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Thread: The Sarmatians in Britain!

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    The Sarmatians in Britain!



    I asked myself how I2a-din ended up in Britain. And now I found the answer!

    Marcus Aurelius send 5500 Sarmatians to Britain!

    "Archaeological evidence of Sarmatians has been found also at Chesters ..."

    http://books.google.nl/books?id=XKU9...page&q&f=false


    And not the Germanic tribes but Iranic tribes were the real power around the Black Sea and North of the Balkans!

    Incredible, didn't know that Emperor Galerius (293-311) even had a Sarmatian bodyguard!







    I took this from page 50-51 from this book:
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=yVws...page&q&f=false



    more about this subject: 'From Scythia to Camelot', by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor
    http://ossetians.com/eng/news.php?newsid=370

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    Celtic Druidic rituals are actually Iranic Zoroastrian! The Celts learned it from the Sarmatians!

    http://www.llewellyn.com/encyclopedia/article/187

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    As no one knows what was involved in a Druidic ritual and what little was written about Druids (particularly those in Ireland) came from the outside perception of foreigners (therefore rumour) I don't see how they can be correctly compared to anyone, little on so emphatically as the above link suggests. The author of the article on Celtic Religion does not list sources either, which also sheds doubt on his/her claims.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    What the...

    Goga, there isn't any I2a-Din in Britain, except for extremely recent migrations. Do you mean I2a-Disles? Although it's the closest clade to I2a-Din, Nordtvedt estimates it as having a TMRCA with I2a-Din of nearly 6,000 years ago. That's not within range for the time period you're proposing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
    As no one knows what was involved in a Druidic ritual and what little was written about Druids (particularly those in Ireland) came from the outside perception of foreigners (therefore rumour) I don't see how they can be correctly compared to anyone, little on so emphatically as the above link suggests. The author of the article on Celtic Religion does not list sources either, which also sheds doubt on his/her claims.
    Fire

    "Of the three common gates in the Sacred Center, it is the Fire that is most important within Druid ritual and Druidic cosmology. It is clear that like the eastern Indo-European religions, our own has developed into a fire-cult."

    ... The fire is intimately connected to the sacrifice. Agni, the Vedic fire god, not only devours the sacrifice, but he calls the gods forth to sit upon the sacrificial grass, and he transfers the sacrifice to the rest of the host of gods and goddesses, who (it is said) cannot be exhilarated without him. ...

    ... In Zoroastrian ritual, the two basic cult objects are still fire and water, both of which are offered to in the daily yasna ritual. This ritual seeks to purify the fire, called the son of the Lord of Wisdom and placed in the south of the ritual precinct, which is the place of goodness and bounty. ...

    http://www.adf.org/articles/cosmology/nine-tenets.html

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    Also remember that "the Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practised in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra, adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Romans also called the religion Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    What the...

    Goga, there isn't any I2a-Din in Britain, except for extremely recent migrations. Do you mean I2a-Disles? Although it's the closest clade to I2a-Din, Nordtvedt estimates it as having a TMRCA with I2a-Din of nearly 6,000 years ago. That's not within range for the time period you're proposing.
    Ok. I don't know what I mean, but if there is some unusual 'eastern' DNA in Britain it could be due to the Sarmatians!

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry Goga, you are making a number of false conjectures here:

    - first off, modern (neo-pagan) Druidism has very little to do with the actual ancient religion. I would argue that our best sources on that are Irish/Welsh myths and references in Greek/Roman sources, though all of these are biased (the former through Christian influence, the latter through the 'Interpretatio Graecia/Romana').

    - secondarily, you assume a connection between the Sarmatians and Zoroastrianism. This is just plain wrong: Zoroastrianism was the religion of Persia (in fact, the state religion if you will), and not of the Sarmathians. Just because the Sarmatians just like the Persians were Iranic peoples doesn't mean that they had the same religion.

    - third, as Sparkey correctly pointed out, the subclade of Haplogroup I2a on the British Isles is actually a different one from the one found on the Balkans, and is more likely to be native to the British Isles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry Goga, you are making a number of false conjectures here:

    - first off, modern (neo-pagan) Druidism has very little to do with the actual ancient religion. I would argue that our best sources on that are Irish/Welsh myths and references in Greek/Roman sources, though all of these are biased (the former through Christian influence, the latter through the 'Interpretatio Graecia/Romana').

