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Thread: Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)

  1. #26
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    Yes I am mad when people like you (who don't even read), in the name of the truth, repeat the same words, as the parrot, whithot trying to give any contra argument.
    Stop posting outdated evidence then I'll take you seriously.


    If you say it, I'm gonna leave it as you say ;)



    Out dated evidence.


    f you have contra arguments...
    - Tell me when albanians come into Balkans (don't tell me about any internal movement, field-mountain, mountain-field... addiction to invasions of others, remember here: Except Albanians, none of peoples of the Balkans was not native, they were all conquering...
    Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350-1700 (Edition reprint)
    Dorothy Margaret Vaughan
    AMS Press, 1976
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._1683867_n.jpg

    Or this one: Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4863425_n.jpg

    Or this:
    If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
    In the whole of Macedonia the Albanian language is spoken and the villages of Janina and Scutari are alone peopled by Albanians.
    p.587
    Public opinion, Volume 34
    The Public Opinion Co.,
    Princeton University

    Or:
    Alber Pike:
    ...in fact, but autochtons.
    Oudated evidence, albanians are everywhere were they are now because they were Muslim in the Ottoman empire, and had greater freedom of movement.
    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg), from where ? (and why there are no any serious institution in the World, that confirm that migration)... ?
    - Tell me how albanians called them self in middle ages, and what is the history of that name in this region ?


    What do you mean no serious institution? its recorded when the first mention of albanians came to be by the Italians. Albanians called themselves what they call themselves now, shiptar. Its a big deviation to think that the Gheg albanians called themselves that and latter they used the term Shiptar.

    - Tell me why they now are still called Albanian, and what is the history of this name in this region ?
    you don't call yourselves albanian, you call ouselves shiptar, its a very big difference.

    - Tell me why albanians, when after all thraco-illyrian (from Illyria, Macedonia & Epir region) tribes, retread in the mounains around the Illyrian tribe Albanoi, decided to call themself shqiptar (what is the meaning of this name) ?
    These two don't make sence. Illyrians didn't retreat into the mountains and call themselves shiptar, thats albanian nationalistic history you are talking. Shiptars arrived in albanian in the middle ages.

    - Tell me why albanians lived in the mountains and latter the slavs in the fields ?
    - Tell me who are the native, those who live in the mountains, or those who live in the fields ?
    Shiptars didn't just live in mountains, so this doesn't matter. The slavs also live in mountainous regions yet you say they are invaders? double standards of logic?

    - Tell me why they have pelasgian, illyrian, thracian, etruscan, hittite... words in their lexicon?
    Illyrian and thracian words came form the "slavs". The others I can't comment on for the lack of knowledge.

    - Tell me why they have greek and latin atrocities in their langauge ?
    - Tell me how can they borrow so much Latin and a few Greek words, if they whould not live near them (greeks) or under them (latins), when they (latins) invaded Illyrian peninsula ?
    Tosk dialect. Vlach influence. Direct greek influene in teh south and latin influence across the adriatic.
    - Tell me why some albanian roots and other small semantic units are in the greek and latin language ?
    - Tell me from where are derived these albanian pure words (which are not greek, not latin, not slavic... but a particular language in their own) ?
    From where ever region shiptars migrated from, their native language.
    - Tell me why all international serious scientists (linguists), whith the method of comparison of the language, and etymology ... have reached the conclusion that Albanian is one of the oldest languages ​​of the continent (are they all nationalist) ?
    except for they havn't, the Illyrian theory of albanians is similar to the dorian greek invasion of the penisula, its outdated and isn't taken seriously anymore, except for albanians.
    - Tell me why albanians language has so much sub-dialects (Dr. Robert Elsie was registred 137 of them, but there are much more); Does that mean that these people have lived in a wider region (about ancient greeks, or the elite of the region, they were barbarians= Pelasgians, or Thraco-Illyrian tribes... Epirotes, Macedonians...), but of the same culture (the same language) ?
    No it doesn't mean anything except there are many dialects.



    Some albanian were able better to survive when they change their religion in Islam, because then the differences beetwen south slavic invaders and new greeks, became double (national & religious). Other orthodox albanians become the greaters greeks and slavs... you can see it today from their DNA ;)
    Also I posted you the first constitution of the new Greek state in 1821
    This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
    This proves your nationalistic logic when you use terms as "greater greeks". Albanians need to start learning outside of theri nationalistic dogmas.



    ...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.
    because more than just greeks fought for the indepedence.


    You have a great fantasy, but why you post in a thread about the albanians, when you don't now nothing at all about these people.
    Albanians have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!).
    Albanians don't have a survivial history, you just think so because thats your nationalistic construction. I don't care about changing your mind, nationalism is a disease that corrupts the mind.




    Albanian intelectuals have another job to do... how to make money, because we still are poorest people of Europe ;)
    You call youself an intelectual yet you take evidence like the one below from the 1770's as fact.

    I think the most ironic thing about albanian historiography is they paint themselves as "natives' and slavs the invaders, when it's becomming more clear that the opposite is true. The people who live from croatia to the black sea (bulgarians) all speak a mutually recognizable language and genetics have proven them to be around for a long time. These "slavs" as most of europe calls them, are in a greater position to claim they decend from Thaco-Illyrian and the Thraco-Illyrian lanauge.

    Albanians would never accept this because it completly put their nationalistic historiography on its head, and politically, this whole push to claim Kosovo as albanian native land though Illyrianization would be negated.

    Maybe after tensions settle down Albanians can become more objective.





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    question from an outsider (not involved in Balkan conflicts): Elias, I gather from your post that you think Albanians are later immigrants into their areas? Where do you think they came from?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    a curious thing in favour of etruscan-pelasgian-people from albania connection is the etruscans hat, similar to the albanian hat, the shape is similar thought i don't know if the hat is also turkish. or it must be similar but not with the same origins




    that hat is pilos and is not only etruscan albanian etc we find it in myceneans also in statues in minor asia,

    is the hat we might say as pelasgian,
    its origin might be from Levant or minor asia,

    simply because we find that hat does not mean that all albanians,
    Besir is trying to say that Albanians were the center of Pelasgian culture,
    while Iapetoc had another way ,
    according which pelasgian were a culture of west Ugarit-levantine, non phoenician who migrate to aegean created cyclades minoan, and pelasgian in north (Kadmus story) and return to palaistine etc
    while the north part at troy wars left for etruria (1200-800 BC) (pelasgian argos) that was taken by aeolians when thyrrenians left
    an old branch from Theba invaded North mixed with Celtoids created Illyrians,

    searching the Albanian language by many we find common words remnants of Pelasgian,

    but true Albanians were the Thracian tribe albocense from Dacia who migrated in today albania pushed by Slavs, or Northen toyrkoi
    to the city of germidava,
    also a case of Cumans since Anju creator of Alba was cuman, and a possible mix of Thracian+italians +illyrians that happened at at Arbano (Germidava) as written in Maniakis Army who was an elite of troops in south Italy, and redraw at 1040,

    I find the Kadmeian case more logic, if compare the HG and the linguistic,
    than the case that center of all pelasgian was Albania and even they migrated to palaistine,
    (maybe Goliath was Albanian?)

    the difference is that from homer we realize that achilleus and odyseuus and Ajax-Locros were different tribes that spartan and myceneans,
    Odysseus might be Pelasgian, Achilleus might be Thracian, and ajax surely as Locri was Grekos

    that is the difference among Besir and Iapetoc,

    the source center of Pelasgians, and where they split and who were their remnants,
    in Fact Iapetoc if you read him claims that Hebrew have much of pelasgian by posting the work of Yehunda,

    the thing that Besir is claiming is that E-V13 in ALbania is founder effect who spread from there, and not a Arcado-cypriot as we all know, transfered by Illyros son of Cadmus
    the paradox is that if Pelasgian according Iapetoc gave the alphabet to Greeks at least 1000 BC why in albania we do not have written forms and written language at least until 1500?
    in fact that is the paradox in Balkans, thracians used sometimes the Greek alphabet like in erzerovo ring, Illyrians used Greek letters and later Messapic
    since center of pelasgians was Albania as claimed by some, that means that alphabet must be older there and spread from there !!!!

