How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?

How did I2a-Din get to the Balkans?


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The Dacians formed in the Linear Poterry culture area(Cucuteni-Tripilye culture is also a Linear Pottery culture).So i think they had Haplogroup I2a1b.
Cassius Dio says that the Dacians were'Getae or Thracians of Dacian race'.
So they speak a language similar to Thracians but they don't look like them.
According to Ptolemey Dacia's borders were: Bohemia in the west,Dnepr river in the east,Pripyat, Vistula and Oder rivers in the north and north west.
Cesar and Strabo says that the border between the Germanic tribes and the Dacians was Hercynian forest(southern Germany).
Agrippa says that the Dacians lived till Baltic sea in the north and Vistula river, in the west.
Dacian tribes like Buri, Piegetae, Biessi, Carpians, Arsitae, Racatae and Costobocae lived in Slovakia and parts of Poland.
There were three known Dacians davae in Poland: Setidava(north of today Kalisz),Gildova(near Vistula river) ans Susudava.
From 2nd century AD Germanic tribes pushed the Dacians eastward.The largest Dacian burial sites are by far those from Malaia Kopania(Ukraine) and Zemplen(Slovakia).So many of them lived in those lands.
There is Chernyakhov culture where a majority of Dacians and a minority of Sarmatians and Slavs led by a Gothic elite.
In Hungary Sarmatians serfs were Limigantes(Dacians or majority Dacians).Then the Slavs settled in those lands.I don't think they were too many.There's no decent density in the Venedi lands and they spread on a vast area.
Lots of them stayed in the northern lands.I think that the Sclaveni and Antes were a mix people(a Dacian majority ,some Sarmatinas and a Slavic elite).
The Slavs (also the Sarmatians) brought in the Balkans some of HG R1a not HG I2a1b.
Florin Curta in his book 'The Making of the Slavs ' says that the Sclaveni was a umbrella term used by the Byzantines for those barbarians who came from north of the Danube.
Theophylact Simocatta says about a Sclaveni tribe who raided southern Danube lands 'we called them Getae in the past'.
There are many common words considered of Slavic origin in South Slavic,Romanian also Albanian, but you don't find them in North Slavic.
 
The Slavs (also the Sarmatians) brought in the Balkans some of HG R1a not HG I2a1b.

So is the reverse true, that the Dacians are responsible for the I2a1b in Russia, Belarus, and Poland? I suppose somewhere like Northeastern Dacia is within range for the launching point of I2a-Din (although personally I think it's a poorer match than areas further north), but I'm unaware of any important expansion of Dacians on these sorts of places.
 
I posted this in DNA Forums sometime ago in a similar discussion...I hope this helps. "What do any of you think of this from Ken Nordtvedt?

From: "Ken Nordtvedt"....
2. Second oddity is the nature of the three nearest cousin clades to I2a2-Dinaric in the tree of haplogroup I

Closest cousin is I2a2-Disles which at the moment is not separated from I2a2-Disles by a snp. Disles clade is found primarily in the British Isles. The node where branches to Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago.

Next closest cousin is I2a2-Isles separated from I2a2-Dinaric by two snps. I2a2-Isles is found mainly in the British Isles, although some evidence of presence in France and north German plain exists for the older two of the four clades of I2a2-Isles. I2a2-Isles clades started to branch apart from each other at least 6000 years ago, while the node where I2a2-Dinaric branch line and I2a2-Isles branch line parted ways occured 12,000 years ago.

Next closest cousin is I2a-F whose ancestral line branched off even earlier than 12,000 years ago, and prior to the M423 snp which shows derived for both I2a2-Dinaric and I2a2-Isles. I2a-F is found mainly in France and British Isles (Scotland)

... We really have no reason to put I2a2-Dinaric in southeast Europe earlier than about 3000 years ago.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-08/1249581657
Ken's a brilliant guy with access to a lot of data so I recognize that to disagree with his interpretations is something to think twice about.

However, this specific issue is just speculative given the data available.

Where Ken sees the SE Europe glass as "half empty" I see it as "half full" in this case. There are a number archaeologically attested cultural movements from SE Europe to the west and north. SE Europe truly is a hotbed of ancient activity. Remember, Ken said "Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago." We don't know where I2a2's MRCA was 5000 years ago. If you had to look for a place for this man to be 3000 BC from where he could spread all over Europe, SE Europe would be a good launch pad, just in time for the Bronze Age to spread from SE to NW.

