The Albanian language

[Yetos]

Its odd how some peoples posts that you/we reply to disappear!

Anyway, the INX link is also based on modern ( mussolini era) linguistic link which serve no purpose in my want of knowledge for this albanian people/language.

I presented logical questions trying to establish what these neighbours of ancient albanian spoke and why there is no link with them. FBS mad a nice comment but it was removed?
Clearly the link , states that Dalmatian language up to 16th century was illyrian based and was not linked to albanian.
Messapic , once said was also illyrian yet has nothing to do with albanian language, so what I am trying to say , is if these ancient neigbours of albanian where illyrian, then why is there no link with these languages.
If messapic , north picene old dalmatian are all different yet all called from the illyrian family , then ..........
If dardanian is a thracian,macedonian,illyrian mix then where is evidence of this language and it cannot be linked with the dardanian of the troad in anatolia because then that states the illyrian where also in anatolia.

Clearly, what i gathered is that every "illyrian" language was different and albanian was a language fabricated by it surrounding neighbours languages over time and had a chance to develop due due to its isolation in the mountains.

As we know , some languages can be forceful and domineering on other languages over time, like slavic.

The next part I want to know is what did the epirotes speak, the chaones, Mollossians etc etc, there are 14 tribes, was the messapic people in southern Italy who welcomed pyrrhus a epirote language and not an illyrian one. If so, then this eliminates the link with albanian.

There needs to be clarity in ancient albanians neighbours to find out who or where these albanians are

BTW, the tocco family where from southern Italy and was granted a claim from crusader days due to their historical links with the lombards
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocco_family

There is also this to contend with
Since it was difficult to defeat Bato ( dardanian) militarily, Philip V ( macedonian) drew up a plan to set the large Germanic/Celtic of the Bastarnae against him. He proposed to them that he would open a way to the Dardanian State so that the Bastarnae could settle there for a while and later continue on their way through Illyria, finally reaching Italy. Philip's purpose was to wipe out the Dardanians and settle the Bastarnae in their lands, and send the Bastarnae to Itlay to lay it waste, leaving their women and children in Dardania. It was up to Monunius, the brother of Bato to confront the Bastarnae, as he succeeded Bato in 176 BC^[8].

We have to contend with this bastanae people who originally germanic, deveolped due to its area in the carpathian mountains some dacian linguistic traits.
I always said that tribal languages are always Maternal while nationalistic languages are Paternal

there are a lot of maybe,
and a lot of guess,
Bastarnae could be, as anyone above the Cizarec's Line
but as Albanian is mostly after Anju and as Arbanon much before state of Arber,
so the known time of exist is about 1000 AD,
as language it is developed much North of today area,

there is also another Story that say that they are Visigoths from Byzantine Murcia that moved to Sicily and from there to ALbania after the Maniakis revolt.
Theories are theories,

the major point is that in known Historical chronicles it start to appear at about 1000 AD but it contains many Local non Northen Linguistic,
if you search History same times we have the foundation of Arbanon, the revolt of Maniakis etc,

after that we have establishment of Arber and then Albania,
the problem is that we have no evidence of big migration of population, that means that population existed already in the area
the only genetic differences is that both Arberesh and Arbanites have very lower quantities of E-V13 and big of I2b,
it can be a logical difference until a clear total apart difference,

the names you mention in another post show Normand or Gothic Germanic and Slavic as also the toponymes, a connection which fits exactly with Taranis thoughts from North of Line origin,

on the other hand the only before 1000 Ad exist of word Albania is Alvanopolis of Ptolemy, since no other evidence is to be serious except a ring which can be a Byzantine bless.

now lets see where in Balkans exist the name,
the first Historical known are the Dacian tribe of Albocense, mentioned by Maximus of Moesia,
we know that Dacians had 2 colonies in Illyria, and one is Germidava, probably build by Albocense and took name after them as Alvanopolis,
the possibilities that Alvanopolis create a 'nation' inside roman and byzantine empire are just a few, who did it?
but the possibilities to create an army under the bless of Byzantines is Big,

theories are theories so lets see some

my personal point is that Maniakis took Army from the North wild mountain parts of Romania or even North,
Went to Italy and after the troubles with Con/polis he return and Build Arvanon.
with Strong possibility that Germidava's primary language as also the later Huniades time migration

another theory gives that they came from Murcia to Sicily to Albania also as army,

another theory that I heard in a discussion yesterday,(first time I heard it and it can be just nonsess) about the early known names gives a para-Slavic tribe that did not came in touch with Cyrillic