    Besir is using Herodotos to say about Pelasgians but does not say that first mention in History of Pelasgians is Smyrna area and minor asia, which means Pelasgians where minor asians who migrate west.
    also do not say that thoukidides say that recogns Thyrrenian as Pelasgian,

    in the gennetick Maciamo started at thread about if G might be Levantine,
    considering that in ancient etruscan tombs we find enough G which later might migrated North, as also the E-V13 that exist in Balkans, and maybe the J2
    we find enough in thesally as also in in Etruria, and some parts of Albania,
    that means that might have a common ancestor nation, but where was the center?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    that hat is pilos and is not only etruscan albanian etc we find it in myceneans also in statues in minor asia,

    is the hat we might say as pelasgian,
    its origin might be from Levant or minor asia,

    simply because we find that hat does not mean that all albanians,
    Besir is trying to say that Albanians were the center of Pelasgian culture,
    while Iapetoc had another way ,
    according which pelasgian were a culture of west Ugarit-levantine, non phoenician who migrate to aegean created cyclades minoan, and pelasgian in north (Kadmus story) and return to palaistine etc
    while the north part at troy wars left for etruria (1200-800 BC) (pelasgian argos) that was taken by aeolians when thyrrenians left
    an old branch from Theba invaded North mixed with Celtoids created Illyrians,

    searching the Albanian language by many we find common words remnants of Pelasgian,

    but true Albanians were the Thracian tribe albocense from Dacia who migrated in today albania pushed by Slavs, or Northen toyrkoi
    to the city of germidava,
    also a case of Cumans since Anju creator of Alba was cuman, and a possible mix of Thracian+italians +illyrians that happened at at Arbano (Germidava) as written in Maniakis Army who was an elite of troops in south Italy, and redraw at 1040,

    I find the Kadmeian case more logic, if compare the HG and the linguistic,
    than the case that center of all pelasgian was Albania and even they migrated to palaistine,
    (maybe Goliath was Albanian?)

    the difference is that from homer we realize that achilleus and odyseuus and Ajax-Locros were different tribes that spartan and myceneans,
    Odysseus might be Pelasgian, Achilleus might be Thracian, and ajax surely as Locri was Grekos

    that is the difference among Besir and Iapetoc,

    the source center of Pelasgians, and where they split and who were their remnants,
    in Fact Iapetoc if you read him claims that Hebrew have much of pelasgian by posting the work of Yehunda,

    the thing that Besir is claiming is that E-V13 in ALbania is founder effect who spread from there, and not a Arcado-cypriot as we all know, transfered by Illyros son of Cadmus
    the paradox is that if Pelasgian according Iapetoc gave the alphabet to Greeks at least 1000 BC why in albania we do not have written forms and written language at least until 1500?
    in fact that is the paradox in Balkans, thracians used sometimes the Greek alphabet like in erzerovo ring, Illyrians used Greek letters and later Messapic
    since center of pelasgians was Albania as claimed by some, that means that alphabet must be older there and spread from there !!!!

    Besir is using Herodotos to say about Pelasgians but does not say that first mention in History of Pelasgians is Smyrna area and minor asia, which means Pelasgians where minor asians who migrate west.
    also do not say that thoukidides say that recogns Thyrrenian as Pelasgian,

    in the gennetick Maciamo started at thread about if G might be Levantine,
    considering that in ancient etruscan tombs we find enough G which later might migrated North, as also the E-V13 that exist in Balkans, and maybe the J2
    we find enough in thesally as also in in Etruria, and some parts of Albania,
    that means that might have a common ancestor nation, but where was the center?
    very interesting
    I initially thought the albanians originated in dacia but have recently seen script saying they where molossians from the pindus mountains.
    Would these dacian albanians be solely tosks, while the ghegs be from northern greece?

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    Any -dava toponyms in Albanian territory? Dacia was full of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    very interesting
    I initially thought the albanians originated in dacia but have recently seen script saying they where molossians from the pindus mountains.
    Would these dacian albanians be solely tosks, while the ghegs be from northern greece?
    that is the origin of Albocense according Strabo amd their colony is Germi-dava,
    indeed Anju family and many big Albanian families are connected with Alba Lullia,
    that is when Albanians started to spread assimilating local illyrians and aromanis
    in the lands of albocense later migrated Kumans, famous families where Anju Hunjades etc
    there a was a pre-albanian substractum in Illyria, the Germidavians,
    later at maniakis time his army centered there,
    slowly, we have movements from Romania to Albania starting after 1200 when the 1rst wave Arbanites moved to Greece,
    under an invitation of a roman ruler,

    there is no way mollosians being Albanians,

    and I would like to hear your source,

    Albanians are a Dacian tribe who colonised Illyria, and from there spread,
    original Albanians are considered the arberesh who moved from Romania with Byzantine army to sicily to Albania to Greece and then back to sicily,

    who have assimilation of older population of Illyrians (Celtic+Pelasgic) and later roman by migrated Albanians,
    just compare it with new world,
    from a few starting colonies, the American continent is almost assimilated by Europeans, Linguistic, but not ethnically, the assimilation created new nations-cultures,
    so we consider a 'white' one as American, US citizen from >200 years, but we also consider a 'black' one from south plantation and also an Indian from Sioux nation for example, but if we go back in time we find tottally different nationalities,
    it depends on what time we see,
    before Colombos there were many nation in America,
    After we have the old Nations (maya-aztecs incas sioux iroquois etc) plus British spanish Dutch francais portoquese,
    after few revolts we the USAers, the Mexicans, the brazilians the Argentinians,

    so it is wrong to name Mexican an aztec at 1400
    an aztec is modern Mexican ,
    But we can not say Mexicans are from America and all mexicans are Aztec, or the Europe is Mexican expand,

    now about Tosk and Geg, yes there is a difference,
    I do not know exactly and I do not want to expand,




    try to understand what means founder effect,



    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    Any -dava toponyms in Albanian territory? Dacia was full of them.
    yes there is another one in modern Albania and few more in Kossovo bosnia and fyrom,
    like kellidava

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    question from an outsider (not involved in Balkan conflicts): Elias, I gather from your post that you think Albanians are later immigrants into their areas? Where do you think they came from?
    Where I think Gheg speaking shiptars originated? dacia maybe, only clear if one takes a serious study of the Gheg language without Tosk influence, though I find it interest when I hear that albanians and modern day romanian language share similar vocabulary, I believe I read that here on this website.

