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Thread: The Paleolithic Remnants: a map

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    6 out of 7 members found this post helpful.

    The Paleolithic Remnants: a map



    One question that remains unanswered but that I'd like to explore goes like this: Where did the hunter-gatherers from Paleolithic Europe hold out against the Neolithic migrations? We already have a good idea of who the remnant patrilineal descendants of those hunter-gatherers are: Haplogroup I people. At least, that's the only one we're sure of. Other intriguing possibilities include F* and A1a, and probably even more haplogroups can be pinpointed as Mesolithic, but for the moment, we'll operate under the assumption that Haplogroup I is the lone Y-DNA haplogroup representative of the Paleolithic Europeans. Some Haplogroup I subclades apparently expanded with the Neolithic arrivals. The most obvious to do so was I2a1a. But not all did, and some bottlenecked later or possibly remained bottlenecked for a long period of time before expanding later. So taking 6000 years ago as a starting point, around the time I2a1a began to expand, I took Nordtvedt's tree, raw data, and some speculation about different clades across the Internet to come up with this rough map of where the living Haplogroup I subclades that also existed 6000 years ago have their centers of diversity or suspected beginning points:



    Yes, this map is rough, and is probably not exhaustive. Surely, I don't have all the modern centers of diversity correct, centers of diversity nowadays are not the same as the centers of diversity were 6000 years ago, and we are likely to find more ancient subclades not currently represented in this map. But hopefully it will help spur discussion about who and where the Paleolithic remnants were once the Neolithic arrived, without the bias of modern haplogroup frequencies.
    Last edited by sparkey; 09-05-12 at 19:31. Reason: Update

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    Here are some initial thoughts from me:

    • The Rhine, the Elba, and the Atlantic Fringe seem uniquely rich in Paleolithic remnants.
    • Southeast Europe is interestingly barren, indicating displacement of lineages from the area over time (although there could be bias here due to a lack of testing). Its main modern subclade (I2a1b1a) is an outlier that apparently expanded upon it much later.
    • The far north and the southern islands, although rich in Haplogroup I nowadays, are barren as well, indicating that lineages expanded on those places, but weren't there to begin with.

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    One of the immediate difficulties of this (otherwise plausible) map for the period 4000 BCE concerns I2a1b1a-Din (which only emerges in its allocated position in Scythian times.) If the recent grapevine from Verenic about a possible I2a (37+) individual in a Late Trypilian grave (we don't know exactly where: on the Dnister?) is substantiated then it is possible that this is indeed where Din arose when it did. But in 4000 BCE this individual would have been a I2a1* . And the problem is that we simply don't know whether the population of THIS particular kind of !2a1* stayed put, or outmigrated (westward? Along with IE colleagues), to be replaced subsequently by another I2a1* type in migrating from somewhere else (for instance from the area of Yastorf (or anywhere really) and eventually becoming Din... Yet another instance of where aDNA is so needed... The same problem exists for many other late developers from I2a1* of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    One of the immediate difficulties of this (otherwise plausible) map for the period 4000 BCE concerns I2a1b1a-Din (which only emerges in its allocated position in Scythian times.) If the recent grapevine from Verenic about a possible I2a (37+) individual in a Late Trypilian grave (we don't know exactly where: on the Dnister?) is substantiated then it is possible that this is indeed where Din arose when it did. But in 4000 BCE this individual would have been a I2a1* . And the problem is that we simply don't know whether the population of THIS particular kind of !2a1* stayed put, or outmigrated (westward? Along with IE colleagues), to be replaced subsequently by another I2a1* type in migrating from somewhere else (for instance from the area of Yastorf (or anywhere really) and eventually becoming Din... Yet another instance of where aDNA is so needed... The same problem exists for many other late developers from I2a1* of course.
    I agree with this in general... actually, I2a1b1a and I2a1b1* are basically the most closely related subclades on the map, so for them in particular, it's best to assume that at least one of their centers of diversity shifted dramatically in the time that followed.

    I do think you have something wrong, though: modern I2a1b1a was probably I2a1b1* or at most I2a1b* in 4000BCE, not I2a1*.

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    I'm still learning (:=)). Re your last point: is this because M-423= I2a1b* in the Nordtvedt map?
    Last edited by razor; 18-10-11 at 21:55. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    I'm still learning (:=)). Re your last point: is this because M-423= I2a1b* in the Nordtvedt map?
    Well look at the Nordtvedt tree in particular. The TMRCA for I2a1b1 as a whole (both Dinaric and Disles) is ~6000 years, and for I2a1b it is ~13,000 years. So the SNP that defines I2a1b1 (L621) formed probably somewhere between 13,000 and 6,000 years ago. That means that the cluster that would become I2a1b1a probably already had L621 by then.

    If you're still learning you pick up quick; I think you're easily one of the best contributors here already.

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    I know the map is rough , but sardinia, pyrenenes and south western alps had the same HG - I2a1a* , basically a Med triangle

    What is Rassette marker - a Norman HG and
    what represents I2b, the danish Cimbri who still reside in the Italian alps

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    Great thread/map, Sparkey (as usual I should almost say by now )!

