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Thread: Dodecad euro7

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    2.4% Sub-Saharan in Spain is completely exagerated. I don't know the pattern used in the study, but even the figures for Tuscany and Greece are too high. The WEAC Calculator with very low ressolution (4 groups), showed 1% aprox in Spain, and when including North+East African the figure goes near 0%. There was a post made by Dienekes' critisizing a similar study showing Sub-Saharan percents in Italy, Spain, Sardinia, etc, telling how more or less they could have obtained the figures (in the same line of what you posted). The methodology seems very similar in this one due to the high percents, I'm sure he would say the same thing. Anyways, it's true there's some Sub-Saharan element in almost all Southern Europe, but It's not significant in average.
    I understand the reservations and tend to remain somewhat undecided regarding the Moorjani et al. figures and cannot help but notice that the same snps are found in significant frequencies within NW African (Mozabite) and Palaeo-African population groups used in Dodecad. There is even overlap between Middle Eastern and African snps, it's very messy but illustrative of the fact that people do not stay put for very long. You can see this for yourself by comparing African to NW African in the SNP Map based on Dodecad. The analysis highlights all snps that are found in an individual and compares their frequencies in the population groups chosen. If one choose African, you will find the relevant snps highlighted. If you input NW African the same happens, with mostly the same snps as the African run. There appears to be a significant amount of overlap with regards to African components, despite the impressive amount of diversity within the African continent.

    If you want, try doing a 'bychr' Weac run to view individual chromosomes. You may see something interesting with the fluctuations of admixture percentages.

    The Moorjani et al. 2.4% is a mean with a standard deviation of 0.3%, additionally I would think that the Sub-Saharan they refer to includes all African snps, irrespective of whether they may be found elsewhere in high frequencies. They mislead the reader somewhat but the point is still the same, they simply overemphasized the African element a bit. I'm not concerned about this.

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    My data according to this calculator (I tested my dna through Geno 2.0), in descending order:

    Northwestern 26.50
    Southeastern 25.99
    Southwestern 23.89
    Northeastern 14.53
    Caucasus 7.94
    African 1.16
    Far_Asian 0.00

    Are they typical for a northern italian, or not? My haplogroups are common.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    My data according to this calculator (I tested my dna through Geno 2.0), in descending order:

    Northwestern 26.50
    Southeastern 25.99
    Southwestern 23.89
    Northeastern 14.53
    Caucasus 7.94
    African 1.16
    Far_Asian 0.00

    Are they typical for a northern italian, or not? My haplogroups are common.
    Do you prefer to be special or you want to blend in?

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    My data according to this calculator (I tested my dna through Geno 2.0), in descending order:

    Northwestern 26.50
    Southeastern 25.99
    Southwestern 23.89
    Northeastern 14.53
    Caucasus 7.94
    African 1.16
    Far_Asian 0.00

    Are they typical for a northern italian, or not? My haplogroups are common.
    Its a calculator from an internet Blog and you can find all its results on p.1;
    (incl. two North Italian results);
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-.../admixture.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do you prefer to be special or you want to blend in?
    That's not my question :)

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Its a calculator from an internet Blog and you can find all its results on p.1;
    (incl. two North Italian results);
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F9XoyN2wE-.../admixture.png
    Thanks. It seems I'm quite average.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Thanks. It seems I'm quite average.
    Actually, although your numbers definitely have a "Northern Italian" look to them, they are a bit different from the published averages for northern Italians.

    Your Northeastern number is very high, for example, especially for someone from Liguria, and yet the Caucasus number is a little high for a northerner as well, and I've never seen a Ligurian or Lombard or Tuscan for that matter score an African number. The only "northern Italian" group that seems to score an African percentage is the OT group. (They get .8 for it as an average.) I just assumed that was a group of mixed southern and northern Italians, but Sile posted that they're from the far northeastern mountainous areas, near Austria. I have no idea what population movement could have been responsible for it, but the neighboring Tyrol also harbors some rather "exotic" clusters for that geographical area. I mention it because I think I recall that you posted that one of your grandparents is from the northeast? Perhaps from that area?

    Here are the actual averages from Dodecad "Euro 7" for the northern Italians.

