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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    30 44.12%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    5 7.35%
  • Sea Peoples

    0 0%
  • The Sarmatians

    3 4.41%
  • The Slavs

    21 30.88%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    9 13.24%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #226
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.


    Agreed; the most obviously important I subclades in early Germanic peoples, as evidenced by both diversity patterns and modern frequency distributions, were I1 (all subclades except maybe AS4 and P)
    This is something that I would like to see any Shred of evidence for, seriously, ha ha ha.

    The Hg I1 is the ONLY of current euro Hg that is totally absent from the ancient DNA record on the euro continent. It literally does not exists in ANY samples of ancient euro DNA.

    While in the sense that the Svears of central scandinavia are of adopted germanic culture, its 'germanic' in modern times, Hg I1 is not provably in any way the source or origin of germanic paternal ancestry, because it is totally absent in any provable euro samples historically. Given that they took over the germanic Geats they seem to have adopted german culture from the Geats.

    Germany loses half its populations during the 30 years war alone, and many more with plagues and wars, so the modern I1 in north europe is coming in likely from the masses of I1 we KNOW were fleeing scandinavia during and after the DARK AGES, not in ancient germanic tribal times.

    The modern I1 are most likely descendants of the many poor paternally 'Svear' descent farmers from scandinavia looking to settle father south for better lands freed up by depopulation while their own lands are now too crowded.

    They are in no way the historical angles, saxons, or germans like Nortvedt wrongly asserted starting a decade ago.

    since that time, over a decade ago, we have many ancient y-dna samples from europe and in germany and the I1/germanic crowd has gotten more and more desperate since their tale has now fallen apart like many warned when Nortvedt started this claims.
    Show me one ancient DNA discovery of I1 in europe before the dark ages expansions from Svearish Scandinavians that does come from legitimate source, and we can discuss you claims. For the time being, if they are not gibberish and disproven Nordtvedt is as close as you can get to that. He has made many promise to people who emotionally want to believe this claims, and even as they fail, they still seek to sell with emotions and psueudo-babble, what is failing them in provable science.


    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    We're not talking about I2, we're talking about its subclade, I2a-Din (I2a1b1a in Nordtvedt's hierarchy).
    Please. The I2 is isolated pools that were no longer in contact with one another and develop proprietary STR's and SNP in their isolation. They are all still aboriginal peoples who exist before the modern cultures we recognize even come into europe. They are adopted into these varied cultures. I2 exists in every population of europe. It held out against R1b/R1a arrival better in the Balkan because the terrain protected them from the aggression of the arrival R males better than in easy flat or open terrain.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I saw on another forum pictures with serbs.
    A lot of serbs who are looking identical to old dacians statues from the Arch of Constantine.
    Novak Djokovic looks like those dacian statues from Arch of Constantine.
    I2A could be from old dacians.
    A lot of romance speakers said that romanian sound like a latin but that is spoken with slavic sonority.
    The dacian names of towns are looking like south slavic,Petrodava,Sucidava and so on.
    Is said that after dacians were beaten by Roman Empire in 2nd Roman empire-dacian war,a lot dacians fled to mountains,a lot of them in the mountains from Serbia it seems,others in Greece,so I think this is how a lot of I2A got in north Greece.
    Look how crazy are serbians today,like old dacians,they fought with NATO not many years ago.
    Romanians are also from dacians,but it seems that serbians have a lot more from dacian warriors.
    I think romanians got a lot of words from latin and the gramar from there,but they retained old pronunciation from dacian language.

    There are a lot of resemblances between romanians and serbians and croatians,in national costumes and so on.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pr..._tance_VI.JPG
    Exactly same kind of dance can be found in Romania,almost same costumes and so on.
    that makes sense....

    Romanians cluster typically close to south Slavs in genetic research...
    Dacians were related to wolf same as Lycians and Serbs...

    Carpathians with name likely related to Dacian tribe Carpi were also known as montes Serrorum - mountains of Serians... Carpathians were also core of white Croatia....

    perhaps Carpi = Hrvati? or maybe Heruli = Hrvati? as in more west parts of white Croatia prior to white Croats Heruli are recorded... or both? what if Carpi = Heruli?

    that is hard to state though... but personally, I am sure that Heruli = Hirri, and that east Germanic could in fact have been same as west Slavic but am not decided whether Heruli and Scirii were related to Slavic people...





