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Thread: Dedicated haplogroup pages

  1. #1
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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.

    Arrow Dedicated haplogroup pages



    I have started creating separate description pages for Y-DNA haplogroups. So far I have pages for Haplogroup G2a and Haplogroup I1. Let me know what you think. I am not 100% satisfied with my I1 banner yet.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    It looks good Maciamo, I'm curious to see what else you add. Also, I'd like to see more information about MtDNA. Specially haplogroup K has a very short mention, I think it's possible to improve it.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    I like the page style! It will be interesting to see all the banners once they're up.

    This bit on the I1 page doesn't make sense to me, though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    However the overwhelming proportion of I1 against R1a and R1b rather suggest that most of the Suomi I1 was in Finland came during the Mesolithic when humans reclaimed the region after the melting of the ice cap.
    The grammar is weird, but if I understand correctly, you're saying that I1d3-Bothnian split with the rest of I1 in the Mesolithic? I1 as a whole doesn't have a TMRCA that goes to the Mesolithic, much less I1d3. Nordtvedt places I1d3 at ~2000 years old... or if you want an older estimate, Robb has it at ~3000 years old. See "The elusive non-Germanic I1."

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    I like the page style! It will be interesting to see all the banners once they're up.

    This bit on the I1 page doesn't make sense to me, though:



    The grammar is weird, but if I understand correctly, you're saying that I1d3-Bothnian split with the rest of I1 in the Mesolithic? I1 as a whole doesn't have a TMRCA that goes to the Mesolithic, much less I1d3. Nordtvedt places I1d3 at ~2000 years old... or if you want an older estimate, Robb has it at ~3000 years old. See "The elusive non-Germanic I1."
    Sorry for the grammar. I edited the sentenced late last night and forgot to re-read the whole sentence. Thanks for pointing out the conflicting age estimate of Nordtvedt. This made me re-think the whole thing. I shouldn't have written early Mesolithic (which in Finland starts only from 8500 BCE), but rather late Mesolithic (until a bit after 3000 BCE, since there was no Neolithic in northern Fennoscandia). I maintain what I say, and I have now explained in detail why. I think that Nordtvedt is just badly mistaken about his age estimate, which wouldn't be surprising considering how unreliable this method is.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Sorry for the grammar. I edited the sentenced late last night and forgot to re-read the whole sentence. Thanks for pointing out the conflicting age estimate of Nordtvedt. This made me re-think the whole thing. I shouldn't have written early Mesolithic (which in Finland starts only from 8500 BCE), but rather late Mesolithic (until a bit after 3000 BCE, since there was no Neolithic in northern Fennoscandia). I maintain what I say, and I have now explained in detail why. I think that Nordtvedt is just badly mistaken about his age estimate, which wouldn't be surprising considering how unreliable this method is.
    Fair enough. I think Nordtvedt is reliable more often than not, but he has gotten some things wrong (like predicting that I2a2 is more closely related to I2c than to I2a1 and being proven wrong with SNPs). I actually strongly doubt his estimate for my own cluster, I2c-A, which seems much too young. The I1d3 estimate actually looks accurate to me, but the error bars are always large on STR dating, so there's nothing ruling out a mistake there as well.
    Last edited by sparkey; 03-11-11 at 23:08.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T- L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    Alpinoid
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    if this site fully excludes Robb, then this site has an issue

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    if this site fully excludes Robb, then this site has an issue
    Actually I just realized that I misread/misremembered Robb. He indeed does place I1d3 in a timeframe that works with Maciamo's theory (~3,500 BCE, not YBP). So I was wrong about that. But there's a good chance he's being thrown off there by including non-I1d3 in his age estimate for his approximation of I1d3. He actually uses specific STR values in a decision tree rather than STR clusters as what he dates, so he could be thrown off badly by convergence, which we've observed I1 having lots of. I don't know whether his latest dates take into account all the SNPs. So I still prefer Nordtvedt, but Robb is worth citing, yes.

    Incidentally, Jean Manco cites Robb's I1 tree but defers to Nordtvedt on the date estimate.

  8. #8
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    The idea of these dedications is brilliant!

