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Thread: The Albanian language

  1. #76
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    From my point above.
    Borrowed words from Latin (e.g. Latin aurum > ar "gold", gaudium > gaz "gas" etc.) date back before the Christian era, while Illyrians in the today's Albanian territory were the first from the old Balkan populations to be conquered by Romans in 229 - 167 B.C., Thracians were conquered in 45 A.D. and Dacians in 106 A.D
    From wikipedia.
    So my question is: How can thay be Thracians or Dacians when Albania language has borrowings borrowings before both those tribes were conquered????

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    QUOTE=xyz;387180]Hi everybody. I am new here but I would try to contribute as much as I can
    Here is a link that may explain the link between PIE and Albanian words.
    starling.rinet.ru I hope you would find it useful.[/QUOTE]

    Taranis
    Regarding Albanian being Satem and Illyrian being Centum, from some of my readings in the net, I've understood that there is not enough knowledge about the Illyrian to determine that. Also Albanian can behave sometimes as Centum and is not clear-cut that Albanian is Satem, so it falls in between. Lately the linguists cannot agree in the division between Satem and Centum if I am correct!!
    I would say it is pretty clear that Albanian is a Satem language, because native words adhere to it (*k´ generally becomes "th" in Albanian, and *g´ and *g´h generally become "dh" in Albanian), meaning that apparent Centum words must be borrowed (the most common Centum language from which is borrowed into Albanian, of course, is Latin). I disagree about the idea that Albanian "falls between", because it is simply not possible for sound laws to be in free variation.

    As for Centum/Satem, it is true that the original idea that Centum and Satem were two early ancient branches into which Proto-Indo-European split is incorrect. This was disproven by the existence of Tocharian, which is an extinct Centum language that was once spoken in western China. The more modern idea is that Satemization was an innovation that occured in proximity to the core area of Indo-European, and that those branches in greater distance (Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Greek, Tocharian) did not participate in it.

    In any case, the question is what in ancient times the linguistic situation on the Western Balkans really did look like. While the situation with the Illyrians is unclear, what is a fact is that some Illyrian names show clearly Centum characteristics.

    I will agree with you when you state that Albanian has many words shared with Illyrian. You also should add that Albanians live in the territory described as Illyrian proprie dicti(check the spelling) or as real Illyrian. Furthermore I should add that there is no major migration movement recorded in that area since the Roman Empire with the exception of Slav movement, also there is continuity in that area. We also should agree in a proven point that the Albanian have borrowed from Latin since the 1 century BC and before that from Greeks. ( I need to check when were the Dacians, Thracians and Macedon’s concurred by the Romans).
    Regarding continuity, as can be seen from loanwords, the ancestors of the Albanians must have lived approximately near their present-day location since before Roman times.

    So the only controversy should be the naval terms although not everything is borrowed.
    This is correct. However, as I pointed out earlier, if you look at the etymologies of native naval terms found in Albanian, they are circumscriptions of naval terms using a different origin, like "deep" for "sea" or "dish"/"vessel" for "ship". The critical question here is, was this lack of native naval terminology already the case in ancient Albanian? There are two explanations for this: the first is that Albanians are not native to the sea and instead did only migrate there, the other is that ancient Albanian indeed did have native terminology, but that for some reason these terms got replaced. I must admit, I have difficulties to imagine how the latter could have happened.

    So you have Pro and Cons, but the Pro outweigh the Cons
    Pro and Contra on what issue? That Albanian is derived from Illyrian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I would say it is pretty clear that Albanian is a Satem language, because native words adhere to it (*k´ generally becomes "th" in Albanian, and *g´ and *g´h generally become "dh" in Albanian)
    So...hm since *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh' does this mean that words like:

    'them'-'say' english and 'dhe'-'dirt' english are from PIE and were smth like "k'em' and "g'hem' in PIE?

