Dedicated haplogroup pages

Shall there be an article about J1 and N or isn't there enough to expand on?

I have made the page for haplogroup J1 this morning.

I am not sure there is enough to write about haplogroup N now, especially if I limit it to N1c1.
 
I see there's a lot of information still unknown about J1. The non Arabic types have very low representation today, and possibly companies like 23andme and others only list "J1" in most of this cases. For example, I observed that paternal haplogroup T is only listed as plain T, and there are several subclades.

I'm afraid we need deep clade tests for this J1 linages.
 
Just I2, T, and Q left then?
 
Seems you are right sparkey. But I'm afraid if there wasn't much to say about N, Q & T could possibly have the same problem. We'll see.

Willing to see I2 :)
 
Seems you are right sparkey. But I'm afraid if there wasn't much to say about N, Q & T could possibly have the same problem. We'll see.

Willing to see I2 :)
It's not gonna be an easy task :)
 
I think the J1 banner is kind of simple in the sense that it doesn't represents only one J1's associations (J1* people wouldn't recognise themselves in such a banner for example).
Also, there is no true mention of J1, J1c2, J1c3c and J1c3d's roles in the spread of afroasiatic and Northeast Caucasian languages (Maciamo, if you have enough time, PM me and I'll provide interesting information about all this).

But apart from all this, I think the passage about J1b's association with G2a (probably correlated with Indo-european too in a sense) is the most positive point: Indeed, there are too few people willing to discuss about this matter, you innovated and pushed speculation at a further stage.
 
I think the J1 banner is kind of simple in the sense that it doesn't represents only one J1's associations (J1* people wouldn't recognise themselves in such a banner for example).
Also, there is no true mention of J1, J1c2, J1c3c and J1c3d's roles in the spread of afroasiatic and Northeast Caucasian languages (Maciamo, if you have enough time, PM me and I'll provide interesting information about all this)

You can send me more information. As for the banner it was a real dilemma. I represented mostly J1c3 because it is the most common variety of J1. I thought of using a photo of the Dome of the Rock with the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem to illustrate that J1 played a decisive role for both Islam and Judaism, but I found it too political, and I think it is better to avoid overt religious associations with haplogroups.

I chose the man with the camel because J1 originated with herders, J1 is overwhelmingly present in desert regions, and Bedouins belong mostly to J1.

I chose the Alhambra in Granada to have a trace of J1 men in Europe (and because I really like it architecturally).

Finally, I chose Petra because 1) the southern Levant is probably the region where Semitic languages first developed, 2) it is also the region from where J1c3 expanded in Bronze Age, 3) the Nabataeans almost certainly carried a lot of J1 lineages and were Aramaic speakers (so that the photos are not all about Arabic speakers), and 4) it is a fine example of classical architecture made by J1 people (reminding that the ancient Greeks, Etruscans and Romans were also carriers of some J1 lineages).

I really don't know what image I could use to represent Caucasian, Anatolian or European J1. Suggestions are welcome (with links to photos if possible). The photos should also be aesthetically pleasing.
 
some examples to represent the caucasian J1.
lezginka_2.jpg
lezginka.jpg
 
some examples to represent the caucasian J1.
View attachment 5342
View attachment 5343

I am not going to use pictures like that. A few guidelines to choose the pictures :

1) should represent population with a high frequency of the haplogroup, if possible prehistoric rather than modern as most modern populations are heavily mixed, and modern Y-haplogroups may hide former lineages (as I explained for R1b in Western Europe, but it is also surely the case for J1, since polygamy was and is still very widespread among J1 societies).

2) give preference objects or buildings made by the ancient people of the haplogroup, ideally authentic ancient objects showing what ancient people looked like (as I did for E1b1b and J2).

3) pictures must be reasonably beautiful and not copyrighted (or available for purchase).


Caucasian J1 is pretty much limited to the Kubachis, Kaitaks, Dargins and Avars. However, as these people still practice polygamy (or at least gave it up recently), their high percentage of J1 might be fairly recent. As these are very small and isolated populations, it is possible that a few dominant male lineages replaced most of the other lineages within the last 1000 years only. In that case, Caucasian J1 may have little to do with the original autosomal J1 ancestor from which they descend. Until ancient DNA proves that J1 was indeed a common lineage in these populations since ancient times (Neolithic, Bronze Age or Iron Age), I would rather refrain from even thinking of them as quintessentially J1 populations.
 