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    in the 4th century AD, the Roman province of Dacia was on the adriatic sea.
    The 5 provinces of roman dacia where
    - Moesia which is modern Serbia
    - Dacia Ripensis which is Transylvania alp area
    - Dardania which is modern kosovo
    - Dacia Mediterranea which is western Bulgaria
    - Praevalitana which is modern northern Albania and Montenegro

    southern Albania was called Epirus Nova

    Illyria had 7 provinces and non where south of Montenegro

    Praevalitana was migrated by mostly vlachs

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Where I think Gheg speaking shiptars originated? dacia maybe, only clear if one takes a serious study of the Gheg language without Tosk influence, though I find it interest when I hear that albanians and modern day romanian language share similar vocabulary, I believe I read that here on this website.
    Do you even know the difference between Geg, Tosk, Arbresh and Arvanit?(Previously a variation of arbresh, newely made an own dialect in the same line as geg, tosk and Arbresh)

    The similar "vocabulary" you talk about is around 200 words, which are categorized to be of Thracian origin not Dacian.

    Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge on Albanian language at all.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    There is so much to quote here but anyway.


    -I read somewhere that Arberesh are Romanians who went to Sicily, then back and then back to sicily.
    I must say this is ridiculous. Arberesh are Roman Catholic Albanians. They migrated in Italy after the fall of Scanderbeg state. They were accepted by the King of Napples. Scanderbeg state was a vassal of the Kingdom of Naples and in fact Scanderbeg fought for the King of Naples by his call for an amount of time (2-3 years but i do not remember very well). For this documents exist from the Papal state also from the kingdom of Naples besides the Albanian Scanderbeg times. So this assumption is just ridiculous.


    -Also i read the Illyrian and Thracian words in Albanian are from the Slavs.
    Slavs assimilated the illyrians and thracians and not the other way around.


    -Also about the biggest Illyrian genes in the slavic countries.
    I don't see how it could be otherwise. Slavic countries today have at least 3mil Except Monte-Negro. So how did they become so much(considering they are about 7) from about 200.000-300.000 they originally came in the balkans around the 6th century with all the wars in more than 20mil? They assimilated the regional population. This is what we are sayin' lol.


    -Taranis this is for you since i see your some sort confused.
    Albanians and Shqipetar have no relation. Albania is the medieval name of Albania which at that time by the locals in Byzantine Chronicles was called Arbëri. Can you see any connection between Arbëri-Albanians? The first Albanian country was the "Principality of Arbër". Between the rivers Mat and Shkumbin. I'm not gonna go into the history but it was an absolute monarchy and the Prince was given the title Princeps Arbanorum.I'm interested in knowing if Albania and Arbëri have any similiraties or any common root.


    -I read smth about Latin and Greek in Albanian.
    I don't think albanian took the Latin and greek words into their language in the 15 century cause is very unlikely. Even I, that know almost shit about languages know that Greek words in albanian are from Classical Greek (See Taranis thread about albanian language in the Forum) and that Latin didn't exist in the 15 century+there are about 80-90 words in albanian that are from latin root but that you can't find in any other latin language , exp Bulcurum or smth like that that is modern day bujk in Albanian (See Taranis thread again). So if Latin didn't exist in the 15 century how did these latin words that don't exist in any other latin language end up in albanian?Also the first albanian book (that we know off) written in albanian is "Meshari i Gjon Buzukut' written between 1554-1555 by a Roman Catholic Priest. Book which translates into albanian a part of the Bible.


    -Albanians weren't always Muslim.
    All albanian were Christian until the Ottoman conquered the Balkans. Gjon Meshari again. So if albania was definitevely conquered 10 years after Scanderbeg death which means it was counquered around 1480. and in 1555 an book was written by a christian in albanian does that mean this christian is a Turk which once arrived in albania converted to Christian within 75 years??? This is a prove that albanian were once christian and this Christian wrote the same language as I write and speak today. Besides i'm Christian myself. Does this mean i'm a Turk who turned Christian at a time when Turks tried everything and put all the harshest measures to turn Christians into Muslim? Impossible.


    -I read smth about dialects, Arvanitika and Arberesh.
    Arvanitika and Arberesh aren't dialects. They both are Tosk sub dialects. And I speak Tosk.

    This video is Arvanitika spoken today in Greece (youtube.com/watch?v=Re6gQSyM6s4). I left it as text cause since i have less than 10 post i can't publish links.

    Anyone knowing Official Albanian can understand them very well, better that it would understand an Albanian from Lissus or Scutari or even Tirana or Durres.


    -And last but not least.
    If smo comes from somewhere, that somewhere has a name. Where from did the Turks brought us since we aren't Turks? Pls just don't say modern Azerbaijan cause is ridiculous and a shame for you who say it.


    PS: Taranis don't forget Arbëri and Albania. Any similarities?

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    Albanians in the Balkans

    A lot of talk by people that know nothing about Albanian history. Albania during the Middle Ages was known as Arberia (or Albania); most likely due to the fact that the Illyrian tribe known by this name became powerful and spread its control over ethnically similar tribes. Prior to this period, the tribes did not have a common identity and were identified on the bases of tribal names (as ancient authors have indicated). There is evidence of "Albanian" presence in Greece even during VI AD. Identification as "Shqiptar" spread during the 16th century, most likely to identify the people who speak the same language. History knows no major migrations that have taken place in the Albanian areas (occupations yes). All available knowledge about the Albanian people points to a very long existence in the same areas they inhabit today. There is no scientific data to dispute the theory that Albanians have preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe better than any other people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    You are wrong. The Greek word 'elapho-' has a different reflex in Germanic. The PIE root is *elenbho-, which is reflected in English as 'lamb'. Cognates also exist in the Celtic languages (Welsh 'elain', Old Irish 'elit' - both meaning 'doe').



    You are also wrong here. The word "Albatros" is derived from Arabic via Spanish "Alcatraz".

    Both the Celtic and Germanic (as well as Latin) words are indeed derived from "Albh-".



    Well, we have no idea what the Proto-Albanians designated themselves as. As established before, "Albanians" in an exonym (just like "Germans" or "Welsh"), and we do not know how the Proto-Albanians in Antiquity designated themselves.

    To pick the example of the Welsh, their self-designation "Cymry" would have been rendered as "Combrogi" in Antiquity. However, we don't see that term. Instead, we only find the designation Britons (Latin 'Britanni', which applied for all Celtic peoples in Britain - at least those living south of the Hadrian's Wall), as well as individual tribal names (Ordovici, Silures, etc.). So, we can expect that the Welsh identity only emerged in the Dark Ages when the Britonic tribes had to band together to fight off the Anglo-Saxons.

