their language, their culture, and understanding how to navigate their relatively brutal customs.

    The genetic/ancestral 'Huns' of Pannonia - IF Y-dna population surveys of Modern Hungarian males are accurate, tend to indicate that the Gepids/Heruli etc.. ethnically cleansed all, or close to all, genetic 'Hunnic' males in Pannonia at the end of, or during, their final siege of the last Hunnic stronghold after the battle of Nedao.

    The Goths would have good reason to do this, as any Asiatic/Hunnic populations left alive in Pannonia would very likely act as a fifth column for a eventual Hunnic force coming to avenge the loss of a entire army to the Goths, the next fighting season. The Huns did NOT consider non-ethnic Hun populations who became their foederati to be 'brothers', and a non-ethnic Hun would never be treated like one of their own tribe/ancestry. You were only a meatshield to be expended in war on behalf of the Huns, if you were not genetically Hunnic.

    Thus, it would be very easy for the Goths to know who to spare and who to ethnically cleanse, given not only the Asiatic phenotype but also the status that village or population was held in by the Hunnic host.

    The Y-dna results of Hungarian males show that they are a Haplogroup composite genetically of exactly the populations who we KNOW fell to the Hunnic conquest of Pannonia, and that effectively no ancient Hg 'O' or 'Q', let alone Hg 'N' exists to suggest that a asiatic, turkic, hunnic or even magyar/mongol paternal line ancestry exists in even a tiny % the modern population.

    It may be that at one time, even the "Hungarians" themselves were wise to this game, and effected this claim to 'Hun' ancestry not by mistake but for defensive 'deterrence'. A population that never rose to evict its Hunnic overlords and had basically consigned itself to its lot as vassals of the brutal Huns, and later was liberated by a chance rebellion among some Eastern Germanic Goths who grew tired of this oppression, would not be very safe when other neighboring populations look greedily on their lands, property, women or valuables, instead they might be seen as a weak or 'easy mark' by the next super-power tribe to invade or come to power in the area.

    By adopting the claim to genetic descent from the 'Huns', who even if hated were famous for their brutality and vicious warfare, this may have been a tactic for the former Hunnic vassals to make themselves appear more fierce and deter others from moving in on their territory. The fact that the Hunnic Vassals spoke a form of Hunnic, and knew the generalities of the culture and society all-too-well, it would not be hard to go from the Huns former vassals tribes left behind in Pannonia after their overlords were dispatched at long last, to laying claim to being 'The Huns',
    in hopes this would induce others to leave them alone....
    M458 ( L260) has been proven to have began its existance in modern day southern Poland.....they are still there today. What where they in the ancient times needs questioning.

    The goths invaded the roman empire to flee from the Huns....it was the huns who destroyed the goths in the east.


    does any hungarians show samoedic alleles?........if so , then they are from the urals

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    M458 ( L260) has been proven to have began its existance in modern day southern Poland.....they are still there today. What where they in the ancient times needs questioning.
    With whom or where it originated, we can say that it is near absence levels within modern populations that Eastern Gothic populations settled in the West and integrated into the populations in large pct. Thus, we can conclude the Eastern Gothic tribal populations would be a poor candidate for R1a Hg.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    The goths invaded the roman empire to flee from the Huns....it was the huns who destroyed the goths in the east.
    The Goths were initially defeated, some were made vassals, and the body of the rest fell back from south Ukraine to as far as western europe, and eventually.. a fews days from the English Channel, finally crushed the Huns.

    The Huns and later on the Mongols had a system that worked... until their opponents became too familiar with it. Gothic People had served under arms / defected from the Huns for a long time, and understood the flag signal system they used, they learned their strengths and weaknesses, and their tactics.. Once this was used to formulate strategy by Gothic forces who had previous exp against them, it was turned against the Huns.
    The Muslims in Egypt later on do the same exact thing to Mongols in Levant/Egypt who were initially successful against persian or arab muslims, but later are routed by the Egyptian forces who have survived past contacts with the Mongols and reverse engineered their tactics.

    The Roman empire had the same problem once enlisting Non-Romans as actual Roman Soldiers instead of only native foederati. This led to the Teutonwald massacre as Germanic officers that had been trained with Roman tactics and educated in their military knowledge turned their experience on the Roman troops.


    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    does any hungarians show samoedic alleles?........if so , then they are from the urals
    Are you claiming evidence of this? It seems hard to explain no Ugric or asiatic Y-dna in the modern population except a tiny pct of N that would not be unexpected in Britain or other non-ugric populations. Some tiny portion of illegitimate male Hunnic offspring not recognized as Hunnic even by the Huns, would have been overlooked or spared by the Gepids, Heruli, etc..
    This does mean that this 1% among modern Hungarians is relevant to the modern Hungarian gene pool or national identity overall, anymore than the .5 in Britain is significant to English / British national identity or general genetics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldritch View Post
    Hungarians are a good example to prove that there's not always a correlation between linguistics and genes.
    Interesting question: sorry if i'm late here!
    Since a long time I'm astonished thinking in a population speaking an Ungaric language of supposed Uralian geographical origin, language of a supposed elite and that had not given its Y genes to the conquered land - I have a book by more than an author (Hungarians, Finns) directed by Péter HAJDù 6
    and what do I read: that the first anthropological component of Proto-Hungarians was of the so called "cro-magnoid-A" stock (I supposed the "cromagnoid' from the steppes, according to the russian naming, more mesocephalic than dolichocephalic, considered as present among the first Indo-Europeans by someones, BUT ALL THE WAY AN EUROPOID TYPE; some more 'nordic-like types' were mixed with these types - only at the mergins ofBronze Age and Iron Ages they would have mixed with Saïanians and Tungids of slightly mongoloid types, giving birht to the Uralian mix - The quasi absence of Y-N and the strong presence of Y-R1a among the present day Hungarians could be partly explained by the fact that the europoid branch was politically dominant over the siberian mongolid one? after that Hungarians ancestors knew a complicated history with more and more mixings but the crossigns that resulted were more on the europoid types (the same first ones plus some mixtures from the West Turkic tribes of east caspian and anatolian physical affiliations (vaguely 'mediterraneans' and 'indo-afghans' types + 'alpine-like and dinaric-like types') - arrived in Europe these Hungarians found again the same mixture even if not with the same proportion: more and more europoid - the partially mongoloid Avars took the strong side for a while but there more foreign look could have hasted there emimination at some stage of History - maybe their elite was more on the Y-Q or side? I don't know - but the almost absence of Y-N is perhaps not a so big surprise??? just a suggestion


