Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)

This is precious! What kind of argument are you making? Just because you don't understand genetics, genetics is wrong or it doesn't count? It is what it is, it is true, and it proves your assumptions wrong, either you like or not, or either you understand it or not. Some people don't understand astronomy but regardless Earth still goes around Sun, although by naked eye Sun orbits the Earth.
Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history.

Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?

Look at this map of genetic heritage. It shows level of genes inherited from Early European Farmers who settled Balkans 10 thousand years ago. Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and even Turkey shows level of 70-80%. We know that in Neolithic this level was reaching close to 100% in South Europe. 70% that's pretty high level of genetic continuity through 10 thousand years, don't you think?
Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png

And this are the pelasgian right?
You say:
"Can you separate group of Slavs and show them to us? Of course not, being Slav is a cultural concept and not genetic heritage. Balkan Slavs belong to Balkan's genetic pool and are closer genetically to Albanians and Greeks than to other Slavs from North. "
I dont told that Illyrians,i.e. Albanians are replaced by South Slavs, they mixed in the today territory of ex-Yugoslavia, it`s an historical fact.
I am telling that according to historical fact ancient greeks are replaced by slavs and after the job was finished by albanians. And for this reason you can find similarity between this populations.you call cousins, we call them arvaniti people, using an expression of arberesh of Italy, Gjaku i humbur i Arberit, Lost blod of Arber.This is officaly position of the albanians scholars. Your genetic theories are close with albanian nationalist theories.

BTW, i made you an answer:What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
Thank you.
 
And this are the pelasgian right?
You say:
"Can you separate group of Slavs and show them to us? Of course not, being Slav is a cultural concept and not genetic heritage. Balkan Slavs belong to Balkan's genetic pool and are closer genetically to Albanians and Greeks than to other Slavs from North. "
I dont told that Illyrians,i.e. Albanians are replaced by South Slavs, they mixed in the today territory of ex-Yugoslavia, it`s an historical fact.
I am telling that according to historical fact ancient greeks are replaced by slavs and after the job was finished by albanians. And for this reason you can find similarity between this populations.you call cousins, we call them arvaniti people, using an expression of arberesh of Italy, Gjaku i humbur i Arberit, Lost blod of Arber.This is officaly position of the albanians scholars. Your genetic theories are close with albanian nationalist theories.

BTW, i made you an answer:What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
Thank you.


THIS MAN TELL NICE JOKES,


he is Albanian, and he say to us, that this nation is so stupid, that they make a revolt, and change the language just for what? for an expirement of Great powers,
and not only this they also learn Greek in not free areas, like Makedonia with possibility they will liberate after 100 years.


YO BARDYLIC, YOU STILL ANSWER NO QUESTION,


FOR YOUR INFORMATION I WILL POST AN AUTOSOMAL MAP NAMED PC4 WHICH IS TRADE MARK OF GREEKS, GREEK COLONISATION, AND GENERALLY GREEK EXPANSION.

pc4.jpg


an old work, from 1996 based on blood and some kind of resist
 
THIS MAN TELL NICE JOKES,


he is Albanian, and he say to us, that this nation is so stupid, that they make a revolt, and change the language just for what? for an expirement of Great powers,
and not only this they also learn Greek in not free areas, like Makedonia with possibility they will liberate after 100 years.


YO BARDYLIC, YOU STILL ANSWER NO QUESTION,


FOR YOUR INFORMATION I WILL POST AN AUTOSOMAL MAP NAMED PC4 WHICH IS TRADE MARK OF GREEKS, GREEK COLONISATION, AND GENERALLY GREEK EXPANSION.

pc4.jpg


an old work, from 1996 based on blood and some kind of resist

DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF
this are your words, I do not have anything else to add.
 
DON'T WAIT TO RESPECT YOU IF YOU DON'T RESPECT YOUR SHELF
this are your words, I do not have anything else to add.

I do not want you to respect me,
I want you to respect your self,
and your people.

you give incomplete data,
you post data that deny your previous,
you make your people look like silly with what you post.
You know Greek but you pretend you don't.
and finally you don't answer.
also you deny genetics.

you do not discus or make dialogue, you simply bomb with crup the forum.
 
This is precious! What kind of argument are you making? Just because you don't understand genetics, genetics is wrong or it doesn't count? It is what it is, it is true, and it proves your assumptions wrong, either you like or not, or either you understand it or not. Some people don't understand astronomy but regardless Earth still goes around Sun, although by naked eye Sun orbits the Earth.
Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history.

Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?

