Politics Do you think France & Germany can solve the Eurozone crisis?

[Antigone]

I am a little bit sick of reading the "blame Germany" excuse over and over again. Keep in mind that Merkel struggles to make sure the street doesn't get its way. If it were up to the German people (whom she is supposed to represent, by the way...), Greeks would not get a single cent from the EU again and would have to pay their due up to the last dime, even if it would take 1000 years and would beat the country back into the Middle Ages.

Yes indeed, as I've said on another thread, I'm also sick of the blame game, which includes the "holier than thou" attitude of the Germans in this. Germany allowed Greece into the EU in full knowledge of it's loans etc and Germany has profited well and still continues to profit from Greece.

Off the top of my head, the Athens International airport is a German construction, the Rio Antirrio bridge spanning the Gulf of Corinth is a French construction, the Athens Metro is of both German and French contstruction plus German and French submarines, ships and jets etc supplied to the defense forces. Just to name a few and there is more but, please, enough of the hypocracy. A small amount of honesty from both sides in this mess would be so refreshing.

 

[edao]

I think people are misled by thinking that devaluation of a currency is some kind of magic bullet. It would lead to lower living standards and while it might help an export led economy it's not going to help imports. The default of debt would be a financial bomb that would cripple the economy for years to come, who is going to invest in a isolated crippled country like Greece?

Everyone wants to blame the Euro, but its like being fat and blaming your trousers for being too small. Pretending that if you could change your trousers (the Euro) you could allow yourself to get fatter and not have to deal with the austerity of a diet to get you into better shape. People are pointing at the trousers blaming them for the problem when in fact it's the overeating which has caused the problem. There is no magic bullet here and those you bang on about dropping Greece from the Euro are offering no solutions, the only way out of this is going to be hard reforms.

Across Europe everyone is blaming their governments, but no one wants to accept that in truth it's us the people who are responsible. The Germans have a remarkable economy, probably the best in the world, even in a time of crisis they can afford to offer the people tax cuts. The German politicians and political system didn't appear by magic they are a product of their society and culture. Their kids have a bright future ahead because of what their people have done to get themselves ahead, the rest of Europe need to stop blaming governments and realise that everyone has a part to play, because the only thing going to lift Europe from the crisis is private sector growth. That growth is only going to come from dynamic individuals around Europe standing up and being counted by starting their own businesses, creating their own job paying into the tax system and growing to create more jobs. This can only come from the people, governments today are powerless without money.

Italians enabled Berlusconi to turn Italy into a joke, it took the international investment community to force him out, if I was Italian I wouldn't be angry with the politicians but the society that allowed him to prosper.

"Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country." Kennedy

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

Sure! But I think it's a little late for that kind of advice. What can a Greek citizen do right now instead of protesting? In their place I'm not sure whether I would be in the mood or have the guts to create a business right now. Greeks are in some state of checkmate position, paralized, only able to watch helplessly the actions of their government.
Even if it sounds weird, but what I would recommend for the PIIGS countries as well as some others is to leave the Euro and European Union, uncouple their new currencies from Euro and Dollar and perhaps find a new coalition, after the Argentinian role model!

I wrote a few times that there is no ideal form of government, as it always has to match the mentality and culture of a certain country. Of course the same applies to economic systems! You can't impose an economic system on a country that obviously has different needs and laws of economy.

 

[edao]

You only have to look at the GDP per capita figures to see that what happened to Argentina would be catastrophic to Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

If they want to be inline with countries like Lebanon, Botswana, Gabon, that's what's waiting for them by leaving the Euro.

Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.

Biggest problem we all face is a lack of growth, in truth if there is magic bullet to this it's growth. As everyone can see we are forced into austerity across the board through necessity but no one has any idea how we create support for the private sector, most governments seem to just be in hope that human endeavour will win through in the end before financial collapse does.

The occupy movement is completely pointless they have no message they know something is wrong with the current system but don't understand it enough to offer a solution. So all they do is protest shouting fix the problem! The politicians don't listen because they know these people haven't got a clue what they are talking about, for the protests to be relevant they need a clear message or proposal. We want the Tobin Tax enforced now and just hammer home that message across the world, governments would soon take action just sitting about in tents moaning about banks just shows them to be idiots who are unemployed for a reason, go read a news paper!

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.

Certainly you know more about economics than I do (are you studying or employed in that field btw?).
Of course I hope that you are right with your assumptions. Moreover I hope that Greece will be able to keep that gdp ration/growth!

 

[julia90]

I think no one has the magic wand to resolve this situation.. certainly the axe France-Germany have failed to save Greece, economists think that with few europen funds given at the eraly signal of greek crisis could have saved greeks.. now the situation there is dramatic.. and i think we should expect soon a migration wave of greeks in other european countries.. if they don't migrate elsewhere like usa or australia.

greeks have their responsibilities, but germany and france could have saved the situation

....solidarity with Greek people...