    Disclaimer:I'm not a linguistic so my assumption is based on 99.9% luck and 0.01% on Taranis quote so if i'm wrong i don't take any responsibility but if i'm right i take full credit for my guess

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    So...hm since *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh' does this mean that words like:

    'them'-'say' english and 'dhe'-'dirt' english are from PIE and were smth like "k'em' and "g'hem' in PIE?

    Disclaimer:I'm not a linguistic so my assumption is based on 99.9% luck and 0.01% on Taranis quote so if i'm wrong i don't take any responsibility but if i'm right i take full credit for my guess
    Sorry, no, I was talking about specific Albanian sound laws here, which, with English being a Germanic language, do not apply. To visualize what I mean, I will take an Albanian word, 'dhëmb' (tooth) and cognates in two Centum languages: 'comb' in English and 'gomphos' (peg) in Greek. All three words derive from PIE *g´ombh- (tooth, bite), but were developed very differently. To briefly explain things:

    In Albanian *g´ is shifted to to *ð (written dh), and *bh becomes *b. Thus 'dhëmb'.

    Germanic and Greek are both Centum languages, so *g´ was merged with *g, which produces a Centum form *gombh

    In Germanic, *g gets shifted to *k, and *bh becomes *b. Which is why we get "comb".

    In Greek, *g remains unchanged, but *bh becomes *ph. Hence "gomphos".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Sorry, no, I was talking about specific Albanian sound laws here, which, with English being a Germanic language, do not apply. To visualize what I mean, I will take an Albanian word, 'dhëmb' (tooth) and cognates in two Centum languages: 'comb' in English and 'gomphos' (peg) in Greek. All three words derive from PIE *g´ombh- (tooth, bite), but were developed very differently. To briefly explain things:

    In Albanian *g´ is shifted to to *ð (written dh), and *bh becomes *b. Thus 'dhëmb'.

    Germanic and Greek are both Centum languages, so *g´ was merged with *g, which produces a Centum form *gombh

    In Germanic, *g gets shifted to *k, and *bh becomes *b. Which is why we get "comb".

    In Greek, *g remains unchanged, but *bh becomes *ph. Hence "gomphos".
    You seem to have misunderstood. What i mean is that the words 'them' and 'dhe' in albanian, applying the albanian sound laws, which as you say are *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh', does this means that 'them' albanian is "k'em' and 'dhe' is "g'hem"?

    Not english. I put there the english translation so you or who is reading this knew what i was talking about since 'dhe' in albanian is
    1)Dirt-noun
    2)And-conjuction
    3)(you) gave-verb

  6. #81
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    Taranis:
    Can you tell me if this Albanian words are Satem or Centum???

    Root (PIE) Meaning Albanian
    gerbh- To scratch gervish
    gwer To praise grish
    gwreugh To bite me gice
    kwas To cough kollje
    g’her Fence gardh
    kwr.mi- grub krimb

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    Quote Originally Posted by xyz View Post
    Taranis:
    Can you tell me if this Albanian words are Satem or Centum???

    Root (PIE) Meaning Albanian
    gerbh- To scratch gervish
    gwer To praise grish
    gwreugh To bite me gice
    kwas To cough kollje
    g’her Fence gardh
    kwr.mi- grub krimb
    'praise' isn't 'lavdëroj'?
    'bite' isn't 'kafshoj'?
    'cough' is 'koll' (n) or 'kollitem' (v).
    'krimb' is 'worm' in english.
    Where did you find this 'grish' and 'gice' word? What dialect are they?

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    I cannot comment on 'grish' since is true that praise is lavderoj which is a loanword from latin if I'm not mistaken, but I got this word from wikipedia( I assume it must be some kind of dialect, but my point was something else anyway)
    'me gice'= to bite is correct allthough the common usage is kafshoj
    gica = kica ( I guess they are dialect but I've used it in my family) they are baby teeth, so baby bite should be the correct interpreation.
    You right about koll and kollitje (stupid copy paste)

    My point is that 'g' is not always shifted to 'dh' and 'k' is not always shifted to 'th' .