As a hotbed of activity, SE Europe's early I2a2 may have had a tough time surviving, all except the Dinaric subclade. The rest may have had to move on to safer or greener pastures to the NW, or die.

Does anyone know this - is I2a2-Dinaric found in NW Europe and does it have more diversity there than in SE Europe? If it is more diverse in NW Europe, I'd have to go with Ken's interpretation. If not, I'd go with the SE Europe is home interpretation.
 
So is the reverse true, that the Dacians are responsible for the I2a1b in Russia, Belarus, and Poland? I suppose somewhere like Northeastern Dacia is within range for the launching point of I2a-Din (although personally I think it's a poorer match than areas further north), but I'm unaware of any important expansion of Dacians on these sorts of places.

Well, it is known that the Dacians expanded into the Pannonian basin and the western Carpathians and that they subjugated the Celtic tribes living there (Strabo states that they expanded to the edge of the Hercynian Forest), and it's also almost that there was Dacian presence beyond the Carpathians (as recorded by Ptolemy with "Setidava", which Diurpaneous mentioned), but it's unclear how dense Dacian presence in these areas was and how long-lasting it was. It's also unclear what happened with the "free" Dacians after the Roman conquest and later during the Migration period.
 
Ukrainian linguists have pointed to ca. 5 surviving "Thrakoid" hydronyms in the territory between the northern Carpathians and the Polessia, the northernmost being just south of the boundary between forest-steppe and forest zones. No toponyms however. It is possible that a very ancient population, related to, but not identical to the Getae and Thracians existed there in the times of the classical Scythian state. They were politically "Scythians" but would have spoken their own language. We know from Strabo that sometime in the early 3rd c. BCE there was a big outmigration from this area to "Little Scythia" in the Dobrudja. Perhaps the closeness of their dialects facilitated the assimilation of the newcomers to the Getae, certainly by the time of Ovid. There were no "Dacians" there (north of the Carpathians in Ukraine) until the in-migration of the representatives of the Lypetsk culture in the 1rst c. AD. These eventually fused with the local Peucini and were a part of the classical Gothic Chernyakhiv culture. If one wishes to see I2a1b-Din as related to this more ancient population (not the historical Dacians), there may be a case. Nordtvedt's dates would intimate that the Patriarch would have been someone left behind at the time of their outmigration to Dobrudja.
 
Where Ken sees the SE Europe glass as "half empty" I see it as "half full" in this case. There are a number archaeologically attested cultural movements from SE Europe to the west and north. SE Europe truly is a hotbed of ancient activity. Remember, Ken said "Disles and to Dinaric part ways looks to be at least 5000 years ago." We don't know where I2a2's MRCA was 5000 years ago. If you had to look for a place for this man to be 3000 BC from where he could spread all over Europe, SE Europe would be a good launch pad, just in time for the Bronze Age to spread from SE to NW.

I think that the takeaway point for I2a1b (old I2a2) as a whole is indeed that it's an enigma. I've been leaning toward Nordtvedt's early interpretation for it as a whole, especially considering that I2a1a, I2a1c, and I2a1* are all either Western or Central European (see my Paleolithic Remnants map). But the recently found out member of I2a1b2-Isles in Iraq may make me reconsider.

But I don't think that extant I2a1b1a-Din specifically is so much of an enigma. It is obviously a rapid expansion from a rather recent founder from Eastern Europe, but probably not Southeastern Europe, more like Ukraine. The trouble is figuring out what population that founder came out of, and what population(s) spread his marker.

Does anyone know this - is I2a2-Dinaric found in NW Europe and does it have more diversity there than in SE Europe? If it is more diverse in NW Europe, I'd have to go with Ken's interpretation. If not, I'd go with the SE Europe is home interpretation.

It's basically totally absent from NW Europe aside from likely Eastern European migrants. Its diversity peaks are split between Ukraine, Moldova, and (slightly lesser peaks) Eastern Bosnia and Austria, see Verenich. Its cousin clades Disles and Isles are most diverse in NW Europe, pending analysis of Iraqi I2a-Isles.
 
