The Albanian language

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I know of the word 'Gola' but also it is 'ingoia' which is 'swallow'. The sound J and I are very similar in albanian when prounced like U and Y so not rarely italian words from I have became a J.


Besides 'Gola' means throat, 'Ingoia' is swallow and 'Goja' is mouth. Could it be that 'ingoia' meant smth like 'in the mouth'? And during the times the word 'goia' was lost or became/got substituted by 'bocca' ?

I mentioned Venetian due to their ownership of Durres and other albanain lands during the late middle ages, I did not mention Italian because the only time Italy owned albania was during Mussolini. If you claim its Italian then the albanian word goja is modern and nothing to do with the conversation


EDIT : I forgot to mention that people alter words that they accept from another language and use it for something else.
example - The Illyrian word for snake is BRISA, the venetian word is BISA ( in italian its serpente ), yet the venetian used BRISA for their word to slide (as in snake ) , that word is SBRISA, so tribes do require to change new words and create another
 
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1) Under Venetian rule was much more than just Durres. The area around Scodra since Ottoman times was always under Venetian rule.

2) I'm not talking about Italian but Latin. Since there already are a lot of words with Latin origin maybe 'ingoia' is e remnants of latin and 'goia' is latin or old latin or some latin at a period of time that means 'mouth' since the 'I' is much simpler to become the albanian 'J' then a missing sound in Venetian.
 
1) Under Venetian rule was much more than just Durres. The area around Scodra since Ottoman times was always under Venetian rule.

2) I'm not talking about Italian but Latin. Since there already are a lot of words with Latin origin maybe 'ingoia' is e remnants of latin and 'goia' is latin or old latin or some latin at a period of time that means 'mouth' since the 'I' is much simpler to become the albanian 'J' then a missing sound in Venetian.


fair enough
 
Taranis


1) About 'kut'. Didn't know it existed. Apparently it does. Weird word.


2)'leaf' is 'gjethe' and not 'gjeth'


3)'qe'-->'that' you mean 'që'??? Cause for 'qe' i can only think of
3.1) 'qe' (verb) which means 'It was'
3.2) 'qe' (noun) which is plural for the word 'ka-u'. 'ka' (indefinite form) or 'kau' (definite form) is the male of the 'cow'. It is archaic albanian form rarely used.
 
As per #3 ...............goja is venetian slang for throat, the proper spelling is gola, but the l is what linguistics call the venetian vanishing l.
so its pronounced ( go...ar ) The j in the Venetian alphabet ( italian does not have J ) is a y sound in the mainland , but can disappear in colonial Venet
Another example is the word for the city of Milano, its spelt Milan with a vanishing l , so its pronounced ( me ..arn )
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Jz2V1LL2u1YC&pg=PR17&dq=venetian+vanishing+l&hl=en&ei=gG3BTtKLHLHzmAX40dH9Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venetian vanishing l&f=false

One of the 5 dialects of Venetian is called Colonial venet and runs from istria to Montenegro, greek islands , so goja could be part of this.

interesting
so it reach until Pontus mountains
the Greek pontian for Neck are 2 the original Greek laimos and also Γουλα Gula and drinking is Gulia
I did not expect it to reach so far in North east Turkey !!!!!
amazing
 
2)'leaf' is 'gjethe' and not 'gjeth'

Well, that was a typo on my end. It was supposed to be 'gjethe' indeed.

3)'qe'-->'that' you mean 'që'??? Cause for 'qe' i can only think of
3.1) 'qe' (verb) which means 'It was'

Sorry, yes. It was supposed to be 'që'. An innocent mistake on my side, I forgot the diaeresis/umlaut. :ashamed2:

3.2) 'qe' (noun) which is plural for the word 'ka-u'. 'ka' (indefinite form) or 'kau' (definite form) is the male of the 'cow'. It is archaic albanian form rarely used.

This is interesting. I didn't know about this word, but the possibility is actually that this is a Germanic loanword. There is a Proto-Indo-European word for "cattle" (*gwōus), of which "Ka"/"Kau" might be a cognate. If the word was native Albanian, it would be rendered as something akin to 'ga-'. The development of *g > *k is something found in Germanic. The word might be of Gothic or otherwise East Germanic origin.

