Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)

A year ago Igenea post these numbers on Albanians

mtDNA on Albanians are

slavs 65%
huns 9%
illyrian 6%
mongol 11%
epirote 6%
greek 3%

In regards to Pelagians is old albanian in language, this is the last of the theories mentioned because the illyrian DNA is far too differerent to albanian.
I read somewhere recently and i need to find it, is that the albanians came via roxalani lands in the aera north of the black sea
 
Gods I am tired of hearing what ever,

First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic.

Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method,

Third, E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?


I personally believed that the time of Hotza is ended, but I see it is not,


and Arvanitika is Tosk!!!!! and which Arbanitika? why don't you search how many are the Arbanites and how many Speak the Language?
Have you ever Read Mpotsari?
does Suliotet with Leyktra Arbanites spoke the same?


Search the Data. in another post Epirotes who by STrabo are the Archegonus Greeks Γραικοι are named as non Greeks!!!!

whatever and whenever,
I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!!
from someone that never read Greek modern History,

I even heard that Albania is a poor land, although the estimations and the search say that is the most rich in Balkans in water reserves, in silver in asphalt in minerals,
I was working in the project about the Hydro-plants
the one that few years before made riots in Tirana (when people were shoot)

when I was a Kid I was thinking like a kid,
Now I can't, cause I learn to judge by facts and not by heart.
even today I make many mistakes, but at least I have Learned to search the Truth,

I know that nobody here will take me serious, cause I say bad things to your Hears, I represent the enemy to some in here
But at least some of you who read this understand the charlatanism that is pushed by charlatans.

DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF

there are countries with few pages of history in modern world that are ahead of countries with millions of pages.

E-V13 founder effect??
 
A year ago Igenea post these numbers on Albanians

mtDNA on Albanians are

slavs 65%
huns 9%
illyrian 6%
mongol 11%
epirote 6%
greek 3%

In regards to Pelagians is old albanian in language, this is the last of the theories mentioned because the illyrian DNA is far too differerent to albanian.
I read somewhere recently and i need to find it, is that the albanians came via roxalani lands in the aera north of the black sea

This is another result of iGenea. This site is not to be based on, at all...

Gods I am tired of hearing what ever,

First Yehunda's work did not say that pelasgians are Hebrew, but Hatti language is the mother of Pelasgian Etruscan Phoenician Aramaic.

Second the A kola and the rest charlatanism is over, They were speaking mostly to People that like to hear fairytales but did not Search. the Ismail Kandere Method,

Third, E-V13 in Balkans as Founder effect? and what about the law of Diversities? we just overlap him yeah?


I personally believed that the time of Hotza is ended, but I see it is not,


and Arvanitika is Tosk!!!!! and which Arbanitika? why don't you search how many are the Arbanites and how many Speak the Language?
Have you ever Read Mpotsari?
does Suliotet with Leyktra Arbanites spoke the same?


Search the Data. in another post Epirotes who by STrabo are the Archegonus Greeks Γραικοι are named as non Greeks!!!!

whatever and whenever,
I even heard that Greek revolution started by Albanians!!!!!!
from someone that never read Greek modern History,

I even heard that Albania is a poor land, although the estimations and the search say that is the most rich in Balkans in water reserves, in silver in asphalt in minerals,
I was working in the project about the Hydro-plants
the one that few years before made riots in Tirana (when people were shoot)

when I was a Kid I was thinking like a kid,
Now I can't, cause I learn to judge by facts and not by heart.
even today I make many mistakes, but at least I have Learned to search the Truth,

I know that nobody here will take me serious, cause I say bad things to your Hears, I represent the enemy to some in here
But at least some of you who read this understand the charlatanism that is pushed by charlatans.

DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF

there are countries with few pages of history in modern world that are ahead of countries with millions of pages.

E-V13 founder effect??

O god no, you didn't say it...Arvanitika isn't Tosk? PLS elaborate with your deep knowledge in Albanian language how Arvanitika isn't Tosk. Explain to me all the differences between Arvanitika and Tosk. Morphological, syntax, everything. You seem to know Arvanitika very well, even it's sub-dialects.

Listen to Albanian spoken by persons who claim to be of Greek origin though they speak Albanian among each other and have Albanian as a mother tongue. This persons were born in Greece, never been to Albania.

Video
 
This is another result of iGenea. This site is not to be based on, at all...



O god no, you didn't say it...Arvanitika isn't Tosk? PLS elaborate with your deep knowledge in Albanian language how Arvanitika isn't Tosk. Explain to me all the differences between Arvanitika and Tosk. Morphological, syntax, everything. You seem to know Arvanitika very well, even it's sub-dialects.

Listen to Albanian spoken by persons who claim to be of Greek origin though they speak Albanian among each other and have Albanian as a mother tongue. This persons were born in Greece, never been to Albania.