Well, it is known that the Dacians expanded into the Pannonian basin and the western Carpathians and that they subjugated the Celtic tribes living there (Strabo states that they expanded to the edge of the Hercynian Forest), and it's also almost that there was Dacian presence beyond the Carpathians (as recorded by Ptolemy with "Setidava", which Diurpaneous mentioned), but it's unclear how dense Dacian presence in these areas was and how long-lasting it was. It's also unclear what happened with the "free" Dacians after the Roman conquest and later during the Migration period.

all greek and roman historians placed tribes on a map based on there locations, so there is a degree of error by mixing historians up

herodous was in constantinople
ptolemy in alexandria
strabo from rome
livy in NE italy
tacticus from the rhine
 
all greek and roman historians placed tribes on a map based on there locations, so there is a degree of error by mixing historians up

herodous was in constantinople
ptolemy in alexandria
strabo from rome
livy in NE italy
tacticus from the rhine

With the exception of Herodotus, who was also significantly earlier than the others, the informations they provide are fairly consistent with each other. Also, Ptolemy differs from all of the others you mentioned by the fact that he deployed a rather modern coordinate system (with degrees for longitude and latitude) for major geographical features (coastlines, rivers, mountain chains) and towns.
 
The samples from Piatra Neamt(Romania) have 46% I2a1b.


Piatra Neamt is an isolated city surrounded by mountains.
There are 150 Cucuteni-Tripilye sites in the Neamt county.
The ruins of the large Petrodava are just outside the city.
I think that HG I2a1b came in Ukraine as a later expansion from west.
Because there were endless migrations from the east( Kurgan people, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic people) in this area.
And they couldn't have this HG.
Some Dacian peasants could be moved to east and northeast by the Goths after the Sarmatians were defetead(the expansion of Chernyakhov culture).
Later migrations and Kievan Rus state spread this HG.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamț
 
The samples from Piatra Neamt(Romania) have 46% I2a1b.


Piatra Neamt is an isolated city surrounded by mountains.
There are 150 Cucuteni-Tripilye sites in the Neamt county.
The ruins of the large Petrodava are just outside the city.
I think that HG I2a1b came in Ukraine as a later expansion from west.
Because there were endless migrations from the east( Kurgan people, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic people) in this area.
And they couldn't have this HG.
Some Dacian peasants could be moved to east and northeast by the Goths after the Sarmatians were defetead(the expansion of Chernyakhov culture).
Later migrations and Kievan Rus state spread this HG.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamț

I'm not so sure. Verenich maps the expansion of I2a-Din-N through Romania and into Bulgaria to the Slavs, which matches his observed diversity cline. Certainly, there is no evidence of a West-to-East cline into Ukraine. Rather, Moldavian I2a-Din-N appears contiguous with, and nearly as diverse as, Ukrainian I2a-Din-N, suggesting an expansion into modern Romania from Ukraine shortly after its initial expansion, which actually does not date back so far.
 
And the archaeology of Chernyakhiv does not support the theory of Dacian peasant movement into Ukraine. As I mentioned the only such discernible is the appearance and subsequent assimilation of the Lypetsk people (a small minority BTW). The work of Boris Mahomedov (published in 2001) has proved conclusively that the Dacian origin components of Chernyakhiv were principally those of Moldova + the small Lypetsk contribution. In any case one must also remember that the "Goths" in the sense of the denizens of Chernyakhiv, moved out massively in the 5th century, and were replaced by Slavs (who assimilated the meager remnants: this too is traceable archaeologically).
 
Piatra Neamt is an isolated city surrounded by mountains.
There are 150 Cucuteni-Tripilye sites in the Neamt county.
The ruins of the large Petrodava are just outside the city.
I think that HG I2a1b came in Ukraine as a later expansion from west.
Because there were endless migrations from the east( Kurgan people, Scythians, Sarmatians, Turkic people) in this area.
And they couldn't have this HG.
Some Dacian peasants could be moved to east and northeast by the Goths after the Sarmatians were defetead(the expansion of Chernyakhov culture).
Later migrations and Kievan Rus state spread this HG.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neamț

why do you not mention that Piatra Neamt means German rock and that it is in county named Neamt = Germans

this is perfectly aligned with my assumption that Germanic Scirii were also I2a-Din people...
last mentions of Scirii are in teritory of Romania....

