The Beaker Bell Phenomenon

[Asturrulumbo]

That's the wrong way to look at it. Populations are almost never homogeneous. The Proto-Italo-Celts from the Pontic Steppes or Danube region almost certainly were an admixture comprising various clades of R1b-L11, including R1b-L11*, R1b-S21, R1b-S116*, R1b-L21, R1b-S28, R1b-Z196, + many of their subclades + other minor side lineages. Even subclades as deep as L20 (subclade of L2, itself a subclade of S28) or S68 (subclade of L176.2 and Z196) probably existed before the invasion of Western Europe by the Indo-Europeans. It's just that they were limited to a few individuals, and only expanded a few centuries or millennia later, either because this clan fared better than the others (more food, less war casualties, less diseases, more children) or because a member of that clan got into a position of power (new dynasty) that allowed him and his descendants to have more children than other people.

Don't think of the PIE as a single group, but more of a confederation of tribes, with plenty of chieftains and minor kings, a bit like in ancient Gaul, ancient Britain/Ireland and among ancient Germanic people. We can deduct from the analysis of PIE languages that PIE society was strongly hierarchical and patrilinear, but also clannish, just like the ancient Celtic and Germanic people. In this context, the dominant male (chieftain/king)'s lineage can easily expand exponentially.

My point is that S116* in Iberia is not the ancestral population of the subclades of S116 elsewhere in Europe. S116 is found throughout Europe, in Anatolia and even in Russia and Central Asia. Iberia has more S116 simply because the Indo-Europeans who migrated there just happened to have more of this lineages. Actually it is almost certainly not S116*, but a subclade that hasn't been discovered yet (or one of the numerous subclades that was discovered this year, like Z196, S182 or DF19, but wasn't tested in older Iberian studies).

Exactly. Haplogroup dating only tells us at what time a haplogroup could not have expanded (too early), but doesn't tell us when it did expand (that is, became of notable frequence in a population)

In Europe before the Neolithic. M269 or maybe even the ancestor of it (P297). M269 is older than beginning of the Neolithic era in Europe which started around 6500 BCE. So R1b migrated into Europe before 6500 BCE, I don't know precisely when if I must guess I would say at least 10000 BCE. Right before or after the last glacial period in Europe.

You know what, the agricultural revolution in Kurdistan started around 12000-11000 BCE. But spread into Europe only around 7000-6500 BCE.

Ah, so therein lies the problem, we are working on different assumptions... Though we could get into an enormous discussion about the origins of R1b in Europe, 'tis not the place to do so in this thread in my opinion.

[Goga]

Karahundj (Karahunge) Armenia's Stonehenge! This Megalithic structure/monument is one of the oldest observatories in the world and is older than the real Stonehenge in England.



http://www.astrologycom.com/armstone1.html

[Goga]

"Kara-henge has a history of 7,500 years and scientists believe, that there is a very tight connection between the observatory in Armenia and Stone-henge in Britain. Cara is the root word for 'carving' - that is, to cut out'."

http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/At...s/message/3854

http://www.explorearmenia.net/index....9F1350B49B197F





http://touchthehistory.blogspot.com/...tonehenge.html

[Taranis]

Karahundj (Karahunge) Armenia's Stonehenge! This Megalithic structure/monument is one of the oldest observatories in the world and is older than the real Stonehenge in England.

http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/5...gpagespeed.jpg

http://www.astrologycom.com/armstone1.html

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/6958/stonehengew.jpg

"Kara-henge has a history of 7,500 years and scientists believe, that there is a very tight connection between the observatory in Armenia and Stone-henge in Britain. Cara is the root word for 'carving' - that is, to cut out'."

http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/At...s/message/3854

http://www.explorearmenia.net/index....9F1350B49B197F

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8yhXdjtVrR...20/26+yura.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8yhXdjtVrR...20/12+yura.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8yhXdjtVrR...s320/3yura.jpg

http://touchthehistory.blogspot.com/...tonehenge.html

Goga, Megalithic traditions existed more or less all over the world, and there is absolutely no reason to assume Caucasian megaliths were in any relationship with those in Atlantic Europe. Besides, this thread is about the Beaker-Bell Culture, so please try to stay on that topic.

