I2a2b-Isles and Ireland

[Keegah]

Hello. My father and I are trying to learn more about our ancestry and genealogy, and have, at last, started to make some discoveries. Via DNA testing we've found that, despite our name being - according to what I've read from several sources on the internet - being of Old English origin, our DNA does not match up with any families sharing our surname in England or Scotland. It does however, match up with several families in Ireland. That, along with the fact that the earliest ancestor we've found was born in Ireland in the early 1700s, seems to suggest an Irish origin. We have found one Gaelic surname that might represent a pre-Anglicization of our current name, but we haven't been able to verify if it is indeed connected to us as of yet.

So right now, we're focused on trying to discover any other evidence that would give us some leads on our original place of origin. At the moment we're leaning towards Ireland for the reasons described above. Here's the issue. I've recently discovered that I'm I2a2b-Isles D1. From what I've read, the vast majority of the Irish are R1b. Now, obviously I understand that I2a2b-Isles is found almost exclusively in the British Isles, Ireland included. Says so right there in the tag. However, I was and am under the impression that it's centered in Great Britain, particularly Scotland. Furthermore, the Gaelic surname that we have reason to believe was our pre-Anglicization surname, is derived from Western Ireland... as I understand it, the region home to the most "originally" Irish, and as such, almost entirely R1b. Not only that, but if I2a2b-Isles is derived from SE European migrants... why would an I2a2b-Isles family have a Gaelic surname? There're just a lot of questions here on our end.

I guess my first question(s) would be, as an I2a2b-Isles D1, does there exist a reasonable basis for my family originating in Ireland? If so, how far back would that history likely go? Is there any way of knowing? Would we be able to accurately call ourselves Gaelic?

Thank you.

[Dubhthach]

What's the surname? Well a number of key Irish families particuarly those with connections to the Ulaid (whom the province of Ulster are named after) are I2. These mostly belong to the Dál nAradi who are know in Irish history as having Cruithne descent.

I2 in an Irish context has probably been on the island alot longer then R1b (especially R1b-L21)

[Dorianfinder]

I found the following comment informative.

Nordtvedt has dated I2a2b-Isles squarely in the Neolithic. However, there are those such as Tim Owen [see the Ingenta blog, 'Genes of the Cruthin' 2010, by Ian Adamson and Tim Owen] who have argued for a Mesolithic dating and an entry to Britain via Doggerland and possible links to the narrowblade culture.

Nordtvedt sees I2a2b-Isles as hitting the British shores around 6,000 years ago. There were other 'early I clades' too such as [the earliest] the Iberia-founded M26 I2a1, I2* and I2b1a-English.

According to Nordtvedt, I2a2b-Isles was founded in northern Germany. Perhaps it got there via LBK bands. From northern Germany, where the snp L161 was 'born', I2a2b-Isles was probably carried to Britain and Ireland via successive waves of people- pre-Celts, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons. Owen has conjectured that the Anglo-Saxons account for at least some of the I2a2b distribution in England and lowland Scotland. Apparently, Bryan Sykes is in agreement. One can envisage I2a2b carried across by Germanics in small quantities alongside I1, I2b1 and R1a1 in the historical period.

There are currently 8 subclades of I2a2b-Isles- A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. There is a decent [for a small clade] distribution across the north European plain with examples of subclades A, C, and D as well as the oldest B subclade represented on the continent. Germany has most members.

The bulk of I2a2b-Isles is in Ireland. Here, Tim Owen has conjectured, there may be a link to the Cruthin- allegedly Ireland's earliest post-LGM inhabitants. Owen draws attention to a hotspot for subclades C and D around Rathcroghan in County Roscommon, which was once a Cruthin satellite settlement [see 'Genes of the Cruthin'], the bulk of Cruthin settlement being in Ulster.

In Ireland, the subclades appear to be concentrated in the western half of the island, in what are argubly 'refuge' areas. The distribution is spread thinly across the population. The suggestion here is of a relic, pre-Gaelic population, subsumed beneath an R1b-majority Gaelic one.

More research needs to be conducted on I2a2b. It is clearly north-west European and absent in eastern Europe. The branchlines between it and I2a2a separated some 13,000 years ago. Eventually, I hope, the databases will enlarge so that we are able to say more about this fascinating little clade.

[Yorkie]

I found the following comment informative.

Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

It is true that the bulk of this clade is found in Ireland but it really should not be regarded as an Irish clade per se, as there is a relatively fair smattering of 'Isles' in England and lowland Scotland for a very small clade.

The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.

[sparkey]

Thanks for quoting me earlier. I would like to add a little too. The most up-to-date nomenclature for this L161 positive 'Isles' clade is now I2a1b2-Isles, according to Ken Nordtvedt. It is certainly old, but arguably M26 positive forms of I2a got to Britain first.

The small clade has an emerging presence on the north European plain with Germany foremost, which we are finding as the databases gradually increase at glacial rates. All of the 8 subclades have been found on the continent in very small numbers. Nordtvedt, however, is of the view that the oldest subclades [B1, B2] were founded somewhere in northern Germany but that clades C1 and C2 were founded most likely in Ireland with D1 and D2 as offshoots of C.