 

[julia90]

Italians enabled Berlusconi to turn Italy into a joke, it took the international investment community to force him out, if I was Italian I wouldn't be angry with the politicians but the society that allowed him to prosper.

It's the contrary.. it's the italian "Magistratura", that abused his power, and created a clima of persecution.. .
We should thank Magistratura, that stopped the government reforms, attacking continously a person, and don't making him work for the government.. you don't have the idea of how many billions the italian state spended for the magistratura attacks on berlusconi...this were billions throwed off for no use let alone that of unjustified personal persecution.

And also Magistratura is lined up in the part of the italian left, working in favour of leftists parties.. a so undemocratic exercise of power..

and berlusconi wasn't a Tirant.. he was legitemately voted by the majority .

You are Scottish.. i thoght Scottish people were Liberals and democratic... not for the oligarchy of Magistratura, bureocracy, etc etc..


I can explain you better the clima that was created in italy:
the leftists always told to journals berlusconi was uncapable, and that he had to resign himselves, because with him italy would collapse..

than an example: if a person goes out and start tso say that his wife is a ***** continuosly to everybody (and that thing is completely false), than everybody at the end would start to think his wife is a ***** even if at the beginning they didn't think so...
The same situation is in italy, leftists journals continued to tell negative things about our governement, instead of promoting it, because it was runned by berlusconi.., the truth is that our financial situation isn't bad than that of most euro countries including france... the difference is that french politicians aren't selfdestruptive...
the market plungers start to belive italian situation is very bad because all of the leftists journals selfdestruption.. so they dond't confide in italy

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

Julia, the Italian left was always after Berlusconi, but he was not guilty enough, or maybe too clever to get caught. The guy owns half of the country and behaved like Mel Brooks' Louis XVI in History of the World (It's good to be the king...). He surely was a European (as well as a national) embarassment, but he could barely have been suspected of getting money off the taxpayer to line his own pockets, like, well, everywhere else.
Everyone who knows a little about politics knows that the italian left is the worst in Europe, Prodi is a far worse leader than Berlusconi ever was. The problem with Berlusconi was that he did not bow to the bankers nor Merkozy (he's richer than them...), and he had to go to let somebody more flexible to take the calls from Berl.., sorry, Brussels.
On your previous remark, concerning how Greece could have been salvaged, I have doubts. First because the bankers want their money back, and the bailouts were only given out with certain conditions (that we might discover in a few years). Secondly, 2012 is a very important year in Europe, elections are taking place in France, and Sarkozy does not want to upset the French any further, his campaign is at stake. Just as in 40, nobody wanted a war over the Sudetenland, no one will commit political suicide over Greece. Merkel's party already has a very bad record in local elections for the last 18 months, getting the Germans to make more efforts to keep Greece afloat would trigger a revolution. Now, as a solidarity gesture, you're welcome to send half your wages check to Athens, but I surely won't join you.

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

You only have to look at the GDP per capita figures to see that what happened to Argentina would be catastrophic to Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita

If they want to be inline with countries like Lebanon, Botswana, Gabon, that's what's waiting for them by leaving the Euro.

Greece need to stick to the austerity measures and implement the agreement of 50% write down of their debt and then about 2015 after growth has returned to the Eurozone have a further hair-cut afforded by the other EU countries and banks who will then be in a position to afford it, finally putting Greece in a debt to gdp ration in line with growth.

Any exit from the Euro would be more painful and would leave them in stagnation for a decade. The IMF would be their only support and for that money they would only be faced with harsher terms, Greeks would probably be looking to 2020 before a return to normality.

Biggest problem we all face is a lack of growth, in truth if there is magic bullet to this it's growth. As everyone can see we are forced into austerity across the board through necessity but no one has any idea how we create support for the private sector, most governments seem to just be in hope that human endeavour will win through in the end before financial collapse does.

The occupy movement is completely pointless they have no message they know something is wrong with the current system but don't understand it enough to offer a solution. So all they do is protest shouting fix the problem! The politicians don't listen because they know these people haven't got a clue what they are talking about, for the protests to be relevant they need a clear message or proposal. We want the Tobin Tax enforced now and just hammer home that message across the world, governments would soon take action just sitting about in tents moaning about banks just shows them to be idiots who are unemployed for a reason, go read a news paper!