Video


I don't trust a video, but the official results of Arbanites organizations,

First there 3 types of Arbanitika

the Kangure Καγκουρες which is the Arbanites that came after invitation of Latin Feudal of Athens,
Second is The Suliotet Arbanitika -Epirotika which is a total different semi albanian-semi Greek Epirotan
and 3rd is the Arbanitika -arbantoVlachika of Thessaly -West Greece

the first are considered to be Arberians of Geg origin but similar Tosk Syntax
their dialect is mainly considered next with Arberesh (bukure morea)
The second is the Kastrioti soldiers and followers mainly from Berat area,
the 3rd is after Kastrioti death until Moschopolis Burn,

Arbanites are 150 000 in Greece and exist much before 1700,

after 1912 many Orthodox Albanians came to Greece especially at 1940-45 (Xylia case)
and after until 1950-60 when Hotza put the mines at the boarder it was a common phenomena Albanians to escape from Hotza to enter Greece, these are not Arbanites,
as they are not Arbanites all Orthodox Albanians,
Arbanites are the ones who came at Latin Feudal of Athens the Konga's Καγκουρες
and the real ones are the ones who fought with Kastrioti Kladas etc until the times of Ali Pasha Ioannina vs Argyrokastro war. (Κλεφτο-Αρβανιτες)
all the rest are not Arbanites, but Albanians

PS Orthodox Albanian does mean Arbanites,

Albanians enter Greece massive at 1 WW at 2nd WW until '60 and at '86 till today
interesting is the case of Gorani which have a massive devastation of 40% of their pop to Greece after '91
the ones who enter at 86 today have >20 years old children who can speak albanian as mother tongue,
that is why I don't trust the video,
Besides my brother in law is Arbanitis so I know well who are they , how many,
they have books of genealogies in all of their club-organisations. and their own lexicons.
The first Lexicon of Arbanitica which is also the first attempt of Lexicon in Albanian language is written down by Mpotsari and shows a connection of Klefto-Arbanitika with Tosk which is consider more close to Greek Syntax than Geg
Klefto-Arbanitika is considered a language mostly Albanian with Greek about 50-50
Kangoures are consider a language mostly Albanian geg >50% but accepted the Greek syntax so they speak like Tosk,

the above population in numbers in their books was about 120 000 people in 70's when Arbanites-Kangoures were considered as elite culture by the dictators. (same with Pagkalos dictaorship)

all the rest are mainly Albanians who like to play the Arbanites.


PS don't mix the Leyktra-Athens Arbanites -Kagkoures with the Kleft-Arbanites, they share no common exept Albanian Vocabulary.


κους ε πρεσσε λοντερνε, τι κιεμαι τι μοτρενε (kagkoures)
in latin alphabet
kus e presse londerne, ti kieme ti motrene
(he who stops the music, his sister is .....ed)

κι ος πρισκε Νταουλτζετ(turkish Davoul), να του χιαμου τι μητρενα (kleft-arbanitika of upper Pindus)
in Latin
ki os priske Davouls, na tu chiamu ti metrena
(and the ones who stops the organs, his sister will be ..ed)

the above is not mine, but from people who I know,
in an old effort of writing down and compare Arbanitika.
the differences are big as you see, as also the similarities,
in first we have Albanian who, presse?loderne motrene
in second we have Greek kai priske? os na tou mhtris
kieme, chiamou and γαμεω is just a shift of the same word f...
Κ γ χ are easily changed cause all are dental

another similarity is the word presse and priske I put it in Albanian mainly due to sound
but lets look at Greek vocabulary
πραττω - πρασσω
when I end I stop εφερα εις περας - περατωσα from περατωνω
σο πραττω - πρασσω ( I make, i work,) περας (end-stop) περατωσις (final)

so the word presse goes more to Albanian but priske if we write it as πρησκε cognates with Greek end with move of a vowel (ανταλλαγη) περας-> πρεας so περασει περατωσει -> presei πρησει (ε+α=η) the double tt-ss goes sk so πρησκει
as you see the similarities can be the difference.
it is difficult to certify,
another example is Μυρμηξ - μυρμηγκι μαρμαγκαλος ανδ merimange
(myrminx = the ant Greek, marmagkalos = a kind of spider that rounds many times its victim a myries agkalies (μυρ+αγκαλη) or if connect with marmor means white eater-catcher (mar+μεγγενη latin manducare) Albanian merimange a meri+manducare?
or myr+??? (compare myriapod) ?)
As you see myrminx μυρ+μεγγενη sounds same with merimange μερι+μεγγενη
but one is ant and the other is spider
marmagkalos is a special kind of spider a female one, not aracnhia.
Such similarities make 'scientists' like Kola to say what ever, with no proves
the same is what Albanian nationalist after ismail kandere are working,
it is like the word Παττατα potatto because is Greek to say that English is after Greek and not a loan from another.
or common roots words to provide them as original of only one,
imagine that word one eine uno to claim that is Greek after word ενα
that is what cheap 'scientists' claim.
and believe me they are many,


don't be shocked when you hear the word χαμουρα, Chamura cause I don't know what it means in Albanian, but in Kleft-Arbanitika means something like f...ed, or whore, and is not connected only with kieme gameo but also with word for down - χαμω -χαμηλα-χους etc
 
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Taranis,

I don't think you read what I wrote. Your last paragraph summarizes not what I said, but what I said. All I did was list what others have said. It is easy to discredit others, easy to cast doubt on data, for we are talking about a distant past. I know one thing, the common Greek view of their past is full assumptions that no one has cared to prove. The mindset that these assumptions have created, can't accept opinions at variance.


Not at all.



This statement makes no sense at all. If you had an understanding of linguistics you'd know that each Indo-European language has it's own native sound laws by which words were ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European language.

