Modern Assyrians (split from "Were the Aryan who ruled the Mitanni"...)

[Alan]

Dude, no way it's possible that there's so much of G2 and R2 from the Neolithic farmers and only in the upper classes in India!

You (as an Assyrian or maybe Armenian/Turkish?) just can't live with the fact that Kurds are Iranic and are native to Kurdistan. Somehow you printed in your mind that Kurds are 'immigrants' from Central Asia who killed the natives. That they are the same as Turks, who are also from Central Asia. And that the Turks can have Kurdish land and have the right to take it because Kurds are the same 'immigrants' from Central Asia as Turks. Or that Kurds live on the Assyrian and Armenian lands, lol. Keep dreaming!

please Goga dont start with this accusions again. There might be Assyrians who think so, and I know some of them but Cobol didnt say something like that in contrary he always supported the idea that Kurds are native.

[Humanist]

You (as an Assyrian or maybe Armenian/Turkish?) just can't live with the fact that Kurds are Iranic and are native to Kurdistan

How is Cobol19 "maybe Armenian/Turkish?" The average McDonald green spot on the map for 7 Assyrians is NE Iraq*. See the first attachment. The second attachment contains the central point of the McDonald green (average) spots for only those individuals who received the new McDonald analysis (May-present):

Green=Kurd
Fuchsia=Turk
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean
Red=Assyrian

*Assyrian Churches Represented
Chaldean Catholic = 2.5 (Points H, C, and B*)
"Nestorian" = 2.5 (Points F, I, and B*)
Syriac Orthodox = 1 (Point G)
Ancient Church of East = 1 (Point E)

*"B" is half Chaldean Catholic, half "Nestorian."

[Goga]

How is Cobol19 "maybe Armenian/Turkish?" The average McDonald green spot on the map for 7 Assyrians is NE Iraq*. See the first attachment. The second attachment contains the central point of the McDonald green (average) spots for only those individuals who received the new McDonald analysis (May-present):

Green=Kurd
Fuchsia=Turk
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean
Red=Assyrian

*Assyrian Churches Represented
Chaldean Catholic = 2.5 (Points H, C, and B*)
"Nestorian" = 2.5 (Points F, I, and B*)
Syriac Orthodox = 1 (Point G)
Ancient Church of East = 1 (Point E)

*"B" is half Chaldean Catholic, half "Nestorian."

Not even around Mosul, lol? I do only see red spots in the heart of Kurdistan. Since when is Colemêrg (Hakkari) Assyria?

But I mean that some folks on the net are actually ethnic Turks or Armenians that present themselves as Assyrians only to attack Kurds and to spread some dirty propaganda against the Kurds.

Btw, Assyrians speak an Semitic language. And as far as I know Semitic languages are not from Kurdistan. It seems that Assyrians have got some kind of identity crisis. Actually they are Semitic but they think they aren't. ACNIENT Assyrians were not from the Zagros mountains, but they were from the Levant and South Mesopotamia.

[sparkey]

Not even around Mosul, lol? I do only see red spots in the heart of Kurdistan. Since when is Colemêrg (Hakkari) Assyria?

Assyrians have lived there a long time... "Hakkari" is from Syriac, "Akkare." What's wrong with Assyrians not all living around Mosul?

Btw, Assyrians speak an Semitic language. And as far as I know Semitic languages are not from Kurdistan. It seems that Assyrians have got some kind of identity crisis. Actually they are Semitic but they think they aren't. ACNIENT Assyrians were not from the Zagros mountains, but they were from the Levant and South Mesopotamia.

I've never heard Assyrians claim that they aren't Semitic. A lot are quite passionate about being distanced from other Semites, namely Arabs. Either way, the first time Assyrians formed as a coherent ethnicity they were speaking Akkadian, which is Semetic but not Levantine, and they were living in Mesopotamia but not South Mesopotamia. So although they likely have genetic input from these regions, it's best to just say that ancient Assyrians were from Mesopotamia.

[Goga]

Assyrians have lived there a long time... "Hakkari" is from Syriac, "Akkare." What's wrong with Assyrians not all living around Mosul?

I've never heard Assyrians claim that they aren't Semitic. A lot are quite passionate about being distanced from other Semites, namely Arabs. Either way, the first time Assyrians formed as a coherent ethnicity they were speaking Akkadian, which is Semetic but not Levantine, and they were living in Mesopotamia but not South Mesopotamia. So although they likely have genetic input from these regions, it's best to just say that ancient Assyrians were from Mesopotamia.