There are solutions for Greece. First of all, it is a member of the Union, even though that doesn't help right now. On top of that, as a NATO member and having a strategic position on the continent, Greece can pull strings to get more clout from America.
My most important remark would be that if Greece would get out of the EU, it could save Spain and a relapse in Ireland, as well as Portugal. The whole of the EU would be relieved and would probably try to limitate the damage. A situation like in Argentina in 2001 is unlikely, even though the living standards would dramatically drop. Now the clever bit: if Greece can get some distance from the EU, it could change existing laws or create new ones to become a fiscal paradise and dump taxes that makes tourism not so attractive. I am thinking about alcool and tobacco, that would attract a substantial amount of tourist all year long into existing infrastructures. Dumping fuel taxes might bring some airlines to consider having a permanent base in Greece to benefit from low taxes on kerosene. There are hundreds of micro-solutions that would help Greece getting back on her feet, but the very tight EU legislation makes it impossible to assess.
As a preventive measure, I think the EU should consider keeping a Eurozone with strong economies in charge and the other, weaker and smaller economies as satellites. Having several strong countries leading a cooperational league might be not fair from an equity point of view but it is surely better than sitting at a roulette table with the bank gone bust...

 

[Antigone]

I think no one has the magic wand to resolve this situation.. certainly the axe France-Germany have failed to save Greece, economists think that with few europen funds given at the eraly signal of greek crisis could have saved greeks.. now the situation there is dramatic.. and i think we should expect soon a migration wave of greeks in other european countries.. if they don't migrate elsewhere like usa or australia.

greeks have their responsibilities, but germany and france could have saved the situation

....solidarity with Greek people...

The migration wave of those leaving Greece began sometime ago, particularly amongst the university graduates who can't find positions. Australia have been advertising that they will take over 100,000 skilled workers so many are opting for there and Scandanavia is another place people are heading for. Haven't heard of any looking at the USA though, as the US is not in that strong a position themselves at the moment. I understand people's need to leave if they are to find work but if the Greek economy is to grow it also needs it's bright and energetic youth, so it is a very difficult situation.

Greece could also have done something a long time ago to save themselves and didn't. And to be fair this wasn't the fault of Papandraeu, it was the previous government who hid the books and went to great lengths to cover the state of the economy from both the EU and the Greek people. Plus whilst Greece, Italy et al are weak, Germany and France are stronger so they were never going to try too hard to save the situation.

This is possibly why the EU won't not work, in the long run everyone will look after themselves first. This is not a critisism by the way, it is just human nature and honestly, if I were German right now I wouldn't be too worried about little old Greece either.

But all the best to Italy Julia, I was saddened to hear that you will be joining us as outcastes and hope you can do a better job of turning things around than we have so far. Solidarity!

 

[Sile]

Julia, the Italian left was always after Berlusconi, but he was not guilty enough, or maybe too clever to get caught. The guy owns half of the country and behaved like Mel Brooks' Louis XVI in History of the World (It's good to be the king...). He surely was a European (as well as a national) embarassment, but he could barely have been suspected of getting money off the taxpayer to line his own pockets, like, well, everywhere else.
Everyone who knows a little about politics knows that the italian left is the worst in Europe, Prodi is a far worse leader than Berlusconi ever was. The problem with Berlusconi was that he did not bow to the bankers nor Merkozy (he's richer than them...), and he had to go to let somebody more flexible to take the calls from Berl.., sorry, Brussels.
On your previous remark, concerning how Greece could have been salvaged, I have doubts. First because the bankers want their money back, and the bailouts were only given out with certain conditions (that we might discover in a few years). Secondly, 2012 is a very important year in Europe, elections are taking place in France, and Sarkozy does not want to upset the French any further, his campaign is at stake. Just as in 40, nobody wanted a war over the Sudetenland, no one will commit political suicide over Greece. Merkel's party already has a very bad record in local elections for the last 18 months, getting the Germans to make more efforts to keep Greece afloat would trigger a revolution. Now, as a solidarity gesture, you're welcome to send half your wages check to Athens, but I surely won't join you.

Berlusconni brought this on himself, in 2008 he won majority in parliment ( first time for any Italian governmenT ) and with his coalition partner the legaNord could have made changes. He promised a LegaNord initiative, Fiscal Federalism and delayed and delayed its introduction ( just this policy would have saved italy). He was told by LegaNord to Sell Alitalia and Rai tv and yet he saved them with great expensive - these companies are a dud a waste of monies especially since Italy already has 2 other airlines that fly as far as Dubai.
The italian left is supported by the unions and will not make any further austerity packages.

As I said , if Italy is to save itself it must depart from euro currency - The USA only survived backruptcy ( if you call this survival) because they can print there own money, imagine if they where linked with other nations in a shared currency, the USA would be sold as a second China

 

[Sile]

It's the contrary.. it's the italian "Magistratura", that abused his power, and created a clima of persecution.. .
We should thank Magistratura, that stopped the government reforms, attacking continously a person, and don't making him work for the government.. you don't have the idea of how many billions the italian state spended for the magistratura attacks on berlusconi...this were billions throwed off for no use let alone that of unjustified personal persecution.

And also Magistratura is lined up in the part of the italian left, working in favour of leftists parties.. a so undemocratic exercise of power..

and berlusconi wasn't a Tirant.. he was legitemately voted by the majority .

