Dedicated haplogroup pages

Hurro-Urartian culture was probably more J2, G and R1b than J1.

That depends, if you consider the Alarodian link, J1* surely was a major marker.

In any case, it is very unlikely that J1 was already in the Arabian peninsula 9000 years ago as recent evidence point at a Neolithic dispersal from the Taurus-Zagros mountains.

Which is precisely why Hurro-Urartian provides a stunning link with Northeast Caucasian, the link between those two is primarly J1* with J2a4b* for the Nakh speakers... But, as Dienekes hypothesized, proto-Northeast Caucasian speakers most likely were J1* positive men.
 
That depends, if you consider the Alarodian link, J1* surely was a major marker.

Which is precisely why Hurro-Urartian provides a stunning link with Northeast Caucasian, the link between those two is primarly J1* with J2a4b* for the Nakh speakers... But, as Dienekes hypothesized, proto-Northeast Caucasian speakers most likely were J1* positive men.

That is because you still think that the Northeast Caucasus was peopled by J1 men in ancient times. I am convinced that it isn't the case. The polygamy thing is enough to spread one Y-haplogroup like a bushfire (in genealogical terms, within a few centuries, or a millennia at most). The Caucasus region has ethnic groups that are predominantly J1, others that are J2, others G2a, and others still that are quite mixed. Yet, autosomal comparisons show very little differences between them.

The K=12 admixtures from the Dodecad don't show any significant difference of 'West Asian' among the Dagestani (Lezgins, Urkarah, Stalskoe), Armenians, Abhkazians, Georgians, Ossetians, Adygei, Chechens or even Iranians, despite having completely different Y-DNA. What differentiate them are the percentages of West European (highest in the Dagestani, lowest in the Chechens), East European (higher in the North Caucasus) and Mediterranean (higher in the South Caucasus). There is a clearer Y-DNA correlation there, as populations with higher West European have more R1b, those with higher East European have more R1a. No correlation with the Mediterranean admixture though (probably because it doesn't match any single haplogroup).

The Eurasia7 calculator shows even stronger similarities between all Caucasian populations.

Here is what we have :

- Caucasians are very close autosomally, yet so divergent in Y-DNA frequencies
- many populations have extremely high frequencies of a single haplogroup (54% of G2a for the Adygei, 84% of J1 for the Dargins, 88% of J2 for the Ingush)
- there is little haplogroup diversity, especially among ethnic groups where one haplogroup exceeds 50% of the lineages.

What can this all mean ? In my opinion, it almost certainly means that local chieftains/kings have spread their own Y-DNA among their ethnic group for a few centuries. There might have been a lot of different haplogroup before that happened, as attested by larger populations (Georgians, Armenians, Azeri).
 
I must admit the last explanation makes sense, so you are probably right. However, I still think the non Arabic types have a different repercussion autosomally speaking (not Southwest Asian), which could perfectly be the West Asian admixture. But in the Caucasus, seems the vast majority comes from G2a and J2 peoples, so it's not possible to get any aproximation.
 
Maciamo, do you think Semitic is a Bronze age language?
Can you tell us more about its genetic implications?
 
Maciamo, do you think Semitic is a Bronze age language?
Can you tell us more about its genetic implications?

I would say I am reasonably sure that the Semitic languages date from the Neolithic. If you look at the oldest attested Semitic language (Akkadian), it's already quite diverged from Proto-Semitic, and this is over 4500 years ago. Where I'm less certain is how old the Afroasiatic languages as a whole are.
 
I would say I am reasonably sure that the Semitic languages date from the Neolithic. If you look at the oldest attested Semitic language (Akkadian), it's already quite diverged from Proto-Semitic, and this is over 4500 years ago. Where I'm less certain is how old the Afroasiatic languages as a whole are.

Taranis, where would you place the Semitic language Homeland?
Also,With which linguistic family group do you associate first J1 people: North East Caucasian or Semitic?
 
Taranis, where would you place the Semitic language Homeland?
Also,With which linguistic family group do you associate first J1 people: North East Caucasian or Semitic?
J1 probably some isolated and caucasian groups in east anatolia an north mesopotamia.

afro-asiatic (proto semitic) came with E1b

proto semitic + J1c3 from mesopotamia = Semites.
 