    In the Scandinavian Hervarar saga, which describes ancient Germanic legends about battles between Goths and Huns, the name Karpates appears in the predictable Germanic form as Harvaða fjöllum
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains

    hence, Carpi = Hervada = Hrvati? (Croats)
    what complicates things is that in same time Carpathians were montes Sarmatici - mountains of Sarmatians...and Serboi were one of the tribes mentioned in Asian Sarmatia (later Siraces come from them probably) and there are links of Croats to Sarmatians as well...

    Scirii are sometimes said to be part of Alans (=Sarmatians)...
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9...=sciri&f=false
    read on mid of the page:
    and the Scirii have already been called Alan population
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=pIg9...=sciri&f=false

    on top of same page,

    there were Scirii as far east as Bavaria
    note that Bavaria/Bohemia is from where Serbs come to Balkan

    Sciri /Scirians (?= Serians mentioned by Seneca = I2a-Din?)



    [369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) theSerians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
    Seneca - Thyestes
    27. i.e. the frozen surface.
    28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
    http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


    what if by origin I2a-Din people living in Europe along Danube and had conquest that spread them further along Black sea into Asia

    Hirri = Heruli = Hervada = Carpi = Hrvati (? Helvetti)
    and
    Scirii = Siraces = Serboi = white Serbs = Serdi / Scordisci = Sherdana = white Syrians = Kurds = Sarbans = white Sarts = Serians = Serres



    btw. for Romanian - south Slavic link look at this clustering of Y-DNA samples
    Ystrclusters.png
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11...an-y-strs.html


    note this
    haplogroup I old tribal names

    Suebi (Swabians) - Swedes - Srbi - Sarbans - Serdi - Sardinians - Sherdana - Scordisci - Kurds- Scirii / Scirrians- Serians
    Dutch/Deutch - Dacians

    as I said I2a-Din has spread along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea and than with invading conquests further to Asia (Sherdana, Seres, Serians, Sart, Kurds, Sarbans)

    Dacians were one of the tribes around Danube and hence reach in I2a-Din

    I think Dacians had dominant haplogroup I (I1?, I2a-Din , I2b ) with significant R1a of Thracians, hence similar mix to Serbs prior to settlement on Balkan, but I do not think they were ancestors of today Serbs...as Serbs are recorded to have settled Balkans from Boiki that neghbours Franks and white Croatia (hence Boiki = land of Boii = Bohemia/Bavaria) ...also I2a-Din south typical for south Slavs is not found in Romania but is found in Germany...
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    Last edited by how yes no 3; 20-03-12 at 01:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    The Hg I1 is the ONLY of current euro Hg that is totally absent from the ancient DNA record on the euro continent. It literally does not exists in ANY samples of ancient euro DNA.
    Do you seriously think that we have enough samples, in the right places, to expect more than that right now? Everyone who has looked at current I1 samples will tell you that it's remarkably young in terms of TMRCA, but quite old in terms of clade age, meaning that we don't expect there to be many ancient I1 samples anywhere prior to its relative late expansions.

    The center of diversity of I1 is around Schleswig-Holstein per Nordtvedt, by the way. There are no ancient clades with apparent origins far from that discovered so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    While in the sense that the Svears of central scandinavia are of adopted germanic culture, its 'germanic' in modern times, Hg I1 is not provably in any way the source or origin of germanic paternal ancestry, because it is totally absent in any provable euro samples historically. Given that they took over the germanic Geats they seem to have adopted german culture from the Geats.
    Who do you propose the Svears were, if not Germanic? And you're saying they brought I1 to Scandinavia from where...?

    And again, you're reading too much into the lack of ancient DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    Germany loses half its populations during the 30 years war alone, and many more with plagues and wars, so the modern I1 in north europe is coming in likely from the masses of I1 we KNOW were fleeing scandinavia during and after the DARK AGES, not in ancient germanic tribal times.
    Then why is North German I1 of the same subclade as English I1 for the most part? And Scandinavian-type I1 is much rarer there?

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    The modern I1 are most likely descendants of the many poor paternally 'Svear' descent farmers from scandinavia looking to settle father south for better lands freed up by depopulation while their own lands are now too crowded.

    They are in no way the historical angles, saxons, or germans like Nortvedt wrongly asserted starting a decade ago.
    And you say my theories have no evidence...

