Was R1b-U106 in Scandinavia&Frisia caused by Tumulus Culture proto-Celtic migrations?

[Goga]

According to wikipedia there's for about 9.40% of R-U106 in Ukraine! Is this a typo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...a_.28R-U106.29

[Asturrulumbo]

According to wikipedia there's for about 9.40% of R-U106 in Ukraine! Is this a typo?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogr...a_.28R-U106.29

I think 0.94 seems more likely, so most probably a typo.

[Goga]

I think 0.94 seems more likely, so most probably a typo.

According to this study - "Y-chromosome Short Tandem Repeat DYS458.2 Non-consensus Alleles Occur Independently in Both Binary Haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405" - Ukraine has 9.4% of it. M405 = U106. If this is true it will change all my theories.
A little adaption of some data can cause very big changes in human migration theories!



here is the link: http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

[Asturrulumbo]

According to this study - "Y-chromosome Short Tandem Repeat DYS458.2 Non-consensus Alleles Occur Independently in Both Binary Haplogroups J1-M267 and R1b3-M405" - Ukraine has 9.4% of it. M405 = U106. If this is true it will change all my theories.
A little adaption of some data can cause very big changes in human migration theories!



here is the link: http://www.cmj.hr/2007/48/4/17696299.htm

Really? A sample size of 32 individuals wouldn't change my theories, considering it was done in 2007, and by now would have been taken into account if it weren't overridden by more ample studies. But if you have doubts, ask Maciamo, it is he who made the U106 distribution map I'm taking analyzing currently:

[MOESAN]

*p> *kw in Italic only occurred in the second syllable, this suggests to me that it was either by Celtic influence or an independent change, and thus the hypothetical Proto-Italo-Celtic language would still probably maintain the PIE *p (see also the maintaining of *p in Lusitanian)

sorry, I'm lost:
some of yours speak about a shift like: *p- >> *kw- ; was it not the contrary: *kw- >> *p- ??? (the contrary semas not so evident

germanic languages seam to me being *kw- languages, isn't it? (*hw- after the first germanic shift) -
some people said that numerals was not the most reliable elements in the languages genealogy: for their commercial use? just a question, I'm not a specialist...
thank for answer

[MOESAN]

I would say that U106 is around 30% Celtic in Britain. Any more would not explain why it's completely absent in Wales while U152 (undoubtedly Celtic), which is much less frequent in Britain, does have some frequency in Southern Wales.
Edit: Actually, now I think about it, it could be more: Wales is dominated by R1b-L21, and I believe that haplogroup arrived a bit later, with the Atlantic Bronze Age. And U152, too, probably arrived to Britain even later (with the Hallstatt culture), so it may be as high as 50%, perhaps. Of that, maybe half or a bit more arrived during the initial Tumulus expansion and the rest with the Hallstatt Culture.

I answer you and the 2 or 3 previous post on this thread
Y-I1- and Y-R-U106 appears to me to have been linked yet a long time ago around Denmark and after in Western Scandinavia - maybe it's some I1 bearers that begn the first shift in consonnants - These 2 HG's are regularly found in almost every germanic speaking population even if it's not so regular in the East: Sweden -
in the making of the continental Celts, the Rhine river could very easily have been a boulevard Northward/Southward under influence of Beaker People, mixing autochtonous populations and some kinds of Western Indo-European speakers (Who?) - influence of RU152 on North could have begun even before the La Tène period, on some R-L21 and others P-312 cousins - some osmose could have taken place between R-U106 and R-U152 West of the Rhine (escluding for the most and the 'Corded' R1a and the I1) and North-East of it's sources at a small scale (Bavaria-Austria-N-E-Switz.) - I think to the Belgii (true Celts linguistically speaking, for I guess) and their birth -
in Britain some R-U152 are of Viking or Continental Germanic origin but the most of them I believe is from Belgii stock (as a few R-U106) - E-NE Scotland presents too much R-152 for it would be of Viking or Germanic origin too - movements from Eastern-France Gaule and Celtic Switzerland are mentionned about the Iron Age too, in Fifeshire, the same region or very near (known for their mesocephaly, and some 'borreby' + 'dinaric' like people - for Wales, we can yet envisage a few Belgii or acquainted people of Gaule : in a survey about 90 men of North Wales it's been found 7,5% of R-U152 and 9,2% of R-U106: some could be of Belgii stock, some of a little Germanic influence (the 2, I mean) - in every case, it's obvious that Western Germanic people carried more R-U106 than I1, the Eastern augmented by Scandinavina descent more I1 than U-152, and little more R1a too - Then, I beleive that there was 'celtic' R-U106 (with some R-U152) in Western Austria but that the bulk of there today R-U106 is of Germanic origin (Folkswanderung), after all they have 12% of I1 as Belgium and Switzerland where more data could show big differences bewteen previously germanized and not germanized districts (before modern language replacement...
just my opinion