[Asturrulumbo]

"Kara-henge has a history of 7,500 years and scientists believe, that there is a very tight connection between the observatory in Armenia and Stone-henge in Britain. Cara is the root word for 'carving' - that is, to cut out'."

http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/At...s/message/3854

http://www.explorearmenia.net/index....9F1350B49B197F





http://touchthehistory.blogspot.com/...tonehenge.html

Never did I deny that there was probably a migration from Anatolia to Europe during the early/middle Neolithic (c. 6000 BC), I merely disagree on which haplogroups they brought. In my opinion, they brought G2a, and perhaps some R1b-L23

[Goga]

Goga, Megalithic traditions existed more or less all over the world, and there is absolutely no reason to assume Caucasian megaliths were in any relationship with those in Atlantic Europe. Besides, this thread is about the Beaker-Bell Culture, so please try to stay on that topic.

My point is that R1b in Europe is much older than the Neolithic Europe. It was here in Europe before the Neolithic farmers migrated into Europe. R1b came from the Southern Caucasus, remember that the main Y-DNA haplogroup among Armenians is hg. R1b. At that time Armenians were Urartu kind of people. (not Indo-European!!)

R1b was never Indo-European. The age of Karahunge suggests that R1b folks left Southern Caucaus at least 7,500 years ago.

Btw, Göbekli Tepe (11,500 years old) in Kurdistan is even much older than Karahunge in Armenia!

[Goga]

Never did I deny that there was probably a migration from Anatolia to Europe during the early/middle Neolithic (c. 6000 BC), I merely disagree on which haplogroups they brought. In my opinion, they brought G2a, and perhaps some R1b-L23

No, the main Y-dna haplogroup among Armenians is R1b!!!

I'm confinced that the Megalithic structure (Stonehenge) builders were R1b people and thus the ancestors of the Beaker-Bell Culture folks! They came somewhere from Anatolia/Armenia (Southern Caucasus) more than 9,000-7,500 thousand years ago! But they were NOT Indo-European! It was even before the Indo-European race existed!

[Taranis]

My point is that R1b in Europe is much older than the Neolithic Europe. It was here in Europe before the Neolithic farmers migrated into Europe. R1b came from the Southern Caucasus, remember that the main Y-DNA haplogroup among Armenians is hg. R1b. At that time Armenians were Urartu kind of people

R1b was never Indo-European. The age of Karahunge suggests that R1b folks left Southern Caucaus at least 7,500 years ago.

Btw, Göbekli Tepe (11,500 years old) in Kurdistan is even much older than Karahunge in Armenia!

Sorry, but the idea that R1b was in Europe before the Neolithic is hopelessly and irreversibly outdated, and we have discussed this before. The Neolithic sites of Treilles and Derenburg delivered no R1b what so ever, and the oldest find of R1b in Europe thus far is from the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC). This is a reality and we have to work with it. I also never stated that R1b as a whole was Indo-European, but it seems likely that the western European branch (L11) appears to be associated with the Indo-European migrations.

[Goga]

The Neolithic sites of Treilles and Derenburg delivered no R1b what so ever, and the oldest find of R1b in Europe thus far is from the Urnfield Culture (1000 BC).

No finding of R1b in Europe yet doesn't mean anything. Is there any real DIRECT evidence that R1b was NOT in Europe before the Neolithic era in Europe (7,000 - 6,500 BCE)?

That "R1b is native to Europe and was here in Europe" is very up-to-date, since the recent study in England and the recent discovery of y-dna haplogroup of Tutankhamun!

[Taranis]

No finding of R1b in Europe yet doesn't mean anything. Is there any real DIRECT evidence that R1b was NOT in Europe before the Neolithic era in Europe (7,000 - 6,500 BCE)?

Given how R1a has been found in samples of the Corded Ware Culture, yes, this means quite a lot.

Although the age estimates for various markers should be taken with a grain of salt, if you take a look at the various R1b markers relevant for Western Europe, they are consistently younger:

L23 - 5000 BC
L11 - 4,000 BC
P312 - 3,300 BC
U106 - 1,500 BC
U152 - 1,500 BC
L21 - 2,000 BC
Z196 - 1,800 BC

Mind you, if you take a look at the maps of Busby and Myres, it's clear that L23(xL11) and L11(xP312,U106) are very rare in Western Europe. If R1b was in (Western) Europe since the Neolithic (or earlier) we would see a lot more L23x and L11x.

That "R1b is native to Europe and was here in Europe" is very up-to-date, since the recent study in England and the recent discovery of y-dna haplogroup of Tutankhamun!

The recent study you are refering to is probably this. It is discussed in depth here how the specific article was misinterpreted:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...g-to-the-media

Regarding Pharao Tutankhamum, even if this is 100% authentic (which has been casted somewhat into doubt, but is not totally impossible), Pharao Tut was apparently R1b-M269, which doesn't automatically mean Western European.

