razyn
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- Y-DNA haplogroup
- RP312 DF27 Z196 Z220
In recent weeks I have tried to introduce this newly identified SNP a little more widely, by posting a few notes about it on a couple of threads here, about "Lack of G2a in Basque" and "L176.2: when and where did it originate." Now that I'm able to post links, I think I'll see if a dedicated thread about this SNP stirs any broader interest.
In one of my earlier posts, I linked a couple of discussion threads at DNA-Forums that have been very active. They are OK for members there, but I have just realized that the forum threads in English are not open-access. One has to sign in to read them. So on this thread I plan to link to some of the same material on the French forum, which may be seen by anybody.
Discovered via the 1000 Genomes project about five months ago, Z196 is one of the oldest and largest clades of R-P312. It encompasses two previously identified large subclades: L176.2 (and its descendants, SRY2627 and L165); and, in another line, the North-South cluster (described from its off-modal STR values by Ken Nordtvedt five years ago) -- under which may be found the previously known SNP rs1469371 (newly designated Z278) and, under that, the "Basque marker" M153. Z196* also includes SNP-tested people who do not fall into any of the above-named subclades, or clusters -- and whose highly disparate STR values are among the indicators of its age.
Because some of this information is not well known (and perhaps none is yet cited in any academic literature) I shall introduce the topic just as it was introduced to the genetic genealogy community in the spring of 2011. One of the open threads about it may be read in the following archived RootsWeb message thread. [If you follow the thread, ignore the secondary discussion of "RecLOH Questions" -- about seven messages out of twenty, that were somehow posted to this "Z196, the third group" thread.]
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2011-05/1304616463
After SNP testing for Z196 became available at FTDNA in mid-May, a project was set up on DNA-Forums (by Vince Tilroe) to track the results. I have previously linked it; and as I said it's in one of the "protected" forums (in English), so you can only read it if you are signed in there. It has nearly 600 messages, by now. Many of them might easily be ignored, as they just have to do with data and tiny clues that were slowly trickling in. Anyway, it's by far the most comprehensive online discussion to date, and if interested one may view it here:
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/15289-z196-snp-results/
By way of verifying that the stated phylogeny is being taken seriously, here are links to the ISOGG tree, and to Thomas Krahn's "Draft" tree at FTDNA. Note that on the ISOGG one, you can scroll down to a collection of online articles and hot links, some of which are highly relevant, but are not about Z196 per se. (I don't believe anyone has yet written an article about it.) On Krahn's tree, hover your cursor over the colored star beside a SNP name, and you may read how recently that SNP has been placed on the tree (or moved to its present spot on the tree).
ISOGG tree, current: http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
Thomas Krahn's draft tree: http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root
One of the most interesting visual depictions of the complexity of Z196 is Rich Rocca's diagram showing the new SNPs of P312, most of which aren't yet on the ISOGG tree nor on Thomas Krahn's Draft tree. (Those two only show SNPs that are being tested -- not all that have been discovered, via 1000 Genomes or WTY tests.) On this tree, the NS cluster would be around [the untested SNPs] Z274, Z294 -- in that line, anyway, probably just a little below Z196 and a lot above M153. An early version of it has been posted here recently; but at this point I shall link to a thread on the open, French language forum at DNA-Forums, on which Rocca's current diagram may be seen without logging on as a member:
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/14913-nouveaux-snps-sous-p312/page__view__findpost__p__270416
In the previous message, below the Rocca diagram one may also find some of the variance statistics lately compiled by Mikewww (who posts here occasionally -- but on DNA-Forums quite often; and perhaps most usefully, also on the "R-P312 Project" list in Yahoo Groups).
One more forum link that I inadvertently omitted, and have added in edit: this is the main Z196 thread at World Families, on a list that is moderated by the administrator of the big "R-P312 and Subclades" Y-DNA project at FTDNA. The pace or volume of posting has been less intense than on a couple of other forums, but it began in early April, and has not gone dormant. A somewhat different mix of specialties and interests may be found by comparing the content on several such lists:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9930.0
I believe these links will serve to introduce the subject, and some of the people who have been working on it. There is of course a broader discussion about the TMRCA dates for these clades, and it may be a little early yet to make very sweeping statements about that. Until the subsets of R-P312 can be dated a little more confidently -- and with a little more general agreement -- it's premature to link Z196 (or any of them) with ancient cultures known primarily from their ceramics and graves, ancient language families, early ports on the Baltic, and so on. But it's only a little premature.
Anyway, you won't see anything about it (yet) in the usual sources such as Jean Manco's "Peopling of Europe" site; Maciamo's map section here; the often-cited and much debated studies of Myres, Balaresque, Klyosov, Busby et al; or the books so far published by Bryan Sykes, Barry Cunliffe, and David W. Anthony. It's brand new stuff. One of these days, it will be important stuff; and when you finally read about Z196 in a journal, or see a map of its distribution or variance for the first time, you can say, "I knew that."