Look at this map of genetic heritage. It shows level of genes inherited from Early European Farmers who settled Balkans 10 thousand years ago. Greece, Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria and even Turkey shows level of 70-80%. We know that in Neolithic this level was reaching close to 100% in South Europe. 70% that's pretty high level of genetic continuity through 10 thousand years, don't you think?
Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png

You say:
Furthermore it seems like you have anti greek agenda. You have to be right in spite of scientific evidence. Perhaps instead of reciting your mantra and few paragraphs of ancient historians, over and over again, use your precious time to learn some genetics or at listen what experts in this field discovered. Population genetics is a powerful tool and helps us decipher many blank pages of history.
I have not any anti greek agenda. I accuse you that you the use maps for certain agenda.
About the South Slavs:
I told that the albanians are not replaced by the slavs. How these happened?
This document is let`s call an hitparade of the nation in year 1000-1018. Evrybody let find his nation:
[h=3]1000 - 1018
Anonymous:
Fragment on the Origins of Nations[/h]
What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the eleventh century. It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers.
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), Arbanasi (Albanians), Croatians, Hizi, Germans.
Source: [Extract from: Radoslav Grujic: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3.]

Many people are missing in the text. Where are the FYR Macedonians, Serbs? They are your genetic maps.
Another document:

[h=3]1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage[/h] The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1). The author was at any rate a Dominican priest and Latin prelate in the Byzantine Empire and Armenia, whose aim was to persuade the Catholic armies under Philip VI of Valois (r. 1328-1350) to embark upon a holy crusade and conquer Serbian-occupied Albania, thus restoring the Catholic Church to its former power there and taking revenge upon the Orthodox Greeks for having destroyed the Latin Empire of Constantinople. In the text, the author makes reference to the Albanians as the majority population in Albania. It is also in the 'Directorium' that a much-quoted phrase about the existence of books in Albania occurs: 'licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris' (The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin, however they use Latin letters in all their books).
On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered
I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.
The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins. The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.
One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors. Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.
Source: [Extract from: Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie, Paris 1906, p. 478 485.]

The author speaks here for a territory under the rule of the King of Serbia. In this area cities are inhabited by Latins and the entire territory is inhabited by Albanians. About the city I can bring doccuments that prove that in the coastal cities had a certain amount Albanian inhabitants. All this inhabitants “suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders”.
Given your geographical knowledge can you tell me the said territory in which is of modern states is located?
We know that Serbians Tsar have used all means to assimilate the Albanians:

[h=4]1909
Edith Durham:
In the Debatable Lands[/h]
The celebrated Canon of Tsar Stefan Dushan throws light on the means employed to crush the conquered, when Great Servia was at its greatest. "Tsar Dushan, the Macedonian, Autocrat of Servia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, and other countries... Laws established by the grace of God in the year 1349 at a meeting of the Patriarchs, etc.
Law 6. As to the Latin heresy, and those that draw true believers to its faith. The ecclesiastical authorities must strive to convert such to the true faith. If such a one will not be converted... he shall be punished by death. The Orthodox Tsar must eradicate all heresy from his state. The property of all such as refuse conversion shall be confiscated... Heretical priests of other communions who try to make proselytes will be sent to the mines or expelled from the country. Heretical churches will be consecrated and opened for priests of the Orthodox faith.
Law 8. If a Latin priest be found trying to convert a Christian to the Latin faith he shall be punished by death.
Law 10. If a heretic be found dwelling with Christians, he shall be marked on the face and expelled. Any sheltering him shall be treated the same way."
It appears also that certain pagan rites were still observed. Law 45 enacts that: "If there be heretics that burn the bodies of the dead, or dig them up for the purpose of burning them, the village where this takes place is to pay a fine, and the criminals be handed over to justice."
The fact that the whole 'village' is fined (just as the whole 'house' is excommunicated to-day, for the sin of concubinage with a sister-in-law), indicates that the whole village, if not wholly pagan, had pagan sympathies.
But history shows that the Latins in the districts we are considering must have been mainly Albanians. Persecution was therefore not merely religious but racial. And that special legislation was needed against the Latins, and the express mention of what is to be done with their churches, tends to show that even in the strongest Servian days they were numerous enough to have to be reckoned with as a danger. The Serb strove to stamp out - or, shall we say, Slavise - the Albanian.
Source: [Edith Durham, High Albania (London: Edward Arnold 1909, reprint London: Phoenix Press, 2000), p. 232-300.]
BTW for your curiosity there is an theory that Nemanjić dynasty were Albanian.
The WWI:
[h=4]1913
Leo Freundlich:
Albania's Golgotha:
Indictment of the Exterminators of the Albanian People[/h]
On the eastern banks of the Adriatic, a mere three days journey from Vienna, live an autochthonous people who for centuries have been fighting for their freedom and independence against enemies and oppressors of all types. This nation has clung steadfast to its roots through countless wars and the cataclysms of history. Neither the great migrations nor wars with the Serbs, the Turks and other invaders have hindered the Albanians from maintaining their nationality, their language, and the purity and originality of their customs.
The history of this nation is an unbroken chain of bloody battles against violent oppressors, but not even the most unspeakable of atrocities have managed to annihilate this people. Intellectual life has flourished among the Albanians even though their oppressors endeavoured to cut off all cultural development at the root. This nation produced great generals and men of state for the Ottoman Empire. Albanians were among the best judges in Turkey and among the greatest authors of Turkish literature. Almost all the merchants of Montenegro were Albanian, as were many fine businessmen in the major cities of Romania. The Albanians played an important role in Italy, too. Crispi was one of them. Greece's bravest soldiers were of Albanian blood.
In the wake of the cataclysms wrought by the Balkan War, the ancient dream of freedom and independence for this people is now becoming a reality. The Great Powers of Europe have decided to grant Albania its national autonomy.