Anyway the truth is that contains a vocabulary that fits with all known local area languages of past,
but its basic Form is new from North (Slavo-Germanic family developement)

so we probably speak about a language that prevailed all others but also assimilate all the before of,
and we do not have a huge nation devastation since Gennetic fits with the area major Hgs



PS I don't deny the Bastarnae case you say , simply I do not know about it and need to search,
but me personal believe is that we probably have an underground connection from Moesia to Albania since Germidava's establishment

[kesi]

First of all don't trust Albanian names, cause they change through istory and by Hodza, Hodza order that no religious name must be given

I have to say Hoxha couldn't have influenced Albanian clan names cause he came to power in 1944 ..the name do change it's true but most phares or fis know their original name, when it split or where they come from. The Fis of Kin identity is still very strong among Albanians (be them Albanians or Arvanites). For instance one of the pillars of the Kanun of Lek Dukagjin - whose origin is much earlier than the 15 cent when the canon is thought to have first been collected as it was a verbal law- is kin loyalty.
The Kanun is based on four pillars:

• Honour (Albanian: Nderi)
• Hospitality (Albanian: Mikpritja)
• Right Conduct (Albanian: Sjellja)
• Kin Loyalty (Albanian: Fis)

2) a) is Alvanopolis like Alviona (England) and not albanopolis
b) Alvanopolis of Ptolemy according the rest city names are given fits exactly with Dacian Germidava, Greek Thermidava. so if you follow Ptolemy then surely your insist drops cause you know that Germidava was Dacian colony,

3) the names of the tribes you mentioned are Thracian like Bryges-Phrygians or Illyrian, and some exist in Greece next to Pelasgian Argos (Atallante)


4) the thing that we must understand is that Albanian language has its own Grim's laws, meaning that is a language, but when we search the Arbanites and Albanians as toponyms and language we find big imports,
the answer is that Albanian was not a local language, but imported when Germidava was established, and then grew,
the history gives Dyrrachion to be a non Albanian city at about 1000-1500 (can't remember writer but I will find, that is why i did not answer, and the other reason is that I am looking for Arbanites surnames and toponyms)
cause Albanians are mentioned to be 1/4 of population.
so what happened,
the answer is at Maniakis army which after the revolt against Con/polis create a unification movement, that by time become a nation, (that happens always, when a nation is created, and we do not make nations according HG)
the later history of Epirus Despotate, something that you must read to understand,
then read about Huniades Ουνιαδης and Anju origin, and you will understand why from 1/4 of population become primary,

the connection of Albanian with Elder Nation tribes is another thing,
Just consider that Arbanites Castle-Prison-Ακροπολις is Μπουρτζι Burgi and is not connected with Greek Πυργος
but with Germanic Burg ( a Normands or Goths word?)
the existance from Pelasgian to Illyrian to Messapian to Thracian is because the unification movement was happened when today Albania was multinational.

a good example to you is word Bucuresti Bukur + nest or εστια, and Alba Lullia (Huniades-Anju Homelands)

so Taranis is correct about Cizarec's line, simply the pass of the line had happened by 2 colonies that Dacians create under the line and one is the one you mention Alvanopolis or Germidava,

Search for ArBanites toponyms and vocabulary and History, and then you will understand,

words like Κουγκι Kunki the word that Arbanites used for monastery- holy place - cemetery is similar to Dacian Kongaionion (Konka+aionion)
words like Zaratoba (toponym) meaning old town-village (compare Zara with Stara)
let me finish the reading and I will you more,

connection of Albanians with Epirotes (except chammerians) with Albanian does not exist,
Chammerians are a unique case

btw I am reading Bintliff works if you are interested

http://albter.com/?page_id=233

[kesi]

What I have read is that Bastarnae did not settle in Dardania or Illyria cause they were beaten in battle by King Monunius. Also, Messapic shares some words with Albanian language

[Endri]

What I have read is that Bastarnae did not settle in Dardania or Illyria cause they were beaten in battle by King Monunius. Also, Messapic shares some words with Albanian language

Well "Mess" in Messapian (meaning "middle" from PIE *medhyo) is exactly the same ("Mes") and has the same meaning even in modern Albanian.

I don't know if the word "ujë" for water in Albanian is a loan word or from PIE *ap?

[kesi]

I am not sure Endri, it's true "mes" means exactly "middle" but Alb. uje “water” seems to be from PIE: wod-(or/en-)-water

The shared Messapic lexical units with Albanian I know are:

Messapian Iuppiter Menzanas (divinity):
Illyrian mandos – small horse
PIE mendi̯os
Alb. mëz, mâz "pony",
Thrac. Mezēnai "divine horseman"

Anthroponyms
Dasius -Latin form of a Messapic name from southern Italy, Dazos in southern Italy
Dasius-Illyrian anthroponym
Dash - Alb (ram)

Bilia-Messapic - (Alb bijë “daughter”)
bagola, bagula (cf. Alb bajgë “dung”)
musso “ass” (cf. Alb mushk “mule”).

