Autosomal map : European admixture (from Dodecad)

Actually Catalunya is quite influenced by the rest of the Peninsula, but it's something probably started to happen from 1714, when the Castilians got Barcelona and Catalunya was definetly integrated with the rest. Anyways, specially during Franco's dictature, was when more peoples from other parts of Iberia came there to live. But still can find people who's heritage is 100% Catalan, or in a very high degree.

Also, ethnic Catalans usually have surnames of French origin, like Soler (Soiler) and similars. But I guess this is quite old, and it's perfectly known the Catalan language have several similarities with French, so I'd take this as native. In my opinion, the most ethnic Catalans you can find nowadays are in towns of the Tarragona province (not around the coast), and towns around Central Catalunya. This are regions like the Alt Camp, Conca de Barberà, Segarra (South), Anoia (South), and possibly parts of Urgell.
Interesting information, moltes gràcies :)
 
Adygei look very European and they cluster with Italians. The wrongness of this map, in my opinion, is that it considers to be "European" only the Western, the Eastern and the mediterranean admixtures. What about the Uralic, the Anatolian, the Baltic and other admixtures that are europoid as well?
 
Indeed i consider pure caucasian people look not so completely foreign to at least the look of italians and people from the balkans.
I think that caucasian people are goodlooking too, and many of them seems to be very tall.
I wouldn't distingue a caucasian for an italian if i saw him in italy, probably if he had a bit of a dissimilar look i would think he was from the balkans, but then in italy we have those looks too.

100% agreed. Some Caucasians and some Balkanians would fit without problems in Italy.
 
Because the Finns as I said are too Northern. The closest reference are Lituanians and Belarusians, followed by Russians according to the Doug McDonald plot. I guess it's pretty similar to yours, I don't see all populations clearly, but the vast majority.

Not really, Finns appear isolated, as although they look nordic, genetically they are isolated from the rest of Europe. They neither speak an Indo-European language.
Basically, from what I remember, the repopulation of Europe followed two lines: from West (Spain and Hiberia) in the paleolithic and from Anatolia during the neolitic. Both the admixture are very old and there is no reason to consider the first European and the second not.
 
Adygei look very European and they cluster with Italians. The wrongness of this map, in my opinion, is that it considers to be "European" only the Western, the Eastern and the mediterranean admixtures. What about the Uralic, the Anatolian, the Baltic and other admixtures that are europoid as well?
Out of curiosity, where do Adygei cluster with Italians?
 
Not really, Finns appear isolated, as although they look nordic, genetically they are isolated from the rest of Europe. They neither speak an Indo-European language.
Basically, from what I remember, the repopulation of Europe followed two lines: from West (Spain and Hiberia) in the paleolithic and from Anatolia during the neolitic. Both the admixture are very old and there is no reason to consider the first European and the second not.
The language has nothing to do here, Basques don't speak IE and they usually get the highest European on admixture. It's that simple: the Finns cluster at the top of Northern Europe sligthly deviating towards Asia (small Mongoloid influence), while the others fall totally out being Southeast Europe the closest European reference (very strong mideast), but not the usual proximity you find in neighbour populations. They are quite close and similar to Europe, but not the same.

I consider the second people plain Caucasians or West Asians, there's no better sumary at all.
 
The language has nothing to do here, Basques don't speak IE and they usually get the highest European on admixture. It's that simple: the Finns cluster at the top of Northern Europe sligthly deviating towards Asia (small Mongoloid influence), while the others fall totally out being Southeast Europe the closest European reference (very strong mideast), but not the usual proximity you find in neighbour populations. They are quite close and similar to Europe, but not the same.

I consider the second people plain Caucasians or West Asians, there's no better sumary at all.

Again, Finns appear isolated. Italians, in the maps that show the proximity also to the Balkanian populations, appear close to Greece, Romania and Yugoslavia at east, to Spain and Portugal at west and to France in the North. If we consider also the maps that show also the Middle Eastern and Caucasian peoples, Adygei are the closest to Italians.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/geneticmapofeurope.jpg?w=600&h=392
 
Sorry, Adigey and Italians are quite far away from each other autosomally speaking...