But the Serbian thirst for conquest has now found a means of destroying the fair dream of this courageous and freedom-loving people before it can be realized. Serbian troops have invaded Albania with fire and sword. And if Albania cannot be conquered, then at least the Albanian people can be exterminated. This is the solution they propose.
* * *
On 18 October 1912, King Peter of Serbia issued a declaration 'To the Serbian People', proclaiming:
"The Turkish governments showed no interest in their duties towards their citizens and turned a deaf ear to all complaints and suggestions. Things got so far out of hand that no one was satisfied with the situation in Turkey in Europe. It became unbearable for the Serbs, the Greeks and for the Albanians, too.
By the grace of God, I have therefore ordered my brave army to join in the Holy War to free our brethren and to ensure a better future.
In Old Serbia, my army will meet not only upon Christian Serbs, but also upon Moslem Serbs, who are equally dear to us, and in addition to them, upon Christian and Moslem Albanians with whom our people have shared joy and sorrow for thirteen centuries now. To all of them we bring freedom, brotherhood and equality."
How have the Serbs understood the declaration of their monarch, which is not even half a year old?
The Serbs came to Albania not as liberators but as exterminators of the Albanian people. The Ambassadors' Conference in London proposed drawing the borders of Albania according to ethnic and religious statistics to be gathered on site by a commission. The Serbs have hastened to prepare the statistics for them with machine guns, rifles and bayonets. They have committed unspeakable atrocities. The shock and outrage produced by these crimes are outdone only by the sense of sorrow that such vile deeds could be committed in Europe, not far from the great centres of western culture, in this twentieth century. Our sorrow is made all the heavier by the fact that, despite the reports which have been cabled home for months now by the journalists of many nations, and despite the impassioned indictment launched to the world by Pierre Loti, nothing has been done to put an end to the killings.
A courageous people full of character is being crucified before the eyes of the world and Europe, civilized Christian Europe, remains silent!
Tens of thousands of defenceless people are being massacred, women are being raped, old people and children strangled, hundreds of villages burnt to the ground, priests slaughtered.
And Europe remains silent!
The Serbian Thirst for Blood
The special correspondent of the Daily Telegraph reported the following: All the horrors of history have been outdone by the atrocious conduct of the troops of General Jankovic. On their march through Albania, the Serbs have treacherously slaughtered not only armed Albanians, but in their savagery even unarmed individuals - old people, women, children and babies at their mother's breasts.
Drunk with victory, Serbian officers have proclaimed that the only way of pacifying Albania is to exterminate the Albanians. They slaughtered 3,000 people in the region between Kumanova / Kumanovo and Skopje alone. 5,000 Albanians were murdered by the Serbs in the Prishtina area. These people did not die with honour on the battlefield, but were slain in a series of gruesome raids. The Serbian soldiers have found new methods of butchery to satisfy their thirst for blood. Houses were set on fire in several villages and the inhabitants slaughtered like rats when they tried to flee the flames. The men were slain before the eyes of their wives and children. The wretched women were then forced to look on as their children were literally hacked to pieces.
Executions were a daily entertainment for the Serbian soldiers. All inhabitants who had been found with weapons in their homes were executed. They were either shot or hanged. Up to thirty-six executions took place a day. How strange it is that the Serbian nationalists living in Hungary should complain about massacres in Albania. Mr Tomic, the former secretary to the Serbian Prime Minister Pašic, reported on his trip from Prizren to Peja / Pec that on both sides of the road he saw nothing but the remnants of burnt-out villages which had been razed to the ground.
The roads were lined with gallows from which the bodies of Albanians were hanging. The road to Gjakova / Djakovica had become a Boulevard of Gibbets.
The Belgrade newspapers reported quite without shame on the heineous atrocities of the Serbs. When Colonel Osbic's regiment took Prizren, he commanded his compatriots, "Kill!" When his order was heard, so the Belgrade papers report, "the Serbian soldiers stormed into homes and slaughtered every human being they could lay their hands on."
The Daily Telegraph then gives the authentic statement of an Albanian notable: Anyone who denounces an Albanian to the Serbs can be sure that the Albanian will be executed. There were people who owed money to Moslem Albanians. They went and denounced them to the Serbs as traitors. The wretched Albanians were immediately hanged and the informers later found ways of acquiring the home and land of their victims for a ridiculously low price.
In Skopje, unarmed Albanians were simply shot and killed by Serbian officers. If even a hunting knife was found in a home, its owner was executed.
In Ferizaj / Uroševac, the Serbian commander invited Albanian fugitives to return to their home and surrender their weapons. When over four hundred of them did return, they were slaughtered. There were no more than a dozen Moslem families left alive in Ferizaj / Uroševac. The war correspondent of the Messaggero has confirmed this report.
In Pana, the Serbs killed their prisoners, in Varosh / Varoš and Prishtina the population was literally decimated. Serbian officers admitted themselves that they were on the 'hunt' for Albanians, and one of them boasted having killed nine Albanians in one day with his own hands.
A doctor working for the Red Cross reported, according to the same source: The Serbs have been massacring throughout Albania with no sign of mercy. Neither women nor children nor old people have been spared. I have seen villages burning in Old Serbia every day. Near Kratovo, General Stefanovic had hundreds of prisoners lined up in two rows and machine gunned down. General Živkovic had 850 Albanian notables put to death in Senica because they had offered resistance.
The Albanische Korrespondenz reported from Trieste on 12 March: A letter from Kruja near Durrës (Durazzo) dated 27 February of this year was read out at the Albanian congress here. It read: All the buildings as well as the villas of Mashar Bey and Fuad Bey (n.b. who were taking part in the congress at the time) have been burnt to the ground. Ali Lam Osmani's brother was caught by the Serbs in Vinjoll near Kruja, buried to his thighs in the earth, and then shot. The letter concludes with the words: We shall never see one another again. Farewell until we meet in the other world!