    For the Proto-Albanians, if they designated themselves as something akin to "Shqiptar" in Aniquity, we should see names like "Skipteri" or "Skipteroi" attested, which we don't.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gtcc1 View Post
    A lot of talk by people that know nothing about Albanian history. Albania during the Middle Ages was known as Arberia (or Albania); most likely due to the fact that the Illyrian tribe known by this name became powerful and spread its control over ethnically similar tribes. Prior to this period, the tribes did not have a common identity and were identified on the bases of tribal names (as ancient authors have indicated). There is evidence of "Albanian" presence in Greece even during VI AD. Identification as "Shqiptar" spread during the 16th century, most likely to identify the people who speak the same language. History knows no major migrations that have taken place in the Albanian areas (occupations yes).
    Yes, I mostly agree up to this part, except that I have my scepticism (on linguistic grounds) that the Albanians have anything to do with the Illyrians. However, I do not agree with this:

    All available knowledge about the Albanian people points to a very long existence in the same areas they inhabit today. There is no scientific data to dispute the theory that Albanians have preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe better than any other people.
    If we go by loanwords into Albanian (the oldest stratum are classical Greek loanwords), then yes, the Albanians have been living in approximately their current area since Antiquity. As for "having preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe", that statement I'm afraid makes no sense at all. The available scientific evidence heavily disputes such a statement.

    As far as oldest languages in Europe go, the Uralic languages (e.g. Finnish and Estonian) and perhaps Basque are probably the best candidates.

    As far as modern Indo-European languages go, the Baltic languages are probabaly more representative of the original condition in PIE, especially in terms of declension (preserving all 8 declensions found in Proto-Indo-European, in contrast Albanian has only 5 declensions). Additionally, the situation in Albanian gets more complicated by the fact that there is a surprisingly small amount of vocabulary in Albanian that is actually native (that is, derived from Proto-Indo-European) due to the large amount of loanwords. You can read more about the position of the Albanian language in this thread.
    Last edited by Taranis; 01-04-12 at 14:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    As far as modern Indo-European languages go, the Baltic languages are probabaly more representative of the original condition in PIE, especially in terms of declension (preserving all 8 declensions found in Proto-Indo-European, in contrast Albanian has only 5 declensions). Additionally, the situation in Albanian gets more complicated by the fact that there is a surprisingly small amount of vocabulary in Albanian that is actually native (that is, derived from Proto-Indo-European) due to the large amount of loanwords. You can read more about the position of the Albanian language in this thread.
    This is exactly what one can expect, considering rather small group of inhabitants, overwhelmed by neighbours for few thousand of years. Under these circumstances it is not surprising that Albanian language was highly modified by surrounding strong influences, what is actually surprising is, that it survived at all!
    Lots of herding in high mountains must have saved the nation.

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    Taranis,

    Your view of Albanian history is based on wrong assumptions. There is a question as to how "Greek" was classical Greek or how much Greek there was in linear B tablets. Ionic/Aeolic dialects were described to have been barbarian languages by ancient authors. Albanian language has inherited quite a few words from Homer which today's Greek does not have in use. A good question might be who borrowed from whom?

    Giuseppe Krispi would write:


    …in analyzing the origin of Greek language, it is realized that a major part of it reverts to Albanian…due to latters older origin; and in essence, the language that was spoken in centuries before Homer, even if it were to be half-Greek, it served as the source for most of the Hellenic language, and which basically does not differ from the original language…Pelasgian (Albanian, Mother of all Languages, 1831.)

    The latest is the work of philologist Guiseppe Katapano, Thot/Thoth spoke in Albanian, and indicates that Albanian language (or the original language from which Albanian would have evolved) was spoken very early in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtcc1 View Post
    Taranis,

    Your view of Albanian history is based on wrong assumptions.
    Not at all.

    There is a question as to how "Greek" was classical Greek or how much Greek there was in linear B tablets. Ionic/Aeolic dialects were described to have been barbarian languages by ancient authors. Albanian language has inherited quite a few words from Homer which today's Greek does not have in use. A good question might be who borrowed from whom?
    This statement makes no sense at all. If you had an understanding of linguistics you'd know that each Indo-European language has it's own native sound laws by which words were ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European language.

    There's no way how words that we unequivocaly can identity as originally Greek words are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian. This is because Greek and Albanian have very different sound laws (most notably, Greek is a Centum language whereas Albanian is a Satem language). Bear in mind that sound laws are exceptionless and apply to ALL words in a vocabulary. The only way for a sound law to not apply is that this word was borrowed from elsewhere after a specific law occured.

    Regarding words in Homeric Greek that are no longer found in modern Greek, that shouldn't be exactly surprising: there's many words for example in Anglo-Saxon that are not found in modern English. But there's no way that these ancient Greek words are Albanian loanwords - that just is impossible.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that there are no loanwords at all in ancient Greek (because there very clearly are), but there is no evidence of Albanian loanwords.

    Giuseppe Krispi would write:


    …in analyzing the origin of Greek language, it is realized that a major part of it reverts to Albanian…due to latters older origin; and in essence, the language that was spoken in centuries before Homer, even if it were to be half-Greek, it served as the source for most of the Hellenic language, and which basically does not differ from the original language…Pelasgian (Albanian, Mother of all Languages, 1831.)

    The latest is the work of philologist Guiseppe Katapano, Thot/Thoth spoke in Albanian, and indicates that Albanian language (or the original language from which Albanian would have evolved) was spoken very early in time.
    Sounds like a complete charlatan to me who has no understanding of linguistics.

    The whole concept of the Pelasgians, in my opinion, is based on a number of assumptions which may or may not be true:

    1) That the Greek term "Pelasgians" refers to the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece (since the usage of the term is vague enough, alternatively "Pelasgian" might refer to the Proto-Greek speakers, as opposed to non-Greek ones).

    2) That all the non-Greek elements in Greek can be exclusively assigned to these 'Pelasgians'.

    Even if we hold these assumptions to be true (though the second point is certainly false!), there's nothing amongst these "Pelasgian" words that can be tied with Albanian.

    Also, I must say that I find it amusing that all people who seek to tie Albanian and 'Pelasgian' somehow try to convince us that the Albanian language was purportedly unchanged across a time frame of 3000 or so years. No language, no matter how conservative, remains the same. In fact, there's plenty of evidence in Albanian itself that shows the language is not very conservative at all.
    Last edited by Taranis; 02-04-12 at 09:23.

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    A year ago Igenea post these numbers on Albanians

    mtDNA on Albanians are

    slavs 65%
    huns 9%
    illyrian 6%
    mongol 11%
    epirote 6%
    greek 3%

    In regards to Pelagians is old albanian in language, this is the last of the theories mentioned because the illyrian DNA is far too differerent to albanian.
    I read somewhere recently and i need to find it, is that the albanians came via roxalani lands in the aera north of the black sea

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    Gods I am tired of hearing what ever,

    First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic.

    Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method,

    Third, E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?


    I personally believed that the time of Hotza is ended, but I see it is not,


    and Arvanitika is Tosk!!!!! and which Arbanitika? why don't you search how many are the Arbanites and how many Speak the Language?
    Have you ever Read Mpotsari?
    does Suliotet with Leyktra Arbanites spoke the same?


