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Thread: G2a and E-V13 in Neolithic Spain (5000 BCE)

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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.

    Thumbs up G2a and E-V13 in Neolithic Spain (5000 BCE)



    Lacan et al., who tested the Neolithic site of Treilles in Southwest France (G2a + I2a) published a new study on Neolithic Spain. The samples are 2000 years older than in Treilles, and identified both G2a and E-V13. This could either confirm a Neolithic origin of E-V13 or, my recent proposal that E1b1b crossed from Africa to Europe before the Neolithic. Spain is indeed the most likely point of entry from North Africa, along with South Italy.

    Considering that a substantial percentage of Neolithic mtDNA in Iberia is African (L1b1, L2, L3, respectively in Andalusia, Navarra and Valencia), this could indeed be a sign of a direct migration from North Africa. My hypothesis is that this migration was due to the desertification of the Sahara at the end of the last Ice Age.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lacan et al.
    The impact of the Neolithic dispersal on the western European populations is subject to continuing debate. To trace and date genetic lineages potentially brought during this transition and so understand the origin of the gene pool of current populations, we studied DNA extracted from human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from the beginning of the fifth millennium B.C. Thanks to a “multimarkers” approach based on the analysis of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA (autosomes and Y-chromosome), we obtained information on the early Neolithic funeral practices and on the biogeographical origin of the inhumed individuals. No close kinship was detected. Maternal haplogroups found are consistent with pre-Neolithic settlement, whereas the Y-chromosomal analyses permitted confirmation of the existence in Spain approximately 7,000 y ago of two haplogroups previously associated with the Neolithic transition: G2a and E1b1b1a1b. These results are highly consistent with those previously found in Neolithic individuals from French Late Neolithic individuals, indicating a surprising temporal genetic homogeneity in these groups. The high frequency of G2a in Neolithic samples in western Europe could suggest, furthermore, that the role of men during Neolithic dispersal could be greater than currently estimated.
    Another interesting point is that they mention that the mitochondrial lineages are mostly pre-Neolithic. If Neolithic farmers kept marrying local girls (from the hunter-gatherer community), that would explain why West Asian autosomal genes diminish gradually as we move further away from the Middle East. That may be why there is so little West Asian admixture in Iberia and Sardinia despite the relatively high percentage of G2a.


    EDIT : The individuals results are as follow :

    - Y-DNA : five G2a men and one E-V13. All confirmed by SNP test except one G2a.
    - mtDNA : three K1a, two T2b, one H3 and one U5.

    The E-V13 man is the mtDNA U5.

    I can't see why Lacan et al. think that these maternal lineages are pre-Neolithic, except for the U5 and H3.

    Mt-haplogroup K, and K1a in particular, is so far the most overrepresented among Neolithic samples (16%) compared to the present-day population. This is exactly the frequency observed today in the Levant and in Kurdistan (Georgia is also high with 11%). This makes of mtDNA K one of the most distinctive Near Eastern marker, the maternal equivalent of G2a.

    Mt-haplogroup T has never been found in Europe prior to the Neolithic (except for one sample in the Pitted Ware Culture, which is actually contemporary of the Late Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age elsewhere in Europe). There is an interesting inversion of frequency between mtDNA hg J and T in the early and late Neolithic. Based on the current data (247 samples), the frequency of hg T dropped from over 19% in the Early Neolithic to only 4.5% the Late Neolithic, then up again to 10.5% in the Bronze Age (similar level to today).
    Last edited by Maciamo; 01-11-11 at 23:35.

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    The finding of E-V13 in Iberia was really unexpected, it was much logical to find E-M81 and similars. Well, I'm sure they will appear too, but for the moment it's a surprise.

    Autosomally speaking as Maciamo pointed, both G2a and the new one don't have a relevant impact. This E-V13 surely contributed to the Northwest/East African components we see in the latest results for Iberians. However, it's difficult to say in other parts of Europe (specially around the Balkans) which kind of influence carried. Possibly the Southeastern component from the Euro7 calculator has something to do with it, but needs to be separated more from the Middle East. We'll see the incomming Dodecad v4 how it looks.

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    Wow, excellent news, and a huge surprise. While I expected E1b to show up there, I did NOT expect E1b-V13 to show up in Iberia, if said subclade is today dominant on the Balkans. On the other hand the occurence of G2a is not exactly surprising now after Derenburg, Treilles and Ötzi - it merely reaffirms the other sites. Also, even though this really should not surprise anybody at this point at all (but I'm mention it anyways for the sake of completeness), no R1b - something that was equally expected.