The change of o to a is attested only in Gothic, Albanian and Lithuanian. The Greek Aphrodite appears in the form Aprodita (Alb: Aferdita – literally near-day)

Messapian placename
Bréntion (from Messapian bréndon, bréntion) (Brindisi, Italy)
Alb: bri, brî (pl. brirë, brinë) "horn; antler" [< late Proto-Albanian *brina < earlier *brena]

[Endri]

I am not sure Endri, it's true "mes" means exactly "middle" but Alb. uje “water” seems to be from PIE: wod-(or/en-)-water

Julius Pokorny derives their ethnonym Messapii from Messapia, interpreted as "(the place) Amid waters", Mess- from Proto-Indo-European *medhyo-, "middle", and -apia from Proto-Indo-European *ap-, "water" (cf. another toponym, Salapia, "salt water").

I read it here

[kesi]

Yes but there is not just one PIE root for the word “water” and the PIE root for Alb “uje” seems to be “wed/wod”-wet, at least as per this table:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...European_roots

PIE root: *wed – wet
*wód-r̥- "water": Eng. wæter/water, OCS вода (voda), Russ. вода (voda), Gk. ὕδωρ (hydōr), Lat. unda, Lith. vanduo, Ltv.ūdens, Skr. उदन् (udán) , Alb. ujë, Ir. uisce/uisge, Hitt. (wātar), Arm. գետ (get), Toch. wär/war, Umb. utur,Goth.(watō), Welsh gwer, ON vatn, Kashmiri odūr, Thrac. udrēnas, Gm. wazzar/Wasser, Phryg. bedu, Pol.woda, OPruss. Wundan

Then there is *h₂ep:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...ropean/h₂ep-

and *akʷ-āwhich cognates with the (Mess)Ap (ia)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/akʷā-

Early proto-Albanian for “uje” is “udnja” correct me If I am wrong.

[Yetos]

A very interesting word.Can you give me a link?


http://soltdm.com/sources/inscr/kaga/kaga_e.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogaionon

Yes but in Greek alphabet

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Σού�...πρωτίας

Μούργκα (1.340 m), Ζαβρούχο (1.137 m), Τούρλια (1.082 m)
το Κούγκι και η Κιάφα

toponymes κουγκι -Kounki was the monastery near the cemetary of Zaloggo
Zaloggo by it shelf means Black rivendale
Alb Za = Black
Greek Λογγος (Λογχη -spear split narrow) = rivendale
also in Messologgi Μεσολογγι the Arbanites named the church Kunki

William Martin Leake
Jacob Bartoldy
Γουδας etc


other toponymes in area

Σαμονιβα Samo niva (new Samo)
Αβαρινο Avarino
Παλιοκατουντα old Katoynta Old village or old street (Gr Palios= old)
Κονταντες (7nth village?)
Κιαφα kiafa ???
Τσεκουρι Tsekouri hammer Slavic Sokyra Sekira
Γκιοναλα Gionala ??? (either something with St-John, or with owl-bird γκιωνης)

[zanipolo]

now lets see where in Balkans exist the name,
the first Historical known are the Dacian tribe of Albocense, mentioned by Maximus of Moesia,
we know that Dacians had 2 colonies in Illyria, and one is Germidava, probably build by Albocense and took name after them as Alvanopolis,
the possibilities that Alvanopolis create a 'nation' inside roman and byzantine empire are just a few, who did it?
but the possibilities to create an army under the bless of Byzantines is Big,

theories are theories so lets see some

my personal point is that Maniakis took Army from the North wild mountain parts of Romania or even North,
Went to Italy and after the troubles with Con/polis he return and Build Arvanon.
with Strong possibility that Germidava's primary language as also the later Huniades time migration

another theory gives that they came from Murcia to Sicily to Albania also as army,

another theory that I heard in a discussion yesterday,(first time I heard it and it can be just nonsess) about the early known names gives a para-Slavic tribe that did not came in touch with Cyrillic


Anyway the truth is that contains a vocabulary that fits with all known local area languages of past,
but its basic Form is new from North (Slavo-Germanic family developement)

so we probably speak about a language that prevailed all others but also assimilate all the before of,
and we do not have a huge nation devastation since Gennetic fits with the area major Hgs



PS I don't deny the Bastarnae case you say , simply I do not know about it and need to search,
but me personal believe is that we probably have an underground connection from Moesia to Albania since Germidava's establishment

Albocense ....interesting tribe. A dacian tribe living in the mountains between the Parthini in modern NW albania and the pederatae ( if I spell it correctly) in northern Thessally. Actually where moved slightly northward in roman times to reside is the roman province of lesser Moesia

[FBS]

To whom(ever) is administrating this thread:

I would like to know who has removed my post(s) and of the others from this thread and why? Is there some kind of censorship in this forum? As far as I remember I have not insulted or attacked anyone, so it would be decent to let me/us know the reason why.