    Search the Data. in another post Epirotes who by STrabo are the Archegonus Greeks Γραικοι are named as non Greeks!!!!

    whatever and whenever,
    I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!!
    from someone that never read Greek modern History,

    I even heard that Albania is a poor land, although the estimations and the search say that is the most rich in Balkans in water reserves, in silver in asphalt in minerals,
    I was working in the project about the Hydro-plants
    the one that few years before made riots in Tirana (when people were shoot)

    when I was a Kid I was thinking like a kid,
    Now I can't, cause I learn to judge by facts and not by heart.
    even today I make many mistakes, but at least I have Learned to search the Truth,

    I know that nobody here will take me serious, cause I say bad things to your Hears, I represent the enemy to some in here
    But at least some of you who read this understand the charlatanism that is pushed by charlatans.

    DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF

    there are countries with few pages of history in modern world that are ahead of countries with millions of pages.

    E-V13 founder effect??

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    A year ago Igenea post these numbers on Albanians

    mtDNA on Albanians are

    slavs 65%
    huns 9%
    illyrian 6%
    mongol 11%
    epirote 6%
    greek 3%

    In regards to Pelagians is old albanian in language, this is the last of the theories mentioned because the illyrian DNA is far too differerent to albanian.
    I read somewhere recently and i need to find it, is that the albanians came via roxalani lands in the aera north of the black sea
    This is another result of iGenea. This site is not to be based on, at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Gods I am tired of hearing what ever,

    First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic.

    Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method,

    Third, E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?


    I personally believed that the time of Hotza is ended, but I see it is not,


    and Arvanitika is Tosk!!!!! and which Arbanitika? why don't you search how many are the Arbanites and how many Speak the Language?
    Have you ever Read Mpotsari?
    does Suliotet with Leyktra Arbanites spoke the same?


    Search the Data. in another post Epirotes who by STrabo are the Archegonus Greeks Γραικοι are named as non Greeks!!!!

    whatever and whenever,
    I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!!
    from someone that never read Greek modern History,

    I even heard that Albania is a poor land, although the estimations and the search say that is the most rich in Balkans in water reserves, in silver in asphalt in minerals,
    I was working in the project about the Hydro-plants
    the one that few years before made riots in Tirana (when people were shoot)

    when I was a Kid I was thinking like a kid,
    Now I can't, cause I learn to judge by facts and not by heart.
    even today I make many mistakes, but at least I have Learned to search the Truth,

    I know that nobody here will take me serious, cause I say bad things to your Hears, I represent the enemy to some in here
    But at least some of you who read this understand the charlatanism that is pushed by charlatans.

    DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF

    there are countries with few pages of history in modern world that are ahead of countries with millions of pages.

    E-V13 founder effect??
    O god no, you didn't say it...Arvanitika isn't Tosk? PLS elaborate with your deep knowledge in Albanian language how Arvanitika isn't Tosk. Explain to me all the differences between Arvanitika and Tosk. Morphological, syntax, everything. You seem to know Arvanitika very well, even it's sub-dialects.

    Listen to Albanian spoken by persons who claim to be of Greek origin though they speak Albanian among each other and have Albanian as a mother tongue. This persons were born in Greece, never been to Albania.

    Video

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    This is another result of iGenea. This site is not to be based on, at all...



    O god no, you didn't say it...Arvanitika isn't Tosk? PLS elaborate with your deep knowledge in Albanian language how Arvanitika isn't Tosk. Explain to me all the differences between Arvanitika and Tosk. Morphological, syntax, everything. You seem to know Arvanitika very well, even it's sub-dialects.

    Listen to Albanian spoken by persons who claim to be of Greek origin though they speak Albanian among each other and have Albanian as a mother tongue. This persons were born in Greece, never been to Albania.

    Video

    I don't trust a video, but the official results of Arbanites organizations,

    First there 3 types of Arbanitika

    the Kangure Καγκουρες which is the Arbanites that came after invitation of Latin Feudal of Athens,
    Second is The Suliotet Arbanitika -Epirotika which is a total different semi albanian-semi Greek Epirotan
    and 3rd is the Arbanitika -arbantoVlachika of Thessaly -West Greece

    the first are considered to be Arberians of Geg origin but similar Tosk Syntax
    their dialect is mainly considered next with Arberesh (bukure morea)
    The second is the Kastrioti soldiers and followers mainly from Berat area,
    the 3rd is after Kastrioti death until Moschopolis Burn,

    Arbanites are 150 000 in Greece and exist much before 1700,

    after 1912 many Orthodox Albanians came to Greece especially at 1940-45 (Xylia case)
    and after until 1950-60 when Hotza put the mines at the boarder it was a common phenomena Albanians to escape from Hotza to enter Greece, these are not Arbanites,
    as they are not Arbanites all Orthodox Albanians,
    Arbanites are the ones who came at Latin Feudal of Athens the Konga's Καγκουρες
    and the real ones are the ones who fought with Kastrioti Kladas etc until the times of Ali Pasha Ioannina vs Argyrokastro war. (Κλεφτο-Αρβανιτες)
    all the rest are not Arbanites, but Albanians

    PS Orthodox Albanian does mean Arbanites,

    Albanians enter Greece massive at 1 WW at 2nd WW until '60 and at '86 till today
    interesting is the case of Gorani which have a massive devastation of 40% of their pop to Greece after '91
    the ones who enter at 86 today have >20 years old children who can speak albanian as mother tongue,
    that is why I don't trust the video,
    Besides my brother in law is Arbanitis so I know well who are they , how many,
    they have books of genealogies in all of their club-organisations. and their own lexicons.
    The first Lexicon of Arbanitica which is also the first attempt of Lexicon in Albanian language is written down by Mpotsari and shows a connection of Klefto-Arbanitika with Tosk which is consider more close to Greek Syntax than Geg
    Klefto-Arbanitika is considered a language mostly Albanian with Greek about 50-50
    Kangoures are consider a language mostly Albanian geg >50% but accepted the Greek syntax so they speak like Tosk,

    the above population in numbers in their books was about 120 000 people in 70's when Arbanites-Kangoures were considered as elite culture by the dictators. (same with Pagkalos dictaorship)

    all the rest are mainly Albanians who like to play the Arbanites.


    PS don't mix the Leyktra-Athens Arbanites -Kagkoures with the Kleft-Arbanites, they share no common exept Albanian Vocabulary.