You are Scottish.. i thoght Scottish people were Liberals and democratic... not for the oligarchy of Magistratura, bureocracy, etc etc..


I can explain you better the clima that was created in italy:
the leftists always told to journals berlusconi was uncapable, and that he had to resign himselves, because with him italy would collapse..

than an example: if a person goes out and start tso say that his wife is a ***** continuosly to everybody (and that thing is completely false), than everybody at the end would start to think his wife is a ***** even if at the beginning they didn't think so...
The same situation is in italy, leftists journals continued to tell negative things about our governement, instead of promoting it, because it was runned by berlusconi.., the truth is that our financial situation isn't bad than that of most euro countries including france... the difference is that french politicians aren't selfdestruptive...
the market plungers start to belive italian situation is very bad because all of the leftists journals selfdestruption.. so they dond't confide in italy

Its a pity that 92% of this Magistrata come from campania , there is something wrong in this field of justice in Italy

 

[Yetos]

a few funny images about Eurozone crisis

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

Van Rompuy meets Benedict XVI.
The Pope; How about you, doesn't it bother you, that feeling to be useless?
Hermann; You know, my holiness (pun lost in translation), in my case, it's not just a feeling...

 

[julia90]

Its a pity that 92% of this Magistrata come from campania , there is something wrong in this field of justice in Italy

indeed the political Magistratura Boss, Di Pietro is from nearby Molise, a caricature-man

 

[julia90]

Everyone who knows a little about politics knows that the italian left is the worst in Europe, Prodi is a far worse leader than Berlusconi ever was.

that's why he's still more capable man in italian politics, the better for now we had...

 

[Endri]

I think that Greeks can get out of the crisis is they work more and complain less. Complaining in this moment will only make their economy worse

 

[zanipolo]

I think that Greeks can get out of the crisis is they work more and complain less. Complaining in this moment will only make their economy worse

does not compute...there about 11 Million greeks, it we remove the aged, injured, children, public workers and non citizens, then the taxable work force is 3 Million. how do you expect these Greeks to repay anything when they have barely any industry .

 

[Yetos]

I think that Greeks can get out of the crisis is they work more and complain less. Complaining in this moment will only make their economy worse

By your flag I see that you are Albanian,

Let me remind that in Greece work and Live 1 500 000 more than Albanians,
the ones that send them away from they country to a foreign country must not complain if these people turn back and Albania has 50% unemployment,

the ones who make desert their land and sold it to JPMORGAN and kick their people to another country
I think must be care on what they say,

Just consider that about of 14%- 20% of Albanian ballance is by Albanian people who work in Greece and send money to Albania..

cause the money of silver goes all to a doctor and his daughter, while the other guy is seeking for alcohol,

what remains goes to singurimi and secret propaganda agents

Except if by your words you wanted to tell us that Albanians are lazy non working and you send them away to Greece to feed them, Do you mean that?

 

[Yetos]

does not compute...there about 11 Million greeks, it we remove the aged, injured, children, public workers and non citizens, then the taxable work force is 3 Million. how do you expect these Greeks to repay anything when they have barely any industry .

according Greek buraeu is about <4 million the places, and became about <3 million last 2 years and after market extra tax,
estimation talks about 2 600 000 to 2 800 000 million next year

consider the about 1 million illegal immigrants that work and not pay for insurance

in summer the work places reach 5 000 000 places due to turism
but how can someone live when works for 3-6 months

there are many people even childs who work in family business, especially in summer
the problem is not only the state workers, the problem is elsewhere, the state workers is just an extra 2-6% of another European country,
the problem is that my products are sold with 23% tax while people from Albania Bulgaria Fyrom bring goods bought by 10% tax and can sell them cheaper,
the problem is that the best Greek olive oil, which is maybe the best in the world, can not be sold,
why?
cause due to policies Germany imports Huge quantities from a non EU country like N africa
and can sell cheaper in Greece, why cause in N africa they don't have Euro

that was the paradox after 2003
Greece a traditional olive country and orange and peaches and strawberry import what? olive oil and peaches !!!!
as you understand the paradox is a bigger truth,
it is not strange that after 1990 many neighbor countries got plus developement and greece got minus
all the neighbors are not in EUrozone, so they are flexible as economies

On the other hand it is the corruption of politician and Technocrats since the Bank scandal are not little starting from koskotas times to saliarelis to kokkalis reaching layrentiadis etc
do you know many scandals were done by Techocrats in Greece? many

I don't know if Sarkozy was right when he told that Greece should enter Eurozone,
But I know that there was a big Hypocricy cause both France and Germany knew about the depth of Greece before 2002 and also the loans and the most worse is the case of Germany and siemens with the C4I project for Olympic games which cost 4 times more !!!!!
who bought it? ask which Greek politician had German wife.