The Albanian language

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1) To confuse or pronounce /t/ like /d/ , /k/ like /g/, /p/ like /b/ aren't very rare in albanian. Now i didn't know that Classical Greek /th/ turned into albanian /t/ since i'm no linguistic or try to be, but since /t/ and /d/ in albanian not rarely are pronounced the same couldn't it have happened during some period of time that /t/ became /d/?

/t/ did not become /d/ in Albanian. The *t sound that was inherited from Proto-Indo-European was unchanged, and unless it was previously changed in loanwords before their adoption into Albanian (or concern altogether non-IE loans), /t/ in Albanian should correspond with *t in PIE.

2) 'Ours' in albanian is 'Ynë". 'Jonë' doesn't exist in albanian sorry and 'Jon' is dialect.

Well, mea culpa.

3) Somewhere in some posts above i read smth about the word 'Toke" being the same with the Slav word 'Tok'. Toke in albanian means land or earth. Also in dialect exists the word 'Tok' which means 'Together'.

I did not say "it was the same". I said it was borrowed. However, "tok" is found in most Slavic languages and that it means "flow" or "current".
 
Just one correction. In Ukrainian the "g" becomes soft and is pronounced as in Czech and Slovak ("bereh"). I'm not sure about Belorusian.
 
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/t/ did not become /d/ in Albanian. The *t sound that was inherited from Proto-Indo-European was unchanged, and unless it was previously changed in loanwords before their adoption into Albanian (or concern altogether non-IE loans), /t/ in Albanian should correspond with *t in PIE.

Well you're the expert but when spoken 'Teti' and 'Deti' sound the same in albanian. Just sayin'.

I did not say "it was the same". I said it was borrowed. However, "tok" is found in most Slavic languages and that it means "flow" or "current".

'flow' in albanian is 'rrjedhë' and 'current' is 'rrymë'. So they have no obvious connection to the slavic word 'tok'.
 
I'd like to make a comment on "Breg(-det)". I would argue that it's native to neither languages (the Slavic family or Albanian). Why, because this gets clear when you look at cognates in other branches of Indo-European:

- Celtic has numerous cognates with this, all with the meaning 'high' or 'exalted'. For example 'Brig-' and '-briga' found in Celtiberian and Gaulish town names, for example the (latinized) name "Brigantium". This is the name of various Celtic towns, including modern-day Bragança (Portugal), Briançon (France) and Bregenz (Austria). It is also found in the Celtic deity name 'Brigantia', which is rendered in Irish as 'Brighid'. It's also found in modern Celtic languages as Welsh 'brig' (climax) and Scottish Gaelic 'brìg' (heap, pile).

- For the Germanic languages, examples are German 'Berg' (hill, mountain) and 'Burg' (castle). Also compare English '-burgh' and '-borough'.

- In Latin, 'fortis' ('strong', 'powerful'). There are numerous derivates in the Romance languages, as well as in English, including 'fort', 'force' and 'fortitude'.

- The word is also found in the other Satem language families. In Armenian, a cognate is 'bardzr' (բարձր), meaning 'high'. In Indo-Iranic, Avestan has the word 'berezant' meaning 'high' or 'lofty'.

From this, we can reconstruct the PIE word as 'bhereg´h', which would have been rendered as something akin to 'Brez-' in Balto-Slavic and 'Bredh' in Albanian. Since this isn't the case, I would argue that it's a loanword in both language families.



Disregarding the above, I must also disagree on this assessment. Assuming the word didn't arrive from a third source in both languages (which I find more plausible, see above), I would actually wager that the word arrived from Slavic into Albanian, and not the other way around. The reason is that the word is found in all branches of the Slavic languages:

West Slavic:
Czech 'břeh'
Slovak 'breh'
Polish 'brzeg'

East Slavic:
Russian 'bereg'
Ukrainian 'bereg'

South Slavic:
Croatian/Serbian: 'brijeg'
Slovenian 'breg'
Bulgarian 'bryag'

If the word was borrowed from Albanian into Slavic, we'd likely only see a borrowing from Albanian into South Slavic, not into other branches. The way things are, it's far more likely that the word entered into Proto-Slavic from somewhere else, and I'm pretty sure that the Proto-Slavs did not have any contact with the Proto-Albanians due to living at rather different locations, and by the time the Slavs entered the Balkan, the Slavic language family was probably already in the process of fragmentation.

or proto-slavic took this word from another source and Albanian form a different one. The original meaning for "brig" is a hill whereas in Albanian now this only means "shore" and nothing else as far as I know. We have the eg. for the word "preug" - prag (Alb).