    κους ε πρεσσε λοντερνε, τι κιεμαι τι μοτρενε (kagkoures)
    in latin alphabet
    kus e presse londerne, ti kieme ti motrene
    (he who stops the music, his sister is .....ed)

    κι ος πρισκε Νταουλτζετ(turkish Davoul), να του χιαμου τι μητρενα (kleft-arbanitika of upper Pindus)
    in Latin
    ki os priske Davouls, na tu chiamu ti metrena
    (and the ones who stops the organs, his sister will be ..ed)

    the above is not mine, but from people who I know,
    in an old effort of writing down and compare Arbanitika.
    the differences are big as you see, as also the similarities,
    in first we have Albanian who, presse?loderne motrene
    in second we have Greek kai priske? os na tou mhtris
    kieme, chiamou and γαμεω is just a shift of the same word f...
    Κ γ χ are easily changed cause all are dental

    another similarity is the word presse and priske I put it in Albanian mainly due to sound
    but lets look at Greek vocabulary
    πραττω - πρασσω
    when I end I stop εφερα εις περας - περατωσα from περατωνω
    σο πραττω - πρασσω ( I make, i work,) περας (end-stop) περατωσις (final)

    so the word presse goes more to Albanian but priske if we write it as πρησκε cognates with Greek end with move of a vowel (ανταλλαγη) περας-> πρεας so περασει περατωσει -> presei πρησει (ε+α=η) the double tt-ss goes sk so πρησκει
    as you see the similarities can be the difference.
    it is difficult to certify,
    another example is Μυρμηξ - μυρμηγκι μαρμαγκαλος ανδ merimange
    (myrminx = the ant Greek, marmagkalos = a kind of spider that rounds many times its victim a myries agkalies (μυρ+αγκαλη) or if connect with marmor means white eater-catcher (mar+μεγγενη latin manducare) Albanian merimange a meri+manducare?
    or myr+??? (compare myriapod) ?)
    As you see myrminx μυρ+μεγγενη sounds same with merimange μερι+μεγγενη
    but one is ant and the other is spider
    marmagkalos is a special kind of spider a female one, not aracnhia.
    Such similarities make 'scientists' like Kola to say what ever, with no proves
    the same is what Albanian nationalist after ismail kandere are working,
    it is like the word Παττατα potatto because is Greek to say that English is after Greek and not a loan from another.
    or common roots words to provide them as original of only one,
    imagine that word one eine uno to claim that is Greek after word ενα
    that is what cheap 'scientists' claim.
    and believe me they are many,


    don't be shocked when you hear the word χαμουρα, Chamura cause I don't know what it means in Albanian, but in Kleft-Arbanitika means something like f...ed, or whore, and is not connected only with kieme gameo but also with word for down - χαμω -χαμηλα-χους etc
    Last edited by Yetos; 02-04-12 at 18:21.

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    Taranis,

    I don't think you read what I wrote. Your last paragraph summarizes not what I said, but what I said. All I did was list what others have said. It is easy to discredit others, easy to cast doubt on data, for we are talking about a distant past. I know one thing, the common Greek view of their past is full assumptions that no one has cared to prove. The mindset that these assumptions have created, can't accept opinions at variance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Not at all.



    This statement makes no sense at all. If you had an understanding of linguistics you'd know that each Indo-European language has it's own native sound laws by which words were ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European language.

    There's no way how words that we unequivocaly can identity as originally Greek words are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian. This is because Greek and Albanian have very different sound laws (most notably, Greek is a Centum language whereas Albanian is a Satem language). Bear in mind that sound laws are exceptionless and apply to ALL words in a vocabulary. The only way for a sound law to not apply is that this word was borrowed from elsewhere after a specific law occured.

    Regarding words in Homeric Greek that are no longer found in modern Greek, that shouldn't be exactly surprising: there's many words for example in Anglo-Saxon that are not found in modern English. But there's no way that these ancient Greek words are Albanian loanwords - that just is impossible.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that there are no loanwords at all in ancient Greek (because there very clearly are), but there is no evidence of Albanian loanwords.



    Sounds like a complete charlatan to me who has no understanding of linguistics.

    The whole concept of the Pelasgians, in my opinion, is based on a number of assumptions which may or may not be true:

    1) That the Greek term "Pelasgians" refers to the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece (since the usage of the term is vague enough, alternatively "Pelasgian" might refer to the Proto-Greek speakers, as opposed to non-Greek ones).

    2) That all the non-Greek elements in Greek can be exclusively assigned to these 'Pelasgians'.

    Even if we hold these assumptions to be true (though the second point is certainly false!), there's nothing amongst these "Pelasgian" words that can be tied with Albanian.

    Also, I must say that I find it amusing that all people who seek to tie Albanian and 'Pelasgian' somehow try to convince us that the Albanian language was purportedly unchanged across a time frame of 3000 or so years. No language, no matter how conservative, remains the same. In fact, there's plenty of evidence in Albanian itself that shows the language is not very conservative at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtcc1 View Post
    Taranis,

    I don't think you read what I wrote. Your last paragraph summarizes not what I said, but what I said. All I did was list what others have said. It is easy to discredit others, easy to cast doubt on data, for we are talking about a distant past. I know one thing, the common Greek view of their past is full assumptions that no one has cared to prove. The mindset that these assumptions have created, can't accept opinions at variance.
    gtcc1, open your ears and listen closely what Taranis says. Try very hard to get off your Albanian horse, fed whole life with strongly nationalistic and highly skewed information, not to say propaganda. Read it, give it a chance to settle, read it again in few days or a month, and see if the puzzle is starting to fit together.
    Keep in mind that people from outside have more realistic, indifferent and objective point of view, than people from Albania (in case we discuss Albania, or Greeks in case of Greece), because we are not emotionally attached to the country.
    gtcc1 give Taranis a chance to point you in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I don't trust a video, but the official results of Arbanites organizations,

    First there 3 types of Arbanitika

    the Kangure Καγκουρες which is the Arbanites that came after invitation of Latin Feudal of Athens,
    Second is The Suliotet Arbanitika -Epirotika which is a total different semi albanian-semi Greek Epirotan
    and 3rd is the Arbanitika -arbantoVlachika of Thessaly -West Greece

    the first are considered to be Arberians of Geg origin but similar Tosk Syntax
    their dialect is mainly considered next with Arberesh (bukure morea)
    The second is the Kastrioti soldiers and followers mainly from Berat area,
    the 3rd is after Kastrioti death until Moschopolis Burn,

    Arbanites are 150 000 in Greece and exist much before 1700,

    after 1912 many Orthodox Albanians came to Greece especially at 1940-45 (Xylia case)
    and after until 1950-60 when Hotza put the mines at the boarder it was a common phenomena Albanians to escape from Hotza to enter Greece, these are not Arbanites,
    as they are not Arbanites all Orthodox Albanians,
    Arbanites are the ones who came at Latin Feudal of Athens the Konga's Καγκουρες
    and the real ones are the ones who fought with Kastrioti Kladas etc until the times of Ali Pasha Ioannina vs Argyrokastro war. (Κλεφτο-Αρβανιτες)
    all the rest are not Arbanites, but Albanians

    PS Orthodox Albanian does mean Arbanites,

    Albanians enter Greece massive at 1 WW at 2nd WW until '60 and at '86 till today
    interesting is the case of Gorani which have a massive devastation of 40% of their pop to Greece after '91
    the ones who enter at 86 today have >20 years old children who can speak albanian as mother tongue,
    that is why I don't trust the video,
    Besides my brother in law is Arbanitis so I know well who are they , how many,
    they have books of genealogies in all of their club-organisations. and their own lexicons.
    The first Lexicon of Arbanitica which is also the first attempt of Lexicon in Albanian language is written down by Mpotsari and shows a connection of Klefto-Arbanitika with Tosk which is consider more close to Greek Syntax than Geg
    Klefto-Arbanitika is considered a language mostly Albanian with Greek about 50-50
    Kangoures are consider a language mostly Albanian geg >50% but accepted the Greek syntax so they speak like Tosk,

    the above population in numbers in their books was about 120 000 people in 70's when Arbanites-Kangoures were considered as elite culture by the dictators. (same with Pagkalos dictaorship)

    all the rest are mainly Albanians who like to play the Arbanites.