    HGDP sample/Bergamo
    SW 34.3
    NW 31
    SE 27.9
    NE 4.8
    Caucasus 2
    Far Asia 0
    Africa 0

    Dodecad Project North Italians
    NW 31.4
    SE 28.8
    SW 27.9
    NE 9.4
    Caucasus 2.5
    Far Asia 0
    Africa 0

    For comparison, these are the numbers for the HGDP Tuscans (not the Firenze sample)
    SE 35.2
    SW 30.2
    NW 24.1
    NE 4.7
    Caucasus 5.6
    Far Asia .2
    African 0

    My personal opinion is that the Dodecad numbers seem accurate for the Italians if consistency of result and the clines generated are any indication. If you go to the spreadsheet and look at the numbers for all the Italian groups, you can see how the averages reflect very well the differing histories of the various areas.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    Btw, I can't explain it, but I don't think the .2 Far Asian for the Tuscans is a fluke. I've seen Tuscans and part Tuscans get .2 Far Asian on 23andme as well. I get it myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Btw, I can't explain it, but I don't think the .2 Far Asian for the Tuscans is a fluke. I've seen Tuscans and part Tuscans get .2 Far Asian on 23andme as well. I get it myself.
    Every 5th person on the planet is Chinese;

    And that is what Sile posted about the 5 O_Italians:

    As for the O_Italian_D population, it stands for Other Italian. Thus it consists of all ethnic Italian Dodecad participants who don't belong to a regional Italian Dodecad population (e.g., C_Italian_D).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Every 5th person on the planet is Chinese;

    And that is what Sile posted about the 5 O_Italians:

    As for the O_Italian_D population, it stands for Other Italian. Thus it consists of all ethnic Italian Dodecad participants who don't belong to a regional Italian Dodecad population (e.g., C_Italian_D).
    I'm afraid I have to say that is a singularly silly and rude response, especially coming from a poster like you. While one fifth of the world may indeed be Chinese, most Europeans DO NOT score significant Far Asian percentages, just as most Chinese do not score Southwest European, as just one example. In terms of Italians, we VERY RARELY get Far Asian percentages, unlike northeastern Europeans, and if we do they're at lower levels. Are we clear?

    As for the composition of the OT, Dienekes has always refused to comment. The statement I quoted about them was indeed made, if not by Sile, by someone else who claimed to know the members of that group. Since you question it, I will attempt to find the source. I AM NOT in the habit of making up facts. I remember it precisely because it seemed so strange. If it isn't true, that actually would make more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I'm afraid I have to say that is a singularly silly and rude response, especially coming from a poster like you. While one fifth of the world may indeed be Chinese, most Europeans DO NOT score Far Asian percentages, just as most Chinese do not score Southwest European, as just one example. In terms of Italians, we VERY RARELY get Far Asian percentages, unlike northeastern Europeans. Are we clear?


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for the composition of the OT, Dienekes has always refused to comment. The statement I quoted about them was indeed made, if not by Sile, by someone else who claimed to know the members of that group. Since you question it, I will attempt to find the source. I AM NOT in the habit of making up facts. I remember it precisely because it seemed so strange. If it isn't true, that actually would make more sense.
    Than ask Sile himself;
    And all of those samples/groups marked with a _D are not from an academic data source to begin with but from an internet Blogger - in opposition to those samples without the _D (who are from an academic source); So i wouldnt get so serious over them either way ... ..... ....

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Actually, although your numbers definitely have a "Northern Italian" look to them, they are a bit different from the published averages for northern Italians.

    Your Northeastern number is very high, for example, especially for someone from Liguria, and yet the Caucasus number is a little high for a northerner as well, and I've never seen a Ligurian or Lombard or Tuscan for that matter score an African number. The only "northern Italian" group that seems to score an African percentage is the OT group. (They get .8 for it as an average.) I just assumed that was a group of mixed southern and northern Italians, but Sile posted that they're from the far northeastern mountainous areas, near Austria. I have no idea what population movement could have been responsible for it, but the neighboring Tyrol also harbors some rather "exotic" clusters for that geographical area. I mention it because I think I recall that you posted that one of your grandparents is from the northeast? Perhaps from that area?

    Here are the actual averages from Dodecad "Euro 7" for the northern Italians.