There's no way how words that we unequivocaly can identity as originally Greek words are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian. This is because Greek and Albanian have very different sound laws (most notably, Greek is a Centum language whereas Albanian is a Satem language). Bear in mind that sound laws are exceptionless and apply to ALL words in a vocabulary. The only way for a sound law to not apply is that this word was borrowed from elsewhere after a specific law occured.

Regarding words in Homeric Greek that are no longer found in modern Greek, that shouldn't be exactly surprising: there's many words for example in Anglo-Saxon that are not found in modern English. But there's no way that these ancient Greek words are Albanian loanwords - that just is impossible.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there are no loanwords at all in ancient Greek (because there very clearly are), but there is no evidence of Albanian loanwords.



Sounds like a complete charlatan to me who has no understanding of linguistics.

The whole concept of the Pelasgians, in my opinion, is based on a number of assumptions which may or may not be true:

1) That the Greek term "Pelasgians" refers to the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece (since the usage of the term is vague enough, alternatively "Pelasgian" might refer to the Proto-Greek speakers, as opposed to non-Greek ones).

2) That all the non-Greek elements in Greek can be exclusively assigned to these 'Pelasgians'.

Even if we hold these assumptions to be true (though the second point is certainly false!), there's nothing amongst these "Pelasgian" words that can be tied with Albanian.

Also, I must say that I find it amusing that all people who seek to tie Albanian and 'Pelasgian' somehow try to convince us that the Albanian language was purportedly unchanged across a time frame of 3000 or so years. No language, no matter how conservative, remains the same. In fact, there's plenty of evidence in Albanian itself that shows the language is not very conservative at all.
 
Taranis,

I don't think you read what I wrote. Your last paragraph summarizes not what I said, but what I said. All I did was list what others have said. It is easy to discredit others, easy to cast doubt on data, for we are talking about a distant past. I know one thing, the common Greek view of their past is full assumptions that no one has cared to prove. The mindset that these assumptions have created, can't accept opinions at variance.
gtcc1, open your ears and listen closely what Taranis says. Try very hard to get off your Albanian horse, fed whole life with strongly nationalistic and highly skewed information, not to say propaganda. Read it, give it a chance to settle, read it again in few days or a month, and see if the puzzle is starting to fit together.
Keep in mind that people from outside have more realistic, indifferent and objective point of view, than people from Albania (in case we discuss Albania, or Greeks in case of Greece), because we are not emotionally attached to the country.
gtcc1 give Taranis a chance to point you in the right direction.
 
I don't trust a video, but the official results of Arbanites organizations,

First there 3 types of Arbanitika

the Kangure Καγκουρες which is the Arbanites that came after invitation of Latin Feudal of Athens,
Second is The Suliotet Arbanitika -Epirotika which is a total different semi albanian-semi Greek Epirotan
and 3rd is the Arbanitika -arbantoVlachika of Thessaly -West Greece

the first are considered to be Arberians of Geg origin but similar Tosk Syntax
their dialect is mainly considered next with Arberesh (bukure morea)
The second is the Kastrioti soldiers and followers mainly from Berat area,
the 3rd is after Kastrioti death until Moschopolis Burn,

Arbanites are 150 000 in Greece and exist much before 1700,

after 1912 many Orthodox Albanians came to Greece especially at 1940-45 (Xylia case)
and after until 1950-60 when Hotza put the mines at the boarder it was a common phenomena Albanians to escape from Hotza to enter Greece, these are not Arbanites,
as they are not Arbanites all Orthodox Albanians,
Arbanites are the ones who came at Latin Feudal of Athens the Konga's Καγκουρες
and the real ones are the ones who fought with Kastrioti Kladas etc until the times of Ali Pasha Ioannina vs Argyrokastro war. (Κλεφτο-Αρβανιτες)
all the rest are not Arbanites, but Albanians

PS Orthodox Albanian does mean Arbanites,

Albanians enter Greece massive at 1 WW at 2nd WW until '60 and at '86 till today
interesting is the case of Gorani which have a massive devastation of 40% of their pop to Greece after '91
the ones who enter at 86 today have >20 years old children who can speak albanian as mother tongue,
that is why I don't trust the video,
Besides my brother in law is Arbanitis so I know well who are they , how many,
they have books of genealogies in all of their club-organisations. and their own lexicons.
The first Lexicon of Arbanitica which is also the first attempt of Lexicon in Albanian language is written down by Mpotsari and shows a connection of Klefto-Arbanitika with Tosk which is consider more close to Greek Syntax than Geg
Klefto-Arbanitika is considered a language mostly Albanian with Greek about 50-50
Kangoures are consider a language mostly Albanian geg >50% but accepted the Greek syntax so they speak like Tosk,

the above population in numbers in their books was about 120 000 people in 70's when Arbanites-Kangoures were considered as elite culture by the dictators. (same with Pagkalos dictaorship)

all the rest are mainly Albanians who like to play the Arbanites.


PS don't mix the Leyktra-Athens Arbanites -Kagkoures with the Kleft-Arbanites, they share no common exept Albanian Vocabulary.