Colemêrg is situated in the centrum and heart of Kurdistan. It's a very mountainous area. I don't think that Assyrians are from the mountains! Colemêrg was NEVER Assyrian homeland!
As far as I know Kurdish mountains always has been inhabited by the (proto-)Kurds. I've got the feeling that some folks just try to steal Kurdish history and the achievements of Kurdish ancestors.

Nineveh was the heart and centrum of the ancient Assyrian homeland. Assyrians are from central Iraq and are very close to Iraqi Arabs.

Assyrians in diaspora are very mixed with other people, so I don't think that their modern DNA represent the DNA of the ancient Assyrians. Modern Assyrians in DIASPORA are mixed with Turks, Arabs, Armenians and Kurds!

Once again, I don't think that ancient Assyrians had the same DNA as the modern so called Assyrians. Ancient Assyrians were descendant of the Akkadians and Akkadians lived in southern parts of Mesopotamia!

Modern descendants of these Akkadians are actually Iraqi Arabs and unmixed Assyrians.

[Goga]

Modern Assyrians in DIASPORA are not very representative for the ancient Assyrians! I mean most of them in Kurdistan are culturally Kurdish/Iranic, they're using Kurdish/Iranic music on their wedding parties for instance.

Kurds in Turkmenistan are not the same as Kurds in Kurdistan. The same thing applies to the modern Assyrians.


I think that they deserve some place for themselves, though. Somewhere around Mosul. But is very silly to claim places like Colemerg or other Kurdish palces.

[Alan]

Assyrians have lived there a long time... "Hakkari" is from Syriac, "Akkare." What's wrong with Assyrians not all living around Mosul?

I would be careful with such connections. Hakkari is a Kurdish tribe living in that area. Just because a Term has a similar word it doesent mean it has the same origin. Best example Diyarbekir. in Turkish Diyarbakir means "Land of Cupper" but the real name Diyarbekir comes from Diyarê bekir and means "land of bekir".

@Goga Assyrians are mostly native. Just because their language has a different origin doesnt mean they arent native.

[Goga]

@Goga Assyrians are mostly native. Just because their language has a different origin doesnt mean they arent native.

Of course they're genetically native, because they're mixed with the natives. They have been living in Kurdistan for at least 3000 years.

They have the same right to live in Kurdistan as the Kurds!

I compare them to the European Jews. Who're actually native to Europe. Jews in Europe are mostly native to Europe, but their origin is Semitic (from Israel). Assyrians are native to Kurdistan. They do even live longer in Kurdistan than Jews in Europe, but their origin is Semitic too.

But Kurds are native to Kurdistan and their origin lies in Kurdistan too. I mean take the Jezidism for instance. It's an ancient Kurdish religion and it's from Kurdistan. I think that the Yezidism is older than the Assyrian ethnicity.

My roots (from my fathers side) are not far from Lalish-Shengal (Syrian-Iraqi border). If the Yezidism is older than the Assyrian ethnicity and it's only belongs to Kurdish people, than this means that Kurds were there first!

[Goga]

The problem is that some Assyrians try to take over Kurdish heritage.

Haven't you noticed that these Assyrians obsessively following us. Every time when I claim something about the Kurds the so called 'Assyrians' are trying to involve ancient Assyrians into such discussions.

They actually deny their Semitic roots. They think that they're Hurrian / Caucasian (or maybe even Indo-European). I don't even know why? Semites ARE very great and gifted people. We have got algebra and the writings because of the Semites. If I was a Semite, I would be very proud of it!

Of course they ain't no Arabs, but this doesn't mean that they're not Semitic. Jews are not the same as Arabs. But even Jews are Semitic. Assyrians are just 'different' Semitic folks, but they are also different to Arabs or Jews. They are still Semites...

[sparkey]

Colemêrg is situated in the centrum and heart of Kurdistan. It's a very mountainous area. I don't think that Assyrians are from the mountains! Colemêrg was NEVER Assyrian homeland!
As far as I know Kurdish mountains always has been inhabited by the (proto-)Kurds. I've got the feeling that some folks just try to steal Kurdish history and the achievements of Kurdish ancestors.

Calm down, Goga. Modern Assyrians can still be from Hakkari, even though it was originally its own kingdom and Assyrians were from Assur and nearby.

Nineveh was the heart and centrum of the ancient Assyrian homeland. Assyrians are from central Iraq and are very close to Iraqi Arabs.