    PS don't mix the Leyktra-Athens Arbanites -Kagkoures with the Kleft-Arbanites, they share no common exept Albanian Vocabulary.




    κι ος πρισκε Νταουλτζετ(turkish Davoul), να του χιαμου τι μητρενα (kleft-arbanitika of upper Pindus)
    in Latin
    ki os priske Davouls, na tu chiamu ti metrena
    (and the ones who stops the organs, his sister will be ..ed)

    the above is not mine, but from people who I know,
    in an old effort of writing down and compare Arbanitika.
    the differences are big as you see, as also the similarities,
    in first we have Albanian who, presse?loderne motrene
    in second we have Greek kai priske? os na tou mhtris
    kieme, chiamou and γαμεω is just a shift of the same word f...
    Κ γ χ are easily changed cause all are dental

    another similarity is the word presse and priske I put it in Albanian mainly due to sound
    but lets look at Greek vocabulary
    πραττω - πρασσω
    when I end I stop εφερα εις περας - περατωσα from περατωνω
    σο πραττω - πρασσω ( I make, i work,) περας (end-stop) περατωσις (final)

    so the word presse goes more to Albanian but priske if we write it as πρησκε cognates with Greek end with move of a vowel (ανταλλαγη) περας-> πρεας so περασει περατωσει -> presei πρησει (ε+α=η) the double tt-ss goes sk so πρησκει
    as you see the similarities can be the difference.
    it is difficult to certify,
    another example is Μυρμηξ - μυρμηγκι μαρμαγκαλος ανδ merimange
    (myrminx = the ant Greek, marmagkalos = a kind of spider that rounds many times its victim a myries agkalies (μυρ+αγκαλη) or if connect with marmor means white eater-catcher (mar+μεγγενη latin manducare) Albanian merimange a meri+manducare?
    or myr+??? (compare myriapod) ?)
    As you see myrminx μυρ+μεγγενη sounds same with merimange μερι+μεγγενη
    but one is ant and the other is spider
    marmagkalos is a special kind of spider a female one, not aracnhia.
    Such similarities make 'scientists' like Kola to say what ever, with no proves
    the same is what Albanian nationalist after ismail kandere are working,
    it is like the word Παττατα potatto because is Greek to say that English is after Greek and not a loan from another.
    or common roots words to provide them as original of only one,
    imagine that word one eine uno to claim that is Greek after word ενα
    that is what cheap 'scientists' claim.
    and believe me they are many,


    don't be shocked when you hear the word χαμουρα, Chamura cause I don't know what it means in Albanian, but in Kleft-Arbanitika means something like f...ed, or whore, and is not connected only with kieme gameo but also with word for down - χαμω -χαμηλα-χους etc
    I'm gonna respond to what i understood and wasn't in Greek.

    For starters Arvanits settled in Greece, mainly in Peloponez peninsula in the beggining of the XV century. The one you call Arvanitika, which you say is half greek and half albanian is not Arvanitika, proper Arvanitika but cause of the centuries passed there and the Greek being the main language, especially after Greece Independence and thanks to the Church, whose rituals were done in Greek, even in albania, let alone in Greece till late these people started loosing their mother language or started loaning Greek words. So for gods sake do not take loan words to tell me that Arvanitika isn't Tosk. If you take it like that, then with the shitload of latin and Italian loan words, among other shit load of loan words Albanian should be called smth like Alb-talian or is like sayin' that Albanian is a latin language cause of all the latin origin loan words. Be serious.

    κους ε πρεσσε λοντερνε, τι κιεμαι τι μοτρενε (kagkoures)
    in latin alphabet
    kus e presse londerne, ti kieme ti motrene
    (he who stops the music, his sister is .....ed)
    As for this part, you can consider this to be archaic Albanian and proves some sound laws in Albanians, that s>sh and k>q and further more tell that this change has happened very late, idk if Taranis would agree but it's mass change started in mass after the 1500 or late 1400.

    And just so you know, proper Arvanitika, clean of modern Greek loanings, main difference from Tosk is that Northern Tosk "y" is Arvanitika, Southern Albanian and Tcham "i". Also Arvanitika conserves some archaic forms of Albanian. Like Albanian "gjuhë" is Arvanitika "gljuhë". Which shows that modern Albanian "gj", if after it is a vocal was "glj". The same is with Gheg and modern Albanian. The Gheg "kjoftë" is the modern Albanian "qoftë" (note it ends with ë not e so it's not "meatballs"). Again besides the fact that k>q you again see that if after the modern "q" is a vocal is becomes "kj", while if after is a consonant the "j" gets lost like Arvanitika "falj-na" and Albanian "falna".

    And just to make clear, if you wanna know more read [URL"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika"]this[/URL] if not i'm just gonna put some small paragraphs just to show all your point.

    The name Arvanítika and its native equivalent Arbërisht[3] are derived from the ethnonym Arvanites, which in turn comes from the toponym Arbëna (Greek: Άρβανα), which in the Middle Ages referred to a region in what is today Albania (Babiniotis 1998). Its native equivalents (Arbërorë, Arbëreshë and others) formerly were the self-designation of Albanians in general. In the past Arvanitika had sometimes been described as "Graeco-Albanian" and the like (e.g. Furikis, 1934), although today many Arvanites consider such names offensive, as they identify nationally and ethnically as Greeks and not Albanians.
    While linguistic scholarship unanimously describes Arvanitika as a dialect of Albanian many Arvanites are reported to dislike the use of the name "Albanian" to designate it, as it carries the connotation of Albanian nationality and is thus felt to call their Greek identity into question.

    O and that "video" was made by an national TV, the best actually not only in Albania but considered to be on Top 3 for professionalism, technology and everything else in Balkan. The TV which the Greek prime ministers, ministers, opposition leaders, minority and every other Greek goes to if he has smth to say. If you do not want to believe it nobody cares, the truth is that that video is true and unlike your Arvanitika organizations who do everything to deny their Albanian heritage, here by the majority of the people if smth is Greek nobody even thinks to say otherwise, unlike this Arvanitika association in this case. The truth is the truth, it doesn't matter if this associations like it or if they don't like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    I'm gonna respond to what i understood and wasn't in Greek.

    For starters Arvanits settled in Greece, mainly in Peloponez peninsula in the beggining of the XV century. The one you call Arvanitika, which you say is half greek and half albanian is not Arvanitika, proper Arvanitika but cause of the centuries passed there and the Greek being the main language, especially after Greece Independence and thanks to the Church, whose rituals were done in Greek, even in albania, let alone in Greece till late these people started loosing their mother language or started loaning Greek words. So for gods sake do not take loan words to tell me that Arvanitika isn't Tosk. If you take it like that, then with the shitload of latin and Italian loan words, among other shit load of loan words Albanian should be called smth like Alb-talian or is like sayin' that Albanian is a latin language cause of all the latin origin loan words. Be serious.