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Fair enough. I think Nordtvedt is reliable more often than not, but he has gotten some things wrong (like predicting that I2a2 is more closely related to I2c than to I2a1 and being proven wrong with SNPs). I actually strongly doubt his estimate for my own cluster, I2c-A, which seems much too young. The I1d3 estimate actually looks accurate to me, but the error bars are always large on STR dating, so there's nothing ruling out a mistake there as well.
    I believe that Nordtvedt failed to take into account that Fennoscandia was a hunter-gatherer society until 2800 BCE (even later in the north, and until recently for the Saami), and hunter-gatherers had much smaller populations than agricultural societies. I read that the population of Britain passed from a few thousands people to about 100,000 people just after Neolithic farmers arrived from the continent. This never really happened in Nordic countries. Mutation rates (STR or SNP) are proportional to the population size. With such a tiny I1 population, I wouldn't be surprised if I1 was much older (many thousands years) than STR estimates suggest. If I1d3 is 5000 years old, then I1* could be 8,000 to 12,000 years old.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Here comes Haplogroup R1a !

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here comes Haplogroup R1a !
    Good work. In this R1a dedicated page, you wrote:

    A lot of Western and Northern European R1a that is negative for the marker Z284 falls under the root R1a1a1* (M417), or even in the older R1a1a (M17) and R1a1 (SRY10831.2). The former are descended from the oldest known expansion of R1a out of the Forest-Steppe, the Corded Ware Culture (see below), which predates all the above subclades. At present no subclade has been identified by a common SNP. However, Klyosov et al. (2009) found that a substantial percentage of R1a in Northwest Europe, particularly in Norway, England, Ireland and Iceland, had a repeat value of 10 (instead of 12) at the STR marker DYS388. Among them, some individuals were identified as carrying the mutation L664. The origin of the older subclades (M17 and SRY10831.2) is still unclear (perhaps the migration of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers around Europe).
    Is it the case of most of the Northern Iberian and Inner French R1a?
    In those two areas, there seems to have a curious blend of R1a and E1b1 like in northern Lybia.
    What if these R1a were mesolithic remanants?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I have now added Haplogroup J2. I have modified a lot the description. Note the new section about bull worship.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2c PF3881+ (Swiss)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U4a (Cornish)

    Ethnic group
    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
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    No famous people for R1a or J2 yet? For R1a, I know of Sir Francis Drake (descendants of his nephew Francis Drake tested R1a, see the Drake DNA Project) and Anderson Cooper (see ISOGG).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

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    Can we assume then that the heavy concentration of J2 in central anatolia was hittite, can we assume the heavy concentration of J2 near the hellespont was trojan. Can we assume thay became the sea people and sailed around looking to settle in lands, maybe ( apart from islands ) in modern albania first , then to italian lands.

    Did etruscans have J2 , as I know they where majority G2. there is a void of J2 in anatolia roughly where etruscans are said to have come from.

    I really think the bronze age migrations of around 1200BC has a lot to do with J2, G2 and E

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV1b2

    Ethnic group
    Kurd
    Country: Netherlands



    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Thank you for all your pages. You have got a very time-consuming hobby, lol!

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-ZS227 (Kohen)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5

    Ethnic group
    Patrilineally יהודי and matrilineally Anglo-Celtic
    Country: France



    Nice banners, I wonder how the J1, E1b1b1 and R1b banners will look like

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have now added Haplogroup J2. I have modified a lot the description. Note the new section about bull worship.
    Interesting, however, bull-worship has arose independently among many civilizations, as the bull is often a symbol for fecundation and fertility:
    Indra is frequently compared with a bull. His Iranian counterpart, Verethragna, appears to Zarathustra in the form of a bull, a stallion, a ram, a goat and a wild boar, and "some other symbols of the male and combative spirit of elemental powers of the blood". Sometimes Indra is also called a ram. These same animal epiphanies are again found in Rudra, a pre-Aryan divinity assimilated by Indra. Rudra is the father of the Marutas and in an hymn, it is remembered how "the bull Rudra created them in the clear udder of Prishni". Under its taurine form, the reproductive divinity has united itself to a cow-goddess that breeds all. Prishni is one of its names. Sabardughâ is another; but it is always about a cow that breeds all. Rig Veda, III, 38, 8, speaks about a "vishvarûpa cow that vivifies all"; in the Atharva Veda, X, 10, the cow unites itself successively to all the gods and breeds in all the cosmic planes; "the gods live off the cow and the men too, the cow has become in this universe as vast as the empire of the Sun". Aditi, mother of the supreme deities Adityas, is also represented as a cow.