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    We say for babies tooth 'keca(t)'. But i don't think it has anything to do with bite. 'keca' means 'small teeth'. I've never even heard about 'me gice'.

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    Jo po Cjap
    I thojn kica os gica se kecat do te duhet ti pjekim ne hell ne ti hajm masanej.

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    Jo se gicat jane mire se derrat se kane shume dhjam. Ca m***n thua??? Andej nga anet e tua i thoni kica ose gica ne i themi keca. Ka ndonje problem nqs ne i themi keca?

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    Hey guys, in macedonia, we albanians use grish(not used in the city, mostly in the villages)

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    Ok, I asked my old father to be sure. Yes albanians in Macedonia use Grish, when for example you invite someone, and usually when you "grish" someone you 'praise' them by giving a gift of some sort.

    It is especially used for ceremonies, like weddings and such.

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    And as an Albanian born and raised in Norway I've also noticed that my parents can't, even after living here for 45 years, say the Norwegian U. It's like when I ask them to say the Norwgian U they say Y as is said in Norwegian. Same goes for J and Y sometimes. However I don't know if this is of any importance for you linguists ;)

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    1)Taranis you still haven't answer my Q...
    2) 'Keca','kica' or 'gica' basically meaning small or babies teeth...what root does it have
    3)'Gold' in albanian is 'Ar' from latin, but for 'gold' is also used the word 'flori'. This word, is it latin, greek, turkish or some other lanugage?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    1)Taranis you still haven't answer my Q...
    2) 'Keca','kica' or 'gica' basically meaning small or babies teeth...what root does it have
    3)'Gold' in albanian is 'Ar' from latin, but for 'gold' is also used the word 'flori'. This word, is it latin, greek, turkish or some other lanugage?

    flori does not mean gold
    fluria is a coin,

    it was the coin of Crusaders at 1200 at D crusade,

    the crusaders were payed Flouria,

    the latinocracy enetocracy Frangocracy times Coin



    the name is after Florentia Italy.

    In Latinocracy time was the most famous coin, among the Crusaders allies
    while Byzantines prefer Constantine's coins



    until 1920 the difference was big,

    the expression 'he has flouria', mean, Crusader's ancestor, or ruffian, in Greeks

    if you watch carefully the 1rst coin above you might read FLOR after florence Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    1)Taranis you still haven't answer my Q...
    2) 'Keca','kica' or 'gica' basically meaning small or babies teeth...what root does it have
    3)'Gold' in albanian is 'Ar' from latin, but for 'gold' is also used the word 'flori'. This word, is it latin, greek, turkish or some other lanugage?
    flori was used only due to the late middle ages as the currency of southern Italian, the Florin. The slang was flori.

    Northern Italy used the ducat, sometimes called the zequin and in french sequin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    flori was used only due to the late middle ages as the currency of southern Italian, the Florin. The slang was flori.

    Northern Italy used the ducat, sometimes called the zequin and in french sequin.
    Ζengin I think was the Murat E coins, it also means rich in Turkish i think,
    zeegin and saraf-is is the alternate turkish word that rums used to say for small banker or rich-man or -exchanger etc,

    I think the Turkish coins were aspra zengin and para

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    flori does not mean gold
    I'm sorry but do you know even a bit albanian?? 'flori' means 'gold' in albanian...where it came from is another matter, but you can't say it doesn't mean smth...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endri View Post
    I'm sorry but do you know even a bit albanian?? 'flori' means 'gold' in albanian...where it came from is another matter, but you can't say it doesn't mean smth...
    and that is the work of a linguistic,
    to write down correct meaning and forms,

