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View Poll Results: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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  • Paleolithic continuity

    26 42.62%
  • The Early Indo-Europeans

    5 8.20%
  • Sea Peoples

    0 0%
  • The Sarmatians

    3 4.92%
  • The Slavs

    19 31.15%
  • Other (please tell us your theory)

    8 13.11%
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Thread: How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

  1. #126
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    Well personally I might remind you all that Iapetoc sugested that I2a is Thracian who expand to expand to Ucraine even to North of Caucas, (massageate) and return,

    Iapetoc believe that Goths primary land was Dacia and from there moved to Scan and return some of them mainly the vikings in Ucraine,

    considering the runic alphabet we find almost none in Balkan penisnsula,
    that means that runic must be brought by another culture,

    now we all know that elves move west, as also the druids,
    by Greek tragedy we learn that elven (elafos) worshippers center was Crimaia
    so by what understand N Thracians moved west to Germany and Scan while their lands passed to slavic,
    remember that satemization is early in south Balkans,

    for me the I2a is a double added,
    1 is after old thracian before the moves, part of it went east like massagetae maybe even to samara
    there took satemization of language and return
    2 a quite big % that added at slavic movements to south of Istrios (Donau)

    PS I had read the other days about a nation called Hrpt an avaric nation, if someone has info about that plz share,

    PS2 has anyone idea where the queen tomaris kingdom was?

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    Yetos,

    It's an interesting perspective you present. I assume that you believe that (1) is the "N" cluster and (2) is the "S" cluster. I think you've got (2) right, but you might be overcomplicating (1). For one, it doesn't look like the diversity of "N" is high enough so far south for it to be the Thracians, unless you're suspecting that they not only advanced on Ukraine, but were nearly totally removed from their origin point. If that indeed happened, you may be right, since the diversity of I2a-Din is very high in the Ukraine area. But the youth of I2a-Din as a whole doesn't lend itself well to being part of a well-established group during the early Classical Age like the Thracians IMHO. I'd look more closely at more Northern, isolated cultures, outside the realm of Rome's records. A more Northern, isolated culture would also better explain the close relationship to I2a-Disles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Yetos,

    It's an interesting perspective you present. I assume that you believe that (1) is the "N" cluster and (2) is the "S" cluster. I think you've got (2) right, but you might be overcomplicating (1). For one, it doesn't look like the diversity of "N" is high enough so far south for it to be the Thracians, unless you're suspecting that they not only advanced on Ukraine, but were nearly totally removed from their origin point. If that indeed happened, you may be right, since the diversity of I2a-Din is very high in the Ukraine area. But the youth of I2a-Din as a whole doesn't lend itself well to being part of a well-established group during the early Classical Age like the Thracians IMHO. I'd look more closely at more Northern, isolated cultures, outside the realm of Rome's records. A more Northern, isolated culture would also better explain the close relationship to I2a-Disles.
    sorry I ment N = Norh S = South,

    North thracians = getae = goths
    South thracians = the known thracians (bulgaria Serbia Fyrom parts of Bosna and parts of Greece and Turkey,)

    the story goes like this North Thracians Dacians or Getae moved from area to North and return via Volga river to ucraine,
    a part of them moved east to sammara and return as Slavic population with a satemized IE language like the Iranian populations,
    the rest Gothic moved west as ostrogoth vissigoth etc

    meaning that I2 goth people moved west leaving area to I2 south slavic wich added to the non movable I2a of the mountains

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Yetos,

    It's an interesting perspective you present. I assume that you believe that (1) is the "N" cluster and (2) is the "S" cluster. I think you've got (2) right, but you might be overcomplicating (1). For one, it doesn't look like the diversity of "N" is high enough so far south for it to be the Thracians, unless you're suspecting that they not only advanced on Ukraine, but were nearly totally removed from their origin point. If that indeed happened, you may be right, since the diversity of I2a-Din is very high in the Ukraine area. But the youth of I2a-Din as a whole doesn't lend itself well to being part of a well-established group during the early Classical Age like the Thracians IMHO. I'd look more closely at more Northern, isolated cultures, outside the realm of Rome's records. A more Northern, isolated culture would also better explain the close relationship to I2a-Disles.
    As a matter of fact. I had been musing some such similar possibility prior to becoming acquainted with the Nordtvedt dates. Here are some facts (the question is: would this be enough, and would it be compatible with other data?)
    (1) An ancient "Thrakoid" presence in Ukrainian territory is indubitable. We have the remnants of Thracian-type hydronyms (very few but enough) stretching north of the Carpathians as far as the border between forest-steppe and forest, where they abut on Baltic ones)
    (2) The BCE archaeological cultures which used to be attributed to proto-Slavs, esp. the Bilohrudivska culture and the "Scythian-farmer" culture could easily have been Thrakoid. Interestingly, there are no certainly Iranic topo/hydronyms west of the Dnipro, and linguists have admitted that the dan- dana- root could also be Thracian.
    (3) We know (both from archaeology and from Strabo) that in the early 3rd c. BCE there was a large scale migration of "Scythians" from the area west of the Dnipro into the Dobrudja (subsequently known as "Scythia Minor"). Some of these were certainly Iranic or Iranized royalty/aristocrats. But if (1) and (2) is correct, then the bulk would have been a Thrakoid population, which afterwards blended in with the Getans south of the Danube, so much so that by the time of Ovid, he found no genuine Scythians there...
    (4) Since we know of no historical countermoves from the south, we would have to assume that enough people remained behind (but then why so few Thrakoid top/hydronyms?) or that there was a big "Slavic" reflux from the Danube in the 7th/8th cs. which would explain the big I2a-Din numbers today.
    Right now, I still prefer the Nordvedt/Verenic scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Right now, I still prefer the Nordvedt/Verenic scenario.
    Ditto; but as you outline, Yetos' proposal isn't impossible, and it's fairly clear what will help establish it. Basically, we need old branches of I2a-Din (ancient or modern samples; ancient preferred) to be found in former Thrace.