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    what I would say is that the ugrian language of Hugarians could have been kept by the elite and imposed progressively to the tribes which tried to join them as time passed, changing slightly but remaining an ugrian language, even if genetic package of the whole population was changing bit by bit at the same time; so even if the current population of Hungary contains an autochtonal (smile, when we know History) or rather a pre-Hungarian part, the early 'europeinization' of firts Hungarians was already in place before reaching the Carpathian Bassin and we are not obliged to imagine a complete and massive replacement of language "in situ" in Hungary imposed to a numerically predominent autochtone population -

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    Hey guys! I really enjoyed reading you. I'm Hungarian and my paternal line is from Hungary as well. The first mention of my family dates back to 1335. We are from the region called 'Rábaköz' western part of Hungary.

    PARTLY OFF TOPIC: I'm in the haplogroup J2b* (M205-,M241-,Z574+), and I have 2 distant matches 57-58/67 with Armenian persons, but they told me, their paternal line is from Russia, and they migrated to Armenia only in the XVIII. century. I read in scientific papers that in C-EU there are many J2b, like 6% among Czechs, but non of these papers tested M241 or M205 I think. On FTDNA J haplo project there are only a dozen of J2b* samples, and their distribution is really widespread. There are some British, Ashkenazi Jewish, and also Armenian, Turkish, Bulgarian, Indian, Qatari, Hungarian. I know of two other J2b* besides this group 1 is from Tuscany (1000 genomes) and 1 is from the States, paternal line Russian. I have many theories in my mind, the strongest one of them is my forefather could be a steppe nomad who had his origins in modern day Russia. In a genetic study a Hungarian group of scientist analyzed 100 Hungarian men from South of Hungary, and 97 ethnic Hungarian Szeklers from Romania. 4% of the South Hungarian samples turned to be J2b and 7,2% of the Szeklers. I read in eupedia that maybe some J2b migrated from the Caucasus to the Volga-Ural region during the Bronze Age. What do you think of my theory (and also about J2b in C-EU, and the Eurasian steppe)?

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    The conclusion of the study whic I referred.

    SNPs M35 M78 P15 M253 M170 P37 M267 M172 M102 M67 M92 M89 LLy22g M9 M45 M17 M269
    HUN (100) 1 9 3 8 3 13 3 8 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 30 15
    SZEK(97) 1 8.2 5.2 16.5 0 5.2 10.3 3.1 7.2 0 1 0 1 0 3.1 18.6 19.6

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    Haplogroup FTDNA RaskóHUN RaskóSIC HUN SIC Csángó SUM %
    C 1 1 4 6 0,61287
    E 21 10 9 19 10 6 75 7,660878
    G 23 3 5 15 4 6 56 5,720123
    H 1 11 1 13 1,327886
    I1 25 8 16 27 5 3 84 8,580184
    I2 52 16 5 49 10 27 159 16,24106
    J 22 16 21 29 14 18 120 12,25741
    L 1 1 0,102145
    N 8 1 3 5 17 1,736466
    Q 6 3 1 1 3 14 1,430031
    R1a 82 30 18 79 16 22 247 25,22983
    R1b 50 15 19 61 21 16 182 18,5904
    T 3 1 1 5 0,510725
    SUM 294 100 97 294 88 106 979 100

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    Above are the results of two studies' and the Hungarian FTDNA project's data about the proportion of Y-DNA haplogroups in the Hungarian population.

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    hun haplo.jpg
    Vágó-Zalán Andrea - PhD thesis 2012 http://teo.elte.hu/minosites/ertekez...go-zalan_a.pdf
    n=230

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    Hungarians are predominantly Slavic but have sizeable Celtic and southern proto-European influence ( R1b +I2a). They are predominantly R1a with an average of 25-30% but certain regional frequencies as high as 60%! They have about 15-20% Celtic R1b and another 15-20% Balkans I2a, those are the 3 dominant Hungarian patrilineal groups, with R1a being highest in virtually all tests/surveys. One cannot classify them as purely "Slavic" though as they have a hodge-podge of those three main groups with always 10-15% more R1a. Some studies even suggest R1a may be 35%.

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    I think it would be of some worth having more deep downstream SNPs for Y-R1a, because I believe a lot of them (even if very close) are of other steppic tribes and not from clearly identified Slavs (but I think they also absorbed a lot of Slavs also) - the R1a were Ugrians and I-Eans as a whole but I don't exclude some turkic or turkicized tribes - concerning the first Ugrians I recall Hungarian scholars (right or wrong) in ancient times considered the ancestors of Ugrians as a pure caucasoid groups of "cro-magnoids" (their naming: I suppose a partially bracycephallized cro-magnoid group not too far from 'borreby' types) and "proto-europoids" (surely something close to 'proto-nordic' types and 'brünns' remnants, according to external look if not to pure genetics -

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