Modern Assyrians (split from "Were the Aryan who ruled the Mitanni"...)

[Cobol19]

wrong, read here.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=302246&postcount=54

He indeed had a bias against Kurds. We dont claim that he did false "Genetic§ studies on Kurds but that he indeed did interpreted the Results false.

Read the post again, he did not draw the map wrong, this was actually a map made by me and it was still based on Dr. McDonald's analysis, not Humanist, basically the placement of the Assyrian samples at the time (Older analysis) was placed in Northwest Iran and the Kurds were a little further east close to North Central Iran, I was the one who suggested moving them a little west based on the trend, and guess what? That's exactly what Dr. McDonald's new analysis did, all the new updates show that, Kurds in Northwest Iran and Assyrians in the North Iraq junction.

You know as much as me, that Dr. McDonald places all samples a bit too far East. All samples used so far were actually from Iran and Iraq. Even the one Kurd from Anatolia tested before had his origins documented from Northwest Iran. Even ethnologists placed the origin of his tribe (Sinemli) in North Iran who settled in Central Anatolia.
Read here
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=528599&postcount=36
His dialect is more close to Kurmanji from Northwest Iran than Anatolia. So it is no surprise that Zert is the only Kurd so far, who is placed by Dr. Mcdonald on Anatolia. Simply because he is the only real Anatolian Kurd tested so far.

Exactly, this is why there was no manipulation in those maps, it was a suggestion, and this suggestion is actually part of the new analysis updates.

North Iraq in his first step was never called "Assyria" but Hurria-Mitanni, Gutium. In second step Assyria and in third Median confederation. The Time line lies so much in the past that it seems very absurd to discuss about which Empire first appeared in North Iraq. Everything b. c. is very old in this area and can be seen as native.
Please Cobol19 dont start with this kind of things. And like I said Madai were only a confederation build up by tribes who early moved into this Region like Gutians, Hurrians, Scythians, Cimmerians and so on.

Actually, Assyria as a kingdom existed before Mitanni, the establishment of Mitanni was around 1500 BC, the older Assyrian period started around 2000 BC, and before that the area belonged to the Akkadian empire before it was overthrown by the Gutium, during the Akkadian times it was called "Subartu", either way, I'm talking about Dr. McDonald's analysis and where he placed the samples in his new updates, if you or anyone else has a problem with that, you can email him and ask him why his analysis says that, it's much better than blaming Humanist who has nothing to do with this, better yet, why not test yourself and send your sample for analysis? I believe only then you'll believe in this (The other Kurds have all updated their analysis, you can check their results on ABF, you'll see the maps attached).

I've got a question for the Assyrian fellow members on this site. Do you guys think that you're related to the ancient Mitanni & Guti? Please, I really want to know that...

Goga, so long as you remain hostile and paranoid, there will never be any discussiong going on with you, so you can keep talking to yourself.

 

[Alan]

@Cobol19 you are missing the point. Were did I spoke about any maps. I was talking about Humanist behave some time ago. He indeed did manipulate or falsely interpreted Kurdish Genetics. I dont want to give examples now but there are more than enough.

 

[Goga]

Green=Kurd
Fuchsia=Turk
Cyan=Armenian
Blue=Iraqi Mandaean
Red=Assyrian

This map is provocative and very misleading!

Most Kurds are positioned in West Iran (green), while Assyrians at the heart of Kurdistan and the mountainous area around Colemerg where PKK is fighting (red)? With very few samples and what is the background of these samples? On what basis can you place Red in Central Kurdistan and Green in Eastern Kurdistan? So little samples doesn't reflect any reality! How much samples were used of REAL Kurds from North Kurdistan?

That site is filled with Turkmen, Assyrians and Armenians. All these folks hate Kurds. The whole site and the maps are very twisted. Every self-respecting Kurd should never visit that site...

 

[Alan]

Read the post again, he did not draw the map wrong, this was actually a map made by me and it was still based on Dr. McDonald's analysis, not Humanist, basically the placement of the Assyrian samples at the time (Older analysis) was placed in Northwest Iran and the Kurds were a little further east close to North Central Iran, I was the one who suggested moving them a little west based on the trend, and guess what? That's exactly what Dr. McDonald's new analysis did, all the new updates show that, Kurds in Northwest Iran and Assyrians in the North Iraq junction.