Albs also have fort (strong) and burg (prison)
 
/t/ did not become /d/ in Albanian. The *t sound that was inherited from Proto-Indo-European was unchanged, and unless it was previously changed in loanwords before their adoption into Albanian (or concern altogether non-IE loans), /t/ in Albanian should correspond with *t in PIE.



Well, mea culpa.



I did not say "it was the same". I said it was borrowed. However, "tok" is found in most Slavic languages and that it means "flow" or "current".

first of all consonants (Th) as in thigh and (T) (tie) and (D) die - are quite similar in Albanian, so Thetis is easily rendered in Deti, like a child trying to say Deti says Theti.

As far as Toke, the meaning in Albanian is the opposite to the one in slavic, we can easily say they have nothing in common. Toke in Albanian is mud, land (property), earth (planet), so Toka=Terra, or the slavs borrowed this word from Albanian giving a different meaning.
 
1)

2) 'Ours' in albanian is 'Ynë". 'Jonë' doesn't exist in albanian sorry and 'Jon' is dialect.

.

What dialect is jone? When I was a child I always thought that the Ionian sea belonged to us due to the name. In fact, jon is a possessive pronoun used with names of feminine gender, eg:

(M) Deti im (my sea) - (F) Toka ime (my land)
Deti yt - (your sea) - Toka jote (your sea)
Deti i tij / e saj (his/her) - Toka e tij/e saj

Deti yne (our sea) - Toka jone (our land)
etc
 
I placed link in other Albanian threads in Eupedia .....look them up ............there is even a map

In modern society, there is no difference between a language and a dialect . As an example, if sicily was to gain independence do you think the sicilian dialect will still be called a sicilian dialect or a language in the new nation!

Where is this map? This is quite strange, a dialect is not equal to a language and as far as Albanian language is concerned, it has only the two main dialects I mentioned, related to two main tribes, tosk and geg, nothing else.
 
first of all consonants (Th) as in thigh and (T) (tie) and (D) die - are quite similar in Albanian, so Thetis is easily rendered in Deti, like a child trying to say Deti says Theti.

I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti".

As far as Toke, the meaning in Albanian is the opposite to the one in slavic, we can easily say they have nothing in common. Toke in Albanian is mud, land (property), earth (planet), so Toka=Terra, or the slavs borrowed this word from Albanian giving a different meaning.

I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").
 
word spelling even next to each other , region to region, tribe to tribe ( over a mountain or )differ, same as Albanian and its neighbors.
example in the baltic sea area all these had words which are clearly not related

Prussian. aglo 'rain':
Lithuanian. lietus 'rain'
and Latvian. lietus; rain

Prussian. assanis 'autumn'
Lithuanian. ruduo 'autumn',
Latvian. rudens; autumn

Prussian. panno 'fire'
Goth. fon
Lithuanian. ugnis 'fire'
Latvian. uguns 'fire


Can we sumerise what these different albanian words come from?
 
Where is this map? This is quite strange, a dialect is not equal to a language and as far as Albanian language is concerned, it has only the two main dialects I mentioned, related to two main tribes, tosk and geg, nothing else.

This is part of the article. i will find the language map


Nowadays, Albanian people can be divided into two major groups, the Ghegs (in the North) and the Tosks (in the South) (Note:see Y hg I), according to the Albanian dialect they speak, plus a number of cultural minorities, including the Gabels and the Jevgs. The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria, and are among the most politically,
economically and socially neglected groups in the country.
The so-called Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a
minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area
and claim an Egyptian origin.

gabels and jevgs are the other 2 dialects
 
word spelling even next to each other , region to region, tribe to tribe ( over a mountain or )differ, same as Albanian and its neighbors.
example in the baltic sea area all these had words which are clearly not related

Prussian. aglo 'rain':
Lithuanian. lietus 'rain'
and Latvian. lietus; rain

Prussian. assanis 'autumn'
Lithuanian. ruduo 'autumn',
Latvian. rudens; autumn

Prussian. panno 'fire'
Goth. fon
Lithuanian. ugnis 'fire'
Latvian. uguns 'fire


Can we sumerise what these different albanian words come from?

A few thoughts here:

- Old Prussian "Panno" (as well as Gothic "Fon") is derived from PIE *pewor ('fire'), which includes the English word "fire" as a cognate, as well as the Greek word 'pyr' (fire).

- "Ugnis"/"Uguns" is a cognate with Latin "igneus", as well as the Hindu deity name "Agni" (god of fire).