    - secondarily, you assume a connection between the Sarmatians and Zoroastrianism. This is just plain wrong: Zoroastrianism was the religion of Persia (in fact, the state religion if you will), and not of the Sarmathians. Just because the Sarmatians just like the Persians were Iranic peoples doesn't mean that they had the same religion.

    - third, as Sparkey correctly pointed out, the subclade of Haplogroup I2a on the British Isles is actually a different one from the one found on the Balkans, and is more likely to be native to the British Isles
    - "Since Zoroaster was reforming an earlier nature religion, the word Druj is possibly at root the same as the words Druid and Dryad. O.Schrader in his Prehistoric Antiquities of the Aryan Peoples, thinks the name had been applied to malevolent ghosts, conceivably the same nature spirits that the Druids were supposed to have guarded against. When Ahriman became the opponent of Ahuramazda, the Druj was equated with him.

    Also, that's a little bit offtopic. But Druids practise the bonfire rituals too:

    Tree cults were popular in India, so this looks to be the living residue of ancient Aryan tree worship. European Indo-Eupopeans such as the Scandinavians and Saxons worshipped trees, as did the Celtic Druids. Decorating our own familiar Christmas tree could hardly be a more ancient Pagan practice. The decorations are supposed to remind the tree of how it is in full fruit, and prepare it for awakening again for a new season in spring. It comes from Germany but Luther is said to have revived the custom from what he had read about Zoroastrianism."
    http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religi.../book2/pt4.htm


    - "The religious practices were consistant among the Sauro-Sarmatian nomads. They were typical of the clan-tribal cults of pre-Zoroastrian Iran. The gods were personified. Those gods of nature were the sky, the earth, and fire. Gods pertaining to social concepts were the domestic hearth and war. The evidence of fire cult practices is exemplified by charcoal and ashes found in the burials."
    http://www.silk-road.com/artl/sarmatian.shtml

    Sarmatians practised the fire cult!


    - read my answer I gave to Sparkley!

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    Some scholars have suggested that the Druids were the Celtic counterparts of the Brahmans of India.
    http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Europea..._CE_Supplement)


    There're even some folks that believe that Sarmatian legends were responsible for the (King) Arthurian legends.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori...ian_hypothesis


    "Bannock

    A barley cake traditionally served at Celtic/Druidic festivals celebrating the advent of spring"

    http://pendragon343.com/encyclo.txt


    My people (Yezidi Kurds) still make every year a cake celebrating the advent of spring / Newroz (Kurdish new year), lol. We call this ritual (cake) 'klotsj'!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The similarities you mention go back beyond the Sarmatians to a shared Indo-European heritage. Your y-dna premise is incorrect, as sparkey and Taranis have written. I doubt the Sarmatians had much if any impact in Britain, genetic or otherwise. Some people fixate on them because they were horsemen and thus are thought glamorous.

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    I do agree with you. Of course was the genetic impact of Sarmatians on Brits almost zero. 5500 people is not very much even 2000 years ago!

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    - "Since Zoroaster was reforming an earlier nature religion, the word Druj is possibly at root the same as the words Druid and Dryad. O.Schrader in his Prehistoric Antiquities of the Aryan Peoples, thinks the name had been applied to malevolent ghosts, conceivably the same nature spirits that the Druids were supposed to have guarded against. When Ahriman became the opponent of Ahuramazda, the Druj was equated with him.
    The most widely accepted etymology for "druid" is Proto-Celtic *daru-wid-s ("oak-knower", "tree-knower?"). The Proto-Celtic *daru (oak) comes from Proto-Indo-European *doru (tree), which is in Iranian languages reflected semantically as "wood". So I don't see how they are etymologically related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    The most widely accepted etymology for "druid" is Proto-Celtic *daru-wid-s ("oak-knower", "tree-knower?"). The Proto-Celtic *daru (oak) comes from Proto-Indo-European *doru (tree), which is in Iranian languages reflected semantically as "wood". So I don't see how they are etymologically related.
    Actually, you mean semantically related. Etymologically, it is the same source (common Indo-European). It just doesn't have the same meaning in the individual languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Actually, you mean semantically related. Etymologically, it is the same source (common Indo-European). It just doesn't have the same meaning in the individual languages.
    Both semantically and etymologically. While the dru- in druid came from PIE *doru (tree), Avestan Druj probably came from PIE *dhreugh- (deceive), cognate for example with Avestan druzaiti (lies, decieves) and Old Indic druhyati (harms, is hostile to)