κι ος πρισκε Νταουλτζετ(turkish Davoul), να του χιαμου τι μητρενα (kleft-arbanitika of upper Pindus)
in Latin
ki os priske Davouls, na tu chiamu ti metrena
(and the ones who stops the organs, his sister will be ..ed)

the above is not mine, but from people who I know,
in an old effort of writing down and compare Arbanitika.
the differences are big as you see, as also the similarities,
in first we have Albanian who, presse?loderne motrene
in second we have Greek kai priske? os na tou mhtris
kieme, chiamou and γαμεω is just a shift of the same word f...
Κ γ χ are easily changed cause all are dental

another similarity is the word presse and priske I put it in Albanian mainly due to sound
but lets look at Greek vocabulary
πραττω - πρασσω
when I end I stop εφερα εις περας - περατωσα from περατωνω
σο πραττω - πρασσω ( I make, i work,) περας (end-stop) περατωσις (final)

so the word presse goes more to Albanian but priske if we write it as πρησκε cognates with Greek end with move of a vowel (ανταλλαγη) περας-> πρεας so περασει περατωσει -> presei πρησει (ε+α=η) the double tt-ss goes sk so πρησκει
as you see the similarities can be the difference.
it is difficult to certify,
another example is Μυρμηξ - μυρμηγκι μαρμαγκαλος ανδ merimange
(myrminx = the ant Greek, marmagkalos = a kind of spider that rounds many times its victim a myries agkalies (μυρ+αγκαλη) or if connect with marmor means white eater-catcher (mar+μεγγενη latin manducare) Albanian merimange a meri+manducare?
or myr+??? (compare myriapod) ?)
As you see myrminx μυρ+μεγγενη sounds same with merimange μερι+μεγγενη
but one is ant and the other is spider
marmagkalos is a special kind of spider a female one, not aracnhia.
Such similarities make 'scientists' like Kola to say what ever, with no proves
the same is what Albanian nationalist after ismail kandere are working,
it is like the word Παττατα potatto because is Greek to say that English is after Greek and not a loan from another.
or common roots words to provide them as original of only one,
imagine that word one eine uno to claim that is Greek after word ενα
that is what cheap 'scientists' claim.
and believe me they are many,


don't be shocked when you hear the word χαμουρα, Chamura cause I don't know what it means in Albanian, but in Kleft-Arbanitika means something like f...ed, or whore, and is not connected only with kieme gameo but also with word for down - χαμω -χαμηλα-χους etc

I'm gonna respond to what i understood and wasn't in Greek.

For starters Arvanits settled in Greece, mainly in Peloponez peninsula in the beggining of the XV century. The one you call Arvanitika, which you say is half greek and half albanian is not Arvanitika, proper Arvanitika but cause of the centuries passed there and the Greek being the main language, especially after Greece Independence and thanks to the Church, whose rituals were done in Greek, even in albania, let alone in Greece till late these people started loosing their mother language or started loaning Greek words. So for gods sake do not take loan words to tell me that Arvanitika isn't Tosk. If you take it like that, then with the shitload of latin and Italian loan words, among other shit load of loan words Albanian should be called smth like Alb-talian or is like sayin' that Albanian is a latin language cause of all the latin origin loan words. Be serious.

κους ε πρεσσε λοντερνε, τι κιεμαι τι μοτρενε (kagkoures)
in latin alphabet
kus e presse londerne, ti kieme ti motrene
(he who stops the music, his sister is .....ed)

As for this part, you can consider this to be archaic Albanian and proves some sound laws in Albanians, that s>sh and k>q and further more tell that this change has happened very late, idk if Taranis would agree but it's mass change started in mass after the 1500 or late 1400.

And just so you know, proper Arvanitika, clean of modern Greek loanings, main difference from Tosk is that Northern Tosk "y" is Arvanitika, Southern Albanian and Tcham "i". Also Arvanitika conserves some archaic forms of Albanian. Like Albanian "gjuhë" is Arvanitika "gljuhë". Which shows that modern Albanian "gj", if after it is a vocal was "glj". The same is with Gheg and modern Albanian. The Gheg "kjoftë" is the modern Albanian "qoftë" (note it ends with ë not e so it's not "meatballs"). Again besides the fact that k>q you again see that if after the modern "q" is a vocal is becomes "kj", while if after is a consonant the "j" gets lost like Arvanitika "falj-na" and Albanian "falna".

And just to make clear, if you wanna know more read [URL"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika"]this[/URL] if not i'm just gonna put some small paragraphs just to show all your point.

The name Arvanítika and its native equivalent Arbërisht[3] are derived from the ethnonym Arvanites, which in turn comes from the toponym Arbëna (Greek: Άρβανα), which in the Middle Ages referred to a region in what is today Albania (Babiniotis 1998). Its native equivalents (Arbërorë, Arbëreshë and others) formerly were the self-designation of Albanians in general. In the past Arvanitika had sometimes been described as "Graeco-Albanian" and the like (e.g. Furikis, 1934), although today many Arvanites consider such names offensive, as they identify nationally and ethnically as Greeks and not Albanians.

While linguistic scholarship unanimously describes Arvanitika as a dialect of Albanian many Arvanites are reported to dislike the use of the name "Albanian" to designate it, as it carries the connotation of Albanian nationality and is thus felt to call their Greek identity into question.


O and that "video" was made by an national TV, the best actually not only in Albania but considered to be on Top 3 for professionalism, technology and everything else in Balkan. The TV which the Greek prime ministers, ministers, opposition leaders, minority and every other Greek goes to if he has smth to say. If you do not want to believe it nobody cares, the truth is that that video is true and unlike your Arvanitika organizations who do everything to deny their Albanian heritage, here by the majority of the people if smth is Greek nobody even thinks to say otherwise, unlike this Arvanitika association in this case. The truth is the truth, it doesn't matter if this associations like it or if they don't like it.
 
