How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

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Nik said:
Just wanted to give my 2 cents after reading several pages on this forum about this topic.

I would suggest everyone interested to focus their attention in the Vlachs of Yugoslavia, Albania, FYROM and Greece and their respective haplogroups.

Studies have shown that several Vlach populated villages in Albania and FYROM show very high I-P37 concentration (sometimes higher than Herzegovina itself), indicating a non-Slavic origin of I-Din in the Balkans.

Similarly, despite the lack of proper studies on ex-Yugoslavian Vlachs, one can turn to history and realize that the area of Northern Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia were historically heavily populated by ethnic Vlachs (especially the mountainous areas) who only got assimilated into Serbs/Montenegrins, Croats or Bosniaks only after 15-16th century despite the strong Orthodox tradition (or Catholic sometimes).

An interesting proof of these Romance speaking or bilingual communities are the Stecaks (medieval monumental tombstones) made exclusively by Vlachs in the aforementioned regions. In the same time, we known from anthropological studies that these communities were and still are predominantly Dinarid/Dinaric-CM with Atlanto-Med minorities, indicating a pre-Slavic origin of the vast majority of the population despite their modern Slavic tongue.

These facts altogether do not prove they are simply Illyrian, but at least they give us strong hints of a Northern Illyrian/Pannonian/Dacian population been pushed both westward and southward during the Barbarian Invasions.

Korbyn: Its none of my business or anything but I've read yours and Angela's posts and it doesn't seem fair to accuse her of "having an agenda". She's merely stating facts while you're pushing for your personal opinion on the matter, which sorry to say but seems very illogical.

On the contrary, you appear to have the so-called "agenda" by bringing up topics about the Middle Eastern origin of the Albanians on a thread for I-Din. Maybe u should take her advise, do some reading and tone it down a bit. But hey, who am I to tell u?!
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It's not an agenda, it's literal. And there were no facts from her side, only mere interpretations....
 
Nik said:
Studies have shown that several Vlach populated villages in Albania and FYROM show very high I-P37 concentration (sometimes higher than Herzegovina itself), indicating a non-Slavic origin of I-Din in the Balkans.
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Where are the sources for these claims? Sounds rather ludicrous to me. So what now, this only shows that Vlachs are only Romanized Slavs?
 
Milan said:
Lol.
Just because I2-Din is found in some groups of Vlachs in perhaps same amount as the South-Slavs we will declare the haplogroup as "Vlach" therefore pre-Slavic,what will you say then about other haplogroups that match between them,then the Romanians that show the same haplogroups as their South-Slavic neighbors.
Extremely inaccurate about the Stecak tombs also about that supposedly "Slavicization" of Vlachs in the 15th and 16 th century lol.
They Stecaks were build by dualist believers of South-Slavic origin,Bosnian in this case there is many proofs of that,that case is closed.
Apart from that i would like to tell you that "Vlach" in medieval Slavic tongue in Balkans meant a cattleman.
I would suggest you and other of this thread not to confuse language groups with haplogroups instead of giving advices to others.
Finally about '"antropology" observation,sorry it is again the South Slavs that mostly have the "Dinaric" appearance,and are tall and well build just like the "previous" population of that area is being described in contrast to others that wanna be "Illyrians".
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What's with all the LOLs? Are u underage or smth? Just express your opinion and get on with it.

Anyway, the simple idea behind my post that u couldnt understand is that Vlachs are a pre-Slavic Romanized Balkan population, which doesnt make I-Din Vlach like ur logic works by assigning haplogroups to linguistic groups. So dear friend, if Vlachs have it in high amounts, then Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians had it in high amounts too. Is that too difficult to grasp?

These Vlachs that u call cattleman spoke a Romance language to the point that they even influenced the Modern Shtokavian speech due to their previous non-Slavic tongue.

