Italy-Greece Links: Magna Graecia/Megale Hellas

[Angela]

The first man is a messinese by Coon book.
Plate 24. BLUE-EYED ATLANTO-MEDITERRANEANS
"FIG.1 (3 views). A Sicilian from Messina. Aberrant in respect to an excessive mandible width, but otherwise typical."
From which book are the calabrian and the other sicilian? i have never seen their photos before today.

It's commercial time, so I did a reverse image search.

They seem to be from a book by Roland Dixon called The Racial History of Man. He was another one of those early twentieth century racists.

This also came up:
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/1241515/1/

I'll say one thing, I've been watching the Netflix series Lilyhammer, and the Norwegian plates look pretty representative.

The Portuguese plate seems off. That has to be a Cape Verdean or something. They're the only Portuguese or part Portuguese people I've ever seen that look that SSA admixed...that, or Brazilians.
http://s653.photobucket.com/user/Tyranos/media/med2.jpg.html

The south Italian sample isn't off, imo, but you need more than one plate to capture the diversity. The two you posted help, but you'd still need more examples, I think.

 

[Hauteville]

All these three plates have familiar phenotypes however

 

[Angela]

All these three plates have familiar phenotypes however

You think the Calabrian and the Sicilian right below him have the exact same phenotype? Doesn't it seem to you that the Calabrian has larger, more widely set eyes, a slightly different nose, and slightly different pigmentation?

Ah, I probably misunderstood you; I was thinking similar when you said familiar. They are definitely familiar faces, all four of them!

The Calabrian face is particularly familiar to me.

 

[Angela]

Sorry i can't resist.

Did you post this because you think that the different sources of the Greek input resulted in slightly different phenotypes? For that to be true, wouldn't we have to believe that there were differences in the Greeks from Ionia compared to the Greeks from, say, the Northwest, or even Achaea?

Ed. Or, was it to show that Greek colonization did not blanket the whole south? I agree about that, although gene flow probably occurred during the Bronze Age as well, and how different could the Neolithic input to both areas have been?

 

[Hauteville]

Or, was it to show that Greek colonization did not blanket the whole south?

I would say this and the map of Magna Grecia is quite accurate compared to some other of the web.

Ah, I probably misunderstood you; I was thinking similar when you said familiar. They are definitely familiar faces, all four of them!

Again this eheh

 

[noUseForAname]

Dont know about South Italians, but Sicilians still have a genetic impact/link with Greeks based on the ancient colonies of Magna Graecia.

Di Gaetano et al 2009
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2985948/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18685561/

The lineage E3b1a2-V13 13-13-30-24-10-11-13, which is typical of the Greek and southern Balkan regions, is present in the eastern side of the island and, together with the more general presence of the E3b1a2-V13 lineages, supports the presence of a common genetic heritage shared by the Sicilians and the Greeks.
The genetic contribution of Greek chromosomes to the Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37%
The estimate of Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor is about 2380 years before present, which broadly agrees with the archaeological traces of the Greek classic era.

So the Genetic link (~37%) between Sicilians and Greeks is due to the Historical link
(Syracuse / Naxos (Taormina) / Valley of the Temples etc.) of Magna Graecia.

R.J. King [Stanford Uni.] was also part of the Di Gaetano et al 2009 study;
R.J. King did an equally revealing study about the ancient Greek genetic impact of the Provence, South France.

King et al 2011
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068964/?tool=pubmed

However, this increase in Y-chromosome admixture from Greece is in accord with the recent results from Sicily, which estimated a 37% Greece input, in accordance with the demographic estimate of [18 (Beloch), 19 (Scheidel)].

So are you pointing that Sicilian gene pool is estimated to be about 37% of E-V13?

As per Italy...I have found very high E-V13 in some areas above 28% (see table)

Italians (South)	IE (Italic)	68	25.0	3.0	6.0	26.0	—	15.0	—	3.0	—	Zalloua2008[31]
Italians (Sicily)	IE (Italic)		—	—	8.8	27.3	23.8	—	—	—	—	Semino2004[8]
Italians (East Sicily)	IE (Italic)	87	20.0	2.3	5.0	29.0	—	5.0	—	5.0	—	Zalloua2008[31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...an_populations

you are pointing out admixture from Greece, i believe its from Ancient Greece and it was comprised of the following current Countries (by location) according to DNA links, Greece, Macedonia, Albania, Kosovo.

plogroup	I1	I2*/I2a	I2b	R1a	R1b	G	J2	J*/J1	E-V13
Albania	2	12	1.5	9	16	1.5	19.5	2	27.5
Kosovo Albanians	5.5	2.5	0	4.5	21	0	16.5	0	47.5
Albanians (Macedonia)	1	9		1.5	18.8	1.6	21.9		39.1
Greece (Peloponnese)									47
Greece (South)	3	20		2.2	19.6	5.5			43.5
Greece (North)	2	12		19	14.6	5.2			35.4
Greece (Crete)		13		8.8	17		39		8.8
Greece (Thrace)		19		22	12		19		19
Greece (ethnic Greeks)		19		16	11.7	9	17		19
Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)	1	33	1.5	5.1	15.2	1.5			24.1
Bulgaria	4	20	2	17	11	5	11	3	23.5
Bosniaks	4	56	0	16	3	2	3.5	0.5	10
Bosnian Croats	0	71	2	12	2	1	1	0	9
Bosnian Serbs	2.5	31	2.5	13.5	6	1	8.5	0	22.5
Croatia	5.5	37	1	24	8.5	2	6	1	10
Serbia	8.5	33	0.5	16	8	2	8	0.5	18

 

[Hauteville]

37% is the complessive estimated greek influence in Sicily according to Di Gaetano et al. (2008) not only E-V13.

 

[noUseForAname]

But Keep in mind that all Mediterranean people are akin to each other whether in Europe, North Africa or Near East (Orientalid sub-race)

Madison Grant - The Passing of the Great Race (1922)
-"The Berbers of north Africa to-day are racially identical with the Spaniards and south Italians"-

William Z. Ripley - plates / Berbers of the Mediterranid (Orientalid) Caucasoid sub-race

According to recent scientific DNA facts the map you have showed is not even close....taking Spain in the same subclade with berbers, then south France south Itali, and also south Greece. Of course they would have some of the same DNA but actually at the lowest percentages...

Also, South Greece on the map showed has nothing to to with berbers...cause south Greece has over 40% of E-V13.

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007)

As you can see in Africa E-V13 (which is 9,000 years) is 0.9%, and at that time surely there were no berbers.

 

[Hauteville]

Berbers are mostly E-M81 and it's the dominant Y-Dna of north Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa

 

[noUseForAname]

Berbers are mostly E-M81 and it's the dominant Y-Dna of north Africa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_populations_of_North_Africa

That is correct. And the E-V13 that we find in Europe is a subclade of E-M78 and at berbers is only 5%.

 

[Hauteville]

The same E-M81 in Magna Grecia has very low frequencies.