Not really , Star send me the data of Palisto and his friend who both come from the Iraq-Iran border area in Sulaymaniah. And guess what, they were exactly settled there by McDonald but as usual a bit further east on the Iraqi side. We need to look up to the samples we have so far.

1. 1 person is from Iran
2. 3 persons from Iraq very close to Iran border with relatives in West Iran.
3. 2 persons from Anatolia, one of them like documented having his roots obviously in Northwest Iran.

So no surprise that McDonald settles two of them in Northwest Iran, 3 other in Iran but on the Iraqi border. And one in East Anatolia, around Ararat. And this again shows me that McDonald still settles a bit to far East. Were do you exactly know that he now started to settle them right?

 

[Alan]

How much samples were used of REAL Kurds from North Kurdistan?

Actually only one from Anatolia and the Iraqi ones are also from East Iraq close to Iranian border.

 

[Humanist]

wrong, read here.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=302246&postcount=54

He indeed had a bias against Kurds. We dont claim that he did false "Genetic§ studies on Kurds but that he indeed did interpreted the Results false.

Dogmatic does not equal bias.

[W]as my attempt at changing my dogmatic ways toward you and other Kurdish folks with whom I had disagreed (sometimes, unfortunately, bitterly).

And, quite frankly, I take great offense to even the suggestion. There was nothing to interpret. Dr. McDonald has consistently placed the great majority of Kurds in what is today part of NW Iran. I believe the average spot may be a bit too far east, and perhaps the south, because of some limitations of the analysis. But, Kurds appear to be, principally, the native element in what is today part of NW Iran.

Edit: At least, I should add, the Kurds who have tested. We await the testing of additional Kurds, to see how, if at all, they will differ from those already tested.

 

[Humanist]

You're a wolf in sheep's clothing. You're a cheater and a liar.

I really do not deserve that. I am sorry.

 

[Cobol19]

Not really , Star send me the data of Palisto and his friend who both come from the Iraq-Iran border area in Sulaymaniah. And guess what, they were exactly settled there by McDonald but as usual a bit further east on the Iraqi side. We need to look up to the samples we have so far.

1. 1 person is from Iran
2. 3 persons from Iraq very close to Iran border with relatives in West Iran.
3. 2 persons from Anatolia, one of them like documented having his roots obviously in Northwest Iran.

So no surprise that McDonald settles two of them in Northwest Iran, 3 other in Iran but on the Iraqi border. And one in East Anatolia, around Ararat. And this again shows me that McDonald still settles a bit to far East. Were do you exactly know that he now started to settle them right?

The older analysis used to put them further east, now it's fixed.

 

[Goga]

I don't understand what the argument is? When the Mitanni had their own Aryan superstate in Kurdistan thy ruled over Hurrians and not over the northern Semites, right? It means that the Semites weren't native folks of Mitanni area.

Later on Assyrians from the south defeated this state, and Mianni state (Kurdistan) was reduced to the status of a province of the Middle Assyrian Empire.

 

[Cobol19]

I don't understand what the argument is? When the Mitanni had their own Aryan superstate in Kurdistan thy ruled over Hurrians and not over the northern Semites, right? It means that the Semites weren't native folks of Mitanni area.

Later on Assyrians from the south defeated this state, and Mianni state (Kurdistan) was reduced to the status of a province of the Middle Assyrian Empire.

Not only do you need to learn about genetics, you need to learn history too, the Assyrians existed before the Mitanni, look up the old Assyrian period which existed in North Mesopotamia, this was the first Assyrian state which was a mix of natives and Akkadian Semites, the name Assyria itself comes from the name of the town (Ashur) that's located in North Mesopotamia (Modern North Iraq).

Here you go:

Old Assyrian Period

The name describes north Mesopotamia in the period about 2000-1740 BC, when the Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language is first written. The period is best known for the Assyrian trading colonies established in Anatolia for the exchange of textiles and tin for silver and gold. Some of the most important evidence comes from the trading colony of Kanesh (near modern Kayseri in Turkey).