The article is very long but I want to show you an “curiosity”:
The Serbs Are Also Murdering Christians
On 20 March, the Reichspost published a letter from Albania, reading as follows:
The parish priest of the sanctuary of Cernagora or Setnica, Don Tommaso, was robbed by Serbian soldiers of all the funds belonging to the church. The soldiers drew their bayonets, forced him to open the safe and took out all the money belonging to the pilgrimage site.
The parish priest of Gjakova / Djakovica was threatened with death. He was told, "Either you give up your links with the Austrian protectorate or we will roast your brains!" The courageous reaction of the priest blew the wind out of their sails, however.
For three months now, the Serbs have been hindering the parish priest of Ferizaj / Uroševac in his freedom to exercise his office. They have been jailing anyone who talks to him or who goes to mass or confession. The same thing has happened to two priests from Prizren.
All imaginable pressure has been exerted against the Catholics of Janjeva / Janjevo (four hundred families, almost all of whom are ethnic Slavs) to convert to the schismatic church.
For hundreds of years now, about 8,000 Catholics, so-called Laramans or secret Catholics, have been living in this archdiocese. Because of Turkish persecution, they did not profess their faith openly. When the Serbs arrived, several hundred of these Laramans wanted to declare openly that they were Catholic. When a representative of the new government got word of this, they were ordered, "Either Moslem or Orthodox. Not Catholic!"
Near the sanctuary of Letnica is the village of Shashare (ninety families, all of them Catholic). Serbian soldiers took the village, assembled the men on a field and tied them up with ropes. They then looted the homes and brutally raped the women and girls.
Countless Albanian Catholics have been murdered. In Ponoshec / Ponoševac, for instance, thirty men were slaughtered one day while they were going about their business in the village. Their only crime was to admit that they were Albanian Catholics.
Near Zhur / Žur, entire families of innocent Catholic tribesmen who had come down to Prizren to purchase salt, oil, sugar etc. were treacherously murdered on their way. The same thing happened near Gjakova / Djakovica where a further seventy Catholics from the parish of Nikaj were slaughtered. The Catholics are persecuted, whereas the native Orthodox are left alone.
In the vicinity of Dibër / Debar and Monastir / Bitola, as well as in Kosovo, many villages have now been burnt to the ground. The looting is unspeakable. It is sufficient to note that sheep are now being sold at a price of two francs each because nobody knows what to do with them all. So many have been stolen from the Albanians by the Serbs and Montenegrins.
They are now trying to stop us from speaking Albanian. A number of schools teaching Albanian have already been closed down.
The letter ends with the words, "May God have mercy upon us, and may Europe come and save us. Otherwise we are lost!"
Slaughtered Priests
On 20 March, the Neue Freie Presse reported: On 7 March, the soldateska joined fanatic Orthodox priests in and around Gjakova / Djakovica to forcefully convert the Catholic population to the Orthodox faith. About 300 persons, men, women and children, among whom Pater Angelus Palic, were bound with ropes and forced under threat of death to convert. An Orthodox priest pointed to the soldiers standing by with their rifles in hand and said, "Either you sign the declaration that you have converted to the one true faith or these soldiers of God will send your souls to hell."
All the prisoners then signed the forms prepared for them which contained a declaration of conversion to the Orthodox faith. Pater Angelus was the last. He was the only one of them who had the strength, in a calm and dignified manner, to refuse to give up his faith. Pater Angelus stood by his word, even when ordered three times to convert and even when entreated by the other forcefully converted Catholics. The result was one of the most appalling scenes imaginable in twentieth-century Europe.
After a sign from the Orthodox priest, the soldiers fell upon the Franciscan, ripped off his tunic and began beating him with the butts of their rifles. Pater Angelus collapsed after several of his bones and ribs had been fractured. At this moment, the Orthodox priest stopped the soldiers and asked him if he was now willing to convert. Again he shook his head and said placidly, "No, I will not abandon my faith and break my oath." Pater Angelus was beaten with the rifle butts again until one of the soldiers plunged a bayonet through the priest's lungs and put an end to his suffering.
In today FYROM live according to wikipedia 2,022,547 -2002 census