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    not a reply but a question
    was it said about the age of the Y-I2a2 of the carpathians mountains of Romania and surroundings - because human settlements are old there, during the LGM and before, and are seldom or inexistant when we speak about Dinaric and Dalmatia regions - and the nearest regions (which knows the Thrakians) has allways been the center of exchanges Westward and Eastward, a very good place for cultural fusions and subsequent expansion (proto-Indo-Eur. and differenciation Kentum-Satem???)

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    just a mottley of facts and believings
    - For I know paleolithic or early post-ice-age settlements are very very seldom in the Dinaric Alps (West Balkans), even in Greece and the remnant of the Balkans - there would be some ones in the Eastern parts of the Carpathes and more in Hungary or Czechoslovakia -
    - even if it has to be taken with caution the dinaric phénotype is very common today in Hercegovina and in Yougoslavia as a whole AND TOO in the Carpathian Mountains of Romania - what 's more, dinaric types are present (even if less) in all the Carpathian Chain until South Poland, Slovakia, AND TOO in Western Ukraina all regions where Y-I2a1b-din is concerned -
    - it's not so ridiculous to imagine that the great Cucuteni-Tripolje period could have helped to some exchanges of population between Northern Greece and Ukraina (and further North-East when one sees to the Tripolje influence) - I can easily imagine that the rising and success of this culture (proto-I-E or not) had an effect on demography and could have multipied the population there favoring the diversity of I2a1b on more thant 1000 years (?) -
    - for I believe previous Slavs was as previous Scythes Y-R1a as a majority - what is reliable is that they can have mixed with this population of Southern-Western Ukraina where was found a lot of Y-I2a1b-din and some others (Y-J2? Y-G2?)- it's not sure at all the Slavs was the first I-Eans there; a lot passed before them -
    - so Y-I2a1b could have been carried westward by different tribes, Illyrians and others before Slavs, and after that slavized "Ukrainians" bringing Y-I2a1 but also along with some more Y-R1a - but even some of the Y-R1a could have been brought in the Western Balkans before the Slavs - it's discuted (always the problem of diversity of HGs and HTs) -
    - the argument of absolute numbers has some worth : but even if the bulk of I2a1b-din is not native of the Western Balkans, it doesn't signify they arrived ONLY with Slavs and so late
    - concerning the Albanians, some linguists said that the most of the latin loan words in their language showed a phonetic evolution typical or Eastern Balkans (as the latinized Romanians?) - their dinaric phenotypes tendancy could be based on females heritage (and yet: Kosovars had less 'alpine' types' and more 'dinaric' types but show also a dolichocephalic influence heavier than the Tosques of South Albania do ) -
    - I hold that there were a lot of movements in the Balkans on every side, and that today Albanians are a mix of "autochtones" and "aliens" : very inextricable- their original language is drown by foreign loan words of every kind if I rely on my readings - but concerning the geographical origin of the speakers of previous albanian I see them further East and without an evident link with the Illyrians -

    to come back to Y-I2a1b-din its recent demographic boom could have been between Carpathes and Ukraina, born by a upstream Y-I2a1 of Carpathian or Central-Europe origin more than one of the Dinaric Alps - the historical events can easily explain that a successful branch that took profit from several cultures, pre-I-E and I-E, could have populated Western Balkans
    at the time of the slavic invasions BUT also before them in more than a wave - present genetics data can hardly say more I think -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    - it's not so ridiculous to imagine that the great Cucuteni-Tripolje period could have helped to some exchanges of population between Northern Greece and Ukraina (and further North-East when one sees to the Tripolje influence) - I can easily imagine that the rising and success of this culture (proto-I-E or not) had an effect on demography and could have multipied the population there favoring the diversity of I2a1b on more thant 1000 years (?) -
    I still think that Cucuteni-Tripolye is a slight mismatch, as I explain here. At least, the diversification of I2a1b1a appears to have happened later (other I2a1b's are native to Northwestern Europe and are not really being considered here).

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    - for I believe previous Slavs was as previous Scythes Y-R1a as a majority - what is reliable is that they can have mixed with this population of Southern-Western Ukraina where was found a lot of Y-I2a1b-din and some others (Y-J2? Y-G2?)- it's not sure at all the Slavs was the first I-Eans there; a lot passed before them -
    I follow you here, but with a question: When do you think that proto-Slavic differentiated from proto-Balto-Slavic? Did it really happen long enough ago as to have happened before I2a-Din became an important part of the population's haplogroups? Because if not, then it's appropriate to assume that there was never such universal R1a dominance in the Slavs, just in the proto-Balto-Slavs, who form only a component of the ancestry of the Slavs.