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    Correct about R1b. At this moment, if one day appears ancient R1b clearly related with today's dominant Western European subclades, that would be the biggest surprise.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Nice, several important results here:

    • Another confirmation of G2a as the major Neolithic Y-DNA haplogroup
    • A breakthrough in E1b! And E1b-V13, no less! There go "latecomer" theories about E1b-V13... E1b-M81 still needing representation, though...
    • No I2a1a! Should we expect this? I say yes... Nordtvedt dates the bottleneck of I2a1a after these men lived, at which point it appears to have expanded out of the Pyrenees. So I2a1a would have probably still been a mountain-bound hunter-gatherer haplogroup at this point, unlike the situation with the Treilles samples.
    • Confirmation of the effect of migrations magnifying the Y-DNA of the migrators but not the mtDNA.

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    Amazing! I had been for some time speculating what this has confirmed: E-V13 (as well as G2a, of course) was brought by the Cardium Pottery Culture. I knew the Greeks and Phoenicians could not be responsible for all the E-V13 found in the west Mediterranean! Also of note is the absence of E-M81, which probably condones the theory (as Maciamo has written) that it is pre-Neolithic in Iberia. Needless to say, it also throws more dirt to the grave of the theory that R1b arrived in w. Europe with the first farmers.
    Edit: Of course, this also highlights the need for an Eupedia map of the two main European E1b subclades, does it not, Maciamo?

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    Today E-V13 is found at 0.20% in Spain (n = 1.477) and G2a at 0.14%, from the supplmentary info of the study :

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...61108.abstract

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Today E-V13 is found at 0.20% in Spain (n = 1.477) and G2a at 0.14%, from the supplmentary info of the study :

    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...61108.abstract
    Actually that's only for the precise haplotype found in the ancient samples (same STR, I suppose). It's interesting though that the best modern matches for this Neolithic E-V13 are in Montenegro, Armenia and the Druze from the Levant. This would confirm a Near-Eastern origin. If only they had also provided comparisons for North Africa ! How could they look at Irish, Scandinavian and Polish E-V13 but not North African one ?

    Incidentally, the Druze might be the closest Levantines to Neolithic farmers. The Druze are also well-known for their quite different Y-DNA and mtDNA frequencies compared to other Levantines. They have a particularly high frequency and high diversity of mt-haplogroup X (27%, including both X1 and X2 subclades). Cruciani found 10% of E-V13 among the Druze, while Shlush et al. found 10% of G, 19% of E1b1b, 33% of J and 18% of R1b.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Fascinating! I didn't expect these results. I expected R1b & E, but absolutely no I. Part of my expectations were true.

    But I must admit that my doubts on the Paleolithic R1b are growing. And I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong!

    There is no R1b, but neither hg. 'I'!

    Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.

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    Lactase Persistence Result. The LP-13910-C/T SNP associated with lactase persistence was successfully typed for all ancient samples tested. The mutated position would have appeared during the dissemination of the Linear pottery culture in central Europe.
    This could indicate they arrived through Balkans, where they could have picked E V13.

    They were probably farmers-shepherds, with, as I believe, farming as supplementary activity.

    I still can not picture Neolithic farming for a substantial diet, especially in those times, but rather some sort of a food bank allowing for a continuous and more complete nutrition, less dependent on meat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Fascinating! I didn't expect these results. I expected R1b & E, but absolutely no I. Part of my expectations were true.

    But I must admit that my doubts on the Paleolithic R1b are growing. And I'm ready to admit that I'm wrong!

    There is no R1b, but neither hg. 'I'!

    Notice that there is also no J2a. This is according to me the biggest surprise. And my thoughts that J2a entered Europe together with the early Indo-Europeans are getting stronger.
    Sparkey already pointed exceedingly well why there's "virtually" no I in Iberia at this period. But the samples from Treilles (in Languedoc-Rosellón, wich is next to Catalonia) showed I2a. So your final statement doesn't mean anything, it's rather likely that Northern Spain was already inhabited by this people and similars according to this finding.

    Moreover: Rosellón was part of Catalonia till very recent times, and the fact that the highest Southwestern scores are reported (according to what we know) between ethnic Catalans, being also very high in the average Iberians, gives an idea that there were different I2a peoples inhabiting the Peninsula since very ancient times, and that they were numerous.

    Of course, a definitive evidence it's still lacking, but several clues point strongly in that direction.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    One could speculate that if there is some truth in mythical relatedness of the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of Iberian peninsula attested by the classical authors it must have been G2a folks :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    One could speculate that if there is some truth in mythical relatedness of the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of Iberian peninsula attested by the classical authors it must have been G2a folks :)
    Interesting point! According to me the Iberians in the Caucasus are older than the Iberians in Spain. And the Iberians in Southwest Europe mixed with the E folks!