    HGDP sample/Bergamo
    SW 34.3
    NW 31
    SE 27.9
    NE 4.8
    Caucasus 2
    Far Asia 0
    Africa 0

    Dodecad Project North Italians
    NW 31.4
    SE 28.8
    SW 27.9
    NE 9.4
    Caucasus 2.5
    Far Asia 0
    Africa 0
    I'm not fully ligurian indeed. My maternal grandfather was from Padua, Veneto. One of my maternal great grandmothers was from the emilian appennine near Modena. My paternal grandma was from Parma, Emilia. My part venetian ancestry could explain the higher than average north eastern euro, I suppose.
    My "african" 1% is a total mystery to me. Other Dodecad calculators call it "palaeo african" so it should be a very ancient component. I have two theories: maybe it's just some noise (other calculators even found arctic and amerindian...) you know Dodecad is not a scientific project, just amateur. Since other calculators call it "paeleo african", maybe it's a very ancestral component which survived to millennia of admixture instead, only God knows why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    only God knows why.
    Ask him what the terms mean or just get tested by a proper institution instead of an internet Blog;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody1 View Post
    Ask him what the terms mean or just get tested by a proper institution instead of an internet Blog;
    You are right, unfortunately GEDmatch doesn't support Geno 2.0 kits (so they told me via e-mail), and dr. Mc Donald doesn't test full europeans anymore (he said he should be paid in that case, because of the high workload). I tried other Dodecad calculators with the DIY software and they found totally different results from each other (for example, one even found some traces of "arctic" and "amerindian", which make no sense at all).
    EDIT: I was wrong, the african component in the other DIY calculators is called north west african not palaeo african, all of these names are a bit confusing...

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    Arctic and Amerindian actually represent ancient traces of East Asian-like ancestry, it shouldn't be taken too literally. In Southern Europe the figures tend to be pretty irrelevant, yet in Northern Europe the connection seems definitely stronger.

    In this test, the Far Asian category is the best proxy regarding these admixtures. Considering your result (0%), that gives an idea of its little impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    You are right, unfortunately GEDmatch doesn't support Geno 2.0 kits (so they told me via e-mail), and dr. Mc Donald doesn't test full europeans anymore (he said he should be paid in that case, because of the high workload). I tried other Dodecad calculators with the DIY software and they found totally different results from each other (for example, one even found some traces of "arctic" and "amerindian", which make no sense at all).
    EDIT: I was wrong, the african component in the other DIY calculators is called north west african not palaeo african, all of these names are a bit confusing...

    Each Dodecad run was created to explore different aspects of pre-historic population movements, so each has different framing populations and different numbers of clusters etc.That's why you see different "populations" in each run. If you want to get a handle on the different ones, I would suggest you google them at the dodecad blog or Dienekes' blog, or at 23andme. You'll find comments in those places from people who are familiar with the runs, how they work, and what they mean.

    Have you run the Globe 13? Given the framing populations, and the clusters, I think it's the most informative for that kind of ancient ancestry in Europeans. This is the spreadsheet with the population averages:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...tUE9kaUE#gid=2

    The results are grouped by source, so you can find Italian results, for example, in the Dodecad section, Hap Map, Li et al etc. The same is true for other groups.

    In terms of more recent ancestry, I have to be honest and say that I'm not impressed by the Geno 2.0 analysis, either for uniparental markers or for autosomal analysis, but it should pick up more recent traces. If you really want to play with the data and the DIY, you might consider buying the 23andme service and then running the DIY calculators with that data and then look for correlations.

    Just a word of caution if you should test at 23andme and the results should show an up to 1% SSA score. Normally, if "colonial" Americans test there and get a score like that, they would estimate that perhaps a ggggg grandparent was African, and probably a slave. These low level kinds of ancestry results would take them back to the 1700's to the early 1800's, which would be about right.