    As for this part, you can consider this to be archaic Albanian and proves some sound laws in Albanians, that s>sh and k>q and further more tell that this change has happened very late, idk if Taranis would agree but it's mass change started in mass after the 1500 or late 1400.

    And just so you know, proper Arvanitika, clean of modern Greek loanings, main difference from Tosk is that Northern Tosk "y" is Arvanitika, Southern Albanian and Tcham "i". Also Arvanitika conserves some archaic forms of Albanian. Like Albanian "gjuhë" is Arvanitika "gljuhë". Which shows that modern Albanian "gj", if after it is a vocal was "glj". The same is with Gheg and modern Albanian. The Gheg "kjoftë" is the modern Albanian "qoftë" (note it ends with ë not e so it's not "meatballs"). Again besides the fact that k>q you again see that if after the modern "q" is a vocal is becomes "kj", while if after is a consonant the "j" gets lost like Arvanitika "falj-na" and Albanian "falna".

    And just to make clear, if you wanna know more read [URL"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika"]this[/URL] if not i'm just gonna put some small paragraphs just to show all your point.






    O and that "video" was made by an national TV, the best actually not only in Albania but considered to be on Top 3 for professionalism, technology and everything else in Balkan. The TV which the Greek prime ministers, ministers, opposition leaders, minority and every other Greek goes to if he has smth to say. If you do not want to believe it nobody cares, the truth is that that video is true and unlike your Arvanitika organizations who do everything to deny their Albanian heritage, here by the majority of the people if smth is Greek nobody even thinks to say otherwise, unlike this Arvanitika association in this case. The truth is the truth, it doesn't matter if this associations like it or if they don't like it.
    Sorry pal, only by the dates you give
    I see that you know nothing about ARbanitika
    and the old Languages,

    mainly it is the oposite,
    Search all good linguists,


    the rest is like the claim that E-V13 is founder effect


    Arbanites first in peloponese?
    only that is a prove that you read and transmit and you do not know nothing
    search better,

    like Aristeidh kolla,

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions. For "strong nationalist views and highly skewed information" most Greek activists are second to none. I have never been in Albania, but in writing they seem to be less demagogic than the Greeks. I am sure you have not read anything from Albanian historians, and I have read Greek historians. Let's move away from historians and talk about real things, Albanians have not attempted to expel populations and change the character of regions and say oh, this has always been Greek, like Greeks have done throughout Greece. Be considered.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    gtcc1, open your ears and listen closely what Taranis says. Try very hard to get off your Albanian horse, fed whole life with strongly nationalistic and highly skewed information, not to say propaganda. Read it, give it a chance to settle, read it again in few days or a month, and see if the puzzle is starting to fit together.
    Keep in mind that people from outside have more realistic, indifferent and objective point of view, than people from Albania (in case we discuss Albania, or Greeks in case of Greece), because we are not emotionally attached to the country.
    gtcc1 give Taranis a chance to point you in the right direction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtcc1 View Post
    I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions.
    I can only repeat what LeBrok said: re-read my post, and re-read it carefully. I honestly don't care a damn about any kind of animosities on either side (Greeks or Albanians, really), and I take no side in this discussion.

    My opinion is solely based on 130+ years of methodology in linguistics and what the languages themselves tell us.

    In fact, I would like to quote myself in the context of what I had to say to a different gentlman on this forum who has a vaguely similar view to yourself concerning Albanian:

    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Well, I insist on it for two reasons: first, I know the methodology of mainstream linguistics. In particular the comparative method and the concept of sound correspondence, to which the very concept of the Indo-European languages owes its very existence. The second is that I know Albanian well enough to tell you about its sound laws and how Albanian sounds correspond to PIE. In fact, it doesn't matter in this regard if one is talking about Albanian, Celtiberian, Hittite or Tocharian. The rules of the 'game' are always the same.



    And well, I have to tell you that these are not Etruscan numerals. Also, well, if you play this by the book, and pick up for the moment that Etruscan was related with Albanian, how do you explain that Etruscan had such a different sound inventory from Albanian? Which Etruscan sounds would correspond to Albanian sounds and vice versa? How do you explain that Albanian has the sounds /b/, /d/, /g/, /ɟ/, /ʒ/, /c/, /ð/, /θ/ etc. while Etruscan hasn't? If you do you homework, and can prove without the inch of a doubt which Etruscan sounds correspond to Albanian sounds and vice versa linguists are going to consider the possibility of a relationship (I'm afraid I don't see that happening, however). Otherwise, Jacob Grimm is going to come and bust you...

    Well, actually, let me pick up your examples there. First off, let's take a look at the word for 'two' in various branches of IE:

    Baltic:
    Lithuanian - Du
    Latvian - Divi

    Celtic:
    Breton - Daou
    Irish - Dhá
    Welsh - Dau

    Germanic:
    Danish - To
    Dutch - Twee
    German - Zwei
    Gothic - Twai
    Norwegian - To
    Swedish - Två

    Italic/Romance:
    Catalan - Dos
    French - Deux
    Italian - Due
    Latin - Duo
    Portuguese - Dois
    Romanian - Două
    Spanish - Dos

    Slavic:
    Belorussian - Dva
    Bulgarian - Dve
    Croatian - Dva
    Czech - Dvě
    Polish - Dwa
    Russian - Dva
    Serbian - Dva
    Slovak - Dve
    Slovenian - Dva
    Ukrainian - Dva

    Other IE:
    Greek - Duo
    Sanskrit - Dvi
    Hindi - Dō

    As you can see, with the notable exception of the Germanic languages, in all language families in the list, the word for 'two' starts with *d. As I stated earlier, the Proto-Indo-Europan word for 'two' is reconstructed as 'dwo-'. Now, regarding the Germanic languages, the word is (with exception of German, but note that German 'z' is pronounced as /ts/) consistently *t. From that, we establish the hypothesis that Germanic *t corresponds with PIE *d. So, if we look at a few other English words, and compare it with cognates in other IE languages (I here take Latin), we can confirm this:

    (to) teach - dicere
    (to) tame - domare
    ten - decem
    Tues(-day) - Deus

    We can establish that English (and by extension, Germanic) *t corresponds with PIE *d. Now, let's take a look at a few English words and their German cognates:

    tame - zahm
    tap - zapfen
    ten - zehn
    (to) tie - ziehen
    (to) tear - zerren
    to - zu

    From that we can establish that German /ts-/ corresponds with English (and other Germanic) /t-/, and by extension that German *ts- corresponds with PIE *d.

    What does this mean for Etruscan and Albanian? You claimed that an Etruscan word 'Tu' (of unknown meaning, but here assumed to be 'two') corresponds with Albanian 'Dy'. This would imply a shift from *t > *d. Sure, why not. If the hypothesis was correct, then we would *t in Etruscan to be regularly shifted to *d. You take the next Etruscan word, 'Tris' (assumed to mean 'three') and compared with the Albanian word, which however is 'Tre'. Apparently, suddenly Etruscan *t corresponds with *t in Albanian. Which one is it?

    The Neogrammarian hypothesis states that 'sound laws have no exception'. If they seemingly have exceptions, these are governed by their own set of rules. So, what do you think is more likely? That Albanian is descended from Etruscan, or that Albanian is descended from Proto-Indo-European?

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