I'm gonna respond to what i understood and wasn't in Greek.

For starters Arvanits settled in Greece, mainly in Peloponez peninsula in the beggining of the XV century. The one you call Arvanitika, which you say is half greek and half albanian is not Arvanitika, proper Arvanitika but cause of the centuries passed there and the Greek being the main language, especially after Greece Independence and thanks to the Church, whose rituals were done in Greek, even in albania, let alone in Greece till late these people started loosing their mother language or started loaning Greek words. So for gods sake do not take loan words to tell me that Arvanitika isn't Tosk. If you take it like that, then with the shitload of latin and Italian loan words, among other shit load of loan words Albanian should be called smth like Alb-talian or is like sayin' that Albanian is a latin language cause of all the latin origin loan words. Be serious.



As for this part, you can consider this to be archaic Albanian and proves some sound laws in Albanians, that s>sh and k>q and further more tell that this change has happened very late, idk if Taranis would agree but it's mass change started in mass after the 1500 or late 1400.

And just so you know, proper Arvanitika, clean of modern Greek loanings, main difference from Tosk is that Northern Tosk "y" is Arvanitika, Southern Albanian and Tcham "i". Also Arvanitika conserves some archaic forms of Albanian. Like Albanian "gjuhë" is Arvanitika "gljuhë". Which shows that modern Albanian "gj", if after it is a vocal was "glj". The same is with Gheg and modern Albanian. The Gheg "kjoftë" is the modern Albanian "qoftë" (note it ends with ë not e so it's not "meatballs"). Again besides the fact that k>q you again see that if after the modern "q" is a vocal is becomes "kj", while if after is a consonant the "j" gets lost like Arvanitika "falj-na" and Albanian "falna".

And just to make clear, if you wanna know more read [URL"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitika"]this[/URL] if not i'm just gonna put some small paragraphs just to show all your point.






O and that "video" was made by an national TV, the best actually not only in Albania but considered to be on Top 3 for professionalism, technology and everything else in Balkan. The TV which the Greek prime ministers, ministers, opposition leaders, minority and every other Greek goes to if he has smth to say. If you do not want to believe it nobody cares, the truth is that that video is true and unlike your Arvanitika organizations who do everything to deny their Albanian heritage, here by the majority of the people if smth is Greek nobody even thinks to say otherwise, unlike this Arvanitika association in this case. The truth is the truth, it doesn't matter if this associations like it or if they don't like it.

Sorry pal, only by the dates you give
I see that you know nothing about ARbanitika
and the old Languages,

mainly it is the oposite,
Search all good linguists,


the rest is like the claim that E-V13 is founder effect


Arbanites first in peloponese?
only that is a prove that you read and transmit and you do not know nothing
search better,

like Aristeidh kolla,
 
I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions. For "strong nationalist views and highly skewed information" most Greek activists are second to none. I have never been in Albania, but in writing they seem to be less demagogic than the Greeks. I am sure you have not read anything from Albanian historians, and I have read Greek historians. Let's move away from historians and talk about real things, Albanians have not attempted to expel populations and change the character of regions and say oh, this has always been Greek, like Greeks have done throughout Greece. Be considered.

gtcc1, open your ears and listen closely what Taranis says. Try very hard to get off your Albanian horse, fed whole life with strongly nationalistic and highly skewed information, not to say propaganda. Read it, give it a chance to settle, read it again in few days or a month, and see if the puzzle is starting to fit together.
Keep in mind that people from outside have more realistic, indifferent and objective point of view, than people from Albania (in case we discuss Albania, or Greeks in case of Greece), because we are not emotionally attached to the country.
gtcc1 give Taranis a chance to point you in the right direction.
 
I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions.

I can only repeat what LeBrok said: re-read my post, and re-read it carefully. I honestly don't care a damn about any kind of animosities on either side (Greeks or Albanians, really), and I take no side in this discussion.

My opinion is solely based on 130+ years of methodology in linguistics and what the languages themselves tell us.

In fact, I would like to quote myself in the context of what I had to say to a different gentlman on this forum who has a vaguely similar view to yourself concerning Albanian:

Well, I insist on it for two reasons: first, I know the methodology of mainstream linguistics. In particular the comparative method and the concept of sound correspondence, to which the very concept of the Indo-European languages owes its very existence. The second is that I know Albanian well enough to tell you about its sound laws and how Albanian sounds correspond to PIE. In fact, it doesn't matter in this regard if one is talking about Albanian, Celtiberian, Hittite or Tocharian. The rules of the 'game' are always the same.



And well, I have to tell you that these are not Etruscan numerals. Also, well, if you play this by the book, and pick up for the moment that Etruscan was related with Albanian, how do you explain that Etruscan had such a different sound inventory from Albanian? Which Etruscan sounds would correspond to Albanian sounds and vice versa? How do you explain that Albanian has the sounds /b/, /d/, /g/, /ɟ/, /ʒ/, /c/, /ð/, /θ/ etc. while Etruscan hasn't? If you do you homework, and can prove without the inch of a doubt which Etruscan sounds correspond to Albanian sounds and vice versa linguists are going to consider the possibility of a relationship (I'm afraid I don't see that happening, however). Otherwise, Jacob Grimm is going to come and bust you...