    This reproductive-taurine "specialization" of the atmospheric and fertility divinity is not only noticed in the Indian domain, we once more find it in a very extended Afro-Eurasian form, but let us observe from now that such a "specialization" equally reveals external influences, be they influences of an ethnic order (the "southern elements" of which ethnologists speak of), be they of a religious order: Indra, for example, presents traces of extra-Aryan influences, but what interests us more for now is that their personality has been altered and augmented by elements that don't belong to him as god of the rain, the hurricane and cosmic fertility. His relations with the bull and Soma, for example, confer him lunar prestiges. The Moon governs the waters and the rains and distributes the universal fecundity; the bull horns have been assimilated very early into the waxing Moon. We will soon occupy ourselves again of all these cultural complexes. Let us retain however that the reproductive specialization constrains the celestial divinities to reabsorb in their personalities all the hierophanies that have a direct relation with the universal fecundity. Necessarily, by accentuating their meteorological (tempest, thunder, rain) and reproductive functions, a celestial god not only transforms himself in the partner of the great chtonic-lunar mother, but also assimilates her attributes; in the case of Indra, Soma, the bull and maybe even certain aspects of the Marutas (in the measure that the latter hypostatize the wandering souls of the dead)....
    M. Eliade, Patterns in Comparative Religion
    So, in conclusion, while some bull-worship may be an ethnic marker, it is not always the case.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a1a1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV2a1 +G13708A

    Ethnic group
    Kurd
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    Maciamo I have noticed a mistake you seem to have forgotten to fix.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml

    On the description Table just under the Haplogroup "Tree" it still says

    G => 17,000 years ago (between India and the Caucasus)
    I2 => 17,000 years ago (in the Balkans)
    J2 => 15,000 years ago (in northern Mesopotamia)
    I2b => 13,000 years ago (in Central Europe)
    N1c1 => 12,000 years ago (in Siberia)
    I2a => 11,000 years ago (in the Balkans)
    R1b1b2 => 10,000 years ago (north or south of the Caucasus)
    J1 => 10,000 years ago (in the Arabian peninsula)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It says I2a1 in Sardinia, also very dubious...It has been stated several times that this clade is surely relatively recent there. The Pyrenees are a more likely option for its ancestral place.

    So not the only thing to fix.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan View Post
    Maciamo I have noticed a mistake you seem to have forgotten to fix.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origin...s_europe.shtml

    On the description Table just under the Haplogroup "Tree" it still says

    G => 17,000 years ago (between India and the Caucasus)
    I2 => 17,000 years ago (in the Balkans)
    J2 => 15,000 years ago (in northern Mesopotamia)
    I2b => 13,000 years ago (in Central Europe)
    N1c1 => 12,000 years ago (in Siberia)
    I2a => 11,000 years ago (in the Balkans)
    R1b1b2 => 10,000 years ago (north or south of the Caucasus)
    J1 => 10,000 years ago (in the Arabian peninsula)
    Yes, you are right. Thanks for pointing that out. I am sure that a lot of dates and places of origin will have to be revised.

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    I would have given THIS item a + but apparently there is a restriction on approval or criticism per diem so I'll do it this way (:=)))
    Last edited by razor; 08-11-11 at 17:52. Reason: spelling

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Here is a first draft of Haplogroup R1b. I haven't modified the history for over a year, so I should re-read everything once and see if everything is consistent with my current knowledge. I should also make a new subclade tree.

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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a first draft of Haplogroup R1b. I haven't modified the history for over a year, so I should re-read everything once and see if everything is consistent with my current knowledge. I should also make a new subclade tree.
    Loved the draft, one thing though, on the scheme U152 is noted as R1b1a2a1a1b4 and in the table as R1b1a2a1a1b3

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    I already noticed that in the global distribution there's 5% of R1b in Northwest Africa without especification (mostly in Morocco and some in Tunisia) and then, there's between 1-5% of R-S28 (mostly in Algeria and a bit in Tunisia).

    I assume the figure for Tunisia is the same type of R1b in both maps, but ¿which subclade is the Moroccan one? and ¿What happened with Algeria in the global map (absent)?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kardu View Post
    Loved the draft, one thing though, on the scheme U152 is noted as R1b1a2a1a1b4 and in the table as R1b1a2a1a1b3
    That's because I have already updated the table but not yet the scheme. I will fix it soon.

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