Well 64.2% are 1.298.475 “Macedonian” of which 300.000 are Albanian Christian orthodox.
25% of population or 509.681 are Albanian musslim.
The Orthodox Albanians of FYROM have demanded that religious services are conducted in Albanian. Both churches are discussing this thing.
And to close a document and finished:
The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe, live on a barren limestone mountain upland, where they, for centuries, succeeded in maintaining their Christianity and their freedom while surrounded by the Turks. They, like the northern Albanians, preserve their old exog- amous clan organization, and their clan loyalties and feuds. They are linguistically Serbs, but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking, the only real differences being those of language and religion. [h=1]Source: Stevens Coon Carleton The Races Of Europe page 591[/h]
Now do you understand why your maps show that South Slavs are similar with the Albanian.
Can we tell today that Serbian, Croatian, Montenegrin are descendants of Illyrians, because slavs bloger have see your maps? Can we say the same about FYROM slavs that they are descendants of Alexander The Great? Because starting from your maps they are going to explain us that are, thousands of slavic words in to the texts of Homer.
Albert Einstein was right.
For your curiosity do you know that King Zog of Albanian save the life to Albert Einstein?
In history is a process that is called ASSIMILATION, don’t forget it and your maps don`t show us how this process has occurred. And don`t tell us that this procces still continue in the slavic territory against orthodox and catholic albanian.
Maybe the correct genetic maps can explain us some procces, but can not replace the HISTORY.
Thank You.

P.S.
I insist: What are the features that define that a certain group of people constitute a nation?
 
And don`t tell us that this procces still continue in the slavic territory against orthodox and catholic albanian.
Sorry for my english has an error correct is:





this procces still continue in the slavic territory against orthodox and catholic albanian.
 
I do not want you to respect me,
I want you to respect your self,
and your people.

you give incomplete data,
you post data that deny your previous,
you make your people look like silly with what you post.
You know Greek but you pretend you don't.
and finally you don't answer.
also you deny genetics.

you do not discus or make dialogue, you simply bomb with crup the forum.


1-I do not want you to respect me




I am an educated man


2-I want you to respect your self, and your people.
About you read what you say about the citizens of your country:
04-04-12, 13:08 post: #60 page 3 http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26965-Albanians-(OFFTOPIC-Macedonians)/page3

3-you give incomplete data,
All my data are complete, and never i used albanian sources, don`t forget we have very good scholars, using a term from football, i am playing at your stadium.

4-you post data that deny your previous,Opposite, confirm.
5-you make your people look like silly with what you post.




I am an PROUD ALBANIAN.
6-You know Greek but you pretend you don't.
I can understand a little greek and english. I apologizing to the readers for my language mistakes.
7-and finally you don't answer.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
8-also you deny genetics.
Fk of genetics. I am speaking about history.
9-you do not discus or make dialogue, you simply bomb with crup the forum.
I am trying to make an dialog but you are an uneducated man.
A council: Try to have much more respect for your SHELF.
 
1-I do not want you to respect me




I am an educated man


2-I want you to respect your self, and your people.
About you read what you say about the citizens of your country:
04-04-12, 13:08 post: #60 page 3 http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26965-Albanians-(OFFTOPIC-Macedonians)/page3

3-you give incomplete data,
All my data are complete, and never i used albanian sources, don`t forget we have very good scholars, using a term from football, i am playing at your stadium.

4-you post data that deny your previous,Opposite, confirm.
5-you make your people look like silly with what you post.




I am an PROUD ALBANIAN.
6-You know Greek but you pretend you don't.
I can understand a little greek and english. I apologizing to the readers for my language mistakes.
7-and finally you don't answer.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
8-also you deny genetics.
Fk of genetics. I am speaking about history.
9-you do not discus or make dialogue, you simply bomb with crup the forum.
I am trying to make an dialog but you are an uneducated man.
A council: Try to have much more respect for your SHELF.

ΑΔΙΟΡΘΩΤΟΣ
 
HAHAHAHA
WELL YOU DO UNDERSTAND VERY WELL TURK.