Well, actually, let me pick up your examples there. First off, let's take a look at the word for 'two' in various branches of IE:

Baltic:
Lithuanian - Du
Latvian - Divi

Celtic:
Breton - Daou
Irish - Dhá
Welsh - Dau

Germanic:
Danish - To
Dutch - Twee
German - Zwei
Gothic - Twai
Norwegian - To
Swedish - Två

Italic/Romance:
Catalan - Dos
French - Deux
Italian - Due
Latin - Duo
Portuguese - Dois
Romanian - Două
Spanish - Dos

Slavic:
Belorussian - Dva
Bulgarian - Dve
Croatian - Dva
Czech - Dvě
Polish - Dwa
Russian - Dva
Serbian - Dva
Slovak - Dve
Slovenian - Dva
Ukrainian - Dva

Other IE:
Greek - Duo
Sanskrit - Dvi
Hindi - Dō

As you can see, with the notable exception of the Germanic languages, in all language families in the list, the word for 'two' starts with *d. As I stated earlier, the Proto-Indo-Europan word for 'two' is reconstructed as 'dwo-'. Now, regarding the Germanic languages, the word is (with exception of German, but note that German 'z' is pronounced as /ts/) consistently *t. From that, we establish the hypothesis that Germanic *t corresponds with PIE *d. So, if we look at a few other English words, and compare it with cognates in other IE languages (I here take Latin), we can confirm this:

(to) teach - dicere
(to) tame - domare
ten - decem
Tues(-day) - Deus

We can establish that English (and by extension, Germanic) *t corresponds with PIE *d. Now, let's take a look at a few English words and their German cognates:

tame - zahm
tap - zapfen
ten - zehn
(to) tie - ziehen
(to) tear - zerren
to - zu

From that we can establish that German /ts-/ corresponds with English (and other Germanic) /t-/, and by extension that German *ts- corresponds with PIE *d.

What does this mean for Etruscan and Albanian? You claimed that an Etruscan word 'Tu' (of unknown meaning, but here assumed to be 'two') corresponds with Albanian 'Dy'. This would imply a shift from *t > *d. Sure, why not. If the hypothesis was correct, then we would *t in Etruscan to be regularly shifted to *d. You take the next Etruscan word, 'Tris' (assumed to mean 'three') and compared with the Albanian word, which however is 'Tre'. Apparently, suddenly Etruscan *t corresponds with *t in Albanian. Which one is it?

The Neogrammarian hypothesis states that 'sound laws have no exception'. If they seemingly have exceptions, these are governed by their own set of rules. So, what do you think is more likely? That Albanian is descended from Etruscan, or that Albanian is descended from Proto-Indo-European?
 
Sorry pal, only by the dates you give
I see that you know nothing about ARbanitika
and the old Languages,

mainly it is the oposite,
Search all good linguists,


the rest is like the claim that E-V13 is founder effect


Arbanites first in peloponese?
only that is a prove that you read and transmit and you do not know nothing
search better,

like Aristeidh kolla,


What dates? You do realize that I've read this dates not in Internet or any book i bought to learn about this question. I've read and heard this dates on official Albanian school books. If you have smth to complain about the dates you can write a complain letter to the Greek ministry or education or whatever you have there or one directly to the Albanian ministry of science and education and complain, but since this dates are on an official book it means that the Greek Gov, even maybe indirectly agreed to them cause otherwise we by now would have had like at least 5 press conferences by diff greek ministers or vice about this matter.

About the Peloponez, idk if that's the right peninsula name but i mean the peninsula where Athens and it's suburb is located, whatever that peninsula is called, and I said (or i meant) that they settled mainly or first there. They might have been as far am concerned even in Timbuktu but they settled in that peninsula whatever it's name is.

The opposite of what? What's mainly the opposite?

And what do you mean by E-V13 founder? Like founder, the one who founded like an company for example. I'm afraid i do not understand you...
 
What dates? You do realize that I've read this dates not in Internet or any book i bought to learn about this question. I've read and heard this dates on official Albanian school books. If you have smth to complain about the dates you can write a complain letter to the Greek ministry or education or whatever you have there or one directly to the Albanian ministry of science and education and complain, but since this dates are on an official book it means that the Greek Gov, even maybe indirectly agreed to them cause otherwise we by now would have had like at least 5 press conferences by diff greek ministers or vice about this matter.

About the Peloponez, idk if that's the right peninsula name but i mean the peninsula where Athens and it's suburb is located, whatever that peninsula is called, and I said (or i meant) that they settled mainly or first there. They might have been as far am concerned even in Timbuktu but they settled in that peninsula whatever it's name is.

The opposite of what? What's mainly the opposite?

And what do you mean by E-V13 founder? Like founder, the one who founded like an company for example. I'm afraid i do not understand you...


In this forum
I have many posts about the subject, I am not going to repeat them

search better All Arbanites clubs and organizations and the official and you understand,
All exept one which is Albanian and claim them shelves as Arbanites, you realize who,
the same think you claim the same say all Albanians but non search the Data
the kangoure gitoni are not in peloponese but in Lefktra, in 1200-1300 about
from there under the bless of Venice they moved to peloponese when Nayplio pass under Venice command, and from there majority left
these are the kangoures, about 60 000
the others the Klefts arbanites like suliotes and rest are about 1700 and after when Albanians hunt them from berat to Arta and more south to mesologgi, Ali pasha case
a third group mainly Arbanto-Vlachs came after the Arnauts lute and burn down the Moschopolis.
I think you better read the story of ARbanites better, as also their language,
especially the Kleft-Arbanites which are about 50 000 about,
 
I think you guys have a problem accepting or considering various opinions. For "strong nationalist views and highly skewed information" most Greek activists are second to none. I have never been in Albania, but in writing they seem to be less demagogic than the Greeks. I am sure you have not read anything from Albanian historians, and I have read Greek historians. Let's move away from historians and talk about real things, Albanians have not attempted to expel populations and change the character of regions and say oh, this has always been Greek, like Greeks have done throughout Greece. Be considered.

