Z196 needs to be in the literature, alongside its brother clades U152 and L21

[razyn]

Here is an FTDNA SNP report page that includes a count of the number of Z196 tests completed (currently 263) and the number that were derived, i.e. Z196+ (currently 71):

http://tinyurl.com/7b5v68x

Within that report, clicking on the blue numbers will take you to all sorts of genetic detail about the Z196 SNP. I assume that the number of tested samples will grow, and the count I have mentioned in this post only refers to 9 January 2012.

 

[MOESAN]

The Old Norway Project has probably the most representative and granular (SNP-wise) view of Scandinavian Y DNA. Jean M has it in a chart at this post.
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/16556-old-norway-project/page__view__findpost__p__282312

You can see the whole presentation as well as this map (slide 38) here:
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/Gothenburg_13Oct2011.pdf

I think the patterns of R1b distribution are interesting. You can see that P312 has a presence, including L21 even east into Ostergotland. The ratio of M222 to L21 is lower than in Ireland so I think this indicates the impact of thralls being brought back by Vikings was not that large. U106 is heaviest in Denmark and to the eastern side. L21 is heavier to the west. P312* is fairly scattered. This is where Z196* would sit, hidden in the P312* numbers. SRY2627(M167) is also shown, and of course that is a Z196 subclade.

An interesting tidbit is that they found one (just one) M153 person, which is a subclade of Z196. Of course, M153 is supposed to be marker only found in Basques.

thanks for answer - but I can no more go on the DNA Forum (I don't know why, everytime I try to get in it answers me: 'error' ...?)

 

[razyn]

Anyone in the North/South Cluster of P312 (discussed in post #17 above) may be interested in the fact that FTDNA has just made available a SNP test for Z209. In the near future, I am told (by the FTDNA help desk), they expect to offer Z278 and Z214. All three of these SNPs are under Z196* and not under L176.2. It is to be hoped that testing them will facilitate the genetic and geographical sorting of which parts of Z196 did, or did not, go to Iberia -- resulting, among other effects, in the high rate of M153 observed among Basques. Z278 has previously been described as rs1469371, and is a couple of levels above M153, but probably below the principal defining SNP of the N/S Cluster. One of the advantages of establishing separate levels on the two main branches of Z196 is the fact that it will become possible to perform interclade variance calculations within Z196. These calculations lead to more precise dating of phylogenetic events, and can (especially when correlated with linguistic and archaeological data) influence our perceptions of the time and direction of major population movements in the very distant past.

Added 6 March: the FTDNA Advanced Orders menu now shows five of the new Z-series SNPs in this sequence (Z196+ but L176.2-) available for testing: Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

 

[razyn]

By the way, do you know if Z278 will be entering the ISOGG anytime soon?

As I understand it, ISOGG doesn't show things that haven't been confirmed by SNP testing. Until this week, there was no test available for Z278 (previously called rs1469371). It is now testable. Presumably there will be some positive results in the near future, and then this SNP will be displayed on the ISOGG tree -- somewhere below Z196, and somewhere above M153.

 

[pipinnacanus]

In the previous message, below the Rocca diagram one may also find some of the variance statistics lately compiled by Mikewww (who posts here occasionally -- but on DNA-Forums quite often; and perhaps most usefully, also on the "R-P312 Project" list in Yahoo Groups).

I believe these links will serve to introduce the subject, and some of the people who have been working on it. There is of course a broader discussion about the TMRCA dates for these clades, and it may be a little early yet to make very sweeping statements about that. Until the subsets of R-P312 can be dated a little more confidently -- and with a little more general agreement -- it's premature to link Z196 (or any of them) with ancient cultures known primarily from their ceramics and graves, ancient language families, early ports on the Baltic, and so on. But it's only a little premature.

Let me say one thing. A honest man will tell you not only what he knows, but he will admit what he does not know.

ANYONE telling you that they 'solved' TMRCA or have dated clade with certainty, etc.. is either tricking themselves, or tricking others. These are the same people claiming they can place the unrecorded Thracian language or Dacian language from two or three words or named passed down through time from a already mixed culture through other cultures.

It is simply not honestly possible now. end of story. anyone telling you they know secret facts because well.. they know it, is full of themselve and seeking to gain some audience for their reason.

Y-STR variance of Busby et al. (2011) dataset
I calculated the Y-STR variance of the Busby et al. (2011) dataset, for both the 10 and 15 Y-STR sets, as well as 4- and 5-most "linear" subsets thereof. Generation length of 31.5 years is used for the calendar year estimates.

My position that Y-STRs are effectively dead for age estimation stands, but I thought it'd be a good exercise to do this, as my personal adieu to more than a decade of Y-STRs: they didn't live up to their promise, but, indirectly, they helped create an entire field of "genetic prehistory" that will live on after their demise.

The greatest contribution of the Busby et al. (2011) paper is that it has cured the naivete of some who bought into the "more STRs = more accuracy" scheme. After this paper all Y-STR based estimates (including my own, above) are suspect.

If you want talk of Coon, and skull shape and whimsical opinion, then there is no reason for any dna or science you can simply make up what you like. If you claim science then you cannot create a fact that is not able to replicate under scientific condition by those who use the same formula and seek to prove or disprove it.
People are impatient and do not want to wait so they make they own fact and announce this discovery and hope that acolytes will loudly shout down any cautions.