> DodecadOracle("Adygei", k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Adygei" "0"
[2,] "Balkars_Y" "2.2782"
[3,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "3.8923"
[4,] "Chechens_Y" "6.5803"
[5,] "Kumyks_Y" "11.5646"
[6,] "Lezgins" "16.0452"
[7,] "Georgians" "17.311"
[8,] "Armenians" "18.245"
[9,] "Abhkasians_Y" "19.5402"
[10,] "Turks" "22.0068"
[11,] "Nogais_Y" "23.3688"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "24.1895"
[13,] "Armenians_Y" "24.7481"
[14,] "Armenian_D" "25.0346"
[15,] "Kurds_Y" "29.7594"
[16,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "30.0895"
[17,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "30.9443"
[18,] "Georgia_Jews" "31.0673"
[19,] "Assyrian_D" "31.1609"
[20,] "Kurd_D" "31.5734"
[21,] "Iranian_D" "31.6223"
[22,] "Iranian_Jews" "34.3597"
[23,] "Cypriots" "35.3481"
[24,] "Druze" "36.1089"
[25,] "Iraq_Jews" "36.6274"
[26,] "Iranians" "37.027"
[27,] "Turkmens_Y" "37.9041"
[28,] "Lebanese" "37.9861"
[29,] "Greek_D" "38.0726"
[30,] "Syrians" "40.3828"
> DodecadOracle("C_Italian_D", k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "C_Italian_D" "0"
[2,] "O_Italian_D" "4.0037"
[3,] "Tuscan" "5.7105"
[4,] "TSI25" "7.3722"
[5,] "Sicilian_D" "8.0119"
[6,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "8.1456"
[7,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "9.1624"
[8,] "Greek_D" "9.3226"
[9,] "Ashkenazi_D" "10.171"
[10,] "S_Italian_D" "10.3581"
[11,] "N_Italian_D" "15.0413"
[12,] "North_Italian" "15.3245"
[13,] "Sephardic_Jews" "15.7032"
[14,] "Morocco_Jews" "17.6627"
[15,] "Romanians" "19.8562"
[16,] "Bulgarians_Y" "19.9434"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "20.0297"
[18,] "Cypriots" "26.5842"
[19,] "Portuguese_D" "27.3929"
[20,] "Turkish_D" "27.4754"
[21,] "Spaniards" "28.1125"
[22,] "IBS" "28.7962"
[23,] "Spanish_D" "29.9033"
[24,] "Turks" "31.6785"
[25,] "Lebanese" "31.7734"
[26,] "French_D" "32.0284"
[27,] "French" "32.1022"
[28,] "Druze" "34.2462"
[29,] "Syrians" "34.45"
[30,] "Jordanians" "35.0924"
 
DodecadOracle("C_Italian_D",mixedmode=T)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "C_Italian_D" "0"
[2,] "41.5% Sicilian_D + 58.5% Tuscan" "0.68"
[3,] "47.9% Sicilian_D + 52.1% TSI25" "0.9226"
[4,] "41.9% Ashkenazi_D + 58.1% TSI25" "1.0218"
[5,] "41% S_Italian_Sicilian_D + 59% Tuscan" "1.0858"
[6,] "35.7% Ashkenazi_D + 64.3% Tuscan" "1.1041"
[7,] "65% S_Italian_Sicilian_D + 35% N_Italian_D" "1.1229"
[8,] "59.3% S_Italian_D + 40.7% N_Italian_D" "1.1851"
[9,] "47.4% S_Italian_Sicilian_D + 52.6% TSI25" "1.2315"
[10,] "73.8% Tuscan + 26.2% Sephardic_Jews" "1.338"
> DodecadOracle("Adygei",mixedmode=T)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Adygei" "0"
[2,] "77.7% Balkars_Y + 22.3% Chechens_Y" "1.3366"
[3,] "8.6% Lezgins + 91.4% Balkars_Y" "1.7054"
[4,] "0.9% Brahui + 99.1% Balkars_Y" "2.1487"
[5,] "0.9% Balochi + 99.1% Balkars_Y" "2.1512"
[6,] "0.9% Makrani + 99.1% Balkars_Y" "2.1627"
[7,] "0.8% Lithuanians + 99.2% Balkars_Y" "2.1918"
[8,] "0.8% Lithuanian_D + 99.2% Balkars_Y" "2.1928"
[9,] "1% Pathan + 99% Balkars_Y" "2.1952"
[10,] "95.1% Balkars_Y + 4.9% Kumyks_Y" "2.201"
 