Regarding "Arbëresh" and "Albanians", there certainly is the possibility that the two words are related! Isn't there a shift from /n/ > /r/ in the Tosk dialect (and thus Standard Albanian?). If yes, one can speculate if the ancient form might have been something akin to "Arbenes", which might be a cognate with the "Albanoi" found in ancient Greek source. At least, this is a preliminary a hypothesis on my side. :)
 
'ka' and 'qe' are old words, now outdated unfortunately and are also the only words in albanian which i've seen written with an accent in the end, like the italian accent.

'Arbër' and 'Arbëresh' are two different things. 'Arbër' was Albania medieval name and 'Arbëresh' are the albanians who emigrated in the 15 century to the kingdom of Naples, and the inhabitants of albania in middle ages. So the name of the country/region ect was 'Arbër'. I'm kinda surprised you didn't know this since only slavs call use 'Skiptars'. Greek call us 'Alvanoi' or smth like that (idk greek) also "Arvanitika' which were the orthodox albanians in the Northern Greece who fought for Greece independence Turks called us during the occupation 'Arnauts' and the Latin name 'Albania'. 'Shqipëria' most likely started to get used after Scanderbeg times cause of the Byzantine Eagle on his flag which is our national flag today, and probably got used by the people as a way to remember the history and is also one of the facts that shows continuity from Scanderbeg time.

Anyway to summarize 'Arbër'-'Albania'-'Alvanoi'-'Arvanitika'-'Arnaut' all meaning 'Albania' (modern) and 'Shqipëria'

-Also 'Goja'. Any idea where from?
-Since words like 'dhelpër' and 'ari' are PIE, the word 'ujk', 'wolf' english, is also PIE?
 
EDIT : I forgot to mention that people alter words that they accept from another language and use it for something else.
example - The Illyrian word for snake is BRISA, the venetian word is BISA ( in italian its serpente ), yet the venetian used BRISA for their word to slide (as in snake ) , that word is SBRISA, so tribes do require to change new words and create another

Don't forget the name Biscia, "grass snake" and "water snake" in standard italian. Has it the same origin?
 
Don't forget the name Biscia, "grass snake" and "water snake" in standard italian. Has it the same origin?

What I was taught is
Biscia and Vipere are different classes of snakes
Biscia have round pupils, oval head and are not poisonous.
Vipere have slant pupils, trianglular heads and are poisonous

Maybe you mixing sea-snake with an EEL , which in italian is Anguilla and in venetian is Bisato
 
What I was taught is
Biscia and Vipere are different classes of snakes
Biscia have round pupils, oval head and are not poisonous.
Vipere have slant pupils, trianglular heads and are poisonous

Maybe you mixing sea-snake with an EEL , which in italian is Anguilla and in venetian is Bisato

it's not eel, on word reference i've found the transaltion Biscia= Grass Snake mostly but sometimes water snake

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_snake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_snake

a grass snake
 
a water snake
northern-water-snake.jpg
 
'ka' and 'qe' are old words, now outdated unfortunately and are also the only words in albanian which i've seen written with an accent in the end, like the italian accent.

'Arbër' and 'Arbëresh' are two different things. 'Arbër' was Albania medieval name and 'Arbëresh' are the albanians who emigrated in the 15 century to the kingdom of Naples, and the inhabitants of albania in middle ages. So the name of the country/region ect was 'Arbër'. I'm kinda surprised you didn't know this since only slavs call use 'Skiptars'.

Well, "Skip-" is approximately what the ancient Albanian form of the word "Shqip-" would have looked like. (Consider that the k > q shift in Albanian is a fairly late innovation, which in my opinion occured after the 500 AD)

Greek call us 'Alvanoi' or smth like that (idk greek) also "Arvanitika' which were the orthodox albanians in the Northern Greece who fought for Greece independence Turks called us during the occupation 'Arnauts' and the Latin name 'Albania'. 'Shqipëria' most likely started to get used after Scanderbeg times cause of the Byzantine Eagle on his flag which is our national flag today, and probably got used by the people as a way to remember the history and is also one of the facts that shows continuity from Scanderbeg time.

Anyway to summarize 'Arbër'-'Albania'-'Alvanoi'-'Arvanitika'-'Arnaut' all meaning 'Albania' (modern) and 'Shqipëria'

As I said, I wonder if the root 'Arbër' is related with the word "Albanoi" recorded in Antiquity.

-Also 'Goja'. Any idea where from?