Assyrians share a lot with Iraqi Arabs, but they aren't the closest population to them. Dodecad has shown that Mandaeans are closer, for example. That may be because Mandaeans have less non-Mesopotamian admixture than Iraqi Arabs. Either way, it seems to indicate that Assyrians are indeed the most direct descendant population from the ancient Assyrians (although there's no reason to think of them as "pure"). That would make them closely related to the Southern Mesopotamians that Mandaeans are likely descended primarily from, but the ancient Assyrians were not exactly the Southern branch of the Akkadians.

Once again, I don't think that ancient Assyrians had the same DNA as the modern so called Assyrians. Ancient Assyrians were descendant of the Akkadians and Akkadians lived in southern parts of Mesopotamia!

Oh? Have you seen the Dodecad results? How do you interpret them? This conclusion seems at odds with that data to me.

I think that they deserve some place for themselves, though. Somewhere around Mosul. But is very silly to claim places like Colemerg or other Kurdish palces.

It's very good of you to call for an Assyrian autonomous area, but what cities or towns would you actually allow them to have? I can't imagine it going over well to give them Mosul. Maybe Arbil?

They actually deny their Semitic roots. They think that they're Hurrian / Caucasian (or maybe even Indo-European). I don't even know why? Semites ARE very great and gifted people. We have got algebra and the writings because of the Semites. If I was a Semite, I would be very proud of it!

Of course they ain't no Arabs, but this doesn't mean that they're not Semitic. Jews are not the same as Arabs. But even Jews are Semitic. Assyrians are just 'different' Semitic folks, but they are also different to Arabs or Jews. They are still Semites...

I agree with most of this, but I haven't really seen the sentiment, so I wonder if you're attacking a straw man. Most reputable Assyrianists claim that Assyrians are principally Semitic and Mesopotamian.

[Goga]

This topic was about Mitanni and not about Assyrians. Assyrians also hijacked the topic about the Sarmartians. What's wrong with them?!

Oh? Have you seen the Dodecad results? How do you interpret them? This conclusion seems at odds with that data to me.

That they're native Kurdistan! But how do you interpret that they also took over very much elements of Kurdish/Iranic culture?

It's very good of you to call for an Assyrian autonomous area, but what cities or towns would you actually allow them to have? I can't imagine it going over well to give them Mosul. Maybe Arbil?

I'm very generous about this. Saladin was even born in a place south to Mosul, in Tikrit! According to many (Yezidi) Kurds in Mosul and other parts of Kurdistan is Mosul Kurdish too. Even Tikrit was once Kurdish, but because of the Arabization Kurds lost that city forever.

Sure, if they were the majority in Hewler and other Kurdish cities and could show that they were there first, I think that they would have a great chance to have that too.
The other possibility is to wipe out all Kurds from earth. This is what Turks, Arabs and Iranians tried to do together. But didn't succeed.

Let give Assyrians some land in the disputed areas in Iraq and solve the problem! I bet, that they will not survive for a very long time in the modern Middle East if they got their state. I think that they will become Arabs eventually!

[Cobol19]

Sparkey and Humanist, I don't even know why you guys bother with this Goga dude, he's some paranoid person with an agenda to talk shit about Assyrians, Turks, and any other group that happens to be native in lands where Kurds live in, with all the crap he wrote, I'm actually baffled that you guys still take him seriously and discuss with him, I will just say one thing, he does NOT know the difference between deep ancestry and autosomal DNA, that should be enough

I will say one thing, the Assyrian homeland is actually in Northern Mesopotamia, and I will also say that the Assyrians of Hakkari are not from there originally, they migrated there recently from the Arbil area during Tamerlane.

[Humanist]

Green=Iraqi Kurd and Zaza
Fuchsia=Turk (w/ believed Khorasanian ancestry)
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean (From S Iraq)
Red=Assyrian (Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, and "Nestorian")
Orange=Syrian (Arab Muslim)

Adding two Syrians and one new Assyrian.

