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Thread: Autosomal map : European admixture (from Dodecad)

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    It's not my ego, is what genetic distances tell. See the study of Tian et al. where Spaniards are much closer to Swedes than Adyghe people. Also in genetic plots we are much closer to them than Georgians or other Caucasus are.
    Now it is official you are simply not able to understand this. I am talking about apples (Russians,Lithuanians) you come with oranges(Swedes).

    Not much to add. You can believe what you want.

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    What do you mean by "lookin more european" ? Do you take as a reference nordic people for what european looks like ? Do you have an inferiority complex ? You can see genetic plots or distances. It's clear. Iberians are closer to Scandinavians than any Caucasus are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Now it is official you are simply not able to understand this. I am talking about apples (Russians,Lithuanians) you come with oranges(Swedes).

    Not much to add. You can believe what you want.
    Oh, please you were talking of northern-europeans. Russians are Eastern-Europeans. well yes Caucasus are more Eastern than us, but not by much, since Georgians/Lezgins show 4% EE and Spaniards 2%.

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    Both Russians and Lithuanians show 30% West European or more. It's good to keep this in mind as I said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    What do you mean by "lookin more european" ? Do you take as a reference nordic people for what european looks like ? Do you have an inferiority complex ? You can see genetic plots or distances. It's clear. Iberians are closer to Scandinavians than any Caucasus are.
    Not I have a inferior complex you are simply too mentally challenged to understand that a North European Russian is in the average Eye more European looking than anyone from the Mediterranean are you denying this? You are the only person here who tries to prove how even more European they are than Austrians or Germans. I am simply saying What is more European is based on the definition. The average Person would any day consider a Moldavian more European looking than a Spaniard or other Mediterraneans even though Moldavians are more West Asian.
    Last edited by Alan; 24-09-11 at 22:43.

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    great Russians and Lithuanians are less North European than Brits and Swedes. Man you have some serious problems. I am out of this discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Not I have a inferior complex you are simply too mentally challenged to understand that a North European Russian is in the average Eye more European looking than anyone from the Mediterranean are you denying this? You are the only person here who tries to prove how even more European they are than Austrians or Germans. I am simply saying What is more European is based on the definition. The average Person would any day consider a Moldavian more European looking than a Spaniard or other Mediterraneans even though more West Asian.
    Here is the problem. We are talking about genetics, not about looks. You are the one here who has posted hunderds of cherry-picked Chechens to prove something, that has proven to be wrong with genetics. You see, Basques are darker and much less blonder than Finnish people, or Russians, yet are much more Europeans. That is a fact. Second : Now that you talk about looks, anthropology has proven that blondiness and fair eyes are much more common in Iberian than among Caucasus people. That is also a fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    great Russians and Lithuanians are less North European than Brits and Swedes. Man you have some serious problems. I am out of this discussion.
    Of course they are less north-european. See also Eurogenes, the same thing.

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    Lithuanians are the most Northern European (Baltics), and Russians have more or less 80%, so they are near to be (more even than Swedes, yes). Alan is probably right here, although considering the clusters, Russians deviate towards mongoloid populations, while Lithuanians and Swedes don't.

    Brits are definitely the less Northern European in the comparisson. All information according to Dodecad, it's possible Eurogenes show some things slightly different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Lithuanians are the most Northern European (Baltics), and Russians have more or less 80%, so they are near to be (more even than Swedes, yes). Alan is probably right here, although considering the clusters, Russians deviate towards mongoloid populations, while Lithuanians and Swedes don't.

    Brits are definitely the less Northern European in the comparisson. All information according to Dodecad, it's possible Eurogenes show some things slightly different.
    The K=10 "north-european" includes East-European, that's why, while the K=12 they are separate. The West peaks in Norwegians and thr East in Lithuanians. At Eurogenes, the separation is even more clear, Iberians get as much North-European as Estonians, and more than Russians, and it peaks in Swedes.

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    But Lithuanians are mainly Baltic, wich is just a variation of Northern European (Northeast). So from this point they are more Northern European, doesn't matter if we refer to the Scandinavian type or another one. Northern European is very ambiguous depending on the context, but if we use it as whole, Baltics must com into the categorie, and the same for others.