My best idea is that it could be from PIE 'gel-' (to devour). In that case, it could be a cognate with:

- German 'Kehle' (jowl, throat)
- Latin 'gluttire' (to swallow, compare 'glutton')

-Since words like 'dhelpër' and 'ari' are PIE, the word 'ujk', 'wolf' english, is also PIE?

Yes, absolutely. Modern Albanian 'ujk' derives from an earlier "ulk-" (which, interestingly enough, is preserved in the ancient Illyrian town name 'Ulcinum'), which derives from the even earlier PIE word "Ulkwos".

We are left with quite a paradoxial situation here:
- on the one hand, Albanian has a lot of words which it seems to share with Illyrian (or, which at least occur in an Illyrian context)
- on the other hand, there are strong arguments against the relationship with Illyrian, including the fact that it was a Centum language where Albanian is Satem, and that the fact Illyrians had a sophisticated naval culture where (modern) Albanian seems to be lacking in naval terms (instead we find loanwords and circumdescriptions).

The question, of course, is how to solve this discrepancy?
 
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Hi everybody. I am new here but I would try to contribute as much as I can :D
Here is a link that may explain the link between PIE and Albanian words.
starling.rinet.ru I hope you would find it useful.

Taranis
Regarding Albanian being Satem and Illyrian being Centum, from some of my readings in the net, I've understood that there is not enough knowledge about the Illyrian to determine that. Also Albanian can behave sometimes as Centum and is not clear-cut that Albanian is Satem, so it falls in between. Lately the linguists cannot agree in the division between Satem and Centum if I am correct!!
I will agree with you when you state that Albanian has many words shared with Illyrian. You also should add that Albanians live in the territory described as Illyrian proprie dicti(check the spelling) or as real Illyrian. Furthermore I should add that there is no major migration movement recorded in that area since the Roman Empire with the exception of Slav movement, also there is continuity in that area. We also should agree in a proven point that the Albanian have borrowed from Latin since the 1 century BC and before that from Greeks. ( I need to check when were the Dacians, Thracians and Macedon’s concurred by the Romans).
So the only controversy should be the naval terms although not everything is borrowed.
So you have Pro and Cons, but the Pro outweigh the Cons

 
starling.rinet.ru to this add /new100/alb.pdf
Cannot post links since I am new over here
 
From my point above.
Borrowed words from Latin (e.g. Latin aurum > ar "gold", gaudium > gaz "gas" etc.) date back before the Christian era, while Illyrians in the today's Albanian territory were the first from the old Balkan populations to be conquered by Romans in 229 - 167 B.C., Thracians were conquered in 45 A.D. and Dacians in 106 A.D
From wikipedia.
So my question is: How can thay be Thracians or Dacians when Albania language has borrowings borrowings before both those tribes were conquered????
 
QUOTE=xyz;387180]Hi everybody. I am new here but I would try to contribute as much as I can :D
Here is a link that may explain the link between PIE and Albanian words.
starling.rinet.ru I hope you would find it useful.[/QUOTE]

Taranis
Regarding Albanian being Satem and Illyrian being Centum, from some of my readings in the net, I've understood that there is not enough knowledge about the Illyrian to determine that. Also Albanian can behave sometimes as Centum and is not clear-cut that Albanian is Satem, so it falls in between. Lately the linguists cannot agree in the division between Satem and Centum if I am correct!!

I would say it is pretty clear that Albanian is a Satem language, because native words adhere to it (*k´ generally becomes "th" in Albanian, and *g´ and *g´h generally become "dh" in Albanian), meaning that apparent Centum words must be borrowed (the most common Centum language from which is borrowed into Albanian, of course, is Latin). I disagree about the idea that Albanian "falls between", because it is simply not possible for sound laws to be in free variation.

As for Centum/Satem, it is true that the original idea that Centum and Satem were two early ancient branches into which Proto-Indo-European split is incorrect. This was disproven by the existence of Tocharian, which is an extinct Centum language that was once spoken in western China. The more modern idea is that Satemization was an innovation that occured in proximity to the core area of Indo-European, and that those branches in greater distance (Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Greek, Tocharian) did not participate in it.

In any case, the question is what in ancient times the linguistic situation on the Western Balkans really did look like. While the situation with the Illyrians is unclear, what is a fact is that some Illyrian names show clearly Centum characteristics.