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    - so Y-I2a1b could have been carried westward by different tribes, Illyrians and others before Slavs, and after that slavized "Ukrainians" bringing Y-I2a1 but also along with some more Y-R1a - but even some of the Y-R1a could have been brought in the Western Balkans before the Slavs - it's discuted (always the problem of diversity of HGs and HTs) -
    - the argument of absolute numbers has some worth : but even if the bulk of I2a1b-din is not native of the Western Balkans, it doesn't signify they arrived ONLY with Slavs and so late
    Please be more specific. Are you saying that you find the S cluster to be Slavic but the N cluster to be non-Slavic? If so, then why is the N cluster so omnipresent among the North Slavs? If it's the other way around, then why is S so much younger? I have trouble fitting what we know about the diversity patterns of I2a-Din into a multi-ethnicity pooling point model.

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    to come back to Y-I2a1b-din its recent demographic boom could have been between Carpathes and Ukraina, born by a upstream Y-I2a1 of Carpathian or Central-Europe origin more than one of the Dinaric Alps - the historical events can easily explain that a successful branch that took profit from several cultures, pre-I-E and I-E, could have populated Western Balkans
    at the time of the slavic invasions BUT also before them in more than a wave - present genetics data can hardly say more I think -
    Actually, other than the part about it likely being from many waves (I still suspect that the Slavic migrations was the only important wave), I basically agree with this. I think Central Europe is more likely than Carpathian due to the distribution of the rest of I2a1b.

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    I believe this I21ab to be from Noricum area and moved south, part of both the late Bronze Age Laugen-Melaun culture and Iron Age Fritzens-Sanzeno culture cultures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So there are several threads, all recently active, where the focus of the conversation has turned to (often passionate) discussions about how I2a1b1a-Din, the most common Haplogroup I subclade in the Balkans, got to the Balkans. But we seem far from reaching consensus on this forum, so here's a poll to at least put our finger to the wind regarding the direction this forum is leaning.

    I've included as options several different possibilities I've read:

    Paleolithic continuity: I2a-Din has been in the Balkans since the Paleolithic, and present distribution outside of the Balkans is the result of migrations out of it. There is direct geographic continuity for this clade from Gravettian culture and/or the Balkans Ice Age refuge. Proponents point out the age of Haplogroup I and the frequency distribution of I2a-Din. I've read Maciamo articulate this view, but I'm not sure if he still holds it.

    The Early Indo-Europeans: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Indo-European migrations. It was part of the "original" collection of Y-DNA of Indo-Europeans. Proponents point out that everywhere that Haplogroup I is dominant nowadays speaks an IE language. How yes no was fond of this theory for a while.

    Sea Peoples: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by seafaring groups not otherwise mentioned in this poll. The migration happened before history or early in history. Proponents point to the frequency distribution and the lack of historical verification for later migrations. How yes no explored this idea, and recently Pyrub has advocated it.

    The Sarmatians: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by the Sarmatians. Proponents of this view cite the STR dating estimate for the clade, the apparent Asian spillover of it, and the historical attestation to Sarmatians (but not Slavs) in the Balkans. Bodin has been the most vocal advocate of this theory here.

    The Slavs: I2a-Din was brought to the Balkans by expanding Slavs in the 1st millennium CE. Proponents cite the age of the clade, expert STR diversity analysis by people like Nordtvedt and Verenich, and dispute that history doesn't verify the Slavic expansions. I have supported this view, as have a few other posters.

    If you believe that multiple expansions resulted in the current I2a-Din distribution in the Balkans, indicate which you feel brought most or had the greatest impact. If you feel that the data is deficient, make your best educated guess.
    let me explain why sea people are listed there


    all we know is this map:

    http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/T...p for Hg I.pdf

    I2a-Din is estimated to spread from Poland towards Ukraine, Russia and Balkan...
    Balkan was settled with movement of Serbs and Croats.... and I2a-Din being common factor for all south Slavs that distinguish them from surrounding while other haplogroups widely differ is clearly speaking that much of it came with south Slavs, probably with Serbs and Croats.... there are some historical data that list tribes with names such as Serbs and Croats among Sarmatians.....


    in my opinion, I2a-Din was already in Danube basin before Roman spread to north...
    Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs pushed out of Danube basin towards their relatives Liakhs on north by Vlakhs (Romans)....

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
    by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
    the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
    same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
    attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
    made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
    called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    Lyakhs are no other than Lechs or Poles of today...

    this Danubian Slavs were based on description of their location given in russian primary chronicle in fact same people as Celtic Scordisci...