- "Ruduo"/"Rudens" is certainly related with the PIE word for "red" (*reudh-), which probably derives from the fact that leaves change their color to red in autumn.
 
I'm sorry to dismiss your hypothesis, but you're overlooking there however that the Greek language made a change here over time. In classical Greek, the letter Theta represented an aspirated dental plosive /tʰ/. It was only later that the Greek language shifted /tʰ/ to a dental fricative /θ/. In Albanian orthography, like in English, "th" represents an unvoiced dental fricative ( /θ/ ). If this was a borrowing from Classical Greek into (Proto-)Albanian, it would have been borrowed as "Teti"

How do we know it was not rendered into Albanian as Teti - notice the similarity with Deti. We don't know the history of this word. Also, it is claimed that Albanians do not have marine words, so where Deti (sea) came from, what about Anie (ship) etc.

I don't see how "Tokë" could be a cognate with "Terra", because I don't see how *k could be rendered as or shifted to *r (this is not found elsewhere in Albanian). "Terra" in turn derives from PIE *ters- ('dry'), which is also found for example in English "thirst".

In my opinion the Slavic word 'tok' is derived from PIE *tekw- which is for example also found in Greek "toxikon" (poison, hence English "toxic").

Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin. Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian? Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.
 
How do we know it was not rendered into Albanian as Teti - notice the similarity with Deti. We don't know the history of this word. Also, it is claimed that Albanians do not have marine words, so where Deti (sea) came from, what about Anie (ship) etc.



Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin. Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian? Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.

Sorry guys but nobody ever read Iapetoc, but I am sure all read the Bullshit of A Kolla

Breg Deti
Greek words Βροχη Virb Bρεχω - Βρεχ-ομαι Βρεχ χ is family of χκγ latin kgc and Β το family of Bpvf
so the word seems to be from same family origin Bρεχ (brech ch as h in Herod) and breg
Now Deti and Thetis
Thetis was God but Virb δυω or Dye or baptise, or make-get wet is also in all forms like noun δυτης etc
remember that aphrodite was ανα-δυω-μενη ana-duo-meni
so the word is simmilar rooted the english word Diver -Dive
in fact is more close due to t and not v

about the word anie (ship) just remember that Athenean word was ναιας-ναυς naias-naus and virb was νεω neo and in plural νηαι-nie (ships)
the root is old Pelasgian - Peleset and is the same root with the Christian Patriarch Noah,
or from Greek times colonies changed through time from naia to anie
personnaly I believe is not an IE word but an Arcado-Cypriot - Levantine- Minor asian

Now about Thetis or Tethys
the Virb Theo Θεω means run Fast, so God = Θεος = The one who runs extremely fast,
in Homer we found her as ηεριη meaning very fast, the other one is Εως eos (morning light)
named as ηρι iri-eri, virb exist also in τρι-ηρεις Trierens means 3 times faster,
according Homer was daughter of Nereus (sea god) but was also the replacer of Titanis Εως Eos

so although sea nymph Thetis or Tethys means fast runner

search the virb θεω

now the word Βροχη βρεχω is considered more new in Greek that the word υετος
while the Homeric is υει -ui and precipitation is υετος, compare with Slavic lie,

about Taranis claim as celtic I can not confirm neither deny since I do not know and must search.
 
(I'll answer the first part later)

Terra is closest to Toke, I do not know how this word evolved into Albanian, if anyone knows a better explanation, go ahead. I notice that Albanian is usually ignored or seen with skepticism when comparing words of common IE origin.

The reason for this 'scepticism' as you call it is quite simple: if the words in question are cognates with PIE, but do not adhere to native Albanian sound laws, they must be loanwords. What applies for any other loanword in any other IE language applies for Albanian as well. It's as easy as that.

In any case, I maintain that Latin *r cannot have yielded *k in Albanian, and hence the origin must be a different one.


Let's take the Proto IndoEuropean word *kap (grasp) -in Albanian Kap-grasp- this is taken as cognate for German habere, also from Latin capere, from PIE *gap (give) - Albanian jap (give). Which one of the candidates is closest to the PIE root word? The german, latin or Albanian?


This is slightly incorrect. The PIE root word is *kap- (PIE *k generally yields *h in Germanic). Regarding Albanian, what I would actually expect here is "kap".


The root word for Albanian "jap" is in my opinion more likely PIE *ep (or *Hp) meaning 'take' or 'grasp'. Cognates would be Latin 'apere', 'apex', 'ineptus'


Also words of common PIE origin shared with slavic languages do not necessarily mean these words came from slavic into Albanian. Every word should be investigated.