I will agree with you when you state that Albanian has many words shared with Illyrian. You also should add that Albanians live in the territory described as Illyrian proprie dicti(check the spelling) or as real Illyrian. Furthermore I should add that there is no major migration movement recorded in that area since the Roman Empire with the exception of Slav movement, also there is continuity in that area. We also should agree in a proven point that the Albanian have borrowed from Latin since the 1 century BC and before that from Greeks. ( I need to check when were the Dacians, Thracians and Macedon’s concurred by the Romans).

Regarding continuity, as can be seen from loanwords, the ancestors of the Albanians must have lived approximately near their present-day location since before Roman times.

So the only controversy should be the naval terms although not everything is borrowed.

This is correct. However, as I pointed out earlier, if you look at the etymologies of native naval terms found in Albanian, they are circumscriptions of naval terms using a different origin, like "deep" for "sea" or "dish"/"vessel" for "ship". The critical question here is, was this lack of native naval terminology already the case in ancient Albanian? There are two explanations for this: the first is that Albanians are not native to the sea and instead did only migrate there, the other is that ancient Albanian indeed did have native terminology, but that for some reason these terms got replaced. I must admit, I have difficulties to imagine how the latter could have happened.

So you have Pro and Cons, but the Pro outweigh the Cons

Pro and Contra on what issue? That Albanian is derived from Illyrian?
 
I would say it is pretty clear that Albanian is a Satem language, because native words adhere to it (*k´ generally becomes "th" in Albanian, and *g´ and *g´h generally become "dh" in Albanian)

So...hm since *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh' does this mean that words like:

'them'-'say' english and 'dhe'-'dirt' english are from PIE and were smth like "k'em' and "g'hem' in PIE?

Disclaimer:I'm not a linguistic so my assumption is based on 99.9% luck and 0.01% on Taranis quote so if i'm wrong i don't take any responsibility but if i'm right i take full credit for my guess :LOL:
 
So...hm since *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh' does this mean that words like:

'them'-'say' english and 'dhe'-'dirt' english are from PIE and were smth like "k'em' and "g'hem' in PIE?

Disclaimer:I'm not a linguistic so my assumption is based on 99.9% luck and 0.01% on Taranis quote so if i'm wrong i don't take any responsibility but if i'm right i take full credit for my guess :LOL:

Sorry, no, I was talking about specific Albanian sound laws here, which, with English being a Germanic language, do not apply. To visualize what I mean, I will take an Albanian word, 'dhëmb' (tooth) and cognates in two Centum languages: 'comb' in English and 'gomphos' (peg) in Greek. All three words derive from PIE *g´ombh- (tooth, bite), but were developed very differently. To briefly explain things:

In Albanian *g´ is shifted to to *ð (written dh), and *bh becomes *b. Thus 'dhëmb'.

Germanic and Greek are both Centum languages, so *g´ was merged with *g, which produces a Centum form *gombh

In Germanic, *g gets shifted to *k, and *bh becomes *b. Which is why we get "comb".

In Greek, *g remains unchanged, but *bh becomes *ph. Hence "gomphos".
 
Sorry, no, I was talking about specific Albanian sound laws here, which, with English being a Germanic language, do not apply. To visualize what I mean, I will take an Albanian word, 'dhëmb' (tooth) and cognates in two Centum languages: 'comb' in English and 'gomphos' (peg) in Greek. All three words derive from PIE *g´ombh- (tooth, bite), but were developed very differently. To briefly explain things:

In Albanian *g´ is shifted to to *ð (written dh), and *bh becomes *b. Thus 'dhëmb'.

Germanic and Greek are both Centum languages, so *g´ was merged with *g, which produces a Centum form *gombh

In Germanic, *g gets shifted to *k, and *bh becomes *b. Which is why we get "comb".

In Greek, *g remains unchanged, but *bh becomes *ph. Hence "gomphos".

You seem to have misunderstood. What i mean is that the words 'them' and 'dhe' in albanian, applying the albanian sound laws, which as you say are *k' becomes 'th' and *g'h becomes 'dh', does this means that 'them' albanian is "k'em' and 'dhe' is "g'hem"?

Not english. I put there the english translation so you or who is reading this knew what i was talking about since 'dhe' in albanian is
1)Dirt-noun
2)And-conjuction
3)(you) gave-verb
 
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