Here are last known locations where Scirii were mentioned in historical accounts...

year 300 AD
entity_3837.jpg

year 400 AD
entity_3837.jpg

year 500 AD
entity_3837.jpg

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_3837.html
 
why do you not mention that Piatra Neamt means German rock and that it is in county named Neamt = Germans

this is perfectly aligned with my assumption that Germanic Scirii were also I2a-Din people...
last mentions of Scirii are in teritory of Romania....

Here are last known locations where Scirii were mentioned in historical accounts...

year 300 AD
entity_3837.jpg

year 400 AD
entity_3837.jpg

year 500 AD
entity_3837.jpg

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_3837.html



Well' Neamt 'term came from the Teutonic knights who build a fortress in this area.
They would soon leave because Hungarian king who was their master didn't like them anymore.
They settled near the Baltic Sea.
I think that Bastarna and Goths much better candidate for your theory than Scirii.
 
Well' Neamt 'term came from the Teutonic knights who build a fortress in this area.They would soon leave because Hungarian king who was their master didn't like them anymore.They settled near the Baltic Sea.
actually there is no single proof for connection between county name and Teutonic knoights...nor that the Teutonic knoights ever were there...it is how some Romanian historians tried to explain name related to Germans... but its just assumption
Some Romanian historians, including B. P. Haşdeu consider that Târgu Neamţ was probably a Teutonic settlement from the 13th century, when the Teutonic Order made incursions from Transylvania against the Cumanic peoples that were living in Moldavia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgu_Neamţ#History
I think that Bastarna and Goths much better candidate for your theory than Scirii.
well, Goths were not I2a-din carriers - that is clear from lack of it in the countries they invaded and settled..Scirii are pretty good theory because it is very likely tribal name of same origin as Serians, Zeruiani, Scordisci/Serdi, Shedana (Serbonian bog is a lake in Egypt named after them), Sardinia, Sart and location names such as Sard, Serdica, Serrai/Serres......I2a relates locations of all these people in past...I do not say that modern Serbs origin from Scirii (though it is a thought that should not be completely ignored), I say that tribal name and part of its genetics has same distant roots... I say that tribal name is related originally to I2a people..... and that from part of those people many Serbs and Croats origin....and just one small idea that at first may look far fetched: Note that Scirri are paired with Hirri...same language, adjascent locations...some historians considered that Hirri and Scirri are in fact same tribal name in different dialects..this maps exactly to what we have with Serbs and Croats...related tribes in adjascent teritories and with argued by some interchangable Srb/Hrv root of tribal names... same thing is with Helvetti and Scordisci as related Celtic tribes with adjascent teritories... do not you see a pattern there? it was I2a way of giving tribal names.... besides if all group I haplogroups except I2a-Din are Germanic, and if I2a-Din is estimated by leading researcher to have spread from Germany or north Poland (Germanic land in past), why would not it be logical that I2a-Din was originally Germanic...I have shown elsewhere that there are very strong indications that Serians = Cimmerians and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer = original tribal name of Germans... so for me this is solid theory...it is only question when did ancestors of modern Serbs split from the rest and were they in historic times before mention in history considered Slavic, Sarmatian, Germanic or Celtic, or perhaps even Turkic.. and genetics will show us that, if there is good will to investigate the issue..
 
Serians = Cimmerians + Scordisci/Serbi/Shedana (Shardana?)/ and so on... Are you sure of the correlations you seam put between these tribes names ? - No offense but it seam to me alike to the links assumed by someones about the Cimbri and Cymru (Combrogi) - I wait more details about the links between all these names and the time they appeared -
for DNA, I don't see Y-I2a1 having a big weight among fully evolved German cultures and tribes (maybe among some of their far 'pre-proto-ancestors'???)
 
read , goths in ukraine in link, second post, 2 weeks old

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/

David faux noted the goths as east germanic tribe with R1b3 , picked up I haplotype in scandza and gotland sweden, picked up N1c1 in vistula lands of the venedi and aestii , picked up further I haplotype and R1a1 from the germanic Peucini and Bastanae as they went to the black sea.