    Morava is Celtic river name, and it exist in Serbia where Scordisci lived and in Czech republic which is roughly area where Danubian Slavs settled... Serb related toponyms we find in west part of Czech republic
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbská_Kamenice and in west part of neigbouring Bavaria as Sorviodurum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing) and small nation of Sorbs (who call themselves Serbya on northwest of Chezh republic)

    worth noting is that Sorviodurum was one of the town of Raetia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia and that alternative name of Serbs was Rascians
    Rascians (Serbian: Raci or Раци, also Rascijani or Расцијани; Hungarian: Rác, (pl.) Rácok; German: Ratzen, Raize, (pl.) Raizen; also Ratzians, Rasciani and Natio Rasciana) was a name used to designate Serbs, or sometimes, in a wider perspective, all South Slavs
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascians

    I do not say that Serbs were Raetians... I think they were partly living in Raetia (e.g. in Sorviodurum) and we know that
    At first Raetia formed a distinct province, but towards the end of the 1st century AD Vindelicia was added to it; hence Tacitus (Germania, 41) could speak of Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg) as "a colony of the province of Raetia".
    Vindelici... = white

    for Serbs we know that they came to Balkan from land of Boiki where they were (same as Croats) called "white"
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    worth noting is that white is designation for west, e.g. Belarus = bela (white) + Rus = white Russians = west Russians

    now why Scordisci....
    because they lived in Danube basin prior to Roman conquest... note both the Danube and Morava river being in their area....



    note that from area of Scordisci, a tribe named Serdi entered Thrace and was Thracanized...
    in fact in my opinion Serdi and Scordisci are just Celtic and Thracian versions of same tribal name...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi


    I believe Scordisci were I2a-Din, and that their ancestors were Sherdana sea peoples...let me explain...


    Shar mountain (Shar Dagh in turkish) on border of FYR Macedonia and break away Serbia province of Kosovo...
    In Antiquity, the mountains were known as Scardus, Scodrus, or Scordus
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Šar_Mountains

    Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[4] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyriaand Paionia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

    Scordisci have tribal name preserved in Scordus mountain, which is Shar Dagh in turkish...

    I argue that Scordisci were further in past known as Sherdana sea peoples and were I2a-Din
    why I argue that?

    Sherdana who came from north and via seas (Black sea according to my interpretation of what is written about order of conquest of sea peoples - for more details see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...76-sea-peoples) settled in their conquest the area that is matching exactly the areas where Kurds live now.... and Kurds carry I2a-Din that by all means must have originated in Europe

    Kurdi is name derived from Sherdana, same as Scord on Balkan, which with Celtic ending gave Scordisci and with Thracian ending gave Serdi...

    I2a-Din is not spread only along Balkan, among Kurds, and in west Slavs... in fact, it is also widely spread in Ukraine and south Russia...this can indeed perhaps be related to Sarmatians.....

    if you look at Nordvedt map, from Poland I2a-Din has spread in tri directions: northeast, east and southeast...
    except south and west Balkan which was settled by I2a-Din only with early Slavs, this is Danube basin and area on north and east shores of Black sea.... and according to my projections this is where Sherdana started conquest.... from Danube basin and north shores of Black sea....

    note that cultures and languages of tribes change at much faster pace than genetics.... but tribal names are often following genetics...

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    maybe we should first focus on I2a-Din- south as it is younger and less wide spread.... so it should give us better clue of more recent history of I2a-Din that is present on Balkan

    i2a-din south.jpg
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    what we see besides Balkan, is settlement around Krakov in south Poland, which is most likely about white Croatia, we see line from Leipzig via Bohemia towards Vienna, which is likely about white Serbia, we see area in north Poland which corresponds to location of Germanic Scirii in times 1AD-200AD

    http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_3837.html
    note that Germanic Scirii are often coupled with Germanic Hirri, in same way as Serbs and Croats are coupled...we also see a line that goes from Hamburg, via Hanover to Frankfurt and Zurich, which is hard to explain....perhaps Helvetii...


    it is possible that I2a-Din south came to existence among Germanic people around Hamburg and from there it took two routes: one going southwards towards Zurich and the other went towards east and settled in north Poland e.g. under name Scirii(which is in my opinion of same origin as tribal names Serian, Zeruiani, Sherdana...)

    Scirii moved a lot accross east Europe and it is plausible that eventually they became Slavic speakers....

    I2a-Din North on other hand seems to have been already present in Balkans in distant past, so I think this is about Scordisci and much earlier about Sherdana sea peoples...

    so I expect that I2a-Din North in Kurds is North variant...

    I also think that I2a-Din North might have been Celtic people in historic times.... here Scordisci and Helvetii come to my mind... Scordisci who lived along Danube are likely Serians of Seneca who cross frozen Danube on bare foot.. while Scirii might be Serians of Seneca who rule over scattered Scythians....


    Scordisci fits with Russian primary chronicle speaking of Serbs among Danubian Slavs who were pushed out to north by Vlakhs (Romans)... Russian primary chronicle records collective memory of past, but those memories would probably skip language transitions, leaving possibility that those so called Danubian Slavs were not yet Slavic speaking at the time they lived around Danube... note that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians and thus must have incorporated significant E-V13 and also some of J haplogroups... that would explain why spread of E-V13 is relatively homogenous in Serb settled areas and much higher than in Croats ...

    Scordisci just lived and moved along Danube basin... so when pushed from Serbia they would naturally end up in Bohemia which is where they probably also originally came from... end Bohemia is land Boiki (that neighbours Frankia on west and white Cratia on east) from where white (west) Serbs came to Balkan to make Serbs of today....