As I said, the point is that this word can't be native of the basic fact that the PIE root word is *bhereg´h and not *bheregh. It cannot be native to either. The word must be originated from a Centum language, and it's compatible with Celtic and Germanic.

about Taranis claim as celtic I can not confirm neither deny since I do not know and must search.

Despite what my screen name might suggest, I did not claim Albanian was a Celtic* language... :LOL:

Having said this, there are some words that are clearly parallels between Albanian and Celtic that did not evade my observation. This includes:

- Albanian 'Ari' ('bear') is found in Celtic: Gaulish 'Artos', Welsh 'Arth' and Breton 'Arzh'. At the same time, of course, the word is also found in Greek as 'Arktos' and in Armenian as 'Arj' (արջ). This connection must be via PIE.

- Albanian 'Botë' ('world') is also found in Celtic: in the Gaulish tribal name 'Bituriges' (literally 'world kings'), Old Irish 'bith' and Welsh 'byd'.

(*a joke answer here: "Albion", "Alba" - "Albania", it all makes perfect sense, doesn't it? :nuts: )
 
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Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.
 
Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

If as herodous says ( and I agree) , the Veneti where illyrian ( from istria) and the veneti spoke and indo-euro langauge called venetic, then thats the answer.
of course there is messapic language which is said to be illyrian.

Then again, recent readings of italian papers based on roman documents , claim illri ( illyrians) to be only veneti, catali and a few smaller tribes, while Dalmati ( Dalmatians ) and liburnians are not Illyrian but tribes living in Illyricum .

then there are the north picene, illyrian, liburnians or ......etruscans
 
If as herodous says ( and I agree) , the Veneti where illyrian ( from istria) and the veneti spoke and indo-euro langauge called venetic, then thats the answer.
of course there is messapic language which is said to be illyrian.

Then again, recent readings of italian papers based on roman documents , claim illri ( illyrians) to be only veneti, catali and a few smaller tribes, while Dalmati ( Dalmatians ) and liburnians are not Illyrian but tribes living in Illyricum .

then there are the north picene, illyrian, liburnians or ......etruscans
And what does that have to do with Illyrians speaking a Centum or Satem language? And according to linguistic evidence, the Veneti spoke a language more akin to Italic than Illyrian it seems.
 
[h=1]The Illyrian Language[/h]

Language Name: Illyrian
Once Spoken in: Albania
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Croatia
Montenegro
Language Code : xil (Former code: XILL)
Status: Extinct
Family: Indo-European
Subgroup: Illyrian
Subgrouping Code: IEH
Brief Description: An ancient language of the Balkans. Based upon geographical proximity, this is traditionally seen as the ancestor of Modern Albanian. It is more likely, however, that Thracian is Modern Albanian's ancestor, since both Albanian and Thracian belong to the Satem group of Indo-European, while Illyrian belonged to the Centum group. 2nd half of 1st Millennium BC - 1st half of 1st Millennium AD.


most sites say Centum, some say Satem. this one also says Albanian is closer to thracian
 
Taranis, could you give us your opinion on whether Illyrian is a Centum or Satem language? I find that to be very important in reconstructing the prehistory of the Balkans and Indo-Europeans in general.

Illyrian according Greek History was a language that got Celticised or was from Celtic origin,

a group of Celtic Tribes invade Balkans much before troyan war, so Illyrian was a mix of P celtic with a non IE that greeks call Pelasgian,
according History Illyrians are sons of Illyros, but in their names we find The Keltos in Pannoni Basin
that means that Early Greeks believe that Celtic were from Illyrian origin, since Keltos was son of Illyros, but it was different,
That makes clear that Illyrian should be at Centum languages, since Celtic was a Centum language, a possible Italo-Celtic language mixed with a non IE.

there is also another theory that area of Illyria (not Illyricum) parts of Makedonia Dardania Paeonia were not IE but got IE from Vryges (phrygians)
Vryges until today are connected with 4 wider families
Brigantes as Celtic
Burgudes as Germanic
Bryges as Thracian
Bryges as para-Greek from Greco-aryan origin (Homeric, pre-Homeric, the later Skudra case)
Bryges play a Big roll in Balkans, since for some they are ones that turn IE the Locals,
Brygians or Phrygians were a Holy Nation by Makedonians, Especially in Upper (west) by ellimians
while their alter name By Argeiads was Mygdonians.

Their language was Isotones with Greek, that means they probably were Centum,

so Illyrian was probably Centum from Both Hypothesis.

Despite what my screen name might suggest, I did not claim Albanian was a Celtic* language...
laughing.gif

I was talking about the theme Breg from Breg Deti #17
 
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