[MOESAN]

I answer you and the 2 or 3 previous post on this thread
Y-I1- and Y-R-U106 appears to me to have been linked yet a long time ago around Denmark and after in Western Scandinavia - maybe it's some I1 bearers that begn the first shift in consonnants - These 2 HG's are regularly found in almost every germanic speaking population even if it's not so regular in the East: Sweden -
in the making of the continental Celts, the Rhine river could very easily have been a boulevard Northward/Southward under influence of Beaker People, mixing autochtonous populations and some kinds of Western Indo-European speakers (Who?) - influence of RU152 on North could have begun even before the La Tène period, on some R-L21 and others P-312 cousins - some osmose could have taken place between R-U106 and R-U152 West of the Rhine (escluding for the most and the 'Corded' R1a and the I1) and North-East of it's sources at a small scale (Bavaria-Austria-N-E-Switz.) - I think to the Belgii (true Celts linguistically speaking, for I guess) and their birth -
in Britain some R-U152 are of Viking or Continental Germanic origin but the most of them I believe is from Belgii stock (as a few R-U106) - E-NE Scotland presents too much R-152 for it would be of Viking or Germanic origin too - movements from Eastern-France Gaule and Celtic Switzerland are mentionned about the Iron Age too, in Fifeshire, the same region or very near (known for their mesocephaly, and some 'borreby' + 'dinaric' like people - for Wales, we can yet envisage a few Belgii or acquainted people of Gaule : in a survey about 90 men of North Wales it's been found 7,5% of R-U152 and 9,2% of R-U106: some could be of Belgii stock, some of a little Germanic influence (the 2, I mean) - in every case, it's obvious that Western Germanic people carried more R-U106 than I1, the Eastern augmented by Scandinavina descent more I1 than U-152, and little more R1a too - Then, I beleive that there was 'celtic' R-U106 (with some R-U152) in Western Austria but that the bulk of there today R-U106 is of Germanic origin (Folkswanderung), after all they have 12% of I1 as Belgium and Switzerland where more data could show big differences bewteen previously germanized and not germanized districts (before modern language replacement...
just my opinion

I add that for me I1 bearers could have been very rare South of the mouths of Rhine (outside the Celtic influence) - even in the clades of R1b there are differences in the Netherlands when we see at the regions bordering Maas and Rhine.

[zanipolo]

I answer you and the 2 or 3 previous post on this thread
Y-I1- and Y-R-U106 appears to me to have been linked yet a long time ago around Denmark and after in Western Scandinavia - maybe it's some I1 bearers that begn the first shift in consonnants - These 2 HG's are regularly found in almost every germanic speaking population even if it's not so regular in the East: Sweden -
in the making of the continental Celts, the Rhine river could very easily have been a boulevard Northward/Southward under influence of Beaker People, mixing autochtonous populations and some kinds of Western Indo-European speakers (Who?) - influence of RU152 on North could have begun even before the La Tène period, on some R-L21 and others P-312 cousins - some osmose could have taken place between R-U106 and R-U152 West of the Rhine (escluding for the most and the 'Corded' R1a and the I1) and North-East of it's sources at a small scale (Bavaria-Austria-N-E-Switz.) - I think to the Belgii (true Celts linguistically speaking, for I guess) and their birth -
in Britain some R-U152 are of Viking or Continental Germanic origin but the most of them I believe is from Belgii stock (as a few R-U106) - E-NE Scotland presents too much R-152 for it would be of Viking or Germanic origin too - movements from Eastern-France Gaule and Celtic Switzerland are mentionned about the Iron Age too, in Fifeshire, the same region or very near (known for their mesocephaly, and some 'borreby' + 'dinaric' like people - for Wales, we can yet envisage a few Belgii or acquainted people of Gaule : in a survey about 90 men of North Wales it's been found 7,5% of R-U152 and 9,2% of R-U106: some could be of Belgii stock, some of a little Germanic influence (the 2, I mean) - in every case, it's obvious that Western Germanic people carried more R-U106 than I1, the Eastern augmented by Scandinavina descent more I1 than U-152, and little more R1a too - Then, I beleive that there was 'celtic' R-U106 (with some R-U152) in Western Austria but that the bulk of there today R-U106 is of Germanic origin (Folkswanderung), after all they have 12% of I1 as Belgium and Switzerland where more data could show big differences bewteen previously germanized and not germanized districts (before modern language replacement...
just my opinion

you mean I1 from here
http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...ca_5,000BC.jpg