Well, let's skip the Greeks and other bordering countries that might have had bad history with Albania. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to rest of people from 200 other countries around this planet who didn't have emotional connection with Albania. I even singled out german individual Taranis as one to give you objective opinion, and I must say, very educated in linguistics, who also spent his time analyzing Albanian language.

As for myself, I'm polish with no ties to Albania. I personally and briefly knew only one Albanian, and he was one of best tradesmen working on my house. I have no reason to undermine and derogate Albanians and their language.

If you think that we, in this context, will disregard all Albanian's post about Albanian language, I must tell you that this is not true. I, and I'm sure Taranis too, have a big respect to Endri and his/her posts on this subject. Even though he/she is Albanian, we find his/her post very objective and insightful.

Remember, we are not your enemy. We just love these subjects and are trying to find the light, or something resembling the truth, in dark basements of history of human kind. Well, maybe except our friend Yetos, the big greek nationalist, always swimming against the current, and never agreeing with anyone. :grin: (Did I hear it on german tv, or was it from thread "You were too long in Greece when...."?)
 
Well, let's skip the Greeks and other bordering countries that might have had bad history with Albania. I thought it was obvious that I was referring to rest of people from 200 other countries around this planet who didn't have emotional connection with Albania. I even singled out german individual Taranis as one to give you objective opinion, and I must say, very educated in linguistics, who also spent his time analyzing Albanian language.

As for myself, I'm polish with no ties to Albania. I personally and briefly knew only one Albanian, and he was one of best tradesmen working on my house. I have no reason to undermine and derogate Albanians and their language.

If you think that we, in this context, will disregard all Albanian's post about Albanian language, I must tell you that this is not true. I, and I'm sure Taranis too, have a big respect to Endri and his/her posts on this subject. Even though he/she is Albanian, we find his/her post very objective and insightful.

Remember, we are not your enemy. We just love these subjects and are trying to find the light, or something resembling the truth, in dark basements of history of human kind. Well, maybe except our friend Yetos, the big greek nationalist, always swimming against the current, and never agreeing with anyone. :grin: (Did I hear it on german tv, or was it from thread "You were too long in Greece when...."?)


good point LeBrok
South Balkanic people (including me) are 'war-head' or 'warm-head'.
and many times we follow fanatics who are pushing 'news' and paid by goverments,
(remember Nazi and Goebels)

just think that after crisis, Greek 'scientists' prove that Greeks found New Zealand before Maori
same is in every Balkanic country,
the problem is that some are pushing ideas like the above, the case of kangoure gitoni is a wrong tranmission to those who did not know, by officials
for example all say one and other, but who knows that dictator Pagkalos was one of them, as also prime ministers in the past, and they are mostly the richest among Atheneans,
on the other hand nobody speaks about Ismail Vlore and his newspaper etc

the problem in Balkans is that in order to keep people stop talking about their life, their status, economics, all day tv shows semi-porn, and 'scientists' who spread buls....
and people believe them.

no need to put more examples, of my talk,
when linguists say that Albanian has a small connection with Thracian, the next day one 'scientist' will say Thracian were Albanians, or Makedonians were Slavs, or Bulgars were Iranians, or Turkish is autochthonus
I even heard by someone that Alexander reach Yunan in china cause Greece in Semitic languages is Yunan-istan
 
In this forum
I have many posts about the subject, I am not going to repeat them

search better All Arbanites clubs and organizations and the official and you understand,
All exept one which is Albanian and claim them shelves as Arbanites, you realize who,
the same think you claim the same say all Albanians but non search the Data
the kangoure gitoni are not in peloponese but in Lefktra, in 1200-1300 about
from there under the bless of Venice they moved to peloponese when Nayplio pass under Venice command, and from there majority left
these are the kangoures, about 60 000
the others the Klefts arbanites like suliotes and rest are about 1700 and after when Albanians hunt them from berat to Arta and more south to mesologgi, Ali pasha case
a third group mainly Arbanto-Vlachs came after the Arnauts lute and burn down the Moschopolis.
I think you better read the story of ARbanites better, as also their language,
especially the Kleft-Arbanites which are about 50 000 about,

Just so i make sure...what are you tryin' to prove? That Arvanites are not Albanian (by origin) or that they do not speak an Albanian sub dialect, or both?
 