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    pictures from Circassians found in wikipedia




    LOL.. in wikipedia i've found also this, indeed the man in costumes are very goodlooking also the women too obviously

    CIRCASSIAN BEAUTIES

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_beauties

    Circassian beauties is a term used to refer to an idealized image of the women of the Circassian people of the Northern Caucasus. A fairly extensive literary history suggests that Circassian women were thought to be unusually beautiful, spirited and elegant, and as such were desirable as concubines. This reputation dates back to the Ottoman Empire when Circassian women living in the Sultan's Imperial Harem started to build their reputation as extremely beautiful and genteel, and then became a common trope in Western Orientalism.
    As a result of this reputation, in Europe and America Circassians were regularly characterised as the ideal of feminine beauty in poetry, novels and art. Cosmetic products were advertised, from the 18th century on, using the word "Circassian" in the title, or claiming that the product was based on substances used by the women of Circassia.
    In the 1860s the showman P. T. Barnum exhibited women whom he claimed were Circassian beauties. They wore a distinctive Afro-like hair style, which had no precedent in earlier portrayals of Circassians, but which was soon copied by other female performers, who became known as "moss haired girls". These were typically presented as victims of sexual enslavement among the Turks, who had escaped from the harem to achieve freedom in America.



    The legend of Circassian women in the western world is at least as old as 1734, when, in his Letters on the English, Voltaire alludes to the beauty of Circassian women:
    The Circassians are poor, and their daughters are beautiful, and indeed it is in them they chiefly trade. They furnish with those beauties the seraglios of the Turkish Sultan, of the Persian Sophy, and of all of those who are wealthy enough to purchase and maintain such precious merchandise. These maidens are very honorably and virtuously instructed how to fondle and caress men; are taught dances of a very polite and effeminate kind; and how to heighten by the most voluptuous artifices the pleasures of their disdainful masters for whom they are designed.
    – Letter XI, On Inoculation.[1]
    Their beauty is mentioned in Henry Fielding's Tom Jones (1749), in which Fielding remarked, "How contemptible would the brightest Circassian beauty, drest in all the jewels of the Indies, appear to my eyes!"[2]
    Similar erotic claims about Circassian women appear in Lord Byron's Don Juan (1818–24), in which the tale of a slave auction is told:
    For one Circassian, a sweet girl, were given,
    Warranted virgin. Beauty's brightest colours
    Had decked her out in all the hues of heaven.
    Her sale sent home some disappointed bawlers,
    Who bade on till the hundreds reached the eleven,
    But when the offer went beyond, they knew
    ‘Twas for the Sultan and at once withdrew.
    - Don Juan, canto IV, verse 114
    The legend of Circassian women was also repeated by legal theorist Gustav Hugo, who wrote that "Even beauty is more likely to be found in a Circassian slave girl than in a beggar girl", referring to the fact that even a slave has some security and safety, but a "free" beggar has none. Hugo's comment was later condemned by Karl Marx in The Philosophical Manifesto of the Historical School of Law (1842) on the grounds that it excused slavery.[3] Mark Twain reported in The Innocents Abroad (1869) that "Circassian and Georgian girls are still sold in Constantinople by their parents, but not publicly."[4]



    An advertisement from 1782 titled "Bloom of Circassia" makes clear that it was by then well established "that the Circassians are the most beautiful Women in the World", but goes on to reveal that they "derive not all their Charms from Nature". They used a concoction supposedly extracted from a vegetable native to Circassia. Knowledge of this "Liquid Bloom" had been brought back by a "well-regarded gentleman" who had traveled and lived in the region. It "instantly gives a Rosy Hue to the Cheeks", a "lively and animated Bloom of Rural Beauty" that would not disappear in perspiration or handkerchiefs.[5]
    In 1802 "The Balm of Mecca" was also marketed as being used by Circassians: "This delicate as well as fragrant composition has been long celebrated as the summit of cosmetics by all the Circassian and Georgian women in the seraglio of the Grand Sultan". It claims that the product was endorsed by Lady Mary Wortley Montague who stated that it was very helpful "for removing those sebacious impurities so noxious to beauty". The article continues, "Any lady must be as great an Infidel as the Grand Sultan himself, who, after receiving such authority can doubt that her skin will become as superlatively smooth, soft, white and delicate, as that of the lovely Fatima, whatever may have been its feel or its appearance before. What fair one but must yield implicit faith, when she has the honour of the Countess De --- fairly pledged, that all sepacious [sic] impurities will be at once removed by this wonder-working nostrum. And above all, who but must long for an article, from the seraglio of the Grand Turk, which produces a near resemblance to the Georgian and Circassian beauties?"[6]
    "Circassian Lotion," was sold in 1806 for the skin, at fifty cents the bottle. "A sovereign remedy for surfeits, scorching from the heat of the sun, freckles, blights from cold and chills of winter, scorbutic, pimples or eruptions of the face and skin, however violent or disfigured, animalcula generated under the cuticle or outer skin, *****ley heat, shingles, ring worms, redness of the nose and chin, obstinate cutaneous diseases, and for every impurity or unnatural appearance with which the skin may be affected; to be used as a common wash for clearing and improving the complexion, and in a superior degree to preserve, soften, cleanse and beautify the skin".[7]
    "Circassian Eye-Water" was marketed as "a sovereign remedy for all diseases of the eyes",[8] and in the 1840s "Circassian hair dye" was marketed to create a rich dark lustrous effect.[9]