Regarding Mosul. Nineveh was largely destroyed. This is supported by both historical accounts (e.g. Xenophon) and archaeological data (Taylor et al.). Whatever number of people survived, did not remain in the city, as it soon became uninhabitable. Thus, no living person, unless admixed, will plot around Nineveh. The Assyrians who survived in the east, were largely from Arbil* and its environs (see Adiabene, see Adiabene Ecclesiastical Province). Eastern influences (Iranian, and later Kurdish, etc.), over the subsequent 2600 years would certainly have impacted the genomes of the eastern remnants. The same can be said for those in the west, except, the influence would have come in the form of Levantine, and other Mediterranean admixture. Armenian influence over the many centuries on all Assyrians would have also impacted the genomes of the remnants. So, one must allow for some minimal shift to the north. The latitudinal coordinates for four out of the five Assyrians lacks much variation (read: it is reliable).

Dr. Simo Parpola, Assyrians after Assyria

When the Greek historian Xenophon 200 years after Nineveh's fall passed through the Assyrian heartland and visited the sites of two great Assyrian cities, he found nothing but ruin...

--------------------------------------------
Dr. Karen Radner, Nineveh, Assyria's capital in the 7th century BC

From the reign of Sennacherib (r. 704-681 BC) onwards, Nineveh was the capital of the Assyrian empire. It was then considered to be the world's largest city: according to the Old Testament book of Jonah, it was home to 120,000 people and took three days to cross.

Like every irrigation system, these waterworks needed constant maintenance and repair. So when Nineveh fell to the Babylonian and Median armies in 612 BC the complex quickly ceased to function properly as no-one was financing or organising the regular upkeep that was necessary. This collapse contributed to the rapid abandonment of the city because without artificial irrigation it could not provide a home for its many inhabitants. Nineveh soon became a ghost town.

UNESCO

Erbil Citadel Town, which is situated dramatically on top of an artificial, 32-meters high earthen mound, and visually dominating the expansive modern city of Erbil, is believed to have been in continuous existence for 7000 years or even more. Thus, it may be regarded as the oldest continuously inhabited settlement in the world. Because of its past fortifications and steeply inclined mound, which is at some locations nearly 45 degrees, it has managed to survive numerous sieges and fierce attacks. The existing fabric, however, goes back to several hundred years but is, nevertheless, of extreme vernacular architectural and urban interest, not only for Iraq but also for humanity at large.

[Goga]

I will just say one thing, he does NOT know the difference between deep ancestry and autosomal DNA, that should be enough

What is the deep ancestry of the Assyrians? With which folks are they close according to deep ancestry?

[Goga]

As far as I know true descendants of Mitanni, Kassites and before them Guti are Kurds. All these people lived in Kurdistan before the name of the Medes was mentioned. Guti were in Kurdistan before the Assyrians called themselves Assyrian. I think that Guri were Iranic folks. Modern Kurds are named after Guti. Hewler was a capital of Gutium, many many years before Assyrians!

I don't want to proof anything. It doesn't even matter. Kurds has been Kurdistan as far as they can remember and they will continue their lives on Kurdish soil forever. Nobody will ever change that.

It's even very silly to argue with people about nothing. I don't even know what the point is about these Assyrians. What do they want to achieve? They never harmed Kurds and they will never harm Kurds.

[Alan]

Green=Iraqi Kurd and Zaza
Fuchsia=Turk (w/ believed Khorasanian ancestry)
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean (From S Iraq)
Red=Assyrian (Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, and "Nestorian")
Orange=Syrian (Arab Muslim)

Just a small Question. How come it that you mention Zaza separately and at the same time Chaldeans, Syriacs under the Term Assyrian? Even though the Tested individual isnt Zaza Kurdish?

[Alan]

About Adiabene, Arabs called it "Akrad al-Hadiab".

Scythian ruler of Adiabene, Izates II. Antique relief.


Traditional costumes of Gorani/Sorani Kurds living in the area were this relief was found.
kurd.jpgkurdi.jpg

To get a better image here the Video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eFFba_pVA4

[sparkey]

This topic was about Mitanni and not about Assyrians. Assyrians also hijacked the topic about the Sarmartians. What's wrong with them?!

Point taken Goga, I'll split this thread into two.

[Alan]

Semites ARE very great and gifted people. We have got algebra and the writings because of the Semites. If I was a Semite, I would be very proud of it!

wrong. I dont know about algebra but writing was invented by Sumerians.

[Humanist]

Just a small Question. How come it that you mention Zaza separately and at the same time Chaldeans, Syriacs under the Term Assyrian? Even though the Tested individual isnt Zaza Kurdish?

Green = Kurds. Kurds of Iraqi origin, and Zaza Kurds. And, sorry, this is what I thought he had stated in his thread on ABF. I thought he was definitively Zaza. But, he is Alevi, with "possibly some Zaza."