    cause if I connect flori with main language without knowing its entrance and its origin
    then I might fall to falsification,
    the Fluri exist in modern Greek also, even in cappadokian Greeks,
    it is name of the coin that housekeeper in a speacial lucky pie in New years day,
    if you do not know the the origin when we both may enter to wrong path believing that flori is albanian word that reach Capadokia, or the Fluri and flori are from pelasgian ancestry ,
    or it is a Greek loan in Albanian language etc

    no matter the meaning it has today, the work of a good linguist is to find the original meaning and theme of a word and write it down for future linguists cause that word might be lost in time or cange meaning,
    the case that means gold today is because language is a vivid tool that changes and assimilate meanings and sounds,
    but we can not take it as an authentic word of albanian language,

    flori means gold only to those who accept it as gold

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    Ζengin I think was the Murat E coins, it also means rich in Turkish i think,
    zeegin and saraf-is is the alternate turkish word that rums used to say for small banker or rich-man or -exchanger etc,

    I think the Turkish coins were aspra zengin and para
    Thanks

    The Mint in Venice was called the Zecca
    The smallest valued coin in Venice at the time was the zecchin, which became Gazzetin later, which was the cost of the 1 page newspaper............the English language borrowed Gazzetin and made it gazette for the news.

    Back to Florin....Athens was ruled by a tuscany dynasty in the middleages, maybe thats where you got the word flori.
    Also western greece, epirus was another tuscan family the Tocco which also brought in the florin there.

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    Actually "jap" is clearly not unchanged. The PIE root word is reconstructed with a laryngeal sound.

    The reason I brought up specific words at the beginning is to explicitly visualize Albanian sound laws (ie, where there are changes from PIE). To show that, I used cognates from other IE languages. Now, *k and *p are retained unchanged in Albanian. Well, *k is retained under these conditions, it's shifted to /s/ or /c/ (written 'q' in Standard Albanian Orthography) in other contexts. The other reason was to show loanwords, and also what the loanwords can tell us about the relative chronology of Albanian sound laws.

    We can be pretty certain that the *k > *c sound shift didn't happen until after the Roman period because Latin loanwords are subject to it (civitas > qytet).

    You must not let yourself be fooled by the fact that Albanian (or indeed any other IE language) is conservative in a specific sound law and preserved the original sound. Just because it preserved one or two sounds doesn't mean Albanian preserved the complete "original condition". The example above (and many others I provided) show that this clearly isn't the case and that Albanian possesses a specific set of sound laws.
    I did not claim Albanian preserves the complete "original condition" I just said that when it does, or closely so as in the case of -kap-gap- linguist should say so.


    The world also means "world" in both Old Irish (bith) and Welsh (byd). By the way, the link must here be between PIE, otherwise you can't explain why it's /i/ in Celtic and /o/ in Albanian.
    the funny thing is that Albanian has both -bote (world) and byth (buttocks). Judging only by the word form, we should say the cognate in Alb of Irish "byth"-world - must be the Albanian -byth (buttocks) and not -bote (world), just like the case of the Alb word - tok (earth) similar only in form to slavic -tok (to flow).

    btw, there is also the ancient name of "bythinia". Albanian does have some names in funny meanings, such as the name -gomer - in Albanian it means -donkeys- the same with Maygar, in Alb it also means donkeys but in dialect.

    I definitely disagree about the last one, because you must not let yourself be confused by Irish or Albanian orthography. The fact that it's "dh" (or /ð/) in Albanian suggests that it comes from an earlier *mag´ or *mag´h. Because of this, I believe the word is related with Latin 'magis' and Greek 'megas', instead (note that I'm unaware of a cognate of that word in a Celtic language).

    EDIT: Also, "dh" in Irish, at least at a final position is silent. I'm also confused which language you took those words from, because lament is 'caoin' in Irish, and 'caoidh' in Scottish Gaelic.
    the website I saw these words listed all as in Gaulish or Welsh except the word "iomadh" which was listed as Scottish Gaelic. I don't know any of these languages so these could be different or false. There I also saw the word "gju" - knee in Alb.