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    note that historic record states Serbs come to Balkan from land of Boiki where they have also originally dwellt... such statement implies there was no continuity, it implies they originally dwellt in Boiki than spread elsewhere, returned to it, and only than came to Balkan...

    note that according to some sources molecular diversity of I2a-Din seems to be much higher in Serb settled areas, Bohemia, and Ukraine than e.g. in Croatia indicating much earlier presence in these regions... this if correct, excludes I2a-Din being Illyrian genetics and points out that expansion of I2a-Din to Croatia happened only with Slavs, while I2a-Din in Serbia was also present before Slavs... thus, Scordisci...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    maybe we should first focus on I2a-Din- south as it is younger and less wide spread.... so it should give us better clue of more recent history of I2a-Din that is present on Balkan

    i2a-din south.jpg
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    what we see besides Balkan, is settlement around Krakov in south Poland, which is most likely about white Croatia, we see line from Leipzig via Bohemia towards Vienna, which is likely about white Serbia, we see area in north Poland which corresponds to location of Germanic Scirii in times 1AD-200AD

    http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_3837.html
    note that Germanic Scirii are often coupled with Germanic Hirri, in same way as Serbs and Croats are coupled...we also see a line that goes from Hamburg, via Hanover to Frankfurt and Zurich, which is hard to explain....perhaps Helvetii...


    it is possible that I2a-Din south came to existence among Germanic people around Hamburg and from there it took two routes: one going southwards towards Zurich and the other went towards east and settled in north Poland e.g. under name Scirii(which is in my opinion of same origin as tribal names Serian, Zeruiani, Sherdana...)

    Scirii moved a lot accross east Europe and it is plausible that eventually they became Slavic speakers....

    I2a-Din North on other hand seems to have been already present in Balkans in distant past, so I think this is about Scordisci and much earlier about Sherdana sea peoples...

    so I expect that I2a-Din North in Kurds is North variant...

    I also think that I2a-Din North might have been Celtic people in historic times.... here Scordisci and Helvetii come to my mind... Scordisci who lived along Danube are likely Serians of Seneca who cross frozen Danube on bare foot.. while Scirii might be Serians of Seneca who rule over scattered Scythians....


    Scordisci fits with Russian primary chronicle speaking of Serbs among Danubian Slavs who were pushed out to north by Vlakhs (Romans)... Russian primary chronicle records collective memory of past, but those memories would probably skip language transitions, leaving possibility that those so called Danubian Slavs were not yet Slavic speaking at the time they lived around Danube... note that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians and thus must have incorporated significant E-V13 and also some of J haplogroups... that would explain why spread of E-V13 is relatively homogenous in Serb settled areas and much higher than in Croats ...

    Scordisci just lived and moved along Danube basin... so when pushed from Serbia they would naturally end up in Bohemia which is where they probably also originally came from... end Bohemia is land Boiki (that neighbours Frankia on west and white Cratia on east) from where white (west) Serbs came to Balkan to make Serbs of today....

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al1...page&q&f=false

    note that historic record states Serbs come to Balkan from land of Boiki where they have also originally dwellt... such statement implies there was no continuity, it implies they originally dwellt in Boiki than spread elsewhere, returned to it, and only than came to Balkan...

    note that according to some sources molecular diversity of I2a-Din seems to be much higher in Serb settled areas, Bohemia, and Ukraine than e.g. in Croatia indicating much earlier presence in these regions... this if correct, excludes I2a-Din being Illyrian genetics and points out that expansion of I2a-Din to Croatia happened only with Slavs, while I2a-Din in Serbia was also present before Slavs... thus, Scordisci...
    the Scordisci where celtic/illyrian mix and got there name from the failed celtic enterprise to take greece. Actually they where pure celtic when they attacked greece and mixed with illyrians later.

    the scirii went to the carpathians mountains ( montes bastanae) and mixed with the germanic bastanae, and later went with them to moden day kosovo on the request of philip V of macedonia around 200BC, over 60000 went there. The I2a would have come into the balkans at that time.
    thats what I read
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ge&q=scordisci tribe&f=false

    BTW, what are the dotted lines on your map, I2a areas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I still think that Cucuteni-Tripolye is a slight mismatch, as I explain here. At least, the diversification of I2a1b1a appears to have happened later (other I2a1b's are native to Northwestern Europe and are not really being considered here).



    I follow you here, but with a question: When do you think that proto-Slavic differentiated from proto-Balto-Slavic? Did it really happen long enough ago as to have happened before I2a-Din became an important part of the population's haplogroups? Because if not, then it's appropriate to assume that there was never such universal R1a dominance in the Slavs, just in the proto-Balto-Slavs, who form only a component of the ancestry of the Slavs.



    Please be more specific. Are you saying that you find the S cluster to be Slavic but the N cluster to be non-Slavic? If so, then why is the N cluster so omnipresent among the North Slavs? If it's the other way around, then why is S so much younger? I have trouble fitting what we know about the diversity patterns of I2a-Din into a multi-ethnicity pooling point model.