But, ¿isn't the Caucasian J1 different from the Arabian one (subclades)? I mean, ¿why this Caucasian ethnic groups showing very high J1 cannot be autosomally more of an especific subclade which fits in the West Asian admixture?

There's no evidence suggesting the contrary. Some J1 could perfectly be native to the Caucasus or a close region (IMHO), being the dominant genetic impact in various groups.

Again, more deep clade tests would probably help on this.
 
I am not going to use pictures like that. A few guidelines to choose the pictures :

1) should represent population with a high frequency of the haplogroup, if possible prehistoric rather than modern as most modern populations are heavily mixed, and modern Y-haplogroups may hide former lineages (as I explained for R1b in Western Europe, but it is also surely the case for J1, since polygamy was and is still very widespread among J1 societies).

2) give preference objects or buildings made by the ancient people of the haplogroup, ideally authentic ancient objects showing what ancient people looked like (as I did for E1b1b and J2).

3) pictures must be reasonably beautiful and not copyrighted (or available for purchase).


Caucasian J1 is pretty much limited to the Kubachis, Kaitaks, Dargins and Avars. However, as these people still practice polygamy (or at least gave it up recently), their high percentage of J1 might be fairly recent. As these are very small and isolated populations, it is possible that a few dominant male lineages replaced most of the other lineages within the last 1000 years only. In that case, Caucasian J1 may have little to do with the original autosomal J1 ancestor from which they descend. Until ancient DNA proves that J1 was indeed a common lineage in these populations since ancient times (Neolithic, Bronze Age or Iron Age), I would rather refrain from even thinking of them as quintessentially J1 populations.


I attached depictions of Semites in ancient times and, as far as J1* is concerned, I put these pictures:
37c0da8d5ad8.jpg
33314088.040Anthropomorphicvase.jpg

They are both derived from Hurro-Urartian culture, a culture which Roy King links to J1* with DYS388=13 (and, in a more global perspective, to Northeast Caucasian languages).
 

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But Georgians are predominantly G2a (even if small pockets of J1 exist like in most of Europe). Why would I use that photo for J1 ?
According to our DNA project so far Georgian G2a tends to be concentrated in the east and north-east of the country. West and south-west Georgia is predominantly J2a and J1 with some R1b1.
Our J1* members come from the area where the Vani finds were discovered, that's why I thought they might be useful.
 
According to this report in the Middle East was the domestication of horses 9,000 years ago, at least 4,000 earlier than in Central Asia!

"The al-Maqar civilisation is a very advanced civilisation of the Neolithic period. This site shows us clearly, the roots of the domestication of horses 9,000 years ago"

They found old remnants of the horses in the Arabian Peninsula. I think it has something to do with J1.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14658678
 
According to this report in the Middle East was the domestication of horses 9,000 years ago, at least 4,000 earlier than in Central Asia!

"The al-Maqar civilisation is a very advanced civilisation of the Neolithic period. This site shows us clearly, the roots of the domestication of horses 9,000 years ago"

They found old remnants of the gorses in the Arabian Peninsula. I think it has something to do with J1.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14658678

They could have domesticated horses for their skin, meat and milk, just like cows or goats/sheep. But the steppe people were the first to tame horses to ride them.

In any case, it is very unlikely that J1 was already in the Arabian peninsula 9000 years ago as recent evidence point at a Neolithic dispersal from the Taurus-Zagros mountains. I would rather foresee haplogroups E1b1b and T.
 
They could have domesticated horses for their skin, meat and milk, just like cows or goats/sheep. But the steppe people were the first to tame horses to ride them.
Ok, thanks. But maybe this has something to do with J1* folks?

Or maybe J2*, but there's not so much of J2* in the Arabian Peninsula, so I'm not sure about that.


EDIT

I do agree with you! Before J1 arrived in Arabia the folks that lived there were more likely E1b1b, T, (maybe some L from hg. LT) and F*.
 

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