 

[MOESAN]

the old norway project has probably the most representative and granular (snp-wise) view of scandinavian y dna. Jean m has it in a chart at this post.
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/16556-old-norway-project/page__view__findpost__p__282312

you can see the whole presentation as well as this map (slide 38) here:
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/-sczsteve/gothenburg_13oct2011.pdf

i think the patterns of r1b distribution are interesting. You can see that p312 has a presence, including l21 even east into ostergotland. The ratio of m222 to l21 is lower than in ireland so i think this indicates the impact of thralls being brought back by vikings was not that large. U106 is heaviest in denmark and to the eastern side. L21 is heavier to the west. P312* is fairly scattered. This is where z196* would sit, hidden in the p312* numbers. Sry2627(m167) is also shown, and of course that is a z196 subclade.

An interesting tidbit is that they found one (just one) m153 person, which is a subclade of z196. Of course, m153 is supposed to be marker only found in basques.

thanks i'll look at that!

 

[razyn]

Anyone in the North/South Cluster of P312 (discussed in post #17 above) may be interested in the fact that FTDNA has just made available a SNP test for Z209.

Added 6 March: the FTDNA Advanced Orders menu now shows five of the new Z-series SNPs in this sequence (Z196+ but L176.2-) available for testing: Z209, Z220, Z216, Z278 (aka rs1469371), Z214.

Of the first fourteen reported results for the Z209 SNP test, twelve were positive; and all of these twelve had the characteristic off-modal STR marker pattern that has defined the North/South Cluster: DYS437=14, DYS448=18, and GATA H4=10. (The only exception is one person who had only tested 12 markers -- so he had no score for H4.) One person who tested Z209- has DYS437=16, and thus does not match this cluster. For the moment, he remains Z196*.

It is still early to report on the SNPs downstream from Z209. One N/S cluster member has tested Z220+, a couple of unidentified people are Z220-, and several tests for one or both of these SNPs have not yet reported results. But the fact that this first group came in four weeks ahead of the prediction (for Batch 454) is a good sign.

Z209 already has a new subclade group (Qaa) within the "R-P312 and Subclades" haplogroup project, found here:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/

At that site, click "Y-DNA Results" in the menu bar, select "colorized," and reset the Page Size to 1500, if you want to see everybody in the same spreadsheet. (That makes it easier to search for a name or kit number.) Comparison of these few Z209 haplotypes already shows a great deal of variance, and a wide distribution from northeastern to southwestern Europe.

 

[Taranis]

If you recall the paper by Myres et al. (2010), it had a distribution map of R1b-S116 excluding it's major subclades U152 and L21, and it showed a peak around western Iberia. In that context, it would be very interesting to see how much of this S116* is actually Z196+

If the Stelae People theory is correct, I would suspect that western Iberia has a lot of R1b-S116 that is not part of the Z196 subclade, and I think that the distribution of Z196 would be a great way to test it. Alternatively, if it is not, I think it is more safe to assume that S116 entered western Europe (in particular Iberia) by a different route.

 

[Dubhthach]

If you recall the paper by Myres et al. (2010), it had a distribution map of R1b-S116 excluding it's major subclades U152 and L21, and it showed a peak around western Iberia. In that context, it would be very interesting to see how much of this S116* is actually Z196+If the Stelae People theory is correct, I would suspect that western Iberia has a lot of R1b-S116 that is not part of the Z196 subclade, and I think that the distribution of Z196 would be a great way to test it. Alternatively, if it is not, I think it is more safe to assume that S116 entered western Europe (in particular Iberia) by a different route.

As Razyn has pointed out there is a new SNP above Z196 that is known as DF27. Richard Rocca did an analysis of 1000 genomes data from Iberia and posted it on World Families.----SNP FrequencyDF27+ 44.4% (12 of 27) ... DF27* 14.8% (4 of 27) ... Z196+ 25.9% (7 of 27) ... Z225+ 3.7% (1 of 27)L21+ 7.4% (2 of 27)U152+ 7.4% (2 of 27)L23* 3.7% (1 of 27)P312* 3.7% (1 of 27)U106+ 3.7% (1 of 27)Total R1b 70.4% (19 of 27)----- Big chunk of that DF27+ was Z196-

 

[razyn]

I haven't posted on this for about ten weeks, but a lot of testing has been done in that time. Thomas Krahn has updated the draft tree at FTDNA today, and it is expected that the ISOGG tree will be very similarly updated in the near future. Here is a link to the most current version:

http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=99813460

Note that the level under Z196, that has Z209 and Z220, is what has been known for several years as the "North/South cluster." Several steps lower (and younger) is M153.

All of the Z196 phylogeny -- which this thread originally addressed -- falls under the newly testable SNP DF27. That one seems to rival U152 and L21 in age and importance.

 

[razyn]

All of the Z196 phylogeny -- which this thread originally addressed -- falls under the newly testable SNP DF27. That one seems to rival U152 and L21 in age and importance.

Results for DF27, parent of Z196 -- and for its numerous subclades (the SNPs for most of them begin with the letter Z) that have become testable at FTDNA since this Z196 thread was begun -- are easiest to find in this FTDNA project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/

In that large project, if you set your display to 5000 instead of 500 results, the tested DF27 guys (in green) are currently in groups P, Pa, Paa, Paaa, Paba, Pabb, Pabc, Pabe, Pabf, Pabg, Pac, Paca, Pacb, Pacc, Pacd, and Pb. If they ever get a positive test for Z225, that will be a new group, also under DF27. And so on.

This glosses over the fact that most of the P312* guys who are currently grouped under countries associated with their MDKA are also going to be DF27; but if they were SNP tested, it was with a Deep Clade test. That test (still) only knows about three or four of these SNPs (L176.2, SRY2627, M153, and possibly L165). The majority of them need to be ordered as individual SNPs, and that process has only been underway for a few months.

I believe that I have neglected to report here that the ISOGG tree for Haplogroup R was radically updated in late June, so the new, much more complex and detailed phylogeny of DF27 and its subclades may now be seen there. The latest version dates from, let's see... day before yesterday (for this haplogroup):

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html