Won't that be fun?
In one of my earlier posts, I linked a couple of discussion threads at DNA-Forums that have been very active. They are OK for members there, but I have just realized that the forum threads in English are not open-access. One has to sign in to read them. So on this thread I plan to link to some of the same material on the French forum, which may be seen by anybody.
Discovered via the 1000 Genomes project about five months ago, Z196 is one of the oldest and largest clades of R-P312. It encompasses two previously identified large subclades: L176.2 (and its descendants, SRY2627 and L165); and, in another line, the North-South cluster (described from its off-modal STR values by Ken Nordtvedt five years ago) -- under which may be found the previously known SNP rs1469371 (newly designated Z278) and, under that, the "Basque marker" M153. Z196* also includes SNP-tested people who do not fall into any of the above-named subclades, or clusters -- and whose highly disparate STR values are among the indicators of its age.
Because some of this information is not well known (and perhaps none is yet cited in any academic literature) I shall introduce the topic just as it was introduced to the genetic genealogy community in the spring of 2011. One of the open threads about it may be read in the following archived RootsWeb message thread. [If you follow the thread, ignore the secondary discussion of "RecLOH Questions" -- about seven messages out of twenty, that were somehow posted to this "Z196, the third group" thread.]
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/genealogy-dna/2011-05/1304616463
After SNP testing for Z196 became available at FTDNA in mid-May, a project was set up on DNA-Forums (by Vince Tilroe) to track the results. I have previously linked it; and as I said it's in one of the "protected" forums (in English), so you can only read it if you are signed in there. It has nearly 600 messages, by now. Many of them might easily be ignored, as they just have to do with data and tiny clues that were slowly trickling in. Anyway, it's by far the most comprehensive online discussion to date, and if interested one may view it here:
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/15289-z196-snp-results/
By way of verifying that the stated phylogeny is being taken seriously, here are links to the ISOGG tree, and to Thomas Krahn's "Draft" tree at FTDNA. Note that on the ISOGG one, you can scroll down to a collection of online articles and hot links, some of which are highly relevant, but are not about Z196 per se. (I don't believe anyone has yet written an article about it.) On Krahn's tree, hover your cursor over the colored star beside a SNP name, and you may read how recently that SNP has been placed on the tree (or moved to its present spot on the tree).
ISOGG tree, current: http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html
Thomas Krahn's draft tree: http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=root
One of the most interesting visual depictions of the complexity of Z196 is Rich Rocca's diagram showing the new SNPs of P312, most of which aren't yet on the ISOGG tree nor on Thomas Krahn's Draft tree. (Those two only show SNPs that are being tested -- not all that have been discovered, via 1000 Genomes or WTY tests.) On this tree, the NS cluster would be around [the untested SNPs] Z274, Z294 -- in that line, anyway, probably just a little below Z196 and a lot above M153. An early version of it has been posted here recently; but at this point I shall link to a thread on the open, French language forum at DNA-Forums, on which Rocca's current diagram may be seen without logging on as a member:
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/topic/14913-nouveaux-snps-sous-p312/page__view__findpost__p__270416
In the previous message, below the Rocca diagram one may also find some of the variance statistics lately compiled by Mikewww (who posts here occasionally -- but on DNA-Forums quite often; and perhaps most usefully, also on the "R-P312 Project" list in Yahoo Groups).
One more forum link that I inadvertently omitted, and have added in edit: this is the main Z196 thread at World Families, on a list that is moderated by the administrator of the big "R-P312 and Subclades" Y-DNA project at FTDNA. The pace or volume of posting has been less intense than on a couple of other forums, but it began in early April, and has not gone dormant. A somewhat different mix of specialties and interests may be found by comparing the content on several such lists:
http://www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php?topic=9930.0
I believe these links will serve to introduce the subject, and some of the people who have been working on it. There is of course a broader discussion about the TMRCA dates for these clades, and it may be a little early yet to make very sweeping statements about that. Until the subsets of R-P312 can be dated a little more confidently -- and with a little more general agreement -- it's premature to link Z196 (or any of them) with ancient cultures known primarily from their ceramics and graves, ancient language families, early ports on the Baltic, and so on. But it's only a little premature.
Anyway, you won't see anything about it (yet) in the usual sources such as Jean Manco's "Peopling of Europe" site; Maciamo's map section here; the often-cited and much debated studies of Myres, Balaresque, Klyosov, Busby et al; or the books so far published by Bryan Sykes, Barry Cunliffe, and David W. Anthony. It's brand new stuff. One of these days, it will be important stuff; and when you finally read about Z196 in a journal, or see a map of its distribution or variance for the first time, you can say, "I knew that."
Won't that be fun?
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