J1 probably some isolated and caucasian groups in east anatolia an north mesopotamia.

afro-asiatic (proto semitic) came with E1b

proto semitic + J1c3 from mesopotamia = Semites

Thanks. Do you think that E1b was the most carried haplogroup in the Arabian Peninsula before J1c?
I would say that it was a mix Of E1b and T.
That big J1 founder effect in the Arabian Peninsula is really difficult to understand. Is it Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze age? Why were J1 people so successfull there?
 
J1 probably some isolated and caucasian groups in east anatolia an north mesopotamia.

afro-asiatic (proto semitic) came with E1b

proto semitic + J1c3 from mesopotamia = Semites.

It's not all that simple, J1 also got involved in the diversification of Cushitic and the spread of Berber and Egyptian...
At least two markers can be connected to Semitic ethnogenesis for now: E1b1b1c and J1c3d.
I would add J1c2, J1c3c, R1b1c and T to these two (J2a4h too... perhaps).

Mainly, we could associate Caucasian words within African branches of Afroasiatic with J1 and R1b1c.

Basicallly, E1b1b1c positive people probably spoke pre-proto-Semitic.
 
Thanks. Do you think that E1b was the most carried haplogroup in the Arabian Peninsula before J1c?
I would say that it was a mix Of E1b and T.
That big J1 founder effect in the Arabian Peninsula is really difficult to understand. Is it Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze age? Why were J1 people so successfull there?

actually calling even j1c3 "semitic" would be wrong cause the mutation for j1c3 took place somewhere in ancient mesopotamia and zagros. from there it mixed throughout the levant and mesopotamia with ancient semitic speakers like babylonians.

it moved from levant into the arabian peninsula and somewhere around saudi arabia and yemen it mutated into j1c3d, which is the real bedoin haplogroup because this subtype evolved among the semites and can only be connected to semitic influence.

I think before J1 moved into the peninsula there was more archaic F*. E* is also possible but not a must.
 
J1 is a complex and diverse haplogroup.
Ideologies, religions and identities are always related to the history of J1, so the sub-haplogroups are fundamental for the history and expansion of this decisive antique civilization-maker and religion-maker haplogroup

As November of 2011 we have:

J1* - Small pockets of STRs waiting for a SNP and for a history in Eurasia and Africa.

J1a - M62. Old SNP . A singleton found in a Crimean Tatar of Uzbekistan

J1b - M365. Originally found in Eastern Anatolia and in Georgia. Now we have two small hotspots in Northern Iran and in Western Iberia and thinly scattered cases in Devon, England, the French Pyrenees and in Belgium. The Caspian Iranian cases and the Portuguese-Brazilian cases are matching in more or less 2000 years, a historical TMRCA dating to the Fall the Roman Empire. Pretty distinctive modal haplotype associated to J1b and a basal branch of the J1 haplogroup. The distinctive J1b modal haplotype is usually associated with the Ancient Iranian languages and peoples in Eastern Anatolia and Northern Iran.

J1c - L136 and the big P58 group. The J1c3d (L147) is the traditional Arid Pastoralism J1-Deep South usually associated with the Semitic imaginary. Monotheism, Deserts, Camels, Jews, Arabs et Caterva. Desinformed people will take this important J1 sub-haplogroup as the totality of the J1 experience, what is a mistake committed for begginers in genetic genealogy.

J1d- Z1834 (plus more Z SNPs discovered in November of 2011) or the bulk of the DYS388=13 cases

We can observe in Jim's map of J1 388=13 almost a precise straight diagonal line to the West of the Caucasus, Dagestan, Azerbaijan, Eastern Anatolia, Pontus, Armenia, Northen Iraq, Syria and Lebanon. To the East of this line J1 388=13 is rare in Northern Iran and in the Southern Caspian shores, where the rare J1b types can be found and 388=13 is also rare to the Southern semi-arid areas where the "Semitic" P58+ L147+ types are dominant. 388=13 is also present and thinly spreaded in Greece, Eastern Europe and parts of Western Europe. It looks like the three mentioned types of J1 (Z1834, L147 and M365) had a completely different history and a completely different pattern of migrations and expansions. They were not living together and they were not moving together because they are found in different places with different frequencies. The smallest and rarest SNP, J1b M365 is completely absent in several populations where 388=13 is found and L147 is dominant. In the detailed SMGF database there are only two J1b types hotspots: in Northern Iran and in Portugal, so J1b could be perhaps one of the elements in the individuality of the Portuguese language and Portuguese Empire in Brazil where J1b is regularly found in most of the regions. No J1b was found in the Mediterranean Sea. Probably Z1834 participated in all the ethnic and political movements across the Z1834 divide line to the West, since the Neolithic, the Bronze Age, the Persian Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire, Byzantium, the Ottoman Empire.
 