    Look for Sarmatia north of Iberia, Persia southwest of Iberia and Media southeast of Iberia! And Albania bordering the Caspian Sea east of Iberia


    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Georgia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    One could speculate that if there is some truth in mythical relatedness of the Iberians of the Caucasus and the Iberians of Iberian peninsula attested by the classical authors it must have been G2a folks :)
    Let's not exaggerate. The G2a in Spain is very low, and other parts of Europe have much more (Switzerland, Austria, Italy,..)

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    Looks like G2a was the victim of both local mesolithic people and R1b people.


    Actually middle eastern neolithic migrants might have been a minority in western Europe among the mesolithic I2a1, I2a2, Em81 and pre I1 people with maybe the exception of Italy.

    It is just that those mesolithic people left less material so it is harder to find individuals for testing unlike neolithic sites.

    I think that when R1b S116 entered Iberia during the bronze age, most of the locals would have been I2a1 and Em81 people.

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    I agree spongetaro. However, E-M81 were still a minority in comparison with I2a1a* and similars. If not, the autosomal results would be fairly different today.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I agree spongetaro. However, E-M81 were still a minority in comparison with I2a1a* and similars. If not, the autosomal results would be fairly different today.
    It depends where.
    the repartition of I2a1 and E-M81 broadly reflects that of the neolithic I think.
    E-M81 in Western Iberia, Cantabria and Inner France. I2a1 in eastern Iberia, Northern Iberia, Sardinia and Aquitaine.

    Also, I think that E-M81 is one of the main reason why Iberia and France cluster together.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    French and Iberians cluster because of the West European and Mediterranean (mainly Southwestern) admixtures. E-M81 has little to do here, since there's very low North African admixture in Iberia today, no need to say in France...practically absent.

    I agree that in the Western side of Iberia E-M81 sholud be higher in comparison with the rest, although autosomal data still reflects it was probably minor. As regards for Sardinia, autosomally speaking they are surely much less I2a1a* than any Iberian. Other haplogroups seem to had higher impact as whole there, so I guess that even considering today I2a1a* it's the dominant haplogroup, the number of people representing it, was never higher than the others. Also, the present distribution in Iberia show very low levels in comparison with ancient times, it cannot be considered to take conclusions with the amount of R1b.

    As I said many times, the Euro7 Calculator is quite ilustrative to understand this, and I hope the incoming Dodecad v4 will be based on the same.

    One must think the following: If R1b was really absent a very long time ago, then, ¿what is the amount of Southwestern detected by admixutre in all Iberia? No better candidate than I2a1a* and similars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    French and Iberians cluster because of the West European and Mediterranean (mainly Southwestern) admixtures. E-M81 has little to do here, since there's very low North African admixture in Iberia today, no need to say in France...practically absent.
    E-M81 might be included in the Med admixture otherwise North African wouldn't have some much Med admixturet

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    Wrong.

    North Africans have that Mediterranean admixture primarily because of the haplogroups H1, H3 and V. The major MtDNA linages in all North Africa, no need to remind their huge presence in Europe.

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    BTW those E-M81 didn't have (I think) a look totally different from I2a1 people. Look at some Kabyle like Zinedine Zidane or Samir Nasri. They are white but probably E-M81. ZZ could be taken for a Sardinian (I2a1)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Wrong.

    North Africans have that Mediterranean admixture primarily because of the haplogroups H1, H3 and V. The major MtDNA linages in all North Africa, no need to remind their huge presence in Europe.

    If Mtdna H1 and H3 were all responsible for the Med admixture, then Norwegian people should have at least 30% of med admixture

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    You refer to ethnic Berbers, and for your information, the ones who really are, absolutely lack the Mediterranean admixture being almost enterily made of E-M81 and U6 MtDna. Easy noticiable while checking the Mozabite's population portrait from Dodecad.

    The most ethnic ones are almost 100% Northwest African component. Main Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc., are a different story. They have the mentioned influences, giving them apreciable levels of Mediterranean (but not only Southwestern variant, also Southeastern).

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    If Mtdna H1 and H3 were all responsible for the Med admixture, then Norwegian people should have at least 30% of med admixture
    Be serious please, haplogroup distribution not always match perfectly. According to your E-M81 argument, they sholud have 0% Mediterranean then, and the show almost 15%. I think it's enough significant.

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    Sorry to go completely offtopic, but my feeling is that Kabyle like Zidane and mesolithic E-M81 that cross Gibraltar detroit had similar looking. Not far from that of Sardinian people. The med admixture could have been prevalant in those people that's why you don't find much Northwest African admixture in Iberian and French nowadays. Sardinian man

    Karim Benzema and Zinedine Zidane

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