And about the Dinaric "appearance", its highest concentration is in the area of Northern Albania, Western Kosovo, Southern half of Montenegro. The regions north and east of this area have a more mixed type with CM which makes their average height even taller like the case of Northern Montenegro, Herzegovina and Dalmatia. Again, linking a subrace to a certain linguistic group is pure idiocy.

And Korbyn, u r right when u say that I should provide evidence but im not here to educate anybody, so Google the genetic studies on Albania and Vlachs and you will find the original scientific studies on several villages and tables with percentages of each haplogroup. Like I said, I simply gave a suggestion to those interested folks, I wasn't trying to start a war with South Slavic people which are emotionally attached to the topic as their origin is at stake (the nationalists ones i mean, the ones who cant accept their predominantly pre-Slavic origin and similarity with their Albanian southern neighbours due to extreme hatred).
 
Korbyn said:
I just can't understand how a Swiss can be this clumsy and ignorant on the matter. The anti-Slavic propaganda must be intense.
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He is Albanian living in Swiss for sure,just look what he wrote.
 
Not like my expectations were high, but why did our conversation get personal? Clumsy and ignorant Swiss? Thank you for the feedback but how about u educate me on the matter instead of being offensive?

Korbyn, r u claiming that it is more likely that Slavs migrated massively, replaced 90% of the population (especially in the mountainous areas of the Dinaric Alps), and eventually got Romanized, then after a few centuries got Slavicized back? Because I see no other explanation as to why would Vlachs have a high percentage of I-Din.

Milan, it was actually the Yugoslav scholars that studied the Stecaks and through various contemporary sources identified the ethnicity of the areas with the highest concentration of Stecaks and how Stecaks appeared whenever Vlachs moved to the area. It was again ur own scholars that diged through medieval records and found that these so-called "cattlemen" had still maintained non-Slavic last names despite Orthodoxy, with many Latin and Arbanasi/Albanian last names.

And its again not fair or smart to state that I'm trying to lie when I'm simply sharing my opinion. If it pleases u, analyze it and research on my point and draw a conclusion for yourself. If not, then ignore it and move on. I have no interest whatsoever in arguing with u nor changing ur opinion, especially when it comes to such hot topics for Balkan people's origin where the pride and hatred make up 99% of the barrier together with stupidity. I'm not excluding the Albanian nationalists either just in case, same goes to everyone.
 
Nik said:
Not like my expectations were high, but why did our conversation get personal? Clumsy and ignorant Swiss? Thank you for the feedback but how about u educate me on the matter instead of being offensive?

Korbyn, r u claiming that it is more likely that Slavs migrated massively, replaced 90% of the population (especially in the mountainous areas of the Dinaric Alps), and eventually got Romanized, then after a few centuries got Slavicized back? Because I see no other explanation as to why would Vlachs have a high percentage of I-Din.

Milan, it was actually the Yugoslav scholars that studied the Stecaks and through various contemporary sources identified the ethnicity of the areas with the highest concentration of Stecaks and how Stecaks appeared whenever Vlachs moved to the area. It was again ur own scholars that diged through medieval records and found that these so-called "cattlemen" had still maintained non-Slavic last names despite Orthodoxy, with many Latin and Arbanasi/Albanian last names.

And its again not fair or smart to state that I'm trying to lie when I'm simply sharing my opinion. If it pleases u, analyze it and research on my point and draw a conclusion for yourself. If not, then ignore it and move on. I have no interest whatsoever in arguing with u nor changing ur opinion, especially when it comes to such hot topics for Balkan people's origin where the pride and hatred make up 99% of the barrier together with stupidity. I'm not excluding the Albanian nationalists either just in case, same goes to everyone.
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are you joking. i struggle to understand that you are a real person. its not an insult or being offensive, i don't understand how you think.
 
I think ur misunderstanding my point because I clearly said that haplogroups are not linked to linguistic groups and I made it obvious that I find that stupid. I am simply using Vlachs as the only numerous non-Slavic population in ex-Yugoslavia as we have no other ethnicities to compare.