You tell turk to me? Interesting:


H.RES.522 -- Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. (Introduced in House - IH)
HRES 522 IH
109th CONGRESS​
1st Session​
H. RES. 522
Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
[h=3]October 27, 2005[/h] Mr. ROHRABACHER (for himself and Mr. LANTOS) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on International Relations

RESOLUTION
Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation.
Whereas 600 years ago, in 1405 AD, in the White Castle of Kruja (formerly Croya), Albania, Gjergj Castrioti was born;
Whereas at the age of 17 his father reluctantly left him with the Ottoman Turkish Sultan as a condition of peace;
Whereas Castrioti excelled in studying history and classical languages and at an early age reached the rank of General in the Ottoman Turkish Army;
Whereas Castrioti's military genius and unique leadership qualities were praised by Sultan Murad, who called him Iskander Bey (now Scanderbeg), after Alexander the Great;
Whereas while being away from his native Albanian lands, Castrioti never forgot his Albanian heritage and people;
Whereas on October 28, 1443, after much soul-searching and in utmost secrecy, Castrioti finally decided to return home and liberate the Albanian people from Ottoman domination;
Whereas the Battle of Nish on November 10, 1443, between Ottoman troops and the Hungarian Army (led by another freedom-fighter, Janos Hunyadi), gave Scanderbeg the perfect opportunity to accomplish his plan of return;
Whereas on November 28, 1443, Scanderbeg returned to his native town of Kruja and raised again his flag with the double-headed eagle over the White Castle there, to the enthusiastic celebration of his people, an historical moment vividly described by the American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow in his lengthy epic poem, `Scanderbeg';
Whereas Scanderbeg thereafter successfully defended the Albanian people against countless attacks by the Ottoman Empire, the largest army of the period, including in 1450 the onslaught of more than 150,000 Ottoman troops led by Sultan Murad, who was ultimately defeated by vastly outnumbered Albanian foot soldiers and cavalry led by Scanderbeg at the Castle of Kruja in a bloody Homeric struggle;
Whereas Murad's son, Sultan Mehmed, conquered Constantinople in 1453, thus ending the Byzantine period, but was unable in 1466 and 1467 to conquer Albania, even though he commanded the largest army of the time, including up to 300,000 foot soldiers and horsemen;
Whereas during 1460 and 1461 Gjergj Castrioti Scanderbeg brought his army to southern Italy for the second time to defend his ally, King Alphonse of Naples, against the invasion of the Lombards of southern France;
Whereas Gjergj Castrioti united the Albanian people and established a free state of Albania, which endured for 25 years;
Whereas according to Major General James Wolfe, commander of the British army at Quebec, `Scanderbeg . . . excels all officers, ancient and modern, in the conduct of a small defensive army . . ..'; and, according to noted British historian Edward Gibbon, `the enthusiasm of chivalry and religion has ranked the Albanian prince with the names of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus';
Whereas Scanderbeg died at the town of Lyssus (now Lezha), Albania, on January 17, 1468, and Albanians resisted Ottoman occupation for another 20 years, after which the Ottomans overran Albania, forcing tens of thousands of Albanians to flee across the Adriatic Sea to the Kingdom of Naples for asylum, where their progeny still live today;
Whereas the nation of Albania under Scanderbeg prevented the invasion of Rome and all of Italy by the Ottoman Empire, thus effectively paving the way for the Italian Renaissance;
Whereas statues of Scanderbeg mounted on his stallion with sword in hand today grace the capitals of Italy, Austria, Hungary, Albania, and Kosova;
Whereas Albania, including Kosova, became free again on November 28, 1912, after 425 years of Turkish Ottoman occupation, and today modern Albania and Turkey are both staunch allies of the United States of America; and
Whereas the Republic of Albania today is resolute in joining NATO and the European Union as promptly as possible: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the House of Representatives--
(1) commemorates the achievements of Gjergj Castrioti Scanderbeg and the 600th anniversary of his birth;
(2) commends Albanians everywhere for paying tribute to and honoring their valiant leader, hero, and son, Gjergj Castrioti; and
(3) urges the United States Government to work with its European partners to accelerate the integration of Albania and a free Kosova into the European Union, in recognition of the great contribution and sacrifice made by Gjergj Castrioti and the Albanian people in saving Western Europe from Ottoman domination.

I want to make some questions:




Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.[106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.[106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.[106]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius
Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.
And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok.
 
Interestingly you will learn from it that Albanians are very close cousins of Greeks. You should treat your family with respect, isn't it?


Neolithic_farmer_admixture.png

So very true. However lets be fair, it needs to work the other way round too. They should be brothers in arms (human arms I mean ) and I should get a hug too.....seems like some ancient grandparent was conceived there too :)
 
So very true. However lets be fair, it needs to work the other way round too. They should be brothers in arms (human arms I mean ) and I should get a hug too.....seems like some ancient grandparent was conceived there too :)

We are here to discuss about history not to make war. The friendship between albanians and greeks is the most oldest in the human history , until 1913.
 
We are here to discuss about history not to make war. The friendship between albanians and greeks is the most oldest in the human history , until 1913.



Wrong,
IN Dyrachium spoke 4 language, Greek Albanian Slavic Italo/Aromanian at the times of Kastrioti.
What they speak now?


The Greek Albanian Friendship ended at the times of Crocodilos Kladas.
After that only attack we accept from you.
after that days your Friend is Turkey.