    That doesn't always work with Europeans. As an example, it's not rare for some Sicilians to score anywhere from .3 or .4 up to 1% total SSA or even a little higher at 23andme. Yet, some of these people come from isolated interior villages where any recent such ancestry would be known. (You can't hide anything in places like that, as I'm sure you know.) Plus, it's very widespread over the island. There was no influx of Africans into Sicily within the last two hundred years. (Well, other than very recently.) The last population movement into Sicily which could have carried it all over the island would have been the "Moorish" invasion which covered the period from about 827 to 1061. So, despite their claims, probably to be very conservative, that their analysis goes back only 500 years or so, it seems clear to me that it is picking up SSA from much further back. The fact that it still does show up indicates to me that in more isolated, inbred areas the segments can keep getting passed back and forth. Also, I think the fact that it is retained may mean that it is linked to genes which are providing some sort of selective advantage in a particular environment. I've wondered, for example, whether it might be retained in areas that were affected by malaria until quite recently.

    FWIW, from comparing the Dodecad results on something like Globe 13 to those of 23andme, there is definitely a good correlation in terms of these minority ancestries. Of course, that doesn't mean it's always the case, or always going to be the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    You are right, unfortunately GEDmatch doesn't support Geno 2.0 kits (so they told me via e-mail), and dr. Mc Donald doesn't test full europeans anymore (he said he should be paid in that case, because of the high workload). I tried other Dodecad calculators with the DIY software and they found totally different results from each other (for example, one even found some traces of "arctic" and "amerindian", which make no sense at all).
    EDIT: I was wrong, the african component in the other DIY calculators is called north west african not palaeo african, all of these names are a bit confusing...
    Sounds like the Mozabites i like so much .... ... ...... ...... ; And even if it costs (and you want to have the results) def. go for a proper institution and judge by proper academic studies;

    Italians (North Italians / Tuscans / Sardinians / South Italians / Sicilians) are highly diverse from each other (genetically not related to each other DiGaetano et al 2012 due to not inter-mixed with each other Coop and Ralph et al 2013) so if your ancestry is all North Italian than you should cluster with them acc. to K12b North Italy HGDP/Stanford Uni. [11 samples] was 0.7% Mozabite and 0% all other African;

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    This test is useless for anyone who wasn't in the original run that the allele frequencies came from.

    That's because most of the clusters are separated by low Fst (genetic) distances and this results in a horrible calculator effect (very similar to PCA projection bias) that makes Italians look Austrian, the English German, and so on.

    I can't believe a lot of people don't understand this problem yet, even after being part of the scene for years. Maybe a new hobby is in order, like collecting beer cans or watching grass grow?

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    Dodecad is crap. I tested my autosomal with Family Finder and they found no african, arctic neither amerindian in me (I'm full euro from Northern Italy). They found me 85% european (69% north mediterranean and 16% european northlands), and 16% Anatolia + Caucasus.
    No SSA, no amerindian, no arctic, as simple logic could easily suggest...
    cut_myorigins.jpg
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    Last edited by Mars; 11-06-14 at 18:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by polako View Post
    This test is useless for anyone who wasn't in the original run that the allele frequencies came from.

    That's because most of the clusters are separated by low Fst (genetic) distances and this results in a horrible calculator effect (very similar to PCA projection bias) that makes Italians look Austrian, the English German, and so on.

    I can't believe a lot of people don't understand this problem yet, even after being part of the scene for years. Maybe a new hobby is in order, like collecting beer cans or watching grass grow?
    someone has to look central alpine european! .............where are the Austrians, swiss, tyrol people in these tests?

    We cannot leave these people blank like all the other testing bodies, ie, 23andme, etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mars View Post
    Dodecad is crap. I tested my autosomal with Family Finder and they found no african, arctic neither amerindian in me (I'm full euro from Northern Italy). They found me 85% european (69% north mediterranean and 16% european northlands), and 16% Anatolia + Caucasus.
    No SSA, no amerindian, no arctic, as simple logic could easily suggest...
    ethnic makeup marco.jpg
    For myOrigins, you look typical north-italian ( a bit of ancient antolian ), med basin and you should have some german.

    is myOrigins correct............doubt it

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    8
    Points: 956, Level: 8
    Level completed: 3%, Points required for next Level: 194
    Overall activity: 16.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a2a1a1b3
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: Italy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    For myOrigins, you look typical north-italian ( a bit of ancient antolian ), med basin and you should have some german.

    is myOrigins correct............doubt it
    I don't. It's made by professional genetists, not bloggers (no offense folks! :))

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