    What was really surprising is the absence of I in both southern and northern Europe. In regard for southern Europe, I wonder if Maciamo is right and south-southwestern Europe (southern Iberia, Italy) was indeed E1b since the Mesolithic...

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    Thanks. I wasn't sure about L621 because of the question mark.

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    nice map to link, I do not know the accuracy though

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...ca_5,000BC.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    what represents I2b, the danish Cimbri who still reside in the Italian alps
    Zanipolo, that statement is tripefold wrong:

    - there were no Cimbri in 4000 BC (they appeared on the stage of the world only in the 2nd century BC)

    - the Cimbri were virtually eradicated by the Roman military campaign against them.

    - the Zimbern are totally unrelated with the Cimbri, and this should be clear from the name:
    the tribal name 'Cimb(h)ri' is Pre-(Proto-)Germanic and would have been shifted to something akin to 'Ximbri' and later 'Himbri' in Proto-Germanic. In fact a cogante of 'Cimbri' exists still today in the region of Himmerland. In turn, German initial "z-" (pronounced 'ts') is a cognate with 't' in other Germanic languages (compare English 'timber').

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    I know the map is rough , but sardinia, pyrenenes and south western alps had the same HG - I2a1a* , basically a Med triangle
    So far the center of diversity of the three closely related branches of I2a1a that expanded seems to be in Iberia, at least from what I have read. If there's new evidence I'd be interested. We clearly see an expansion on Sardinia, but that probably happened after I2a1a stopped being a hunter-gatherer haplogroup.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    What is Rassette marjer - a Norman HG and
    Rassette is a single modern family in northern France so far. They represent one of these remnant populations that never saw much of a later expansion. Who knows if they moved with the Normans or if they have been in that spot since the Stone Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    what represents I2b, the danish Cimbri who still reside in the Italian alps
    That's I2b-ADR, also quite rare. I don't have many clues about them, either, other than that they're more closely related to I2c than to I2a, and they seem to be geographically south of I2c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Zanipolo, that statement is tripefold wrong:

    - there were no Cimbri in 4000 BC (they appeared on the stage of the world only in the 2nd century BC)

    - the Cimbri were virtually eradicated by the Roman military campaign against them.

    - the Zimbern are totally unrelated with the Cimbri, and this should be clear from the name:
    the tribal name 'Cimb(h)ri' is Pre-(Proto-)Germanic and would have been shifted to something akin to 'Ximbri' and later 'Himbri' in Proto-Germanic. In fact a cogante of 'Cimbri' exists still today in the region of Himmerland. In turn, German initial "z-" (pronounced 'ts') is a cognate with 't' in other Germanic languages (compare English 'timber').
    How can a question be wrong ?? ................I did leave out the question mark which is my fault

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    How can a question be wrong ?? ................I did leave out the question mark which is my fault
    Sorry, that's my fault now. I really thought that was a statement, not a question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    nice map to link, I do not know the accuracy though

    http://www.goggo.com/terry/Haplogrou...ca_5,000BC.jpg
    Just a little outdated. [Edit: just noticed the date of June 2011, wow this field of study moves fast for me to call that oudated!] I2a (new I2a1) was certainly more widespread. I2b (new I2a2) is about right, but probably also had a wider spread. I2* (new I2c and I2b) was probably in Central Europe rather than Eastern Europe. I'm not sure that E is in the right spot. But the overall estimate is still as good a rough best-guess as any.

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    Good job sparkey.

    I2a's, specially I2a1a*(Pyrenees marker) and the other two listed in Iberia, are surely included in the Southwestern cluster from the latest Dodecad calculator. Difficult to say something about the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, that's my fault now. I really thought that was a statement, not a question.
    no problem - my issue initially

    Talking on cimbri in Italy, there is a new project commenced
    http://www.gaia.es/multilinguae/pdf/Cimbri.PDF
    which bascially says cimbri where bavarian........but thats for another thread

    also, the 7 towns of cimbri still exist in the veneto today

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Good job sparkey.

    I2a's, specially I2a1a*(Pyrenees marker) and the other two listed in Iberia, are surely included in the Southwestern cluster from the latest Dodecad calculator. Difficult to say something about the rest.
    Agreed; I might add that I1 is probably a part of Northwestern (although Northwestern clearly extends farther than I1 does, into more Celtic populations).

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    Yes sparkey, that's very likely, and turns to the problem of the difficulty to know how huge is autosomally speaking I1 in, let's say Scandinavia, being so difficult to separate properly from R1b. We can asume Scandinavians have a lot of I1 autosomes, while the British a lot of R1b, but, speacially in the first case...¿wich percent aprox? ¿40,50,60%? Who knows.

    In Iberia seems there is no such problem, quite clear that the Southwestern indicates very strong I2a composition, being the rest almost entirely R1b (Northwestern). Don't know if the Southwestern could include a little of R1b, but in my opinion seems to be a very pure I2a sharp, although would be better too see it in a more accurate K=12 style. I'm sure Dienekes' would do a great job if finally improves this analysis.