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    here is how Albanian language sounds:


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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    Thanks

    The Mint in Venice was called the Zecca
    The smallest valued coin in Venice at the time was the zecchin, which became Gazzetin later, which was the cost of the 1 page newspaper............the English language borrowed Gazzetin and made it gazette for the news.

    Back to Florin....Athens was ruled by a tuscany dynasty in the middleages, maybe thats where you got the word flori.
    Also western greece, epirus was another tuscan family the Tocco which also brought in the florin there.

    coorect, I agree to that,
    but not only Athens,
    Thessaloniki, Con/polis, even to Ceasareia were settled some and build castles,
    traders knew the values and % of gold and change according,

    the word fluri from flor (the coin) starts to enter after 4rth crusade and especially in areas were ducats or kingdoms were created, these areas had mainly Flor as gold coin-value,
    we find the word even i Cappadokia in Ceasareia of Pontus were we know knights manage to control 3 castles,

    Coin flor has marching date about 1205 AD,
    while senquin after 1400-1500

    now the zecchin you mentioned
    were known as sachin-ia in ex-Byzantine areas.

    in turkish language Zengin means rich-man, wealthy-man,
    I do not know if It is from Venice zecchin coins
    or Venice name them in purpose after ottoman's to take advantage of merchants,
    or it just a coincidence, or both comes from middle east Sach = king or Sikke = mint
    I think sachin are mentioned later, after 1400 around ex-byzantine areas. and mostly mentioned at 1500,
    while zengin are mentioned the Murat E coins,
    I least gold traders or collector's name them like that here
    cold trader, coin dealer small banker's are named in ex Byzantine and ottoman empire are baned
    Sachin -is
    sharaf -is
    zengin -is
    malam -as
    chrysaf-is
    econom-os
    Asim-
    Γαζ-ης
    gazet-is
    all meant pawn shop or metal worker or small local banker-trader

    language is vivid idea or being, and many times assimilates words giving them different meaning
    surnames are given by work or many other, but each other knew the treasure of its other due to the wife hair, remember Byzantines put coins in the hair of their women,
    Last edited by Yetos; 30-11-11 at 18:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kesi View Post
    I did not claim Albanian preserves the complete "original condition" I just said that when it does, or closely so as in the case of -kap-gap- linguist should say so.




    the funny thing is that Albanian has both -bote (world) and byth (buttocks). Judging only by the word form, we should say the cognate in Alb of Irish "byth"-world - must be the Albanian -byth (buttocks) and not -bote (world), just like the case of the Alb word - tok (earth) similar only in form to slavic -tok (to flow).

    btw, there is also the ancient name of "bythinia". Albanian does have some names in funny meanings, such as the name -gomer - in Albanian it means -donkeys- the same with Maygar, in Alb it also means donkeys but in dialect.


    the website I saw these words listed all as in Gaulish or Welsh except the word "iomadh" which was listed as Scottish Gaelic. I don't know any of these languages so these could be different or false. There I also saw the word "gju" - knee in Alb.
    gomer hahaha
    exist in Greek also as γομαρι gomari and even in Cypriot and far
    the meaning is γιωμα = γεματο, (filled up max)
    the exact heavy or load for a donkey,
    example 3 gomaria means 3 donkeys but also 3 loads,
    gomari is also the man that works hard in lifting work, in English is Dockers

    gomari is word used by traders that moved around
    the word is after Greek word Γομοσις, means I fill up, (bags shag pockets etc)
    the max fill up for a donkey to carry is gomari,
    while the one who carries or fills is named gomaras.
    Gomari is alternate for mule also
    caravans until 1900 froom a village to city or in a big road from city to city were mailnly from 3 parts
    the traders (gold keepers) the ntaides or davades or tsilias (tsolias) or pechlivans and the gomaria,

    merchants, guards merchantise and its carriers
    γιωμα or γεμα ορ γομοσις is Greek word meaning the filled up bag or shag or box or what-ever

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