Thank you

[FBS]

Yetos, please check your Albanian before posting since you are giving incorrect translations for "ZA".

In Albanian "Black" is "Zi" which also means "Mourning" (for the dead).

"Za" in Gheg Albanian is "voice"; in Tosk is "Zë".

Lug in Albanian means a lot of things. "Lugë/Luga" iz "spoon"; "Lug/Lugu" can mean "Draw" in geographical terms or "Hollow", "Glen", "Dale", etc; or "Concavity" (i/e Lug(ë)t), "Lugina" is usually "Valley".

Hope this helps.

[Taranis]

To whom(ever) is administrating this thread:

I would like to know who has removed my post(s) and of the others from this thread and why? Is there some kind of censorship in this forum? As far as I remember I have not insulted or attacked anyone, so it would be decent to let me/us know the reason why.

Thank you

They're not deleted, and you have not done any offense, but I have moved certain off-topic discussions into this thread.

[Yetos]

Yetos, please check your Albanian before posting since you are giving incorrect translations for "ZA".

In Albanian "Black" is "Zi" which also means "Mourning" (for the dead).

"Za" in Gheg Albanian is "voice"; in Tosk is "Zë".

Lug in Albanian means a lot of things. "Lugë/Luga" iz "spoon"; "Lug/Lugu" can mean "Draw" in geographical terms or "Hollow", "Glen", "Dale", etc; or "Concavity" (i/e Lug(ë)t), "Lugina" is usually "Valley".

Hope this helps.

the translation is not given by me,
and the word Zaloggo means black rivendale

maybe in Albanian would be Zilugina but the toponyme for centuries now is Zaloggo

[FBS]

They're not deleted, and you have not done any offense, but I have moved certain off-topic discussions into this thread.

Thanks for putting the relevant comments back into this thread.

[FBS]

Yetos, you've reminded me of some words that I completely forgot that they existed in the use of Albanians of Kosova, maybe it is used in Albania too.

Zallogë/Zalloga actualy is a word/name that is used for something old (old black shoes mostly) but generally would define useless or worthless things that are just piled, old and ugly, gloomy, something that is all in tatters. For a person "Zallogë" would be used for someone who shows "unrefined" behavior/status or for a useless person.

Another one that I would like to share (I do not know if it is useful or not) is the word "Llugë" that means messy, tied up, non-resolvable. You will not find these words in the standard Albanian nor in Tosk dialect (please someone correct me if you have the info regarding Tosk).

[kesi]

Παλιοκατουντα old Katoynta Old village or old street (Gr Palios= old)

- maybe "katun" - Alb.=small village, hamlet hence the offensive "katundar"-villager

Κιαφα kiafa ???

- "qafa"-Alb.=neck, but we also use to describe terrain like qafa e malit (neck of the mountain)

in case you haven't seen it, here is Leake's dictionary with the words in Greek with English translation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Djx...page&q&f=false

[Yetos]

Yetos, you've reminded me of some words that I completely forgot that they existed in the use of Albanians of Kosova, maybe it is used in Albania too.

Zallogë/Zalloga actualy is a word/name that is used for something old (old black shoes mostly) but generally would define useless or worthless things that are just piled, old and ugly, gloomy, something that is all in tatters. For a person "Zallogë" would be used for someone who shows "unrefined" behavior/status or for a useless person.

Another one that I would like to share (I do not know if it is useful or not) is the word "Llugë" that means messy, tied up, non-resolvable. You will not find these words in the standard Albanian nor in Tosk dialect (please someone correct me if you have the info regarding Tosk).