Just so i make sure...what are you tryin' to prove? That Arvanites are not Albanian (by origin) or that they do not speak an Albanian sub dialect, or both?


read carefull what I am writing,

and start understand who is Arbanites and about whom you you talking,
All orthodox Albanians are not Arbanites, neither all Albanians are Arbanites neither All Arbanites are Albanians,

Deutsch is German but German does not mean Deutsch

make clear about who ARbanites you are Speaking.


the kangoures (Arbanites of Leyktra Athens etc)
are from around Lake Skodra North Albania
they are almost same with Arberesh,
they moved to Greece after a disease (or a massacre) to Help the Latin rulers of AThens after their invitation, they settled in North of Athens around Theba, and from there split,
they came at about 1240-1300 (need to search to tell you the exact year)
their dialect is old Albanian Speakers mainly,

You probably speak about them,
but these are not the only one Arbanites but 1/3 of what is called Arbanites. I gave you estimation about 60 000 with a possible mistake of 10-15%

about the rest of Arbanites is another story, which is different to every case and family,

All Arbanites are from area that is today Albania,
But that does not mean that all Arbanites are Albanians,

it is like the exchange of population of '23 among Greeks and Turks, a case that affected a few Chamerian families,

in '23 came from minor Asia Turkey hundreds thousands o million peoples
from some areas it was prohibited to speak Greek, so they spoke Turk, (turkophones) what that means? that they all were Turks? no
I will not expand more to that,

so what I am saying is that Arbanites means Albanophones,
part of them like Kangoures are from North Albania, and by what i read in some net pages and Dienekes they share same genetic with Arberesh with different autosomal due to 800 years living in Greece, But what were they? their genetic show big concentration of I Hg by what i can remember,
Now if they are Albanians or Greeks or Illyrians or Thracians?
they just claim that they are from today Albania, Arbanitika dialect Speaking.
that is a fact that nobody can deny, neither Greek neither Albanian Neither Slav.

the Arbanto-Vlachs mainly from Moschopolis is another case, they are consider and claim them shelves as Aromani and their language is mainly Latin Aromani with Albanian elements.

The Kleft-Arbanites is last case,
in this case each family or village has its own history, and i read many due to relatives of mine,


All the above are considered Arbanites, about which you are talking?
 
Citation from:http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html

Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies.
 
one more citation:
Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism (Hamp, 1978; Tsitsipis, 1983).

And a big Thanks to Italy :)
 
Citation from:http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html

Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies.

First. Pomaks is a special case from 1923, I remind you the Poamak Strungle to Join and aceepted by Greek in 50-60 against Bulgaria of Zivkov,

Second Arbanites as minority is to them,
Arbanites share heritage of Greek national Heroes, of Greek Big politician prime minister and of Greek modern Scientists,
Now if you understand the term Arbanites as it given the rest is up to you,
I guess we don't disagree about my post, cause you know it is True, but then with what?
I think your problem is
why in today Greece that the last 15 years moved 1,500 000 Albanians the Greek does recogn Albanians as a minority and opens school to them?
the answer is that after 1912 and the liberty of Albania and its form as a state, the terminology Arbanites stop, all the rest are Albanians who migrate, not minority.

so all ALbanians that enter Greece after 1912 are considered as Greeks-North Epirotans or Albanians by nation,

Third Aromani does means Romanian
I wonder the Aromani in Albania do you consider them as Romanians?
it is another case the Latin Speakers of Balkans and another the Romanians of Balkans,
cause both Speak Latin does not mean that they are Romanians,
Aromani have high concentrations of R1b of Roman-Italian times of Roman empire.

4rth if you believe that Makedonians are Slavs then no need to discuss further,

even in genetic of M458 allthough the old theory is making them Slavs, the modern is denying that they are Slavs, since they older than the R1a which is considered Scythian -Sarmatian,
Soon R1a M458 will a mark of older than Slavic populations, with a possibility to be Anatolian origin, not Asian-Sibir,
just wait genetic to speak more in few years,
 
one more citation:
Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism (Hamp, 1978; Tsitsipis, 1983).

And a big Thanks to Italy
smiling.gif


you are talking about Kangoure Arbanitika,
I inform you that Kangoures are not minority but equals, the situation comes every 30 in discuss among them,
it is up to them, and only up to them to say what they want,

Kangoures had and have big places in the army and in govermant, in which country happens that?


Kangoures are not regognised as Albanian minority, no matter Albania goverment wants to, but as a Greek minority.
if they want to save their language it is up to them, and believe me they do in their own clubs and organisations, as their language-dialect exist for >800 years in Greece, so all efforts of Albanians to open Albanian schools in Greece are just an effort to use Greek money to be spend so Albanians in Greece learn Albanian, and not about Arbanites.

if Albania wants to open schools in Greece about Albanian language it is up to them,
let them spend the money as Greece does in Foreign lands like Germany Australia Russia USA etc,

YOU CAN NOT FORCE GREECE TO SPEND MONEY SO THAT ALBANIANS THAT CAME AT '97 after the pyramid collapse LEARN ALBANIAN,
FORCE ALBANIAN GOVERMENT TO SPEND MONEY TO BUILD SCHOOLS FOR THE ALBANIAN IMMIGRANTS


the kangourika language-dialect today is spoken by >35 000 to 50 000 after a population of about 60 000, how they manage? after 200 Greek state and more than 800 years in greece if they are hunt by Greeks as you say?
cause that is a myth, they have their own schools, their own teachers and professors and magazines and even a search and develop area in the university of Athens,
the rest are just political games.



When Albania pay money so that North Epirotans learn Greek,
When Albania spend money so that Aromani of Albania learn their Latin Language,
then Speak about the others, of anti-minority policy.

Same is with Turkey,
When it opens the old Greek scools of Con/polis when the big school of Chalke opens again then we might speak again,

as about Fyrom? no comment,
Pan-Slavism at its maximum.

 

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