I totally get your point by the only thing we r not agreeing is that Vlachs are well documented as a separate ethnic group, not just nomadic mountain shepherds. They have their own language and were distinct from Serbs, just like we clearly see in medieval Serbian, Ragusan, Venetian or Turkish registers. Take the case of Smederevo in Serbia where Vlachs were listed as a separate ethnic group, not as a separate professional group. We don't see in the registers Vlachs (shepherds), Seljaci (Serbs), Blacksmiths, Fishermen, Bandits, Pirates, etc.

All I'm saying is that I believe I-Din was always present in the Balkans, therefore Illyrians had it (especially the Northern tribes), meaning that I don't believe the E-V13, J2b, R1b, R1a, J2a, etc. newcomers exterminated them and cleared out the Dinaric Alps, only to be repopulated again by their Carpathian cousins a few centuries later.

Even I-Din turns out to be indeed only Carpathian, that still doesn't make it Slavic, as there are more suitable candidates like Dacians, Bastarnae, Scythians, etc. who inhabited the area and shared this common haplogroup between them before the Slavs came to finally assimilate them and move them further South and South-West massively.
 
Korbyn said:
are you joking. i struggle to understand that you are a real person. its not an insult or being offensive, i don't understand how you think.
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Are u going to finally explain urself or u want to be asked/begged several times before u answer. This is not a "Share your feelings" thread, so make ur actual point and spare us your emotional state at this moment.
 
Just to clarify something, are u actually in favour of the theory that Vlachs got their name from the God of cattle in Veles?
 
Can you stop posting? We really need a moderator to supervise more. We need more Moderators.

I don't really mean any offense by this, but I would appreciate it if you would stop talking about this subject. It seems like spam to me and unproductive.
 
Korbyn said:
Can you stop posting? We really need a moderator to supervise more. We need more Moderators.

I don't really mean any offense by this, but I would appreciate it if you would stop talking about this subject. It seems like spam to me and unproductive.
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I have to completely agree with u on this, as posting on how Vlachs can be a useful link to understanding the genetic makeup of the Balkans before the Slavic invasion is completely off topic and distracting.

We should instead discuss about high quality weed influenced theories of Daco-Thracians being Slavs, while Albanians are a bunch of nomadic horse archers from The Black Sea who skillfully penetrated through the Byzantine Empire unnoticed and in a couple of years subjugated the local Serbian and Greeks by eventually assimilating them into their heavenly superior culture, all these without even being noticed by the Byzantine tax collectors, not to mention higher officials.

Important to note is that the local Greeks and Serbs were so impressed by the new masters that they voluntarily renounced their previous identity, culture and language and became fanatic followers of their new cause.
 
Nik said:
I have to completely agree with u on this, as posting on how Vlachs can be a useful link to understanding the genetic makeup of the Balkans before the Slavic invasion is completely off topic and distracting.

We should instead discuss about high quality weed influenced theories of Daco-Thracians being Slavs, while Albanians are a bunch of nomadic horse archers from The Black Sea who skillfully penetrated through the Byzantine Empire unnoticed and in a couple of years subjugated the local Serbian and Greeks by eventually assimilating them into their heavenly superior culture, all these without even being noticed by the Byzantine tax collectors, not to mention higher officials.

Important to note is that the local Greeks and Serbs were so impressed by the new masters that they voluntarily renounced their previous identity, culture and language and became fanatic followers of their new cause.
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One question: When you get home at night, are you able to do it on your own or do you ask other people to direct you there. You don't sound normal!
 
You guys called for a moderator? Your dreams are fulfilled; you've got one.

The next person to post an insult gets an infraction.

The next person to post something that isn't about I2a Din gets an infraction.

The next person to argue with the moderation gets an infraction.

Every time you do it you get an infraction.

In case you've forgotten, once a certain total is reached, there's an automatic ban.

Are we clear?
 
DuPidh said:
One question: When you get home at night, are you able to do it on your own or do you ask other people to direct you there. You don't sound normal!
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that's a sarcastic post.
 
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