    Actually, other than the part about it likely being from many waves (I still suspect that the Slavic migrations was the only important wave), I basically agree with this. I think Central Europe is more likely than Carpathian due to the distribution of the rest of I2a1b.
    I'm not documented enough on the last HTs of I2a1b and I'm tempted to agree with your point of view - sure slavic colonization in South did the most or the work - but I have yet some questions?
    - what HTs are the commonest ones in present day Carpathians? (of Romania, say) -
    - if Y-I2a1b of Romania turns up to be the 'dinaric' one, why a slavic dominant people would have a highland repartition in Romania: the previous masters pushed back in mountains by a former vainquished population returning home?

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I2a-Din is estimated to spread from Poland towards Ukraine, Russia and Balkan...
    It's important to understand that Nordtvedt estimates Poland only because it is in between the Dinaric diversity hotspots and the non-Dinaric diversity hotspots of I2a1b1. But since there is such a huge geographic disparity, Poland is really only a wild guess.

    The recent finding of an out member of I2a1b2-Isles in Iraq might shed a bit more light on I2a1b as a whole... or just muddy the waters further.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I2a-Din is not spread only along Balkan, among Kurds, and in west Slavs... in fact, it is also widely spread in Ukraine and south Russia...this can indeed perhaps be related to Sarmatians.....
    Has there finally been proven I2a-Din found in Kurds? I recall Alan pointing out that we only have 3 tested Haplogroup I Kurds who we know the subclade for sure, and they've been I1, I2c, and I2a2a (old I2b1, not related to I2a-Din). The sample size is only in the low double digits for all Kurds who have been so thoroughly tested, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    if you look at Nordvedt map, from Poland I2a-Din has spread in tri directions: northeast, east and southeast...
    Don't read too much into the Nordtvedt map, it doesn't represent the temporal aspect and the branches may not be splitting at the right time/places. I find the Verenich maps for I2a-Din more informative, have you seen those?

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    it is possible that I2a-Din south came to existence among Germanic people around Hamburg and from there it took two routes: one going southwards towards Zurich and the other went towards east and settled in north Poland e.g. under name Scirii(which is in my opinion of same origin as tribal names Serian, Zeruiani, Sherdana...)
    This doesn't seem geographically correct at all. I admit that there is a curious diversity spike of I2a-Din in Austria (which I've generally assumed to be a pooling point), but nothing anywhere near Hamburg, or anything to suggest an East Germanic origin.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    Scirii moved a lot accross east Europe and it is plausible that eventually they became Slavic speakers....
    Yeah but I assume that they contributed mostly I1 and some I2a2a (old I2b1) in terms of I subclades, probably accounting for some of the interesting high I1 we see east of I1's higher divesity areas near Denmark and Northern Germany.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I2a-Din North on other hand seems to have been already present in Balkans in distant past, so I think this is about Scordisci and much earlier about Sherdana sea peoples...

    so I expect that I2a-Din North in Kurds is North variant...
    What's the evidence for I2a-Din-N being ancient in the Balkans though? I admit that the fact that N is more common that S in places like Greece and Romania (no evidence of it in Kurds yet though...) is a curious fact that any analysis must grapple with. But we just don't see a lot of diversity of I2a-Din as a whole in the Balkans, except maybe a little in Bosnia... certainly, it looks like I2a-Din is a later introduction there.

    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 2 View Post
    I also think that I2a-Din North might have been Celtic people in historic times.... here Scordisci and Helvetii come to my mind... Scordisci who lived along Danube are likely Serians of Seneca who cross frozen Danube on bare foot.. while Scirii might be Serians of Seneca who rule over scattered Scythians....
    It seems like a geographic mismatch to me, unless we're talking relatively late (like late Iron Age) introduction of Celtic culture and language to some population that had I2a-Din present. Tribes like the Helvetii seem certainly too western.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I'm not documented enough on the last HTs of I2a1b and I'm tempted to agree with your point of view - sure slavic colonization in South did the most or the work - but I have yet some questions?
    - what HTs are the commonest ones in present day Carpathians? (of Romania, say) -
    - if Y-I2a1b of Romania turns up to be the 'dinaric' one, why a slavic dominant people would have a highland repartition in Romania: the previous masters pushed back in mountains by a former vainquished population returning home?
    Romanian I2a is I2a1b1a-Din-N dominant from what I can tell.

