Celtic Druidic rituals are actually Iranic Zoroastrian! The Celts learned it from the Sarmatians!
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I asked myself how I2a-din ended up in Britain. And now I found the answer!
Marcus Aurelius send 5500 Sarmatians to Britain!
"Archaeological evidence of Sarmatians has been found also at Chesters ..."
And not the Germanic tribes but Iranic tribes were the real power around the Black Sea and North of the Balkans!
Incredible, didn't know that Emperor Galerius (293-311) even had a Sarmatian bodyguard!
I took this from page 50-51 from this book:
more about this subject: 'From Scythia to Camelot', by C. Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor
As no one knows what was involved in a Druidic ritual and what little was written about Druids (particularly those in Ireland) came from the outside perception of foreigners (therefore rumour) I don't see how they can be correctly compared to anyone, little on so emphatically as the above link suggests. The author of the article on Celtic Religion does not list sources either, which also sheds doubt on his/her claims.
Goga, there isn't any I2a-Din in Britain, except for extremely recent migrations. Do you mean I2a-Disles? Although it's the closest clade to I2a-Din, Nordtvedt estimates it as having a TMRCA with I2a-Din of nearly 6,000 years ago. That's not within range for the time period you're proposing.
"Of the three common gates in the Sacred Center, it is the Fire that is most important within Druid ritual and Druidic cosmology. It is clear that like the eastern Indo-European religions, our own has developed into a fire-cult."
... The fire is intimately connected to the sacrifice. Agni, the Vedic fire god, not only devours the sacrifice, but he calls the gods forth to sit upon the sacrificial grass, and he transfers the sacrifice to the rest of the host of gods and goddesses, who (it is said) cannot be exhilarated without him. ...
... In Zoroastrian ritual, the two basic cult objects are still fire and water, both of which are offered to in the daily yasna ritual. This ritual seeks to purify the fire, called the son of the Lord of Wisdom and placed in the south of the ritual precinct, which is the place of goodness and bounty. ...
Also remember that "the Mithraic Mysteries were a mystery religion practised in the Roman Empire from about the 1st to 4th centuries AD. The name of the Persian god Mithra, adapted into Greek as Mithras, was linked to a new and distinctive imagery. Romans also called the religion Mysteries of Mithras or Mysteries of the Persians; modern historians refer to it as Mithraism, or sometimes Roman Mithraism. The mysteries were popular in the Roman military."
Sorry Goga, you are making a number of false conjectures here:
- first off, modern (neo-pagan) Druidism has very little to do with the actual ancient religion. I would argue that our best sources on that are Irish/Welsh myths and references in Greek/Roman sources, though all of these are biased (the former through Christian influence, the latter through the 'Interpretatio Graecia/Romana').
- secondarily, you assume a connection between the Sarmatians and Zoroastrianism. This is just plain wrong: Zoroastrianism was the religion of Persia (in fact, the state religion if you will), and not of the Sarmathians. Just because the Sarmatians just like the Persians were Iranic peoples doesn't mean that they had the same religion.
- third, as Sparkey correctly pointed out, the subclade of Haplogroup I2a on the British Isles is actually a different one from the one found on the Balkans, and is more likely to be native to the British Isles
Also, that's a little bit offtopic. But Druids practise the bonfire rituals too:
Tree cults were popular in India, so this looks to be the living residue of ancient Aryan tree worship. European Indo-Eupopeans such as the Scandinavians and Saxons worshipped trees, as did the Celtic Druids. Decorating our own familiar Christmas tree could hardly be a more ancient Pagan practice. The decorations are supposed to remind the tree of how it is in full fruit, and prepare it for awakening again for a new season in spring. It comes from Germany but Luther is said to have revived the custom from what he had read about Zoroastrianism."
- "The religious practices were consistant among the Sauro-Sarmatian nomads. They were typical of the clan-tribal cults of pre-Zoroastrian Iran. The gods were personified. Those gods of nature were the sky, the earth, and fire. Gods pertaining to social concepts were the domestic hearth and war. The evidence of fire cult practices is exemplified by charcoal and ashes found in the burials."
Sarmatians practised the fire cult!
- read my answer I gave to Sparkley!
Some scholars have suggested that the Druids were the Celtic counterparts of the Brahmans of India.
There're even some folks that believe that Sarmatian legends were responsible for the (King) Arthurian legends.
A barley cake traditionally served at Celtic/Druidic festivals celebrating the advent of spring"
My people (Yezidi Kurds) still make every year a cake celebrating the advent of spring / Newroz (Kurdish new year), lol. We call this ritual (cake) 'klotsj'!
The similarities you mention go back beyond the Sarmatians to a shared Indo-European heritage. Your y-dna premise is incorrect, as sparkey and Taranis have written. I doubt the Sarmatians had much if any impact in Britain, genetic or otherwise. Some people fixate on them because they were horsemen and thus are thought glamorous.
I do agree with you. Of course was the genetic impact of Sarmatians on Brits almost zero. 5500 people is not very much even 2000 years ago!
I am not so sure about this. I2a-Dinaric is effectively absent in Britain. The forms found there, called 'Isles' and 'Disles' by Ken Nordtvedt are quite different from the largely Balkan-distributed 'Dinaric North' and 'Dinaric South'. For exampe, 'Isles' and 'Dinaric' parted ways around 13,000 years ago. Nordtvedt sees the absolutely miniscule presence of I2a-Dinaric in Britain as largely due to NPEs and Polish military who settled in the UK after WW2.
I am not saying that Sarmatians never set foot in Britain but that there appears to be no credible case for their genetic echoes in the form of I2a-Dinaric. As for the presence of E clades...that might be different.
The major form of I2a in Britain which is P37.2, M423 and L161 positive, has the new nomenclature of I2a1b2-Isles. It is currently divided by Nordtvedt into 8 sub-clades, differing slightly in age and distribution. Ireland, Scotland and England have very small numbers of these clades, but they appear to be effectively absent from Wales. There is a small presence across the north European plain too with Germany predominating. Nordtvedt conjectures that L161 was founded in northern Germany. It is likely that the 'Isles' clades were carried in small quantities to Britain and Ireland by successive waves of invaders as a minority signature, or by individuals [traders etc], from the days of Doggerland through to Anglo-Saxon invasions [the latter case regarding the English distribution].
Yes you're right! I was wrong about I2a in Britain. It's even not sure that I2a-DIN 'belongs' to Sarmatians or something.
You don't like Celts, do you? lol
I know one thing that Sarmathians certainly brought to Britain - look at Cymru flag - it had Sarmathian dragon.
Sarmation draco detail from a relief at the base of Trajan's Column (A.D. 113-117), Rome.
I heard about this theory before. They say Roman soldiers sent some Sarmatians, as well as some people from the occupied Balkan region to Britain to fight against other tribes and some settled down. They link the presence of E, in addition to I to them also. How accurate this is is uncertain to me. Could be coincidence, as other explanations are also possible. But it's still interesting nonetheless.
There's some Gedrosia admixture-dna component in Northwest Europe (mostly among folks with Germanic roots) . It's possible that it was brought by Iranic tribes for the east (Asia). Germanic and Iranic tribes had contact with each other in Eastern Europe.