You tell turk to me? Interesting:
.
you came to genocide us, and struggle the Greek revolt just to show how Turks you are.


you are the sons of Vallavan pasha an obeyer of Turks a Προσκυνημενος , and the Bektashi Turks which send away when forbid that Heresy.

PS
even at 191,3 here where I live, the Ottoman garrison was mostly Turk-Alban soldiers, who had their own tekke and went to Turkish schooll.


PS2
SONS OF VALLAVAN PASHA, WHO STILL 'HONOUR' KASTRIOTI!!! BUT FOLLOW VALLAVAN

well you pised me off Turk,

the next I will open my books again to answer you Historically, since Genetic science is not good enough for you,

Don't cry then. cause already members of the forum know who you are, and what you are doing here.
 
[QUOdidn'tinanswer tordhyl;437728]
You tell turk to me? Interesting:


H.RES.522 -- Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation. (Introduced in House - IH)
HRES 522 IH
109th CONGRESS​
1st Session​
H. RES. 522
Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
October 27, 2005

Mr. ROHRABACHER (for himself and Mr. LANTOS) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on International Relations

RESOLUTION
Honoring the 600th anniversary of the birth of Gjergj Castrioti (Scanderbeg), statesman, diplomat, and military genius, for his role in saving Western Europe from Ottoman occupation.
Whereas 600 years ago, in 1405 AD, in the White Castle of Kruja (formerly Croya), Albania, Gjergj Castrioti was born;
Whereas at the age of 17 his father reluctantly left him with the Ottoman Turkish Sultan as a condition of peace;
Whereas Castrioti excelled in studying history and classical languages and at an early age reached the rank of General in the Ottoman Turkish Army;
Whereas Castrioti's military genius and unique leadership qualities were praised by Sultan Murad, who called him Iskander Bey (now Scanderbeg), after Alexander the Great;
Whereas while being away from his native Albanian lands, Castrioti never forgot his Albanian heritage and people;
Whereas on October 28, 1443, after much soul-searching and in utmost secrecy, Castrioti finally decided to return home and liberate the Albanian people from Ottoman domination;
Whereas the Battle of Nish on November 10, 1443, between Ottoman troops and the Hungarian Army (led by another freedom-fighter, Janos Hunyadi), gave Scanderbeg the perfect opportunity to accomplish his plan of return;
Whereas on November 28, 1443, Scanderbeg returned to his native town of Kruja and raised again his flag with the double-headed eagle over the White Castle there, to the enthusiastic celebration of his people, an historical moment vividly described by the American poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow in his lengthy epic poem, `Scanderbeg';
Whereas Scanderbeg thereafter successfully defended the Albanian people against countless attacks by the Ottoman Empire, the largest army of the period, including in 1450 the onslaught of more than 150,000 Ottoman troops led by Sultan Murad, who was ultimately defeated by vastly outnumbered Albanian foot soldiers and cavalry led by Scanderbeg at the Castle of Kruja in a bloody Homeric struggle;
Whereas Murad's son, Sultan Mehmed, conquered Constantinople in 1453, thus ending the Byzantine period, but was unable in 1466 and 1467 to conquer Albania, even though he commanded the largest army of the time, including up to 300,000 foot soldiers and horsemen;
Whereas during 1460 and 1461 Gjergj Castrioti Scanderbeg brought his army to southern Italy for the second time to defend his ally, King Alphonse of Naples, against the invasion of the Lombards of southern France;
Whereas Gjergj Castrioti united the Albanian people and established a free state of Albania, which endured for 25 years;
Whereas according to Major General James Wolfe, commander of the British army at Quebec, `Scanderbeg . . . excels all officers, ancient and modern, in the conduct of a small defensive army . . ..'; and, according to noted British historian Edward Gibbon, `the enthusiasm of chivalry and religion has ranked the Albanian prince with the names of Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus';
Whereas Scanderbeg died at the town of Lyssus (now Lezha), Albania, on January 17, 1468, and Albanians resisted Ottoman occupation for another 20 years, after which the Ottomans overran Albania, forcing tens of thousands of Albanians to flee across the Adriatic Sea to the Kingdom of Naples for asylum, where their progeny still live today;
Whereas the nation of Albania under Scanderbeg prevented the invasion of Rome and all of Italy by the Ottoman Empire, thus effectively paving the way for the Italian Renaissance;
Whereas statues of Scanderbeg mounted on his stallion with sword in hand today grace the capitals of Italy, Austria, Hungary, Albania, and Kosova;
Whereas Albania, including Kosova, became free again on November 28, 1912, after 425 years of Turkish Ottoman occupation, and today modern Albania and Turkey are both staunch allies of the United States of America; and
Whereas the Republic of Albania today is resolute in joining NATO and the European Union as promptly as possible: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the House of Representatives--
(1) commemorates the achievements of Gjergj Castrioti Scanderbeg and the 600th anniversary of his birth;
(2) commends Albanians everywhere for paying tribute to and honoring their valiant leader, hero, and son, Gjergj Castrioti; and
(3) urges the United States Government to work with its European partners to accelerate the integration of Albania and a free Kosova into the European Union, in recognition of the great contribution and sacrifice made by Gjergj Castrioti and the Albanian people in saving Western Europe from Ottoman domination.