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    The Dacians formed in the Linear Poterry culture area(Cucuteni-Tripilye culture is also a Linear Pottery culture).So i think they had Haplogroup I2a1b.
    Cassius Dio says that the Dacians were'Getae or Thracians of Dacian race'.
    So they speak a language similar to Thracians but they don't look like them.
    According to Ptolemey Dacia's borders were: Bohemia in the west,Dnepr river in the east,Pripyat, Vistula and Oder rivers in the north and north west.
    Cesar and Strabo says that the border between the Germanic tribes and the Dacians was Hercynian forest(southern Germany).
    Agrippa says that the Dacians lived till Baltic sea in the north and Vistula river, in the west.
    Dacian tribes like Buri, Piegetae, Biessi, Carpians, Arsitae, Racatae and Costobocae lived in Slovakia and parts of Poland.
    There were three known Dacians davae in Poland: Setidava(north of today Kalisz),Gildova(near Vistula river) ans Susudava.
    From 2nd century AD Germanic tribes pushed the Dacians eastward.The largest Dacian burial sites are by far those from Malaia Kopania(Ukraine) and Zemplen(Slovakia).So many of them lived in those lands.
    There is Chernyakhov culture where a majority of Dacians and a minority of Sarmatians and Slavs led by a Gothic elite.
    In Hungary Sarmatians serfs were Limigantes(Dacians or majority Dacians).Then the Slavs settled in those lands.I don't think they were too many.There's no decent density in the Venedi lands and they spread on a vast area.
    Lots of them stayed in the northern lands.I think that the Sclaveni and Antes were a mix people(a Dacian majority ,some Sarmatinas and a Slavic elite).
    The Slavs (also the Sarmatians) brought in the Balkans some of HG R1a not HG I2a1b.
    Florin Curta in his book 'The Making of the Slavs ' says that the Sclaveni was a umbrella term used by the Byzantines for those barbarians who came from north of the Danube.
    Theophylact Simocatta says about a Sclaveni tribe who raided southern Danube lands 'we called them Getae in the past'.
    There are many common words considered of Slavic origin in South Slavic,Romanian also Albanian, but you don't find them in North Slavic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    The Slavs (also the Sarmatians) brought in the Balkans some of HG R1a not HG I2a1b.
    So is the reverse true, that the Dacians are responsible for the I2a1b in Russia, Belarus, and Poland? I suppose somewhere like Northeastern Dacia is within range for the launching point of I2a-Din (although personally I think it's a poorer match than areas further north), but I'm unaware of any important expansion of Dacians on these sorts of places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Tamar Chabadi View Post
    I posted this in DNA Forums sometime ago in a similar discussion...I hope this helps. "What do any of you think of this from Ken Nordtvedt?

    From: "Ken Nordtvedt"....
    2. Second oddity is the nature of the three nearest cousin clades to I2a2-Dinaric in the tree of haplogroup I

    Closest cousin is I2a2-Disles which at the moment is not separated from I2a2-Disles by a snp. Disles clade is found primarily in the British Isles. The node where branches to Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago.

    Next closest cousin is I2a2-Isles separated from I2a2-Dinaric by two snps. I2a2-Isles is found mainly in the British Isles, although some evidence of presence in France and north German plain exists for the older two of the four clades of I2a2-Isles. I2a2-Isles clades started to branch apart from each other at least 6000 years ago, while the node where I2a2-Dinaric branch line and I2a2-Isles branch line parted ways occured 12,000 years ago.

    Next closest cousin is I2a-F whose ancestral line branched off even earlier than 12,000 years ago, and prior to the M423 snp which shows derived for both I2a2-Dinaric and I2a2-Isles. I2a-F is found mainly in France and British Isles (Scotland)

    ... We really have no reason to put I2a2-Dinaric in southeast Europe earlier than about 3000 years ago.
    http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...-08/1249581657
    Ken's a brilliant guy with access to a lot of data so I recognize that to disagree with his interpretations is something to think twice about.

    However, this specific issue is just speculative given the data available.

    Where Ken sees the SE Europe glass as "half empty" I see it as "half full" in this case. There are a number archaeologically attested cultural movements from SE Europe to the west and north. SE Europe truly is a hotbed of ancient activity. Remember, Ken said "Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago." We don't know where I2a2's MRCA was 5000 years ago. If you had to look for a place for this man to be 3000 BC from where he could spread all over Europe, SE Europe would be a good launch pad, just in time for the Bronze Age to spread from SE to NW.

    As a hotbed of activity, SE Europe's early I2a2 may have had a tough time surviving, all except the Dinaric subclade. The rest may have had to move on to safer or greener pastures to the NW, or die.

    Does anyone know this - is I2a2-Dinaric found in NW Europe and does it have more diversity there than in SE Europe? If it is more diverse in NW Europe, I'd have to go with Ken's interpretation. If not, I'd go with the SE Europe is home interpretation.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    So is the reverse true, that the Dacians are responsible for the I2a1b in Russia, Belarus, and Poland? I suppose somewhere like Northeastern Dacia is within range for the launching point of I2a-Din (although personally I think it's a poorer match than areas further north), but I'm unaware of any important expansion of Dacians on these sorts of places.
    Well, it is known that the Dacians expanded into the Pannonian basin and the western Carpathians and that they subjugated the Celtic tribes living there (Strabo states that they expanded to the edge of the Hercynian Forest), and it's also almost that there was Dacian presence beyond the Carpathians (as recorded by Ptolemy with "Setidava", which Diurpaneous mentioned), but it's unclear how dense Dacian presence in these areas was and how long-lasting it was. It's also unclear what happened with the "free" Dacians after the Roman conquest and later during the Migration period.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Ukrainian linguists have pointed to ca. 5 surviving "Thrakoid" hydronyms in the territory between the northern Carpathians and the Polessia, the northernmost being just south of the boundary between forest-steppe and forest zones. No toponyms however. It is possible that a very ancient population, related to, but not identical to the Getae and Thracians existed there in the times of the classical Scythian state. They were politically "Scythians" but would have spoken their own language. We know from Strabo that sometime in the early 3rd c. BCE there was a big outmigration from this area to "Little Scythia" in the Dobrudja. Perhaps the closeness of their dialects facilitated the assimilation of the newcomers to the Getae, certainly by the time of Ovid. There were no "Dacians" there (north of the Carpathians in Ukraine) until the in-migration of the representatives of the Lypetsk culture in the 1rst c. AD. These eventually fused with the local Peucini and were a part of the classical Gothic Chernyakhiv culture. If one wishes to see I2a1b-Din as related to this more ancient population (not the historical Dacians), there may be a case. Nordtvedt's dates would intimate that the Patriarch would have been someone left behind at the time of their outmigration to Dobrudja.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Where Ken sees the SE Europe glass as "half empty" I see it as "half full" in this case. There are a number archaeologically attested cultural movements from SE Europe to the west and north. SE Europe truly is a hotbed of ancient activity. Remember, Ken said "Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago." We don't know where I2a2's MRCA was 5000 years ago. If you had to look for a place for this man to be 3000 BC from where he could spread all over Europe, SE Europe would be a good launch pad, just in time for the Bronze Age to spread from SE to NW.
    I think that the takeaway point for I2a1b (old I2a2) as a whole is indeed that it's an enigma. I've been leaning toward Nordtvedt's early interpretation for it as a whole, especially considering that I2a1a, I2a1c, and I2a1* are all either Western or Central European (see my Paleolithic Remnants map). But the recently found out member of I2a1b2-Isles in Iraq may make me reconsider.

