Autosomal map : European admixture (from Dodecad)

[Knovas]

Here is the link: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...rom-Dodecad%29

[julia90]

this second map has more right to be called not european, being the peak in arabia saudita and southern egypt, thoght those people from saudi arabia are heavily mixed with ethiopians or sub saharian african, so it's not easy to know their purer south west asian look.

[julia90]

i think italy should be considered more properly euro-mediterranean with important genes from the caucasus and mediterranean south west asia.

thought also sardinia have south west asian genes like central southern italy.

it express very well it's mediterranean characters

[Cambrius (The Red)]

that is what you and whilelm think, i don't think this, this is relative and higly subjective like the title given to that map.

and they are not cherrypicked, at least the adygeans.

caucasian genes, are part of europe, of south east europe, therefore european

Certainly, there is nothing subjective about the Eurogenes and Dodecad maps. The researchers for those projects use the identical cutting edge software as top research universities to break down autosomal samplings and determine percentages. Now, if you have an issue with the Eupedia maps that's different.

[Knovas]

No one deny's Italians are Europeans, it's where they cluster. Then, people is free to consider the admixture (present in all Europeans) in many different ways. This map gives a perspective some people doesn't like, well, separate maps are also available. Everybody happy.

I personally don't have any problem with any type of these maps.

[Wilhelm]

that is what you and whilelm think, i don't think this, this is relative and higly subjective like the title given to that map.

and they are not cherrypicked, at least the adygeans.

caucasian genes, are part of europe, of south east europe, therefore european

No, not european genes. Caucasian people don't even cluster with europeans, they cluster with Iranians, Turks and Levantines.

[Alan]

No way georgians look more european than Sardinians. To start with, georgians genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks, and also look similar to them (unless we talk about russian admixed georgians) while Sardinians cluster with Europeans and look mainly euro-mediterranean, maybe more archaic because of their strong palaeolithic ancestry.

Now to be serious, first to start with. Comparing Georgians with Sardinians isnt even fair because in compare with Georgians (70% West Asian) Sardinians are still highly mixed and at least 30-40% West European. For Gods sake no disrespect but to understand how "swarthy" the Mediterranean component is in compare to West Asian you simply have to take Spaniards who are up to 50% West European and still the majority of them looks Mediterranean while Circassians with only 20-30% look to me simply South Slavic and it is very usual to find Chechens, Circassians who look fully Nordic though only 20% West/East European. This says much.

[Alan]

this genes, seems to not be middle eastern, (and i have nothing against middle eastern people), they peak in caucasus, so if that map is an attempt to exclude some people from the "white circle", and giving them strange looks, is wrong because caucasian genes are europid.
Middle eastern are perceived as less europid looking, as as some sorts of aliens, even if i don't consider them like that, and i find mediterranean middle eastern and iranian very good looking.

a question is why the peak is in caucasus, and it is widespread in the middle east and south eastern europe too.
are caucasian middle eastern or do the middle eastern have high caucasian genes?

West Asian (the name is irritating) is simply a Caucasian gene. the Near East (Turks Iranians, Armenians etc) is a crossroad mainly between the Caucasian and Mediterranean Gene with some other influences.

[Wilhelm]

Now to be serious, first to start with. Comparing Georgians with Sardinians isnt even fair because in compare with Georgians (70% West Asian) Sardinians are still highly mixed and at least 30-40% West European. For Gods sake no disrespect but to understand how "swarthy" the Mediterranean component is in compare to West Asian you simply have to take Spaniards who are up to 50% West European and still the majority of them looks Mediterranean while Circassians with only 15-20% look to me simply South Slavic and it is very usual to find Chechens, Circassians who look fully Nordic though only 20% West/East European. This says much.

Depends what you understand for mediterranean. To other people the majority of iberia is Atlanto-Med, similar to the dark types of Irish or SouthWest French

[LeBrok]

Could there possibly be another motive besides an obvious racist one for wanting to prove to everyone that you are 'pure' Europeans? Your infatuation is beginning to concern me Wilhelm.

Yep, since 2009 Wilhelm dedicated 1,300 post to unbrowning and antibrowning of Iberia.
Can it get more pathetic than this?!

[spongetaro]

Search "Sardinian faces" on google. You can see Sardinians people there. If Sardinian are representative for Mediterranean admixture, then I agree that West Asian lokks more Europoid than Mediterranean does.