[Goga]

if you take a look at the various R1b markers relevant for Western Europe, they are consistently younger:

L23 - 5000 BC
L11 - 4,000 BC
P312 - 3,300 BC
U106 - 1,500 BC
U152 - 1,500 BC
L21 - 2,000 BC
Z196 - 1,800 BC

Yeah, all these mutations are very young and they all occurred in Europe. But R1b lineage in general is at least 18,000 years old! So R1b in every European male is at least 18,000 years old.
It's even possible that your most recent mutation of R1b was 50 years ago. But this doesn't mean tha your R1b is 50 years old. It's still at least 18,000 years old!

[Goga]

According to you is the mutation of L23 7,000 years old and that L23 is native to Europe. It means that R1b in Europe is at least 7,000 years old! Older and it was even before the Neolithic Europe (7,000-6,500)!

Etc. etc...

[Taranis]

Yeah, all these mutations are very young and they all occurred in Europe. But R1b lineage in general is at least 18,000 years old! So R1b in every European male is at least 18,000 years old.
It's even possible that your most recent mutation of R1b was 50 years ago. But this doesn't mean tha your R1b is 50 years old. It's still at least 18,000 years old!

According to you is the mutation of L23 7,000 years old and that L23 is native to Europe. It means that R1b in Europe is at least 7,000 years old! Older and it was even before the Neolithic Europe (7,000-6,500)!

Etc. etc...

Sorry, you are again making completely false assumption here. You're also clearly contradicting yourself because earlier you said 7000 BC (9000 years before present), and the dates I gave are all younger than 9000 YBP. Even if we discount the margin of error for such age estimates, you still have to consider that it takes a time for a marker to disperse itself and become common in a population.

Also, as I said, if you take a look at the distribution of the older markers, such as this... (L11x)



...you will notice the general rarity/absence in Western Europe. That should tell you something.

[Asturrulumbo]

Sorry, you are again making completely false assumption here. You're also clearly contradicting yourself because earlier you said 7000 BC (9000 years before present), and the dates I gave are all younger than 9000 YBP. Even if we discount the margin of error for such age estimates, you still have to consider that it takes a time for a marker to disperse itself and become common in a population.

Also, as I said, if you take a look at the distribution of the older markers, such as this... (L11x)



...you will notice the general rarity/absence in Western Europe. That should tell you something.

That map is extremely interesting, the only map I had seen of L11* thus far is this one, and as you can see it is painfully small:
mapa L11.JPG. Where did you get the one you are showing from?

[Taranis]

That map is extremely interesting, the only map I had seen of L11* thus far is this one, and as you can see it is painfully small:
mapa L11.JPG. Where did you get the one you are showing from?

Sorry, I should have been more precise, the map actually shows not L11*, but M269xL11, and Spongetario uploaded it in the Iberian place names thread, and as far as I know he has taken it from the Busby paper. I agree however that it is very interesting.

[julia90]

I ve found this on wikipedia

physical anthropology of Bell Beaker people

Historical craniometric studies found that the Beaker people appeared to be of a different physical type than those earlier populations in the same geographic areas. They were described as tall, heavy boned and brachycephalic. The early studies on the Beakers which were based on the analysis of their skeletal remains, were craniometric. This apparent evidence of migration was in line with archaeological discoveries linking Beaker culture to new farming techniques, mortuary practices, copper-working skills, and other cultural innovations. However such evidence from skeletal remains was brushed aside as a new movement developed in archaeology from the 1960s which stressed cultural continuity. Anti-migrationist authors either paid little attention to skeletal evidence or argued that differences could be explained by environmental and cultural influences. Margaret Cox and Simon Mays sum up the position: "Although it can hardly be said that craniometric data provide an unequivocal answer to the problem of the Beaker folk, the balance of the evidence would at present seem to favour a migration hypothesis."[14]
Non-metrical research concerning the Beaker people in Britain also cautiously pointed in the direction of immigration.[7] Subsequent studies, such as one concerning the Carpathian Basin,[15] and a non-metrical analysis of skeletons in central-southern Germany,[16] have also identified marked typological differences with the pre-Beaker inhabitants.
Jocelyne Desideri examined the teeth in skeletons from Bell Beaker sites in Northern Spain, Southern France, Switzerland, the Czech Republic and Hungary for her thesis. Looking at inherited dental traits, she found that only in Northern Spain and the Czech Republic were there demonstrable genetic links between immediately previous populations and Bell Beaker populations. Elsewhere there was a genetic discontinuity.