[MOESAN]

But the Veneti were, in my opinion, an Illyrianized para-Italic population, and I think it could be possible that some U106 was indigenous to Italy (ie. not brought by Germanic peoples)... Anyway, I insist, U106 could not be purely Germanic; look at Britain, for example: It's found in the same frequencies as in the homeland of the Angles and Saxons, but they obviously did not completely replace the earlier populations.

sorry for I'm late on this topic
I just red this day that the Urns of Villanova Culture ('hutt' shape) at the time of Urnfields in Western Europe fit with some of the ones in Lusacian-Silesian Region of Wester Poland - It's funny because there are some visible traces of Y-R1b-U152/S28 in Poland and we can suppose that Y-R1b-U152 was the dominant HG among Italic people and maybe Veneti of North Adriatic sea (at the contrary Terramare should not have been Italics?). Someones think that Veneti-Wendes was of Illyrian stock and that they played a heavy role in Lusacian Culture linked itself with Urnfields synthesis - It's true HG's are not linked DIRECTLY to a variant of language - it's interesting nevertheless; but Y-R1b-U106/S21 is tighter linked to proto-Germanic people for i believe... but a mix of the 2 in ancient Veneti is not to be discarded.
so...?

[MOESAN]

you mean I1 from here
http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...ca_5,000BC.jpg

yes, I believe it has not changed yet: Y-I1 previously I1a, its ancestros separated from the I2 ones for a very long time I think

[Triffid]

I would say that U106 is around 30% Celtic in Britain. Any more would not explain why it's completely absent in Wales

Not completely absent, I think I maybe an anomaly though.

[King Niall]

R1b U106 are the Romans. I have seen some things that allege this that are convincing.

[King Niall]

R1b u106 has a prescence in england but true Scandanvians/germanics are r1b L-21 which is the dominant R1b in the Brtitish isles and norway. R1b u106 has a big prescence in Germany and Italy obviously under roman rule. R1B U106 threads always have inflated figures and a desire to erroneously tie this group to Nordic people. It's highest concentrantion is in Italy. People who have it germany or england are descendants of the romans.

[Taranis]

R1b U106 are the Romans. I have seen some things that allege this that are convincing.

Hi!

The Romans? I really wonder what sources that would be that do alledge this, because if you take a look at the distribution pattern of R1b-U106 and the (maximum) extend of the Roman Empire, there is virtually no similarity:

[sparkey]

R1b u106 has a prescence in england but true Scandanvians/germanics are r1b L-21 which is the dominant R1b in the Brtitish isles and norway. R1b u106 has a big prescence in Germany and Italy obviously under roman rule. R1B U106 threads always have inflated figures and a desire to erroneously tie this group to Nordic people. It's highest concentrantion is in Italy. People who have it germany or england are descendants of the romans.

You seem to be wrong about, erm, everything. L21 is dominant in *parts of* the British Isles, but the parts it reaches its highest frequency are the least Germanic parts, like Ireland, Wales, and Cornwall. U106 is higher frequency in Norway than L21 is (unless you have a study that contradicts that?). U106 does not have an important presence in Italy outside of Northern Italy. Its highest concentration is in the Netherlands, not Italy. Maybe you're confusing U106 with U152?

[King Niall]

Yes U152. But I saw a study of Y dna of roman centurions being in a grave with J haplotypes. I could have sworn it was r1b u106. I can't find it now. Does anyone have Roman Centurion Y dna sample articles? I know they are testing them? The Saxe Coburgs are r1b u106 I believe.

[King Niall]

The roman emperors always had the German Guards protect them. I would not be suprised at German-Roman connection r1b u106.

[MOESAN]

King Niall, yo do very surprising guesses! U106 is almost absent from Italy, and is found for the most of it in Northern Italy where German tribes are attested by History - (I have no detailed data for Sicily and a Normans link) -
the "germanic" distribution of U106 is so obvious, in every part of Europe! (there is not cultural Y-HG but there are populations and their culture where an HG is very well represented since a long time and others where it is almost or totally absent...)
R-L21 seams for the most of it linked to Celts or early celtized people of N-w Europe -