    By the early nineteenth century, Circassians were associated with theories of racial hierarchy, which elevated the Caucasus region as the source of the purest examples of the white race, which was named the Caucasian race after the area by Johann Friedrich Blumenbach. Blumenbach theorised that the Circassians were the closest to God's original model of humanity, and thus "the purest and most beautiful whites were the Circassians".[10] This fuelled the idea of female Circassian beauty.[11]
    Circassians are depicted in images of harems at this time through these ideologies of racial hierarchy. John Frederick Lewis's The Harem portrays Circassians as the dominant mistresses of the harem, who look down on other women, as implied in the review of the painting in The Art Journal, which described it as follows,
    It represents the interior of a harem at Cairo, wherein is seated in luxurious ease a young Turk, attired in the excess of Moslem fashion. Near him, and reclining upon cushions, are two Circassian women, also dressed in the extremity of Oriental taste... On the right is seen a tall Nubian eunuch, who removes from the shoulders of an Egyptian slave the shawl by which she had been covered, in order to show her to the master of the harem; this figure with her high shoulders and the characteristics of her features, is a most successful national impersonation. The Circassian women look languidly to the Egyptian with an expression of supreme contempt, which is responded to by a sneer on the face of the Nubian eunuch.[12]
    Orientalizing paintings of nudes were also sometimes exhibited as "Circassians".
    The Circassians became major news during the Caucasian War, in which Russia conquered the North Caucasus, displacing large numbers of Circassians southwards. In 1856 The New York Times published a report entitled "Horrible Traffic in Circassian Women — Infanticide in Turkey", asserting that a consequence of the Russian conquest of the Caucasus was an excess of beautiful Circassian women on the Constantinople slave market, and that this was causing prices of slaves in general to plummet.[13] The story drew on ideas of racial hierarchy, stating that,
    the temptation to possess a Circassian girl at such low prices is so great in the minds of the Turks that many who cannot afford to keep several slaves have been sending their blacks to market, in order to make room for a newly-purchased white girl.
    The article also claimed that children born to the "inferior" black concubines were being killed. This story drew widespread attention to the area, as did later conflicts.
    At the same time writers and illustrators were also creating images depicting the authentic costumes and people of the Caucasus. Francis Davis Millet depicted Circassian women during his 1877 coverage of the Russo-Turkish war, specifying local costume and hairstyle.

    The combination of the popular issues of slavery, the Orient, racial ideology and sexual titillation gave the reports of Circassian women sufficient notoriety at the time that the circus leader P. T. Barnum decided to capitalize on this interest. He displayed a "Circassian Beauty" at his American Museum in 1865. Barnum's Circassian beauties were young women with tall, teased hairstyles, rather like the Afro style of the 1970s.[14] Actual Circassian hairstyles bore no resemblance to Barnum's fantasy.[15] Barnum's first "Circassian" was marketed under the name "Zalumma Agra" and was exhibited at his American Museum in New York from 1864. Barnum had written to John Greenwood, his agent in Europe, asking him to purchase a beautiful Circassian girl to exhibit, or at least to hire a girl who could "pass for" one. However, it seems that "Zalumma Agra" was probably a local girl hired by the show, as were later "Circassians".[16] Barnum also produced a booklet about another of his Circassians, Zoe Meleke, who was portrayed as an ideally beautiful and refined woman who had escaped a life of sexual slavery.
    The portrayal of a white woman as a rescued slave at the time of the American Civil War played on the racial connotations of slavery at the time. It has been argued that the distinctive hairstyle affiliates the side-show Circassian with African identity, and thus,
    resonates oddly yet resoundingly with the rest of her identifying significations: her racial purity, her sexual enslavement, her position as colonial subject; her beauty. The Circassian blended elements of white Victorian True Womanhood with traits of the enslaved African American woman in one curiosity.[14]
    The trend spread, with supposedly Circassian women featured in dime museums and travelling medicine shows, sometimes known as "Moss-haired girls". They were typically identified by the distinctive hairstyle, which was held in place by the use of beer. They also often performed in pseudo-oriental costume. Many postcards of Circassians also circulated. Though Barnum's original women were portrayed as proud and genteel, later images of Circassians often emphasised erotic poses and revealing costumes.[14] As the original fad faded, the "Circassians" started to add to their appeal by performing traditional circus tricks such as sword swallowing.[17]