    But I don't think that extant I2a1b1a-Din specifically is so much of an enigma. It is obviously a rapid expansion from a rather recent founder from Eastern Europe, but probably not Southeastern Europe, more like Ukraine. The trouble is figuring out what population that founder came out of, and what population(s) spread his marker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Does anyone know this - is I2a2-Dinaric found in NW Europe and does it have more diversity there than in SE Europe? If it is more diverse in NW Europe, I'd have to go with Ken's interpretation. If not, I'd go with the SE Europe is home interpretation.
    It's basically totally absent from NW Europe aside from likely Eastern European migrants. Its diversity peaks are split between Ukraine, Moldova, and (slightly lesser peaks) Eastern Bosnia and Austria, see Verenich. Its cousin clades Disles and Isles are most diverse in NW Europe, pending analysis of Iraqi I2a-Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, it is known that the Dacians expanded into the Pannonian basin and the western Carpathians and that they subjugated the Celtic tribes living there (Strabo states that they expanded to the edge of the Hercynian Forest), and it's also almost that there was Dacian presence beyond the Carpathians (as recorded by Ptolemy with "Setidava", which Diurpaneous mentioned), but it's unclear how dense Dacian presence in these areas was and how long-lasting it was. It's also unclear what happened with the "free" Dacians after the Roman conquest and later during the Migration period.
    all greek and roman historians placed tribes on a map based on there locations, so there is a degree of error by mixing historians up

    herodous was in constantinople
    ptolemy in alexandria
    strabo from rome
    livy in NE italy
    tacticus from the rhine

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    all greek and roman historians placed tribes on a map based on there locations, so there is a degree of error by mixing historians up

    herodous was in constantinople
    ptolemy in alexandria
    strabo from rome
    livy in NE italy
    tacticus from the rhine
    With the exception of Herodotus, who was also significantly earlier than the others, the informations they provide are fairly consistent with each other. Also, Ptolemy differs from all of the others you mentioned by the fact that he deployed a rather modern coordinate system (with degrees for longitude and latitude) for major geographical features (coastlines, rivers, mountain chains) and towns.

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    The samples from Piatra Neamt(Romania) have 46% I2a1b.


    Piatra Neamt is an isolated city surrounded by mountains.
    There are 150 Cucuteni-Tripilye sites in the Neamt county.
    The ruins of the large Petrodava are just outside the city.
    I think that HG I2a1b came in Ukraine as a later expansion from west.
    Because there were endless migrations from the east( Kurgan people, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic people) in this area.
    And they couldn't have this HG.
    Some Dacian peasants could be moved to east and northeast by the Goths after the Sarmatians were defetead(the expansion of Chernyakhov culture).
    Later migrations and Kievan Rus state spread this HG.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamț

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurpaneus View Post
    The samples from Piatra Neamt(Romania) have 46% I2a1b.


    Piatra Neamt is an isolated city surrounded by mountains.
    There are 150 Cucuteni-Tripilye sites in the Neamt county.
    The ruins of the large Petrodava are just outside the city.
    I think that HG I2a1b came in Ukraine as a later expansion from west.
    Because there were endless migrations from the east( Kurgan people, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic people) in this area.
    And they couldn't have this HG.
    Some Dacian peasants could be moved to east and northeast by the Goths after the Sarmatians were defetead(the expansion of Chernyakhov culture).
    Later migrations and Kievan Rus state spread this HG.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamț
    I'm not so sure. Verenich maps the expansion of I2a-Din-N through Romania and into Bulgaria to the Slavs, which matches his observed diversity cline. Certainly, there is no evidence of a West-to-East cline into Ukraine. Rather, Moldavian I2a-Din-N appears contiguous with, and nearly as diverse as, Ukrainian I2a-Din-N, suggesting an expansion into modern Romania from Ukraine shortly after its initial expansion, which actually does not date back so far.

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