The elusive non-Germanic I1

1. The shortage of I1 remains found in the region. If I1 had been there for a sizable chunk of time, more ancient I1 should be showing up... I did find some I1 remains, in a cemetery in Central Germany that dates back to 450 A.D.-550 A.D. (Pipicananus had claimed 700-800 A.D. as the introduction period so he was off there) , but this overall I1 shortage does make me think. Is it due to burial practices? Doggerland being underwater? Or the fact that I1 was further north or east?

The reason we haven't found any is because we haven't sampled any, as I kept trying to explain to pipinnacanus. The Danish study will be the first prehistoric one where there is a reasonable expectation that we might find some I1. And even then, it's not a sure thing, even if the Jutland or Northern Germany theories are correct. It depends on the sample sizes. And even if we get huge sample sizes and show that there was no I1 in Denmark in the Mesolithic, we still have to figure out where it was. I don't know of a good reason to assume northeast. If Denmark and Germany were ruled out, I'd guess directly east, like maybe Poland or even Belarus. Belarus is intriguing because, although there is no current evidence of ancient I1 there AFAIK, it is severely undersampled. But I1 is just too young in Finland to look closely there.

2. The Nordic meta-myths having their origins in Finland.

That doesn't seem correct. Norse myths are largely shared with other Germanic groups; Finnish myths are largely shared with Estonian myths. Am I misunderstanding what you mean?

3. The I1 map distribution map... epicenter is in between East Sweden and West Finland.

Yeah, but almost all that Finnish I1 is I1d3. Try to figure out the distribution of the earliest branches instead of downstream clades like I1d3 if you want to determine I1 origins. Although much rarer, I1-Z131 tells a much more important story in terms of origins than I1d3 does. It is distributed in Belgium, the Czech Republic, Germany, etc. Central Europe again? Hm...

The age of I1 and it's TMRCA has bounced around enough at this point to have me frustrated. Until this genetic dating gets more precise, we might have to look at other methods to start dating I1.

How much do you think it has bounced around? Nordtvedt's methodology has kept it at between 4000-5000YBP for as long as I can remember, and Robb always seems to have a systematically older date, but not too much, and his SNP dating agrees roughly as well. Klyosov hasn't updated his 4000YBP estimate, I don't think, which roughly corresponds to Nordtvedt's estimate for the Z58/L22 branching event.
 
How much do you think it has bounced around? Nordtvedt's methodology has kept it at between 4000-5000YBP for as long as I can remember, and Robb always seems to have a systematically older date, but not too much, and his SNP dating agrees roughly as well. Klyosov hasn't updated his 4000YBP estimate, I don't think, which roughly corresponds to Nordtvedt's estimate for the Z58/L22 branching event.

It makes sense. This is the time when agriculture was embraced around Baltic Sea region. I1 was the most successful clad of I in the area to adopt agriculture first, therefore spreading around the fastest.
If agriculture spread to Scandinavia via Bell Beaker culture it would mean that I1 could come and spread from North Germany and Denmark area.
There is also a big chance that big scale agriculture of north came through Corded Ware culture. They were the ones first using copper axes on big scale, superior to stone axes to clear thick northern forest, making fields for wheat and meadows for herds. The later was important too, because most likely they were the ones bringing lactose persistent gene to North, from steppe. R1a folks spreading farming through forests from steppe to north of Europe. If this scenario is the one, it would mean that I1 learned agriculture somewhere around Poland, and carried it over to Scandinavia together with R1a. Making I1 most successful I in this region.
 
It makes sense. This is the time when agriculture was embraced around Baltic Sea region. I1 was the most successful clad of I in the area to adopt agriculture first, therefore spreading around the fastest.
If agriculture spread to Scandinavia via Bell Beaker culture it would mean that I1 could come and spread from North Germany and Denmark area.

And since northern Germany is a very fertile soil (maybe also Poland, I don't know), it is a likely place for ancient growth of agricultural populations, probably I1.
 
so who is right ken wityh 4000- 5000 yrs ago or terry with 7000 yrs ago?
 
TJ, it's actually a larger window than that... Nordvedt's timeline could be as late 4,000 and Robb's could timeline could be as early as 10,000-- so potentially that leaves a 6,000 year window. Sparkey may have more up to date data though, but the last I read the window could be this large.

To me it seems like the SNP's are driving the numbers earlier, but again Sparkey is the expert so I'm going to defer to him...
 
Here's something I've been mulling over... and it would effect all y-DNA haplogroups, although some possibly more than others.