Interesting information, moltes gràcies :)

neither french surnames nor french language - they are of their own, latinized people in an intermediary position between old spanish latin languages (not the castillan which presents some links with gascon, basque and other unclear substratum) and old occitan language, but nearer to south-west occitan.
 
neither french surnames nor french language - they are of their own, latinized people in an intermediary position between old spanish latin languages (not the castillan which presents some links with gascon, basque and other unclear substratum) and old occitan language, but nearer to south-west occitan.
Thanks, Moesan, yes, I know. Since learning languages is my hobby I even speak basic Catalan :)
 
Again, Finns appear isolated. Italians, in the maps that show the proximity also to the Balkanian populations, appear close to Greece, Romania and Yugoslavia at east, to Spain and Portugal at west and to France in the North. If we consider also the maps that show also the Middle Eastern and Caucasian peoples, Adygei are the closest to Italians.

http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/geneticmapofeurope.jpg?w=600&h=392
As Kardu showed now, no significant proximity between Italians and the Adiyei. Even the Greeks are far away as I pointed above about Southeast Europe, so I'm afraid your objections are not proving the opposite.
 
Agree with guys here, there is no proximity between Adygei and Italians. The Adygei are a Caucasus population, they cluster near Georgians and Turks, not with italians.
 
Agree with guys here, there is no proximity between Adygei and Italians. The Adygei are a Caucasus population, they cluster near Georgians and Turks, not with italians.
Even between Adygei and Georgians there is a significant distance, although of course they are much closer to us than to Italians :)

[1,] "Georgians" "0"
[2,] "Abhkasians_Y" "3.0806"
[3,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "15.4032"
[4,] "Balkars_Y" "17.1225"
[5,] "Adygei" "17.311"
[6,] "Armenians" "22.0152"
[7,] "Chechens_Y" "22.3917"
[8,] "Armenians_Y" "25.2067"
[9,] "Armenian_D" "25.5484"
[10,] "Kumyks_Y" "26.0678"
 
Sorry, Adigey and Italians are quite far away from each other autosomally speaking...

> DodecadOracle("Adygei", k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Adygei" "0"
[2,] "Balkars_Y" "2.2782"
[3,] "North_Ossetians_Y" "3.8923"
[4,] "Chechens_Y" "6.5803"
[5,] "Kumyks_Y" "11.5646"
[6,] "Lezgins" "16.0452"
[7,] "Georgians" "17.311"
[8,] "Armenians" "18.245"
[9,] "Abhkasians_Y" "19.5402"
[10,] "Turks" "22.0068"
[11,] "Nogais_Y" "23.3688"
[12,] "Turkish_D" "24.1895"
[13,] "Armenians_Y" "24.7481"
[14,] "Armenian_D" "25.0346"
[15,] "Kurds_Y" "29.7594"
[16,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "30.0895"
[17,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "30.9443"
[18,] "Georgia_Jews" "31.0673"
[19,] "Assyrian_D" "31.1609"
[20,] "Kurd_D" "31.5734"
[21,] "Iranian_D" "31.6223"
[22,] "Iranian_Jews" "34.3597"
[23,] "Cypriots" "35.3481"
[24,] "Druze" "36.1089"
[25,] "Iraq_Jews" "36.6274"
[26,] "Iranians" "37.027"
[27,] "Turkmens_Y" "37.9041"
[28,] "Lebanese" "37.9861"
[29,] "Greek_D" "38.0726"
[30,] "Syrians" "40.3828"
> DodecadOracle("C_Italian_D", k=30)
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "C_Italian_D" "0"
[2,] "O_Italian_D" "4.0037"
[3,] "Tuscan" "5.7105"
[4,] "TSI25" "7.3722"
[5,] "Sicilian_D" "8.0119"
[6,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "8.1456"
[7,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "9.1624"
[8,] "Greek_D" "9.3226"
[9,] "Ashkenazi_D" "10.171"
[10,] "S_Italian_D" "10.3581"
[11,] "N_Italian_D" "15.0413"
[12,] "North_Italian" "15.3245"
[13,] "Sephardic_Jews" "15.7032"
[14,] "Morocco_Jews" "17.6627"
[15,] "Romanians" "19.8562"
[16,] "Bulgarians_Y" "19.9434"
[17,] "Bulgarian_D" "20.0297"
[18,] "Cypriots" "26.5842"
[19,] "Portuguese_D" "27.3929"
[20,] "Turkish_D" "27.4754"
[21,] "Spaniards" "28.1125"
[22,] "IBS" "28.7962"
[23,] "Spanish_D" "29.9033"
[24,] "Turks" "31.6785"
[25,] "Lebanese" "31.7734"
[26,] "French_D" "32.0284"
[27,] "French" "32.1022"
[28,] "Druze" "34.2462"
[29,] "Syrians" "34.45"
[30,] "Jordanians" "35.0924"