I want to make some questions:




Who brought the Turks in the Balkans and against whom?
In the battle of Kosovo, was an anti-Ottoman Balkan coalition why had not the Greek?
During the 100 years war was made ​​by Albanians against the Turks from Ulcinj to Peloponnese, including the 25 years of resistance led by Skanderbeg, where were the Greeks?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanderbeg
However, during an ambush in the same battle, Ballaban managed to capture some important Albanian noblemen, including Moisi Arianit Golemi, a cavalry commander, Vladan Gjurica, the chief army quartermaster, Muzaka of Angelina, a nephew of Skanderbeg, and 18 other officers.[106] These men were sent immediately to Constantinople where they were skinned alive for fifteen days and later cut to pieces and thrown to the dogs.[106] Skanderbeg's pleas to have these men back, by either ransom or prisoner exchange, failed.[106]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius
Mehmed therefore sought the most anti-Western cleric he could find as a figure of unity for the Greeks under Turkish rule – and Gennadius as leading anti-Union figure was a natural choice. On 1 June 1453, just three days after the fall of the city, the new Patriarch's procession passed through the streets where Mehmed received Gennadius graciously and himself invested him with the signs of his office – the crosier (dikanikion) and mantle. This ceremonial investiture would be repeated by all Sultans and Patriarchs thereafter.
And finally after you failed to tell me the name of a Greek hero, can you tell me a Greek uprising against the Turks during 400 years invasion? I am very curios. If you call uprising to fill Turkish harems with Christian girls, ok.

You did not answer to my questions. Sometimes try to use references and tell us the sources, or it is an secret?
P.S. Can you tell me this story about this Krokodil?
 
Who told you that I am mussulman ? About you what is your surname Tukuroglou, Hatxhinicholau?
BTW, i respect all religion. Try to make an normal discussion . If you dont hold the discussion , stop posting.
 
[QUOdidn'tinanswer tordhyl;437728]

You did not answer to my questions. Sometimes try to use references and tell us the sources, or it is an secret?
P.S. Can you tell me this story about this Krokodil?


When you answr my questions I will answer yours
 
Who told you that I am mussulman ? About you what is your surname Tukuroglou, Hatxhinicholau?
BTW, i respect all religion. Try to make an normal discussion . If you dont hold the discussion , stop posting.

No you don't,
you use a mask, a profile,

you write and post, you never answer,

yes you are, you are a Turk Alban,
like the Musta-bey, remember him? the one who join Qiutahi pasha and threatened all Greeks and Arbanites, to obey him.

what your Turk-Alban, the braveheart of Albania told us in 1821,
In my army army also exist Christins, (meaning prefer me I rule upon christians and muslims, not Qiutahi cause he has only Muslim Turk) so kneal before me or I smash you Down revolters, who dare revolt Ottoman empire.

You still did νοτ andswer me,
In dyrrachium spoke 4 languages at times of Kastrioti Greek Albanian Italian/Aromani Slavic
how many spoken today?




you are not civilized, you never answer, just bomb the place.
no you are educated, by your own posts you deny your shelf.

you enter forum just to attack me, why?
From Post #64 you personal attacking me,
with what? Fallmayer? wow with crup, like the ones Kolla write.
in fact if I use Kolla's work and name you will have no place to hide,
cause readers here know and understand what kind of name is Kolla and origin
as well for example
Dera θυρα Porta means as origins of language

answer me where are the rest of Suliotes today? are they in Albania?
answer me where the rest of Kastrioti family? are they in Albania?


is it true that in Dyrrachium/epidamnos the local school carries the name TURGUT OZAL? with 900 pupils?
are you one of them?


Estradioti
??? how called the early Albanians the soldiers? Mercurius Bua Spata
soon coming more, 'educated' and 'civilized' man.
 
When you answr my questions I will answer yours

I remember an good goalkeeper of Olimpiakos, named Tukuroglu, he was really good.

BTW, i am reading some materials, it's curios but seems that the inhabitants of Mani, maniotes are all albanian origin. Even in Crete island we can find a lot of albanians .
King Otto and General Kalergi were right .
 
no you don't,
you use a mask, a profile,

you write and post, you never answer,

yes you are, you are a turk alban,
like the musta-bey, remember him? The one who join qiutahi pasha and threatened all greeks and arbanites, to obey him.

What your turk-alban, the braveheart of albania told us in 1821,
in my army army also exist christins, (meaning prefer me i rule upon christians and muslims, not qiutahi cause he has only muslim turk) so kneal before me or i smash you down revolters, who dare revolt ottoman empire.

you still did andswer me,
in dyrrachium spoke 4 languages at times of kastrioti greek albanian italian/aromani slavic
how many spoken today?




you are not civilized, you never answer, just bomb the place.
No you are educated, by your own posts you deny your shelf.


delirium!!!!
 

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