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    since that time, over a decade ago, we have many ancient y-dna samples from europe and in germany
    Wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    and the I1/germanic crowd has gotten more and more desperate since their tale has now fallen apart like many warned when Nortvedt started this claims.
    Nobody's worried, because we haven't had any samples other than Birger Jarl where I1 was seriously expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    Show me one ancient DNA discovery of I1 in europe before the dark ages expansions from Svearish Scandinavians that does come from legitimate source, and we can discuss you claims. For the time being, if they are not gibberish and disproven Nordtvedt is as close as you can get to that. He has made many promise to people who emotionally want to believe this claims, and even as they fail, they still seek to sell with emotions and psueudo-babble, what is failing them in provable science.
    OK, seriously. Listen up. We only have diversity analysis now. We haven't expected more ancient I1 than we have.

    And diversity analysis still indicates strong ties between Haplogroup I1 and Germanic peoples. Your assertions, on the other hand, don't match even a cursory subclade analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by pipinnacanus View Post
    Please. The I2 is isolated pools that were no longer in contact with one another and develop proprietary STR's and SNP in their isolation. They are all still aboriginal peoples who exist before the modern cultures we recognize even come into europe. They are adopted into these varied cultures. I2 exists in every population of europe. It held out against R1b/R1a arrival better in the Balkan because the terrain protected them from the aggression of the arrival R males better than in easy flat or open terrain.
    You're putting it strangely. STR mutations and SNPs develop linearly, not due to isolation, of course. And I agree that I2 is indigenous to Europe (I even call them Paleolithic Remnants), I'm only trying to investigate the reasons for the present distribution of its subclades.

    And you indicate that you believe the Paleolithic continuity theory for I2a-Din in the Balkans, but you don't present any evidence. So, I don't see why I should consider your theory. I've presented my theory based on geographic diversity analysis, STR dating, and a related subclade analysis. What do you have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    but difference is I2a-Din, Slavic Macedonians have lot of it, FYRM Albanians close to none...
    Are you sure in that? )))
    Take another look on data about Albania. Especially southern Albania.

    I like to read your posts because you have a rich imagination but I don't agree with you in many things. Too much speculations without historical sources. Some things which you told are true but many of them aren't.

    rgds

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    I see someones on this thread are keeping on making adventurous hypothesis based on possible common origins of tribes names, sometime very possible but the most often without any linguistic basis -
    I think we have to take official history as a basis and try to correct it, maybe challenge it when data make it possible, but not begin by building complicated hypothesis that seam to me as 'scoops' or fairy tales...
    NO offense...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gosh View Post
    Are you sure in that? )))
    Take another look on data about Albania. Especially southern Albania.

    I like to read your posts because you have a rich imagination but I don't agree with you in many things. Too much speculations without historical sources. Some things which you told are true but many of them aren't.

    rgds
    I am sure, I speak of FYR Macedonia Albanians ..
    there were tests done in Macedonia....

    south Albania is different story
    it was heavily settled by Slavs, plenty of Slavic place names there, it was conquered for long time by Bulgarians (in times when they were also holding Macedonia)

    Macedonia albanians have probably settled FYRM from north Albania mountains not so long ago in history...they didnot mix with south Slavs or Bulgar Slavs

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I see someones on this thread are keeping on making adventurous hypothesis based on possible common origins of tribes names, sometime very possible but the most often without any linguistic basis -
    I think we have to take official history as a basis and try to correct it, maybe challenge it when data make it possible, but not begin by building complicated hypothesis that seam to me as 'scoops' or fairy tales...
    NO offense...

    your last name is likely to correlate with set of people related to you
    tribal name is last name of the nation.... it sometimes passes on even when language and culture change...


    theory that i propose links spread of tribal names and quotes from history sources, with genetic findings...
    it is pretty good theory if you give it a fair chance...

    but mediocre people always by default discard ideas that they did not learn about in schools and hence are never able to discover anything, they just repeat known and will fail to recognize flaws in any school theory regardless of sometimes total lack of proof in it...

    e.g. school says Scirii are east Germanic,for mediocre mind that is absolute truth...
    but history books in fact discuss about them being Alan nation, being related to Venedi, even being Turkic..

    same is for Scordisci..their culture (archeological escavation) indicate Celtic culture, but that doesnot mean they were neccessery celtic speakers... if I wear jeans, am I American?
    Scordisci might be bad example as they probably were Celtic speakers as testified e.g. by town names.... but what if elite was Celtic and people not?
    point is also that languages of people change.... but genetics stays....