[Mzungu mchagga]

This discussion reminds me very much of that one with Goga and as how European the Saami can be considered. While he was supporting a very 'geographic' point of view, julia90 advocates a more or less 'phenotypical' point of view.

I must admit, I'm also having problems with understanding why some genetic markers, which were fixed as European by certain people, have the sole claim to define 'true Europeaness'. They could aswell have taken other markers, or am I wrong? Where does Europeaness start and where does it end?

[Knovas]

Clustering studies show Georgians and similars removed from Europe, so I don't think all researchers are wrong. There are just a few picts here, don't be ingenuous thinking all people in those populations look like this. Sure not...

Sardinians are Certanly part of Europe geneticaly speaking, but it's possible not at the level some studies showed them (near 98%). They have many different phenotypes, but this is in great part because they should have substantial Eastern Mediterranean influence, very far from being fully Southwestern. And of course, it's possible they have 15% of admixture in average like the last run says.

I told this a lot of times, and Sardinians are a good example to understand it. If you check the K=10 run, you'll see Sardinians have more or less 98% European (almost enterely Southern European), but K=12 reduces the total European score to 85%. That's simply to understand: the Mediterranean component is even MORE European than it was before the Southern European one. If things are not like this, it is impossible to explain a huge change like this between Sardinians.

I posted the distances and comparisons between K=10 and K=12 in other posts, and I don't want to do it again. You can go and check what I'm saying, just keep in mind that according to the distances, the Southern European cluster was closer to Southwest Asian than the Mediterranean is now in comparison with the other groups, and the rest of the distances are more or less proportional. So it's clear that if Mediterranean is far from the non European groups than it was before (K=10 Southern European), it clearly means more European. Distances are numbers, so they don't lie. And again, the Sardinian example shows this perfectly, you won't find a better explanation to go from 98% to 85% European.

[Alan]

First of all to make something clear. the Caucasians arent further away from Europeans than Mediterrnean People. This is nonsense. Circassians, Lezgians etc are just further east but come very close to Northeuropeans while Mediterraneans (Spaniards, Italians) are further West just like the Mediterranean element .

Now look at this map and tell me even though Spaniards are up to 50% North European(East/West European) that they are closer to Russians as Lezgians. Basques fully European (according to your map) are further away from Russians and Lithuanians than Lezgians.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygt...s1600/waeu.png

Second point usually when someone says West Asian is closer to West European than Mediterranean is, than the argument is brought " it is also closer to Southwest Asian and East African". Of course it is but if you only have a bit knowledge about genetics and migrations you know that this is the case because actually Southwest Asian developed from West Asian farmers who moved into the Arabian Peninsula and mixed with North African. (Afro-Asiatic speakers).

Just search for Circassians and Chechenya and compare them.

Between before someone comes with this faces,

this guy here is not a Chechen but Saudi Arabian Mujahidin leader living in Chechenya.




This here are real Chechens

[Knovas]

Mediterranean according to the distances is even more Southern European than the K=10 cluster, so there's absolutly no point in separating Mediterranean from Europe. Sardinians show this clearly from K=10 to K=12 v3, because if Mediterranean was "less Southern European", they would get 100% European, not 85% (-13%). Caucasians are not incredibly removed, but the difference it's apreciable in the genetic plots, more or less the same as if you check European Jews (different levels of West Asian, Southwest Asian, and more or less half European admixture not present between Caucasians), who cluster in a similar distance.

Spaniards and North Italians (the rest of Italians it's difficult to say) are closer to Lithuanians than the populations you mention, it's very easy since the 3 have substantial West European (30% or more). Lithuanians are not pure East Europeans, and Spaniards and Italians aren't pure Meds. Even Lithuanians have nearly 0% West Asian, wich makes it more difficult. That's what it's required to know to understand this. No need to say none of the Gergians is pure West Asian till the moment, although it's possible some of them really are...who knows.

usually when someone says West Asian is closer to West European than Mediterranean is, than the argument is brought " it is also closer to Southwest Asian and East African

Of course must be said, because the correct way to check the distances is comparing one cluster with the rest (11), and do it 12 times if want to have an accurate idea about the other clusters. Checking only one vs one it tells absolutly nothing but in its "pure" form both are closer or far, but there's no idea about the origin/where it peaks. Checking one vs all, you could guess it with some effort if we imagine the clusters without names, just exactly how they come at the begining.

[Wilhelm]

First of all to make something clear. the Caucasians arent further away from Europeans than Mediterrnean People.