To reiterate, maybe there is a connection with pre-Gaelic peoples in Ireland for 'Isles' but in England and lowland Scotland it seems far more likely that 'Isles' was carried as a minority alongside I1, R1b etc by Anglo-Saxon invaders.

Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.

The I2a clade that seems to centre in Scotland is an intermediate 'Disles' form, which is actually closer to the Balkans-centred 'Dinaric' forms.

Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?

[Yorkie]

Yes, although I would argue fairly strongly that an Anglo-Saxon influence for I2a-Isles is limited to the "B" cluster, as, although old, it is the only one that appears outside of the British Isles. The center of diversity of I2a-Isles as a whole is in Britain, barely, with the TMRCA of the whole thing being about 6,000 years old... so it's not entirely clear whether its MRCA lived in Britain, or on the Continent, or in Doggerland.

Either way, I actually think it got there before I2a1a. I2a1a didn't start expanding out of Southwestern Europe until around the same time the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived, and the MRCA of I2a-Isles lived either in or very close to Britain... giving it a large head start. Its later bottleneck is consistent with the fact that Britain remained a hunter-gatherer area until late. So, once the Neolithic reached Britain (and probably I2a1a with it), I2a-Isles, or at least a cluster or two of it (all but B? Just C/D? Some extinct cousins?), was probably already there.



Disles is more of a mystery. Later, earlier, or peer arrival to Britain with I2a-Isles?

Sparkey,
I know that Jean Manco holds the view that it is the 'B' subclades that can be associated with the Anglo-Saxons but I am not so sure. Nordtvedt has continental examples from A, C and D subclades too, I believe. I seem to remember a German 'Krause' in either D1 or D2, for example. All the 8 subclades have been found in England too. I know of an example of an 'Isles' D2 who tested with Peter Forster at RootsforReal. Forster ran the D2 signature [supposedly so 'Irish'..] through his massive, anonymous Cambridge database and the hotspot came out as Germany. This was using 43 markers rather than a 'bikini' haplotype, by the way. I suspect that there is more out there on the continent than we realise. We need more samples for definate, and the databases fill so slowly.

Nordtvedt definately sees the M26 I2a as hitting the shores before 'Isles'. I believe that 'Disles' is younger than 'Isles' according to his calculations.

In any case, Ydna is only a fraction of our ancestry. Personally, I am far more into autosomal dna these days. I think we sometimes place too much stall in Y haplogroups in terms of identity. For me, it is the overall picture that counts not so much these smaller parts.

[Keegah]

What's the surname? Well a number of key Irish families particuarly those with connections to the Ulaid (whom the province of Ulster are named after) are I2. These mostly belong to the Dál nAradi who are know in Irish history as having Cruithne descent.

I2 in an Irish context has probably been on the island alot longer then R1b (especially R1b-L21)

O'Toghda, anglicized to Todd. In the Brenach area of Connacht.

[Keegah]

Sorry, actually from Bredach.

[Keegah]

Small update... Just found that we have a near exact match to a Gibbins family from County Mayor. No way of telling when the divergence occurred though.

[mul]

Hi Keegah
The Gibbins match has just done 25 markers , you are an exact match at this level which is good but a lot of the markers can change in the next batch of markers .They do not give Ireland as a home country ? . If you can contact him ask him to upgrade to see how close your match holds up.
You are an odd ball Todd in that you and your cousin are the only two in the Todd project that are I2a Isles, and 1 is Dinaric .
Most other projects are similar, with a lot of R1b and a scattering of I , with a few I members that have a little variance of markers .
I cannot find any reference to O'Toghda = Todd .

A quote from Ken
13,500 b.p. The two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles separate.
6,000 b.p. Two branch lines eventually leading to I2a2b-Isles-B(&A) and to I2a2b-Isles-C(&D)
5,600 b.p. TMRCA for 17 Continental members of Clade B
4.800 b.p. TMRCA for 34 Isles members of Clade B
3,900 b.p. TMRCA of Clade C
2,500 b.p. TMRCA of Clade D
1,500 b.p. TMRCA of clade A
Going on this date for Isles D of 2500 yrs it is quiet possible that your family , before names were in use ,were in Ireland went to Britian and then over time back to Ireland again .
Is Gibbons from Mayo in Ireland ?

[Keegah]

What would you say that implies? I have no bias towards either Scotland or Ireland, or England. It's just that we've only found DNA matches in Ireland. That's what's so damn confusing.

[yeshua2000@yahoo.com]

Pardon my ignorance, but how do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?
My haplogroup subclade is I2a2b M423+ L161+
Surname is Nance, probable origin is Cornwall, England.

[sparkey]

Pardon my ignorance, but how do you tell if you are Isles A, B, C, D?
My haplogroup subclade is I2a2b M423+ L161+
Surname is Nance, probable origin is Cornwall, England.

We need to look at your STR markers, as I mentioned in reply to your first post. Did you test through FTDNA?