    genetics, same as tribal names, speaks about origin, language is about dominant culture or military...it can change very fast - e.g. not so long ago Celtic was spoken in France, latin only in a village called Rome.. people here keep speaking about germanic, slavic, celtic - but those are language groups and may have somewhat different history from genetic history... they are on different time scales as well..haplogroups splits happened much earlier in history, so at times when modern groups of languages are forming many peoples were already mixed genetically.....
    ... but knowing history, genetics and identifying tribal names of same origin can help interpret history...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    And diversity analysis still indicates strong ties between Haplogroup I1 and Germanic peoples. Your assertions, on the other hand, don't match even a cursory subclade analysis.
    when you say Germanic people, you mean as what? as Geographical Area?
    As modern Duetsh? as a Nation that existed since when? Before IE expansion or After?

    plz it is very important to make that more specific,
    cause personally I believe that Germanic Language was more East 3 millenium before,
    and Personally I connect I HG with Thracians-Getae substractum which was ruled by R1 than Germanic people ( non Geographical term)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Yes but the same results could have in case that we consider I2a as Thracian, especially the Triballi Thracian

    meaning that if I2a was before Slavic expansion to south, then it could be a mark of Triballi Thracians,
    and the results in Greece Albania Bulgaria and Cyprus will be the same as also in Italy,
    Seems to me like a long shot. If I2a would belong to Triballi Thracians, the epicenter of I2a would have been somewhere between Serbia and Bulgaria. Not Bosnia-Croatia.

    Also, notice that the peninsular Greeks, Ionian Greeks, Greek Islanders, Albanians, Albanian Macedonians, Western Anatolians, Cypriots and South Italians have higher rates of E-V13 and J2 than the - in part newly arrived - Slavic peoples. These haplogroups are indigenous to the ancient region and where present in the Balkans before most of the ethnic identities where formed. This means that they had all the time in the world to spread and dominate in the region.

    It is important to note that I2b as a rule comes at the expense of E-V13 and J2. It's very hard to see very high J2 + E-V13 as well as high I2a in the same population. This means they are competing haplogroups in that region. A slight indication that it is a new arrival.

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    Highest diversity of I2A-din found till now is in croats and also in moldavians from north Romania,from Neamt & Buhusi.
    Croats are another dacian tribe,they came there from Carpathians that were in those times in north Moldavia.
    Now that land belongs to Ukraine.
    As a very curious thing,moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi are more close genetically to croats,than serbs are to croats.
    Moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi:
    40.7% I2A-din,20% R1A1-M17 ,13% R1B3,7.4% E-V13,5.7% various clades of J2,5.6% G-M201,3.7% I1A-M253,1.9% I1c-M223 ...
    Compare this to croatian Y DNA,lol.
    There is an ancient population living in Carphatians from Moldavia and Ukraine,they are called hutsuls,they are linked to the mountains,they have a very high percentage of I2A-din and they speak a slavic language,they have the usual popular costume that looks like those posted from those serbians,which is almost identical to some romanians etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Highest diversity of I2A-din found till now is in croats and also in moldavians from north Romania,from Neamt & Buhusi.
    diversity is not the same as frequency...

    actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

    Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...

    Croatian origin of big part of this people is disputed as Narentanes/Pagani were by Byzantine historians captured as unbaptized Serbs.... in last centuries people were classified as Serbs/Croats based on religion... catholic = Croat, orthodox = Serb

    42% of I2a-Din in Croatia is big lie made by talking half of samples from 3 southern islands that were part of Narentania and where I2aDin is between 60 and 80%...
    in reality, Croatia has I2a-Din on same level as Serbia - around 30%




    Croats are another dacian tribe,they came there from Carpathians that were in those times in north Moldavia.
    Now that land belongs to Ukraine.
    well, that is hard to state as we do not know much about Dacians...
    but yes, Croats did have state in Carpathians in part that is now Ukraine and south Poland and perhaps even Slovakia...
    they may have been same people as Carpi and/or Heruli but there is no real proof for that yet...



    As a very curious thing,moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi are more close genetically to croats,than serbs are to croats.Moldavians from Neamt and Buhusi:
    40.7% I2A-din,20% R1A1-M17 ,13% R1B3,7.4% E-V13,5.7% various clades of J2,5.6% G-M201,3.7% I1A-M253,1.9% I1c-M223 ...
    Compare this to croatian Y DNA,lol.
    There is an ancient population living in Carphatians from Moldavia and Ukraine,they are called hutsuls,they are linked to the mountains,they have a very high percentage of I2A-din and they speak a slavic language,they have the usual popular costume that looks like those posted from those serbians,which is almost identical to some romanians etc.
    as i said Croats do not have 42% of I2a-Din
    its about how to lie with numbers...
    i can take half samples from Sweden and half from Sardinia and say there is 25% I2a1 in Sweden, but there is 0%


    regarding Neamt and Buhusi, if those counties are very different than rest of Romania, than they are not Dacians in origin..
    neamt county is named after a word that means german in Slavic languages which is likely indication of germanic settlement...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    diversity is not the same as frequency...

    actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

    Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...
    From what I've read, Ukrainians seem to have the highest I2a-Din diversity, with Poles a possible #2 (Poles become #1 if we restrict to I2a-Din-S only, although the Czechs are also important then and may challenge them for that title, as you indicate). Moldavians have a good amount of diversity, maybe #3 or even #2, consistent with the Ukranian diversity spike, but it seems to go down as you get farther from Ukraine, indicating that the origin is farther north than they are. Verenich's analysis is great for this, although I think that the forum he posted it on might be down now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    when you say Germanic people, you mean as what? as Geographical Area?
    As modern Duetsh? as a Nation that existed since when? Before IE expansion or After?
    After IE expansion, meaning groups of peoples that spoke languages that would today be classified as "Germanic."

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    diversity is not the same as frequency...

    actually, from what i have read (not much data yet about diversity of I2a-din in official publications) Moldavians have lowest diversity and Croats relatively low diversity...biggest diversity is in part of Ukraine in Czech republic and Serbia..

    Bosnia Croats have high frequency of I2a-Din but not so high diversity...

    Croatian origin of big part of this people is disputed as Narentanes/Pagani were by Byzantine historians captured as unbaptized Serbs.... in last centuries people were classified as Serbs/Croats based on religion... catholic = Croat, orthodox = Serb

    42% of I2a-Din in Croatia is big lie made by talking half of samples from 3 southern islands that were part of Narentania and where I2aDin is between 60 and 80%...
    in reality, Croatia has I2a-Din on same level as Serbia - around 30%






    well, that is hard to state as we do not know much about Dacians...
    but yes, Croats did have state in Carpathians in part that is now Ukraine and south Poland and perhaps even Slovakia...
    they may have been same people as Carpi and/or Heruli but there is no real proof for that yet...




    as i said Croats do not have 42% of I2a-Din
    its about how to lie with numbers...
    i can take half samples from Sweden and half from Sardinia and say there is 25% I2a1 in Sweden, but there is 0%


    regarding Neamt and Buhusi, if those counties are very different than rest of Romania, than they are not Dacians in origin..
    neamt county is named after a word that means german in Slavic languages which is likely indication of germanic settlement...
    I do not know why you do not take the ancient Serbians as non-slavic , but a thracian race...the Triballi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

    most ancient, dark ages and medieval historians say the serbian come from this thracian tribe, that where pushed eastward by the illyrians coming down from the north and later conquered by the gaulish scordisci. The serbs did not bring any I2a into the blakans if they where always in the balkans, they are in majority E HG.
    Its one reason to this day the serbs want their ancient homeland of kosovo

    Read link and all link at the bottom of the link presented.

    The only south slavs that came to the balkans was the bulgars, all the rest where not ancient slavic people.

    http://books.google.com.au/books?ei=...iballi&f=false

    search inside this book.

    BTW , the triballi as some historians claim became the moesians

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    From what I've read, Ukrainians seem to have the highest I2a-Din diversity, with Poles a possible #2 (Poles become #1 if we restrict to I2a-Din-S only, although the Czechs are also important then and may challenge them for that title, as you indicate). Moldavians have a good amount of diversity, maybe #3 or even #2, consistent with the Ukranian diversity spike, but it seems to go down as you get farther from Ukraine, indicating that the origin is farther north than they are. Verenich's analysis is great for this, although I think that the forum he posted it on might be down now...
    are czechs south slavs, ....no. Where they slavic in the ancient times ...no. So how can these west slavic people bring I2a-Din into the balkans?

    The only people that can bring I2a-din into the balkans was from Central europe. If there was no slavs there at that time, how did it happen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Seems to me like a long shot. If I2a would belong to Triballi Thracians, the epicenter of I2a would have been somewhere between Serbia and Bulgaria. Not Bosnia-Croatia.

    Also, notice that the peninsular Greeks, Ionian Greeks, Greek Islanders, Albanians, Albanian Macedonians, Western Anatolians, Cypriots and South Italians have higher rates of E-V13 and J2 than the - in part newly arrived - Slavic peoples. These haplogroups are indigenous to the ancient region and where present in the Balkans before most of the ethnic identities where formed. This means that they had all the time in the world to spread and dominate in the region.