Assyrian lists of kings show that from around 2000 BC the city of Ashur was governed by local rulers. However, the highly profitable position which Ashur gained from trade probably made it a target for the Amorite chieftain Shamshi-Adad I (1813-1776), whose power base lay to the west of Ashur. He conquered much of north Mesopotamia, establishing an empire which stretched from the city of Mari on the River Euphrates to Ashur in the east. When Shamshi-Adad died his empire attracted the ambitions of Hammurapi of Babylon who destroyed Mari and captured parts of Assyria.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/article_index/o/old_assyrian_period.aspx

Basically the Assyrian identity is a local native identity to North Mesopotamia (Around the province of Ninwa and its surroundings), the Semitic invasion that you speak of is not different from the Aryan one that came from South-Central Asia, it was a fusion of peoples, this has been proven by modern genetics, but I think you're not worth discussing this with because you're most likely going to attack again.

 

[Goga]

Genetica of modern people is not the same as genetica of ancient people. Modern Assyrians are an admixture of Arabs, Armenians and Kurds. Today They ARE native to Northern Iraq.

But this doesn't mean that they were native to Kurdistan 4500 years ago!

As you can see Akkadians fought against the Hurrian even before Assyrians ever existed!

 

[Goga]

The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2154 BC.
Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium (Sumerian: Gu-tu-umki[1] or Gu-ti-umki[2]) in the mountains, presumably the central Zagros in the Kurdish area of Iraq. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a short time after the fall of the Akkadian Empire, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=15;t=005131


List of the Gutian kings (from wikipedia)

Erridupizir ca. 2141–2138 BC Royal inscription at Nippur
Imta or Nibia ca. 2138–2135 BC
Inkishushca. 2135–2129 BC First Gutian ruler on the Sumerian king list
Zarlagab ca. 2129–2126 BC
Shulme ca. 2126–2120 BC
Silulumesh or Elulmesh ca. 2120–2114 BC
Inimabakesh ca. 2114–2109 BC
Igeshaush ca. 2109–2103 BC
Yarlagab ca. 2103–2088 BC
Ibate ca. 2088–2085 BC
Yarla or Yarlangab ca. 2085–2082 BC
Kurum ca. 2082–2081 BC
Apilkin ca. 2081–2078 BC
La-erabum ca. 2078–2076 BC Mace head inscription
Irarum ca. 2076–2074 BC
Ibranum ca. 2074–2073 BC
Hablum ca. 2073–2071 BC
Puzur-Suen ca. 2071–2064 BC Son of Hablum
Yarlaganda ca. 2064–2057 BC Foundation inscription at Umma
Si'um or Si'u ca. 2057–2050 BCFoundation inscription at Umma
Tiriganca. 2050–2050 BCDefeated by Utu-hengal of Uruk


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

 

[Cobol19]

Genetica of modern people is not the same as genetica of ancient people. Modern Assyrians are an admixture of Arabs, Armenians and Kurds. Today They ARE native to Northern Iraq.

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, even a donkey is smarter than this, that's like me saying there are no such thing as Kurds, just a bunch of Pesians, Turks, and Arabs mixed together, yea, I guess we speak a language that neither Kurds, Arabs, or Armenians speak, yet we're made from these groups :useless:

Goga, do yourself a favor and stop continuing to sound like an idiot, my conversations with you are done, you cry and complain about people having an agenda against Kurds yet you make stupid comment after another with agenda against others, you talk about genetics and history with authority yet you have no clue what the difference between an apple or a banana is, I don't even know why I bothered, I thought you'll learn but I guess that won't happen, well, if you wanna continue making yourself look like an idiot, be my guest, but I'm done discussing with you and any forum member with an ounce of intelligence in their head should ignore you for the same reasons.

 

[Goga]

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, even a donkey is smarter than this, that's like me saying there are no such thing as Kurds, just a bunch of Pesians, Turks, and Arabs mixed together, yea, I guess we speak a language that neither Kurds, Arabs, or Armenians speak, yet we're made from these groups :useless:

Goga, do yourself a favor and stop continuing to sound like an idiot...