[yeshua2000@yahoo.com]

Thanks for your help Sparky, here they are:

DYS393	DYS390	DYS19	DYS391	DYS385	DYS426	DYS388	DYS439	DYS389I	DYS392	DYS389II
13	24	16	11	12-15	11	12	11	13	11	30

Yes, this was through FTDNA

[sparkey]

Thanks for your help Sparky, here they are:

DYS393	DYS390	DYS19	DYS391	DYS385	DYS426	DYS388	DYS439	DYS389I	DYS392	DYS389II
13	24	16	11	12-15	11	12	11	13	11	30

Yes, this was through FTDNA

Replied here, let's keep the discussion on that thread.

[mul]

If you are getting Irish matches , what are the names bar Gibbins , which is Irish .
Also how close a match are they .

[Keegah]

The matches are all Todds, hence the confusion. We match up with some Todds in Ireland, but literally no Todds from Great Britain. I'd assume we were Scottish if we matched up with the much more numerous Todds in Scotland and Northern England. But we don't. And I have no idea why. It's very frustrating.

However, we very recently found some more sensible relations to a Boyd family and a Bruce family, both from Scotland. However, they're not as close of a match as the Gibbins. On a 37 marker test, they're three off from a perfect match. Gibbins is one off.

Also. We joined an Ulster database project on FTDNA. We had zero matches. Same for a Scotland database.

I'm really at a loss here. I'd assumed we were Scottish at the start, then after only finding Irish matches I started to suspect we were Irishmen that changed our surnames, but now we have a relation to two very Scottish surnames. Despite us not having any matches with those of our own surname outside of Ireland.

If you have any advice as to where to go from here, I would greatly appreciate it.

[mul]

Isles is a minority clad in Ireland and Britan .Less than 1000 people have been tested so far and multiple ones are the same family.Over 500 000 have been tested so far.
Your markers are Isles D1 and some of the names are Tomalty ,Mc Laurin,Furman,Nolan,McAbee,Hood,McDonald,Johnson,B oyd,Bruce,Long,Norton,Jolley,Stuart,Roberts,Sch
aller,Larocque,
Most of the names seem to be from Scotland.
I would see how close you are to the Gibbins man at 67 markers. If you are above 61/2 markers , that would be a close match

[Gungnir]

I2a2b-Disles has been changed to I2a1b1-Disles.

This is my haplotype also. My understanding is that it is only found in Scotland and North East Ireland, and the colonies, of course. Last I heard there were only 80ish people known to have it, if I remember correctly, but that may have changed. My surname is now most commonly found in England but it has Gaelic origins and was a term used to refer to the Danish viking invaders and settlers so I assume that is where it came from. Who knows though, maybe it was there prior to them and my ancestors were adopted into the clan or something.

[mul]

You are wright .
At this stage with the changing names , for simplicity I use I2a2 ,Isles ,Disles and Dinaric . When we use just these names most people know what we are talking about
Are you the typical 17,10,15,15 at dys 19,391,385ab .
There are some names like Wainright,Woods,McLean,Morrow,Henry,McCarrick,Davi s,McRae,Gibson,Heron,Haran,Conway,McGuire,Pruden,
Brennan,Downie,Pearce,Gribben,Moon,
There are more but not enough markers to be positive
I will assume your name is there ,If not PM me please

If you have any matches that are not there let me know

[Gungnir]

My name is not on that list but close to one. You may not want to include me though because I do not know my markers. I tested only with 23andMe and sent my data to Ken Nordtvedt. He said it was most likely that since my ancestry is British Isles and the only other option was Dinaric, so it is assumed at this point I suppose. I wish I still had the email from him so I could remember exactly what he said. I know I asked him if I should test with another company and he told me it would serve no purpose. Is he on this board?

I went back and checked the emails and that is basically what he said.

[Keegah]

This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

As always, thank you.

[Eireannach]

This seems kind of obvious to me, but just to be sure... I have a few questions.

Did Ulster Scots interbreed with the native Irish, and did Ulster Scots immigrate to America along with the native Irish? And, once there, did they remain with and around the Irish in their immigrant communities?

As always, thank you.

The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America

[Keegah]

The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America

Well that's... pretty confusing. One, my earliest ancestor we've found so far, Joseph Todd, who was born and lived in derry, had a wife with a Gaelic maiden name. Ann Schanon, which as I've found is a pre anglicization of Shannon. He left to America with her and settled in an Irish community, where my family stayed for a few generations. Most of Joseph and Ann Todd's children married Irish spouses. This went on for a fair amount of time.

So that makes me, once again, lean towards my family originally not being Todd until around the Ulster plantation. But other than gibbins I haven't found any potential predecessor surnames. Still, information is information. Thank you very much for the information sir.

[King Niall]

The Ulster Scots largely did not interbreed with the native Irish (and to this day remain a separate identifiable community). They also in the main did not emigrate to America at the same time as the native Irish. Most Ulster Scot migration to America occured in the 1700's and early 1800's. Native Irish emigration occured during this time but not to the same extent until the mid 1800's when it sky rocketed as a result of the Potato Famine.

They also did not really associate with each other in America

There are lot of people that are not native to the British Isles but who are "experts" on it case in point.