    It is important to note that I2b as a rule comes at the expense of E-V13 and J2. It's very hard to see very high J2 + E-V13 as well as high I2a in the same population. This means they are competing haplogroups in that region. A slight indication that it is a new arrival.

    First of all Triballi is not in Bulgaria but in area of today Nis to Belingrad and Bosnia, a triangle area where I2a2 Din is High
    Second E-v13 is connected with Arcado-Cypriots and copper or Chalkolithic Era , its expansion in Blakns is about 2000 Bc
    Third, Greece
    Greece might not Have High I2a2 Din but Has I at a range of >20% and in areas where Slavic population never went Like mountain Crete, nountain Crete has I HG as Also Agrinion and Serres, in Greece I is strong in all areas except peloponese,
    In Agrinion I Haplogroup reach >35% as also in mountain Crete 20% and in Serres >30% high concentrations in Makedonia and Sterea
    the case of Cyprus is probably after the mycenean colonisation that extend Even to Makedonians
    remember that Makedonians occupy the island and build 2 Big cities, Ammohostos Famagusta if I remember was a Makedonian colony, that is why Cyprus has Big I HG instead of other population,
    considering Agrinion and king Agrios who was Father of Paion who was Patriarch of Paionians (FyroM)
    then surely I Hg existed in Greece much before the arrival of Slavic populations
    considering the above we can not Reject I Hg as imported, at medieval times,
    but the case of I2a2 only and that one only.

    as you the I HG was in Balkans and in Fact could be either half of population once,
    Although I2a2 Din is not that High

    Now if I2a2 was Slavic then Severi would have Enough, Yet in the lands that Severi settled (Plovdiv area) I2a2 is weak but is Strong in Sofia land of Serdi who were considered Celtic population

    on the other Hand we have I2a2 Din samples even to ucraine, but do we have in North of Bohemia were Serbs start to enter?

    All I want to say is that the same results with your analysis and way of Thinking give the Thracian case,
    Besides The Trballi are considered the 4rth type of south Thracians and their home lands is the triangle Nis Bosnia Donav west of Sofia (Serdi lands)
    1 is Odrysse
    2 Bryges Paionians
    3 Spapeans Ciccones
    4 Triballi

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    From what I've read, Ukrainians seem to have the highest I2a-Din diversity, with Poles a possible #2 (Poles become #1 if we restrict to I2a-Din-S only, although the Czechs are also important then and may challenge them for that title, as you indicate). Moldavians have a good amount of diversity, maybe #3 or even #2, consistent with the Ukranian diversity spike, but it seems to go down as you get farther from Ukraine, indicating that the origin is farther north than they are. Verenich's analysis is great for this, although I think that the forum he posted it on might be down now...
    i was actually referring to:
    1) old reference about low diversity of I2a-Din in Moldavia
    2) Verenich's analysis with a map that according to my memory did show hotspots of diversity to be: Ukraine, Serbia and Czech republic... as far as i remember he has also pinpointed that Serbs have significantly higher diversity of I2a-din than Croats

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    After IE expansion, meaning groups of peoples that spoke languages that would today be classified as "Germanic."
    it has a big meaning, since if we consider I Hg as Germanic Speaking and from area of Denmark starting point, Then we might Speak of a total different Way of IE expansion,
    my point is that if the proto I Hg happened in Denmark, and Denmark was already IE and that I moved and mutate to east until Kurds and Ucraine, then we have a collapse of all our assumptions, cause it seems like all R1 are not IE and the spread of IE is due to I Hg in Europe,
    Also we get that I in greece and in Kurds which is a later mutation of Denmark proto I
    that means that Germanic population moved even to middle East yet that devastation are not known, except Bryges and Makedonians or some Caucas I Hg
    that means that Brygians carrier of I moved to middle east and brought I there, so Brygian were Thracians so Thracian are a relative to Germanic,

    All I want to say is that if I Hg is considered as Germanic speaking, then all theories about R1b and r1a collapse or tremble,
    and then we might consider to start from a new basis,

    That is why I asked, cause if we consider it as Germanic area origin which later get IE and accept later the language of IE carriers (Greek Slavic Germanic etc)
    But if the 'mutation' of first I HG happened in a already Germanic speaking Land then we have a totaly different IE expansion

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    are czechs south slavs, ....no. Where they slavic in the ancient times ...no. So how can these west slavic people bring I2a-Din into the balkans?