I had in mind a map that I have found once on the net, but I don't know if it is reliable and anyway I cannot find it anymore. So thank you for the info. So who are the closest populations to Italians?
 
The closest would be Greeks
 
It depends on the kind of Italians. Southern Italians for sure have a genetic overlap with the Greeks, and North Italians tend to be quite close to the Iberians in a lesser degree. Tuscans, Central Italians, etc., are in the middle, just check the Dodecad Oracle and see what they get.
 
No way georgians look more european than Sardinians. To start with, georgians genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks, and also look similar to them (unless we talk about russian admixed georgians) while Sardinians cluster with Europeans and look mainly euro-mediterranean, maybe more archaic because of their strong palaeolithic ancestry.

I understand the feeling of these people of the Caucasus or Anatolia:anthropologically speaking they are 'caucasians' and 'caucasians' is the same general meaning as evolved 'white type' - all ancestors of Western Europe came from these areas! for my point of view, the majority of the 'western asian' and even 'south-west asian' and a lot of the 'north-west Africa' are genes of 'europoids' - if you want to "castrate lice"and be logical you have to break the 'european pole genes' down and to separate 'Western Europe' and 'medridterranean' and 'Eastern Europe' poles
it's my feeling
 
LOL a typical comment from an complexed italian from mainland, that have difficult to accept that sardinians have less extraeuropean admixture than all other italians

moreover do you consider exotic from an italian point of view those sardinian musicians? where do you think to live? in Sweden? LOL

one of those musicians is even a south western european cromagnoid (Berid), ancient sub race spread also in Iberia, so they have more western looking than a southern italian, sardinians are pred. western mediterraneans, southern italians have high east mediterranean and armenoid component so they look much more caucasian or middle eastern.

unfortunately i can't still post links or photos, but when i will can it, i will post some exotic mainland italians, to understand that your attempt to consider sardinians like not europid exotic aliens is ridicolous!

infact i like sardinian people (for their mentality too wich isn't southern italian exagerated, but balanced and very educated mostly when they emigrate in another region) and also for their beautiful looks wich i don't consider swarthy.
i have even friends with sardinean origins
 
KnovasActually Catalunya is quite influenced by the rest of the Peninsula, but it's something probably started to happen from 1714, when the Castilians got Barcelona and Catalunya was definetly integrated with the rest. Anyways, specially during Franco's dictature, was when more peoples from other parts of Iberia came there to live. But still can find people who's heritage is 100% Catalan, or in a very high degree.

Also, ethnic Catalans usually have surnames of French origin, like Soler (Soiler) and similars. But I guess this is quite old, and it's perfectly known the Catalan language have several similarities with French, so I'd take this as native. In my opinion, the most ethnic Catalans you can find nowadays are in towns of the Tarragona province (not around the coast), and towns around Central Catalunya. This are regions like the Alt Camp, Conca de Barberà, Segarra (South), Anoia (South), and possibly parts of Urgell.



These questions are very outlandish, looking at this map of Europe in 1235 Catalonia simply does not exist.


52275814.png
 

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