"Alevi Kurds from Dersim (possibly some Zaza), with oral ties to Khorasan."

All of the Assyrians participating identify as such. Whether they attend the Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, or Nestorian Church.

This thread, frankly, is ridiculous. And I am not speaking in particular about you, Che. Although I absolutely, in the strongest sense, disagree with your suggestion that Adiabene was Kurdish. Why are we arguing about costumes, when we have genetic data right in front of our eyes?

Cobol19, you were right. There simply is no point trying to discuss things with that other individual.

[Alan]

Green = Kurds. Kurds of Iraqi origin, and Zaza Kurds. And, sorry, this is what I thought he had stated in his thread on ABF. I thought he was definitively Zaza. But, he is Alevi, with "possibly some Zaza."

"Alevi Kurds from Dersim (possibly some Zaza), with oral ties to Khorasan."

All of the Assyrians participating identify as such. Whether they attend the Chaldean Catholic, Syriac Orthodox, or Nestorian Church.

Ok good I understand. Like I mentioned before. People usually have a wrong picture of demographics in the East. The area is pretty hard mixed between Kurmanj-Zaza. Dersim alone has 30% Kurmanj speakers, while 65% are Zaza.

This thread, frankly, is ridiculous. And I am not speaking in particular about you, Che. Although I absolutely, in the strongest sense, disagree with your suggestion that Adiabene was Kurdish. Why are we arguing about costumes, when we have genetic data right in front of our eyes?

Humanist how has genetic proven Adiabene being anything? I simply wrote that Arabs called Adiabene, Akrad Al -Adiab and its not only the costumes. It isnt hard to connect and assume that Izates II ruling exactly were Kurds live today, being Iranic , wearing the same costume and even the name Izates (still exists as Izzet among Kurds) had most probably a connection to the Kurds in that area. Most probably the ancestor of them. However Adiabene was as much Kurdish as it was Assyrian. Namely almost zero. Adiabene was a Roman province were Kurdish ancestors and Assyrians lived under rulers changing from Roman to Parthian.

[sparkey]

Cobol19, you were right. There simply is no point trying to discuss things with that other individual.

Disagree; Goga is passionate about topics and gets worked up, but I've helped to change his mind on a different topic before. This one may be too personal for him, though.

Back on topic, Goga was asking about Assyrian deep ancestry, so this may be as good a place as any to bring up Assyrian Y-DNA R1b. It's quite common among Assyrians and is a clade that cuts unexpectedly close to Western IE clades (L23+ but L11-). Does its introduction to the population predate the distinct Assyrian ethnicity, I wonder? I suspect that the fact that it is L11- indicates that it is not along an IE line, but is rather just about the closest non-IE R1b cousin we can get to the IE Western Europeans. That could help narrow down a couple of interesting problems: the origin of Western European R1b, and the earliest genetic input into the Assyrians.

[Alan]

Disagree; Goga is passionate about topics and gets worked up, but I've helped to change his mind on a different topic before. This one may be too personal for him, though.

Agree. I had the same passion not too long ago. However when I smell trol.ing, it comes up again.

[Yetos]

I wonder why some people do not see this










Kurds Cretans Pontians-Greeks (Black sea rumlar)

the difference is the below




Scythians always wear a uniform in every pic
and sometimes a hat like that



That hat is also known as Phrygian hat
very famoys among Makedonian army, with the every day Kaysia,





even Alexander wears the Phrygian hat



the common of these population is also in Linguistic since are considered same time developed IE (LPIE)

the name for Cretans was Κουρητες Curetes or Quretes, an old name for Kurds is Qurtie
Kuretes are mentioned that went from Crete to Northern Greece and even more far to Illyria Dalmatia area were Brygians later developed
Kuretes means dancers
and from all cultures, especially the kurds who read my post, know that many Kurdish,Pontic and Cretan dances are almost the same,
the common among these population in gennes?

you figure out,

all I know is J2a I2a and R1a
remember that Greek language and Iranian language share the same ancestor,

thank you

BTW I don't believe that Kurds have connection with Assyrians but with Qurtie and Phrygian and Northen Iranic populations

[Alan]

Yes Kurds are traditionally known throughout the Near East for their dances and costumes.

Kurds usually wear pointy heads see in the video





some Photos. Kurdish
cavalryman from 1730 picture drawn by a German.

Kurd from Caucasus with typical red pointy head.


some variation of pointy heads among Kurds today.
heads.jpg