    The only people that can bring I2a-din into the balkans was from Central europe. If there was no slavs there at that time, how did it happen
    The hobbyist analysis that Gosh cross-posted earlier claimed Prague Culture as the likely source, which seems feasible to me. You present an interesting challenge, though: If the proposal is that South Slavic peoples are more closely related to West than to East Slavic peoples, why do South Slavic languages share more in common with East Slavic? The answer is apparently: since the separation of the South Slavic peoples dates back to the early days of what might be called a "Slavic" culture, probably before the differentiation of the Slavic language, that means that West and South Slavic languages didn't develop their unique characteristics until after they separated. Since they were initially smaller populations than East Slavic, their languages probably evolved more quickly as a result.

    Obviously, the above is a lot of speculation on my part, trying to make sense of the pieces of this puzzle that I understand the least, so as always, I'm open to any corrections or counter-analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    it has a big meaning, since if we consider I Hg as Germanic Speaking and from area of Denmark starting point,
    ...before we go any farther, the proposal is that the large majority of I1 (not all of I) expanded with Germanic peoples, who were mostly R1a+R1b otherwise. And that proposal shouldn't affect our analysis of I2a-Din in the Balkans significantly.

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    A question for Sparkey:

    I don't have the exact reference but as I remember, Nordtvedt's calculations for the MRCA of Din-N was ca. 300 BCE and Din-S ca. 30 BCE But as you pointed out earlier this is not quite the same thing as the putative date for the emergence of the clade as such. Again, I vaguely remember that Nordtvedt also calculated that. Do you have the figures handy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    A question for Sparkey:

    I don't have the exact reference but as I remember, Nordtvedt's calculations for the MRCA of Din-N was ca. 300 BCE and Din-S ca. 30 BCE But as you pointed out earlier this is not quite the same thing as the putative date for the emergence of the clade as such. Again, I vaguely remember that Nordtvedt also calculated that. Do you have the figures handy?
    I don't have the raw number with error bars handy, but looking at his tree, it looks like I2a-Din and I2a-Disles diverged ca. 6000 YBP. Is that what you're looking for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I don't have the raw number with error bars handy, but looking at his tree, it looks like I2a-Din and I2a-Disles diverged ca. 6000 YBP. Is that what you're looking for?
    Partly. You mean the ancestor of I2a-Din presumably (back ca. 4000 BCE). Some continuing I2a1* or I2a1b* type. But what I was wondering about is the actual (not surviving) initiator of I2a-Din as I2a1b1a (Nordt. nomencl.) distinct from the MRCA. Or is that a misunderstanding?

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Partly. You mean the ancestor of I2a-Din presumably (back ca. 4000 BCE). Some continuing I2a1* or I2a1b* type. But what I was wondering about is the actual (not surviving) initiator of I2a-Din as I2a1b1a (Nordt. nomencl.) distinct from the MRCA. Or is that a misunderstanding?
    As in, when did the first individual to have the defining SNP of I2a-Din live? That would be between when I2a-Din and I2a-Disles diverged, and the TMRCA of I2a-Din. So, it's a range, not a specific date estimate, that we're looking at for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I do not know why you do not take the ancient Serbians as non-slavic , but a thracian race...the Triballi
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

    most ancient, dark ages and medieval historians say the serbian come from this thracian tribe, that where pushed eastward by the illyrians coming down from the north and later conquered by the gaulish scordisci.
    well, only source that talks about arrival of Serbs to Balkan is De administrando imperio, and it states that they have arrived from Boiki (Bavaria/Bohemia) where they have also originally dwellt.. this fits well with I2a -Din south spread among south slavs and to some extent in Germany, but not in east Europe...Bohemia/Bavaria also has place names Srby several times and in part of Bavaria neighbouring Bohemia is town that was known as Serviodurum... Bohemia and Serbia are also 2 of 3 centers of diversity for I2a-Din.. hence Prague culture reconstruction pointed out earlier in this thread makes lot of sense...

    btw. it is more or less very clear that I2a-Din has spread went along Danube and further along Black sea and into Asia.....this is in fact perfect match with 3 centers of I2a Din diversity: Bohemia (starting point for voyage down the Danube), Serbia (mid point) and Ukraine (end point) ...

    authors that you speak about do not speak about settlement of Serbs, they just call them Triballians...
    in same way some authors were using name Scythians for Huns and made similar generalizations by using a barbarian tribe from more distant history to name the one from their reality... its not something that can be 100% trusted... it was often derogatory...like when we say some person is Vandal...