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    I am not so sure about this. I2a-Dinaric is effectively absent in Britain. The forms found there, called 'Isles' and 'Disles' by Ken Nordtvedt are quite different from the largely Balkan-distributed 'Dinaric North' and 'Dinaric South'. For exampe, 'Isles' and 'Dinaric' parted ways around 13,000 years ago. Nordtvedt sees the absolutely miniscule presence of I2a-Dinaric in Britain as largely due to NPEs and Polish military who settled in the UK after WW2.

    I am not saying that Sarmatians never set foot in Britain but that there appears to be no credible case for their genetic echoes in the form of I2a-Dinaric. As for the presence of E clades...that might be different.

    The major form of I2a in Britain which is P37.2, M423 and L161 positive, has the new nomenclature of I2a1b2-Isles. It is currently divided by Nordtvedt into 8 sub-clades, differing slightly in age and distribution. Ireland, Scotland and England have very small numbers of these clades, but they appear to be effectively absent from Wales. There is a small presence across the north European plain too with Germany predominating. Nordtvedt conjectures that L161 was founded in northern Germany. It is likely that the 'Isles' clades were carried in small quantities to Britain and Ireland by successive waves of invaders as a minority signature, or by individuals [traders etc], from the days of Doggerland through to Anglo-Saxon invasions [the latter case regarding the English distribution].

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    Yes you're right! I was wrong about I2a in Britain. It's even not sure that I2a-DIN 'belongs' to Sarmatians or something.

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    You don't like Celts, do you? lol

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    I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.
    I thought it was Parthian rather than Sarmatian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.
    "The Romans, in turn, likely adopted this symbol of war and authority from their Sarmatian foes of the eastern steppes, taking draco standards as spoils of war, as documented by the reliefs on the base of emperor Trajan’s column. The draco was made of a metal dragon’s head and a tubular fabric body, not unlike a modern wind sock, with the fabric body flowing in the breeze behind the head."


    Sarmation draco detail from a relief at the base of Trajan's Column (A.D. 113-117), Rome.

    http://www.tattoosymbol.com/just-for...sh-dragon.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.
    The strange thing is that the Roman ceasars recruted Sarmatian (Iranic) warriors and had even Sarmatian bodyguards! So they trusted them. And on the other side the Romans fought against the Iranic peoples in the East!

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I thought it was Parthian rather than Sarmatian.
    I think a number of steppe origin peoples adopted this as a war symbol. The Parthians seemed to prefer the Scythian archer on their coins though. Incidentally, there are interesting "dragon" allusions in the Old Ukrainian legends. The multiple fortifications (many of them excavated) which stretch south of Kyiv near the border with the steppe were traditionally called the "Dragon Walls" (Zmijevi Valy) They were used, abandoned, repaired and reused for a very long time. The "dragons" were obviously the aggressive steppe populations at various epochs. Curiously some of these are also associated with the Kyiv Foundation Legend: the second "brother" of the founding trio in that legend bears the name "Serpent" (Shchek) and there was a hill by his name in Old Kyiv ("Shchekavytsja").

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    I heard about this theory before. They say Roman soldiers sent some Sarmatians, as well as some people from the occupied Balkan region to Britain to fight against other tribes and some settled down. They link the presence of E, in addition to I to them also. How accurate this is is uncertain to me. Could be coincidence, as other explanations are also possible. But it's still interesting nonetheless.

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    There's some Gedrosia admixture-dna component in Northwest Europe (mostly among folks with Germanic roots) . It's possible that it was brought by Iranic tribes for the east (Asia). Germanic and Iranic tribes had contact with each other in Eastern Europe.

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