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    a youtube reportage about Circassians living in Israel.. you can look from 1.03 , very good looking men and women

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    so un-europoid looking? i'd say no

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    I'd say yes. Several don't look European to me considering what is possible to see (not much).

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    LOL.. what's not european.. and WHAT IS EUROPEAN ???

    It's a waste of time.. i didn't want your response, i want response from other people, yours doesn't count

    to all the other users: Do they look less europoid looking than Sardineans?

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    I think I can give my opinion the same as you. And they don't to me, the same as quite Sardinians don't too. The problem is you'll never have a significant amount of people to see how the things work in average. A few picts doesn't mean anything.

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    think as you want, with all the respect to you, but the things you said above for me are bullshits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    the same as quite Sardinians don't too.
    untill now sardinians were osanned as being one of the "most pure" european race, paleolithic and bullshits like that etc..
    palelolithic for me doesn't account for european look.

    you are biased, that's the truth

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    Is it just me or do you two not recognize that Circassians are living throughout the Middle East since at least thousand years and that the Circassians from Israel in the Video above are obviously mixed with the muslim Palestinian community there. An Circassian from Israel is as much representative for an real Circassian from Caucasus as a ethnic Spaniard whom ancestors lived since hundred years in South America and who were obviously mixed with the locals. To find Circassians who are from Dagestan is very problematic because there are as much Circassians throughout the Middle East, Europe, America as there are in Dagestan.


    This here are real Circassians from Caucasus




    Just for the information. The Circassians have due the Turkic influence some Asian admixture which is visible in some Persons. This is why I usually talk about Lezgians, Ossetians and Chechens more as representation for North Caucasus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    think as you want, with all the respect to you, but the things you said above for me are bullshits
    This is not respect, at least, not the same I had for your opinions. You are simply ofended becuase we don't agree...it's nothing drastic to my knowledge, but it's ok if you feel better.

    And I personally did not say anything of what you say about Sardinians, so I'm absloutely not biased, and you show to be plain liar telling this. What I said is they get very different genetic results from a run to another, and specialy in the last one they are 85% European, what means very far from being the most purest Europeans. So don't put words in my mouth dishonestly, since I dedicated a large post talking about the different results got by Sardinians between K=10 and K=12.

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    thank you alan for your useful post.
    Indeed i noticed some mongolic look in some of them, due to turkik admixture.

    To me they look europoid, and the people of europe originated in western asia (many of them, others from the plains of russia).. those of the balkans and italy have also genes in common with Circassians, also the other groups such slavic, germanic, etc.. arrived in prehistory from the areas around caucasus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    This is not respect, at least, not the same I had for your opinions. You are simply ofended becuase we don't agree...it's nothing drastic to my knowledge, but it's ok if you feel better. And I personally did not say anything of what you say about Sardinians, so I'm absloutely no biased, and you show to be plain liar telling this. What I said is they get very different genetic results from a run to another, and specialy in the last one they are 85% European, what means very far from being the most purest Europeans. So don't put words in my mouth dishonestly, since I dedicated a large post talking about the different results got by Sardinians between K=10 and K=12.
    the thing is that you are contributing to spread false beliefs about people of southern italy and the balkans, agreeing on that map that says EUROPEAN ADMIXTURE, and European means Nothing and Everything.

    I don't respect this opinion of you.

    For the rest i'm okay with you.

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    Southern Italians and Italians as whole cluster with Europeans, the same as Greeks and the Balkans. If you missed something like this (I think I told it several times), now you have it.

    So if your problem was another, there was no need to put words in my mouth never said by me. Of course this means 0% respect, and sorry, but you can't tell nothing except you simply desagree.

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    My problem is that that map means nothing and everything
    The title of that map means nothing and everything.

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