You can insult me all day long, but it doesn't change the reality that the ancient Assyrians belonged to the Semitic group like modern Arabs do. Arabs and ancient Assyrians share the same Semitic ancestors. Their languages proof that! Later on when they moved up to north they mixed with the ancestors of Armenians and the ancestors of the Kurds.
So that's why if I must compare modern Assyrian population to other modern people for me it's logical to say that they are an admixture of Arabs, Kurds and Armenians. Nothing disrespectful toward others.

"In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian[9] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium"."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people


You can have the last word!

 

[Taranis]

This is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard, even a donkey is smarter than this, that's like me saying there are no such thing as Kurds, just a bunch of Pesians, Turks, and Arabs mixed together, yea, I guess we speak a language that neither Kurds, Arabs, or Armenians speak, yet we're made from these groups :useless:

Goga, do yourself a favor and stop continuing to sound like an idiot, my conversations with you are done, you cry and complain about people having an agenda against Kurds yet you make stupid comment after another with agenda against others, you talk about genetics and history with authority yet you have no clue what the difference between an apple or a banana is, I don't even know why I bothered, I thought you'll learn but I guess that won't happen, well, if you wanna continue making yourself look like an idiot, be my guest, but I'm done discussing with you and any forum member with an ounce of intelligence in their head should ignore you for the same reasons.

Cobol, please. There's no reason to denigrate other board members no matter how much you disagree with them.

 

[Cobol19]

Cobol, please. There's no reason to denigrate other board members no matter how much you disagree with them.

I'm not degrading, I just think it's absurd how this person complains so much yet he comes up with these outrageous claims that have no basis behind them besides an agenda, I'm actually surprised he lasted this long here and people still discuss with him, for crying out loud, he does not even know the difference between deep ancestry and autosomal DNA, how are people still discussing genetics with him goes beyond my head.

Anyways, I already had my last reply on that, I'll just ignore him from now on since he's not worth the time, no need to put fuel on fire.

 

[Alan]

Dogmatic does not equal bias.



And, quite frankly, I take great offense to even the suggestion. There was nothing to interpret. Dr. McDonald has consistently placed the great majority of Kurds in what is today part of NW Iran. I believe the average spot may be a bit too far east, and perhaps the south, because of some limitations of the analysis. But, Kurds appear to be, principally, the native element in what is today part of NW Iran.

Edit: At least, I should add, the Kurds who have tested. We await the testing of additional Kurds, to see how, if at all, they will differ from those already tested.

read my post. I think I did mention it enough. The "great majority " you are talking about are 5 individuals and all five either from Iran, close to Iranian border or have their origin in Northwest Iran.

Here are the maps showing were Dr.McDonald settled the Kurds from Sulaymaniah.

And this is the place of their origin. And they do have relatives from Iran.

Black point: birthplace
Red points: were Dr Mcdonald places them.



Now Humanist is this really the prove that the "great majority" of Kurds have their origin in Northwest Iran? Where did you expect them to be placed, somewhere in the middle of North Iraq or even better in Southeast Anatolia? As people coming from the Iranian border region, having relatives and ancestors from the Iranian side. I think they are placed very normal. And you know even though Mc Donald improved his data, still many people come out a bit further east than their real place of birth.

 

[Alan]

Genetica of modern people is not the same as genetica of ancient people. Modern Assyrians are an admixture of Arabs, Armenians and Kurds. Today They ARE native to Northern Iraq.

But this doesn't mean that they were native to Kurdistan 4500 years ago!

As you can see Akkadians fought against the Hurrian even before Assyrians ever existed!

If there are any People modern Assyrians might have similar origin with, than those are Armenians. But they are a people of their own and no one can take the right from them to feel like this.

 

[Goga]

If there are any People modern Assyrians might have similar origin with, than those are Armenians. But they are a people of their own and no one can take the right from them to feel like this.

I think Assyrians and Armenians somehow mixed with each other due to the Christianity. Both folks are one the very first Christans in the world!

 

[Alan]

I think Assyrians and Armenians somehow mixed with each other due to the Christianity. Both folks are one the very first Christans in the world!

The very first Christians were Israelits converting to Christianity. I think the Assyrians/Armenians are the first who fully converted to Christianity as a Folk.