Yes, they are. Much further away. Spaniards cluster between French and North-Italians, while Georgians cluster with Iranians and Turks.

[Alan]

@Knovas you are still not getting it do you? I am talking about apples you talk about oranges. It is clear that Spaniards and North Italians have more West/East European than Caucasians I did mentioned it but still they are further removed from Russians than Lezgians or Chechens. Why do you think? I will tell you the Mediterranean element makes the difference. The West Asian element on its self is more like a Southern Version of West European. Means Caucasians simply dont need to have high West/East European to get close to North Europeans because the West Asian element on its self is very similar.

It isnt that hard to understand simply compare Armenians and Georgians physically and than genetically and see which element makes the main difference and why Armenians are compared to Georgians swarthier.

And no I never did claim that Mediterranean is not European. There is no way to exclude Mediterranean from Europe. I simply cant stay here and watch how people are playing with the definition of West Asian.

[Knovas]

Ok Alan, but the phrase Wilhelm quoted you was the same confused me. Now I see what you meant.

[Alan]

Yes, they are. Much further away. Spaniards cluster between French and North-Italians, while Georgians cluster with Iranians and Turks.

Just look at Dienekes map and try to understand it. Georgians might have the highest West Asian component but are not that representative for the West Asian element because they have some of the Mediterranean component compared to Lezgians and Chechens, which pushes them further South to Iranians, Turks while Spaniards have 50% West European and still arent closer to North Europeans. It is the Mediterranean factor which makes the difference.

[Alan]

Ok Alan, but the phrase Wilhelm quoted you was the same confused me. Now I see what you meant.

Ok I might try to express myself better the next time. Mediterranean is compared to West Asian further West while West Asian is compared to Mediterranean further North.

[Wilhelm]

Just look at Dienekes map and try to understand it. Georgians might have the highest West Asian component but are not that representative for the West Asian element because they have some of the Mediterranean component compared to Lezgians and Chechens, which pushes them further South to Iranians, Turks while Spaniards have 50% West European and still arent closer to North Europeans. It is the Mediterranean factor which makes the difference.

I don't know where do you get that but Spaniards are much closer to North-Europeans than any caucasian group.

[Alan]

Willhelm you simply dont understand or cant bring it in agreement with your ego.

A just better example. We know that Spaniards are up to 40-50% West/East European. Now to get a better compare just Imagine a half Georgian and half Lithuanian Person who would have something like 40% East European + 50% West Asian + 10% Mediterranean and now compare this imaginary person with an average Spaniard, better even with an ethnic Basque. Which Person would look more Northern in your opinion and why? A Georgian/Lithuanian or a Basque Spaniard?

Here a map.

Black where West Asian component peaks
Green where Mediterranean
and Red an area between West and East European (North European)

europe.jpg

West/East European (as expected) most Northern.
Mediterranean more western somewhere on the Mediterranean
West Asian further east from Mediterranean but definitely more Northern somewhere between Mediterranean and North European.

[Knovas]

The problem Alan is that Caucasians are too Eastern direction, and not much North. Of course there are some of them who have a similar Northern European/Slavic look, but most of them really don't. In my opinion they simply look West Asians/Caucasians, they are easy to distinguish from Northern peoples in average.

[Wilhelm]

Willhelm you simply dont understand or cant bring it in agreement with your ego.

A just better example. We know that Spaniards are up to 40-50% West/East European. Now to get a better compare just Imagine a half Georgian and half Lithuanian Person who would have something like 40% East European + 50% West Asian + 10% Mediterranean and now compare this imaginary person with a average Spaniard, better even with an ethnic Basque. Which Person would look more Northern in your opinion and why? A Georgian/Lithuanian or a Basque Spaniard?

Here a map.

Black where West Asian component peaks
Green where Mediterranean
and Red an area between West and East European (North European)

europe.jpg

West/East European (as expected) most Northern.
Mediterranean more western somewhere on the Mediterranean
West Asian further east from Mediterranean but definitely more Northern somewhere between Mediterranean and North European.

It's not my ego, is what genetic distances tell. See the study of Tian et al. where Spaniards are much closer to Swedes than Adyghe people. Also in genetic plots we are much closer to them than Georgians or other Caucasus are.

[Alan]

not much more Eastern than the East European component. It all depends on the definition of Eastern. If the North Caucasus is too Eastern, than All Russians North of the Caspian are this too and by God those look no way less European than Mediterraneans However I dont really care if West Asian is considered European I just wanted to make some points clear.