Taranis, where would you place the Semitic language Homeland?
Also,With which linguistic family group do you associate first J1 people: North East Caucasian or Semitic?

I must admit that I can't tell you at this point (read: I'll get back to this later). I must say this, however: a part of the answer to this problems goes hand in hand with the question where the Proto-Afroasiatic homeland was.
 
actually calling even j1c3 "semitic" would be wrong cause the mutation for j1c3 took place somewhere in ancient mesopotamia and zagros. from there it mixed throughout the levant and mesopotamia with ancient semitic speakers like babylonians.

it moved from levant into the arabian peninsula and somewhere around saudi arabia and yemen it mutated into j1c3d, which is the real bedoin haplogroup because this subtype evolved among the semites and can only be connected to semitic influence.

I think before J1 moved into the peninsula there was more archaic F*. E* is also possible but not a must.

Calling J1c3 "semitic" is indeed, gross, it is too basal to be deemed Semitic as two of its subclades (J1c3a and J1c3b) have nothing to do with the spread of Semitic.
It is a mistake however, to believe that J1c3d first appeared in Southwest Arabia since most of the J1c3 positive men in the northern levant are in turn positive for L147.1... And as we both know, it is a region of YSTR diveristy.
So it must have a more northerly node, probably around Syria.
 
I would say I am reasonably sure that the Semitic languages date from the Neolithic. If you look at the oldest attested Semitic language (Akkadian), it's already quite diverged from Proto-Semitic, and this is over 4500 years ago. Where I'm less certain is how old the Afroasiatic languages as a whole are.

I agree with that.
 
It's not all that simple, J1 also got involved in the diversification of Cushitic and the spread of Berber and Egyptian...
At least two markers can be connected to Semitic ethnogenesis for now: E1b1b1c and J1c3d.
I would add J1c2, J1c3c, R1b1c and T to these two (J2a4h too... perhaps).

Mainly, we could associate Caucasian words within African branches of Afroasiatic with J1 and R1b1c.

Basicallly, E1b1b1c positive people probably spoke pre-proto-Semitic.

That sounds about right.
 
Do you agree with Andrew Kitchen's Bayesian analysis or Nicholls and Ryder's excerpt regarding the dates and breakup?

That's very difficult to say considering that the two papers give relatively close dates (3750 BCE vs 3100-2400 BCE). Besides, I don't like discontinuous thinking. Languages (like genes and most other things) evolve progressively. When are we to say that one language stops being Proto-Semitic and becomes Semitic instead ? It didn't just happen like that in one day, nor in a few years or a few generations. Even if the change was pretty fast it still took centuries. So what does it matter if the progressive transition took place between 3800 and 3100 BCE or between 3100 and 2400 BCE, or during both periods ?
 
That's very difficult to say considering that the two papers give relatively close dates (3750 BCE vs 3100-2400 BCE). Besides, I don't like discontinuous thinking. Languages (like genes and most other things) evolve progressively. When are we to say that one language stops being Proto-Semitic and becomes Semitic instead ? It didn't just happen like that in one day, nor in a few years or a few generations. Even if the change was pretty fast it still took centuries. So what does it matter if the progressive transition took place between 3800 and 3100 BCE or between 3100 and 2400 BCE, or during both periods ?

Good point, it in fact mainly proves that the language is thriving... But the main dissention is directed upon the mundane judgement of conservatism between East Semitic and Central Semitic: In other words, which branch is to be deemed most conservative?
Then, the second mundane problem is the classification of arabic... But these are other matters.
 
Maciamo, did you decide not to do I2? Or do you have too little time?

Or too controversial? :LOL:
 
Maciamo, did you decide not to do I2? Or do you have too little time?

Or too controversial? :LOL:

I would like to create separate pages for each subclade of I2, but I am wondering I have enough to write about for each. I2 clades have not moved very much since the Mesolithic, except perhaps I2a2 in Southeast Europe, but this issue remains indeed controversial. Then what pictures am I going to use to represent each subclade ? There isn't really any country or culture that is I2-dominant except the Bosnians and Croatians. I would be especially hard to make a page about your rare haplogroup I2c. Your suggestions are welcome though.
 

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