    thing is I2a-Din is very typical trace for south Slavs....and I2a is clearly related to tribal names such as Sardinians, Serbs, and in Asia people like Kurds, Sarbans and white Sart... therefore I assume it was in distant past kind of name for a race not for tribes... Serians/Serres

    even in Greece there is Serres area and is reach in I2a-Din and is also where ancient Greek history document speaks of Serres/Serians living...

    relation between the name and haplogroup is for me more clear as reconstruction of its spread around Danube gives us another related tribal name Scordisci/Serdi...

    and reconstruction of sea peoples conquest with Sherdana having same tribal name (and living behind only single place name - of a lake in Egypt called Serbonian bog) again correlates with spread of I2a...sea people conquest, by analysis of order of conquest, clearly must have had actual stronghold in Kurdish area of today....but isn't Kurd in fact same tribal name as Sherdana? and what about Kurds being different from environment due to R1a and I2a genetics?

    Pomponius Mela speaks of Asia settled starting from east by Indians, Serres and Scythians... today people who partially originate from those Serres are white Sarts, pashtun Sarbans and Kurds..

    Seneca speaks of Serians along Danube, rulling over Scythians, in Serica (north of Tibet) and red sea...
    this is again mapped easily to I2a-din...rulling over Scythians = east Europe and north of Black sea... its clear I2a-Din has spread along the Danube, regarding Serica today hotspot of haplogroup I is in that area and in people who were known as Sart and white Sart..only question is red sea... but not all people live genetic impact... we know that red sea was where Sherdana had clashes with Egypt...



    essentially, what I claim is that Serb/Serd/Serian was a name of a race of I2a people, like Arabs are race related to J1 and Chinese related people with O... in fact, knowing that Swedes are associated with spread of I1 and Suebi (Swabians) with I2b and I1 we can speak of it being ancient race name for haplogroup I or its part...

    Serbs of today are just one small leaf of that tree... and their direct ancestors were not the Sherdana of sea people who gave Kurds, but according to only historic source writing about them some people who have in 7th century come down Danube from Bohemia where they have also originally dwellt (not necessarily continuously)...
    it is question whether those were Scordisci who lived along Danube originally from Slovakia to Greece and Bulgaria or Scirri who were recorded in Baltic areas where we can find I2a-Din south and also recorded in Bavaria, and also placed by some authors into Alans, same as Caucasian Serboi were put among Sarmatians /Alans . Or were perhaps Scordisci and Scirri/Scirrians in fact same people or two related branches in tree of I2a-Din?

    Triballians also lived along this Danube route, so they probably also had significant I2a-Din...so they were probably also of Serb/Serd/Sard/Serian race, but probably not ancestors of the Serbs who came to Balkans in 7th century...



    The serbs did not bring any I2a into the blakans if they where always in the balkans, they are in majority E HG.
    Its one reason to this day the serbs want their ancient homeland of kosovo
    it is easy to see that I2a-Din was for long time spread along Danube... I2a-Din was probably not originally present in Greece (except for Seres and Macedonia area and Cypress to which it came from sea peoples) and Albania...but was present and in fact very likely dominant along Danube.... for long long time....

    I believe that Balkan was originally settled by R1a...those would be Pelasgians or flatland/field/sea people...same tribal name is Poles (Poljaci with Slavic Polje = field)... again poles/pelast/pelasgians is originally about race name not nation or tribe name.. this is a race name for R1a1a7-M458 branch that is dominant in west Slavs... this branch has highest diversity in Serbia where a common ancestor is estimated to have lived 14KYA

    another race name for R1a is Rasena/Russians/Thracians/Rašani......in Europe this is related to R1a1a*(xM458) dominant in east Slavs... for samples in Serbia this branch has most distant common ancestor 11 KYA

    this all indicates long history of the spread of R1a in Balkan and east Europe prior to arrival of E-V13 and J2 people....

    reference about estimated age of R1a in Serbia:
    High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia
    Maria Regueiro, Luis Rivera, Tatjana Damnjanovic, Ljiljana Lukovic, Jelena Milasin, Rene J. Herrera


    when E-V13 and J2 proto-Greek tribes and later Illyrians came to Balkan they have partly assimilated partly pushed out Pelasgians to Pannonia where they are known as Pannonians...with spread of Roman empire they went to Poland.... similarly center of R1a Thracians pushed by Roman empire moves towards Russia



    The only south slavs that came to the balkans was the bulgars, all the rest where not ancient slavic people.
    i think Bulgars could have been originally same as Serbs and Croats and Macedonians - I2a din people... but part of those who lived in Caucasus....and perhaps became mixed with some turkic people... e.g. Huns...

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