Our planet has a long history of climate shifts (ice-ages followed by warming events) which would seem to be directly related to solar output. So my thought is, what if the y-mutations are not constant? What if the change rate increases with solar radiation peaks, and then genetic alterations calm down with lower solar activity and cooler weather? Maybe the evolutionary line isn't a straight x/y axis line of mutational events, but a series of accelerated bursts reliant on solar radiation followed by calm periods... I wonder if there's a way to capture this potential fly in the ointment. Food for thought anyway.
 
ive never really thought about it like that before,,,make you think.


would i1p and i1as4 wales be considered nordic non germanic
 
I think they mentioned those two clades in previous posts in this thread.

I1-P and I1-AS4 are odd. Almost as odd as the 14/22/15 complex, at least the complex group is odd to me!
 
does anyone have any new info on the i1p and as4 wales
 
is the place of origin for i1 still north gernamy?
 
Most probably TJ, Northern Germany or Jutland. Danish scientists are going back and testing older remains for y-haplogroups, so these new data points should enable us to build a more accurate history of I1's journey through time.

I'm a bit of a non-conformist though and am looking East and North in the meantime... our I1 line in particular is highly mobile because of the boat connection, so this factor adds an extra wrinkle in placing the tribe. We are lucky to have guys like Ken Nordvedt and Terry Robb crunching numbers which has helped enormously in the hunt. If they say Northern Germany/Jutland, that's almost certainly where it's at, but this is an emerging field so I do like to keep options on the table.
 
one thing i keep hearing is that i1 is nordic,is the pre germanic i1 nordic ,thanks
 
I1 can be considered "Nordic" in the pre-Germanic era, but not in the Scandinavian Nordic sense of the later era.
 
Here's something I've been mulling over... and it would effect all y-DNA haplogroups, although some possibly more than others.

Our planet has a long history of climate shifts (ice-ages followed by warming events) which would seem to be directly related to solar output. So my thought is, what if the y-mutations are not constant? What if the change rate increases with solar radiation peaks, and then genetic alterations calm down with lower solar activity and cooler weather? Maybe the evolutionary line isn't a straight x/y axis line of mutational events, but a series of accelerated bursts reliant on solar radiation followed by calm periods... I wonder if there's a way to capture this potential fly in the ointment. Food for thought anyway.

Theoretically it should have an effect. Some recent explosions of near supernovas might have effect too, lots of Gama rays. Or some of our ancestors living in areas of radioactive rocks or radioactive well water might have effect of accelerating mutation.
I can bet that some of them found and played with warm, glowing, magical rocks. Surely they were punished by gods and died, but others afraid of these rocks survived, with more mutations than they could wish for.

One a margin here I would like to mention how weird nature can be. There are people born with two different DNA, called Chimera.
One DNA is of new cell, the other can migrated (cell fusion) from a mother in later stages. The skin sample of dna could give different results than hart dna.
Other nature screw-ups are people born with three sex chromosomes XXY. How am I? lol
 
TJ, this should be an easy question to answer, but right now it isn't. Simply put, we don't know where proto I1 became I1. Some say the Balkans, some say Iran, some say the Caucus... it's still up in the air. If it is one of these three, then pre-Germanic I1 simply wouldn't be Nordic because it wasn't located in the North. If it came into existence in Central Europe... not Nordic. Northern Germany gets cloudier, and if came into existence in Jutland... then I would call early I1 Nordic. This is a subjective answer though.

It sounds like you are Z63 from your description which is an interesting line. If I remember correctly, it has flagged in what is now England, Germany, and Russia (or close to Russia anyway). So now it's time to do your homework... did you have any 37 matches on your STR's? If so where? Start sending emails. On FTDNA are other surnames popping up with matches in the various projects? Try to link to a famous person in history or at least a core tribal group.

And regarding your Norse question... it sounds like you might be Anglo-Saxon at some point. If you can link to the Anglyn tribe especially (or anything further North), I would consider that Nordic. Again this is subjective. Some people may disagree, but if that's the case send them a link to the wikipedia I1 map and tell them to pound some sand. If Spencer Wells can call R1b Cro-Magnon, you can call Anglyn tribe Norse. You have my permission. Which isn't worth much... but you have it nevertheless. :)
 
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lol thanks for the info and advice
 
Lebrok I'm glad you said that about the meteor radiation-- I was thinking the exact same thing! They didn't have Fukushima back then (thankfully), but if Grog handled some warm, glowing rocks to heat his cave for the night, well that could have some interesting side effects for the future Grog Jr. And the supernova idea is spot on too, those things can shoot a defined laser of energy that could focus over Earth and cause some serious damage and/or advancements genetic speaking.
 
i believe terry robb and ken nordvedt both say that i1 is from northern germany
 

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