    Again, very ilustrative map.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Great thread/map, Sparkey (as usual I should almost say by now )!

    What was really surprising is the absence of I in both southern and northern Europe. In regard for southern Europe, I wonder if Maciamo is right and south-southwestern Europe (southern Iberia, Italy) was indeed E1b since the Mesolithic...
    A team of archeologist is trying to extract mesolithic DNA from Corsica. Hope it will give us the answer.

    The exceptional discovery of burials about 9,000 years old - probably containing the oldest human remains ever found in Corsica (France) - will allow a better understanding of the history of early settlement of the island and of the Mediterranean.
    On a hill near the village of Sollacaro, Southern Corsica, nestled under a huge ball-shaped block of eroded granite which served as a shelter for prehistoric peoples, the location has been excavated by a team of archaeologists from several French universities, assisted by a Danish colleague.
    "It is evidence of human presence on the island during the Mesolithic period (from 10,000 to 5000 BCE)," said Joseph Cesari, regional curator of archaeological and historic monuments, in presenting the discovery this week. Having uncovered the bones of four or five adults, a teenager, and a baby spread over an area of a few square meters on the site of Campo Stefano during the past several months, efforts in recent weeks have revealed the almost complete skeleton of another adult.
    Patrice Courtaud - palaeontologist and researcher at CNRS and a specialist in Bordeaux Mesolithic burial practices, said, "...there are very few multiple burials, particularly in Corsica", adding that, "We still know little about the people of the Mesolithic, a period marking the beginning of agricultural settlement". If researchers can extract DNA from bones, this will "help to further our knowledge of genetics, nutrition and lifestyle in general," says Courtaud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    A team of archeologist is trying to extract mesolithic DNA from Corsica. Hope it will give us the answer.
    Great find, that's perfect if they can get some Y-DNA out of it. I don't have a good prediction for what they would have carried in terms of Y-DNA.

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    Today's update:

    • Switched position of I2c-C and I2c-A as I2c-C has more diversity to the north
    • Moved I2a1*-Tibor to its correct location (I was totally off before)... but still a data deficient clade
    • Moved I2a1b2-A/B to the Continent based on Yorkie's observations about it... but I still want more Continental samples of it to be sure that this change is correct

    This has made the Rhine look even more diverse among Paleolithic remnants, and makes I2a1b1a look even more like an outlier among I2a1 subclades.

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    There is one hypothesis that no one is ever willing to consider:
    It is that the Cro-magnon got instinct like the Neanderthal before them. Just because they were modern humans doesn't mean that they passed their genes on to us.

    Haplogroup I seems to have come to Europe around the Ice Age maximum, no?

    So, I wouldn't be surprised if the hunter gatherers of the pre-Ice Age got wiped out by the new comers after the ice age.

    Just by looking at the % of R1b in Western Europe today or the % of Bantu in Africa today, shows how the last wave of immigration can really wipe out most of the previous waves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    There is one hypothesis that no one is ever willing to consider:
    It is that the Cro-magnon got instinct like the Neanderthal before them. Just because they were modern humans doesn't mean that they passed their genes on to us.

    Haplogroup I seems to have come to Europe around the Ice Age maximum, no?

    So, I wouldn't be surprised if the hunter gatherers of the pre-Ice Age got wiped out by the new comers after the ice age.

    Just by looking at the % of R1b in Western Europe today or the % of Bantu in Africa today, shows how the last wave of immigration can really wipe out most of the previous waves.
    I'm willing to consider the possibility. I suspect that there were different groups of Paleolithic Europeans who had different Y-DNA haplogroups, with Haplogroup I being the only one known to have survived to today.

    Haplogroup I has its center of diversity in Europe, so it probably arose there, and it has an age of 22,000 YBP or so, meaning that it probably arrived there before then (LGM was more like 18,000 YBP). Haplogroup IJ is probably old enough (~38,000 YBP IIRC) to suppose that it was present among the oldest Cro-Magnons, and Haplogroup I is probably a descendant of such an IJ line.

    It's difficult for me to imagine how a post-LGM Haplogroup I would work... I suppose it would be multiple migrations (I1*, different types of I2a1*, I2a2*, and pre-I2b/I2c) all into Europe with subsequent extinction in Asia. Or, the STR dating is too old... but I've never heard that criticism of Nordtvedt, only that his estimates are too young. All of this seems simply less clean than assuming that Haplogroup I is probably Cro-Magnon.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I am pretty convinced that he is wrong. I2a1a is more diverse in Iberia than in Sardinia, suggesting an expansion the other direction. I2a1b1a has a North-to-South cline, not a West-to-East one like he suggests. And the I2a1c1 direction he suggests is odd... it probably has a link to the Rhine, not so much to Southern France. More likely, these subclades were spread more widely across Europe in 5000BC. See my Paleolithic Remnants map for my idea of what a picture of I subclades prior to their expansions (starting ~4000BC) would look like.
    so what is the new code for I2b and how did it only be in denmark and northeast italy

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