Who was eliminated from the "world" as tribes after gothic victories, Scrii, venedi, heruli, aestii, peucini and Bastanae from what I read , and there must be more tribes

Gothic strength lay in incorporated conquered people into their ranks.
 
for DNA, I don't see Y-I2a1 having a big weight among fully evolved German cultures and tribes (maybe among some of their far 'pre-proto-ancestors'???)

Agreed; the most obviously important I subclades in early Germanic peoples, as evidenced by both diversity patterns and modern frequency distributions, were I1 (all subclades except maybe AS4 and P) and I2a2a (especially Cont). The I2a1 subclade that comes closest to the Germanic peoples is probably I2a1c1-Western, and there may have even been some I2a1b2-Isles... but I don't see I2a1 as important as a whole, and certainly not I2a1b1a, unless we're imagining an unexpected bottleneck of it.
 
I'm not so sure. Verenich maps the expansion of I2a-Din-N through Romania and into Bulgaria to the Slavs, which matches his observed diversity cline. Certainly, there is no evidence of a West-to-East cline into Ukraine. Rather, Moldavian I2a-Din-N appears contiguous with, and nearly as diverse as, Ukrainian I2a-Din-N, suggesting an expansion into modern Romania from Ukraine shortly after its initial expansion, which actually does not date back so far.


"R1a" Thracians also Illyrians , Mycenaean Greeks and Macedonians could carry HG I2a1b(1500BC) from Cucuteni-Tripillye area.
"R1b" Thracians would be those from Cotsofeni and Cernavoda-Ezero cultures.
 
actually there is no single proof for connection between county name and Teutonic knoights...nor that the Teutonic knoights ever were there...it is how some Romanian historians tried to explain name related to Germans... but its just assumptionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Târgu_Neamţ#Historywell, Goths were not I2a-din carriers - that is clear from lack of it in the countries they invaded and settled..Scirii are pretty good theory because it is very likely tribal name of same origin as Serians, Zeruiani, Scordisci/Serdi, Shedana (Serbonian bog is a lake in Egypt named after them), Sardinia, Sart and location names such as Sard, Serdica, Serrai/Serres......I2a relates locations of all these people in past...I do not say that modern Serbs origin from Scirii (though it is a thought that should not be completely ignored), I say that tribal name and part of its genetics has same distant roots... I say that tribal name is related originally to I2a people..... and that from part of those people many Serbs and Croats origin....and just one small idea that at first may look far fetched: Note that Scirri are paired with Hirri...same language, adjascent locations...some historians considered that Hirri and Scirri are in fact same tribal name in different dialects..this maps exactly to what we have with Serbs and Croats...related tribes in adjascent teritories and with argued by some interchangable Srb/Hrv root of tribal names... same thing is with Helvetti and Scordisci as related Celtic tribes with adjascent teritories... do not you see a pattern there? it was I2a way of giving tribal names.... besides if all group I haplogroups except I2a-Din are Germanic, and if I2a-Din is estimated by leading researcher to have spread from Germany or north Poland (Germanic land in past), why would not it be logical that I2a-Din was originally Germanic...I have shown elsewhere that there are very strong indications that Serians = Cimmerians and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer = original tribal name of Germans... so for me this is solid theory...it is only question when did ancestors of modern Serbs split from the rest and were they in historic times before mention in history considered Slavic, Sarmatian, Germanic or Celtic, or perhaps even Turkic.. and genetics will show us that, if there is good will to investigate the issue..


The Transylvanian Saxons were the craftsmen and merchants of Romania in the Middle Ages.
Targu Neamt(town)=German marketplace.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons_of_Romania
 
The Transylvanian Saxons were the craftsmen and merchants of Romania in the Middle Ages.Targu Neamt(town)=German marketplace.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxons_of_Romania
so now we do not speak of Teutonic knights, but about Saxon craftman...sure there were settlements of Saxon in Transylvania, but neither Targu Neamt, nor Piatra Neamt are in Transylvania (and btw. Transylvania is by far biggest chunk of Romania)compare mapshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piatra_Neam%C8%9Bhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%A2rgu_Neam%C5%A3http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvaniain fact link that you gave provide three maps showing: initial Saxon settlements, remaints in 17th century, and population of counties by nationality in year 1930. Neither of those map have any Saxon or German people in Naemt county
 

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