"Zallogë" would be used for someone who shows "unrefined" behavior/status or for a useless person.

hahaha watch for Σελος and Σεληνιασμος (Lunatic) Seleniasmos

interesting although a possible connection with moon Σεληνη and the punishment disease she could grand (madness, mental illness, mania etc)

[Yetos]

for me the discussion is after an end,

All I wanted to say is just don't believe each 'food' is given in school books, and by some 'maestro' of stupidity,

Kessi thanks for the link about Leake, Although it is poor and easy written, I admit it is more scientific and a better handle than the one of some others like Zeus10 videos or Ar Kolla or whoever

in early 1900 there was a guy in Greek Akademia who 'proved' whatever and claim whatever
today people laugh with him
same happens in all Balkanic countries,

So .... for you just realize what has been told in this thread, and see beyond of what TV and Media and school books want you to see,
they just want to create control of Thought via emotions,
when I was 10 I thought as Goverments want me to think, now that I am above 45 I know better, and can judge better,

Hal Fao make your own dreams, and don't dream the dream of others,

Hope you guys be fine scientists, and expel the bad spell of modern 'scientific' stupidity of our times.


PS
.... Viking mt DNA can come
From Normandy
From Sicily
from Ucraine and Varragian Guards
from Crusaders
or even from a 'royal' marriage - alliance

[Yetos]

- maybe "katun" - Alb.=small village, hamlet hence the offensive "katundar"-villager

- "qafa"-Alb.=neck, but we also use to describe terrain like qafa e malit (neck of the mountain)

in case you haven't seen it, here is Leake's dictionary with the words in Greek with English translation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Djx...page&q&f=false

ok again

Παλιοκατουντα from
Greek Παλιος (Palios = Old) + κατουντα katoynta -katunta Arban/ka narrow street, small village (Turkish mahala Greek οικισμος)

κιαφα kiafa spelled as it is written, if you want it in Latin alphabet, if who want to use ALb writing system then is qiafa
but in sound has no difference with kiafa of latin alphabet,

[Yetos]

Albocense ....interesting tribe. A dacian tribe living in the mountains between the Parthini in modern NW albania and the pederatae ( if I spell it correctly) in northern Thessally. Actually where moved slightly northward in roman times to reside is the roman province of lesser Moesia

Finally you get the point, the place of Albocense fits with today Alba Lullia in Romania, and the land of Huniades and Anju

[Finalise]

i apologize for all the nationalistic albanian approaches to studying the language, but sometimes we just cant help it >.<.

anyhow my comment is in 2 parts

1) on the illyrian origin: there is undeniably a link between albanian and illyrian, however to what degree is always up for debate. I honestly think albanian originally was a descendant of illyrian, middle/northern albania being the territorial nucleus of illyria, but it has heavily been latinized, germanicized, slavicized, turkified, greekified, anyhow u get my point... so nowadays that link is very weak.

2) i would like to know why many albanian loan words have the opposite meaning of their original intended one. ill give a few examples

for example:
the word - moter meaning "sister" instead of mother
- kau meaning "ox/bull" instead of the female cow

[Finalise]

sorry didnt finish my last post. also "verdhe" means yellow, instead of green as in italian "verde". I guess this a broader linguistic question. is this normal for other languages as well?

[Endri]

1) Italian "verde" means "green" not "grass"...as far as I know "grass" in Italian is "erba'

2) Idk if it is of your interest, even though not different meaning, is the word "Kopil" presumably from Dacian and in Albanian means "bastard child" while in Romanian (written copil) means simply "small child"...

And since I'm here, there's smth thats been bugging me. I tried searching in the internet but found nothing (I admit I didn't do a thorough research cause I have got no time to spare).

It's been bugging me the formation of the numbers 20-29(both Gheg and Tosk) and 40-49(only in Tosk). Basically all numbers from 10-99 in Albanian, except obviously 20 and 40 have a pretty clear etymology and are formed the same way as these numbers in english.

Exp:

English: Thirty-Three Tens, Fifty-Five Tens ect
Albanian: Tridhjetë (30)- Tre Dhjeta, Pesëdhjetë (50)-Pesë Dhjeta

Now twenty in Albanian is "Njëzet", literally meaning One Zet (?) and Forty is "Dyzet", literally meaning Two Zet (?).

This "Zet", presumably meaning 20, anyone has any idea what language it is? Is it a native word? A PIE word or a loan word (most likely)? First look i'd say is a Greek origin loan word but I don't know Greek so...

[FBS]

"Verdh" in Kosovo actually means "green", same as in Italian, but off course this we are correcting now due to the application of standard Albanian.

Regarding Zet, I did not find any explanation for this neither, I only know that "zece" is ten in Romanian.

[zanipolo]

"Verdh" in Kosovo actually means "green", same as in Italian, but off course this we are correcting now due to the application of standard Albanian.

Regarding Zet, I did not find any explanation for this neither, I only know that "zece" is ten in Romanian.

zet referred to albanians who migrated from Zeta highlands of montenegro to albania ........they where known as zeti in italian or zets if you want english

Zeta was its own duchy and IIRC got overun by serbians or bosnians - 15th century