[Asturrulumbo]

Sorry, I should have been more precise, the map actually shows not L11*, but M269xL11, and Spongetario uploaded it in the Iberian place names thread, and as far as I know he has taken it from the Busby paper. I agree however that it is very interesting.

Oh, then apparently I had seen it, but with a different perception
If it's , then it's still extremely insightful: In my opinion it supports my suspicions that there was a migration to Europe from Anatolia at around 6000 BC that brought M269xL11 to Europe.

[Maciamo]

Bell Beaker is not IE. It descended from the non-IE Funnelbeaker culture of old Europe. Malmstrom et al. 2009 extracted ancient DNA from three individuals dated to the non-IE Funnelbeaker culture in Sweden and found mtDNA haplogroups H, J, and T.

I agree that the Funnelbeaker and Bell Beaker cultures are related, and both descended from the Megalithic cultures. However I doubt that the beaker culture spread with any substantial migration of people. It was probably more just a vast trade and cultural (religious ?) network related to the megaliths that diffused the artefacts.

[Sile]

Beaker People are from south east france which was Ligurian tribes , they went to Iberia, to Rjone valley through Alsace into Germany and beyond, went through all of Northern Italy and also sailed to Sardinia. They where I2a1
They lost there I2a1 over time to R1b

Check internet for - Bell Beaker Ligurians

http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/46Delfino.pdf

There's more , ............

[spongetaro]

Beaker People are from south east france which was Ligurian tribes , they went to Iberia, to Rjone valley through Alsace into Germany and beyond, went through all of Northern Italy and also sailed to Sardinia. They where I2a1
They lost there I2a1 over time to R1b

Check internet for - Bell Beaker Ligurians

http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/46Delfino.pdf

There's more , ............

Thanks for the link. The Bell Beaker-Ligurians connection is interesting as Ligurian is an attested IE language.

[Goga]

Oh, then apparently I had seen it, but with a different perception
If it's , then it's still extremely insightful: In my opinion it supports my suspicions that there was a migration to Europe from Anatolia at around 6000 BC that brought M269xL11 to Europe.

No it was happened before the agricultural revolution in West Asia. If R1b folks migrated after 11000 BCE from Southern Caucasus into Western Europe they would be the Neolithic farmers who introduced farming in Europe. But that's not the case. R1b folks who migrated into Europe didn't bring farming with them.

So it was even before the agricultural revolution took place in West Asia!

[Goga]

Beaker People are from south east france which was Ligurian tribes , they went to Iberia, to Rjone valley through Alsace into Germany and beyond, went through all of Northern Italy and also sailed to Sardinia. They where I2a1
They lost there I2a1 over time to R1b

Check internet for - Bell Beaker Ligurians

http://mgu.bg/geoarchmin/naterials/46Delfino.pdf

There's more , ............

Very interesting view of point. I'll think about that!

[Asturrulumbo]

No it was happened before the agricultural revolution in West Asia. If R1b folks migrated after 11000 BCE from Southern Caucasus into Western Europe they would be the Neolithic farmers who introduced farming in Europe. But that's not the case. R1b folks who migrated into Europe didn't bring farming with them.

So it was even before the agricultural revolution took place in West Asia!

No, I don't mean they brought farming with them, by 6000 BC there was already farming in Southeast Europe. I am not talking about the first Neolithic cultures of Europe (Karanovo, Sesklo, Starcevo), but rather about the Dudeşti culture of southeast Romania, with clear links to Anatolia.

[spongetaro]

I agree that the Funnelbeaker and Bell Beaker cultures are related, and both descended from the Megalithic cultures. However I doubt that the beaker culture spread with any substantial migration of people. It was probably more just a vast trade and cultural (religious ?) network related to the megaliths that diffused the artefacts.

No real link with previous culture have been established by the Archeologist community so far.
The archeological data only tells us that the first Bell Beakers artifacts are found in Portugal.

[Taranis]

No real link with previous culture have been established by the Archeologist community so far.
The archeological data only tells us that the first Bell Beakers artifacts are found in Portugal.

Yes, and hence the idea that Beaker-Bell was originally a native phenomenon in Portugal is rather tempting: these Portuguese sites are simply too ancient too far in the west to be genuinely Indo-European. I mean, yes, I am aware of the stelae people hypothesis, but I personally find it far from convincing due to the fact that no stelae have been found anywhere along the proposed route, notably not in eastern Iberia.

I would argue that whatever language the original Beaker-Bell people spoke, but I would argue that this language is the source of the metal/metal-workings terms in Basque.