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Thread: Germanic words of non ie origin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    To get back to the linguistic issue, in general the unique feature of the Germanic languages is that in comparison to Proto-Indo-European (and indeed most other IE languages), sounds are shifted in Germanic. This is primarily according to Grimm's Law:

    *p > *f (Latin "pater" vs. English "father")
    *t > *θ
    *k > *h (Latin "centum" vs. English "hundred")
    *kw > *hw (Latin "quod" vs. English "what")

    *b > *p
    *d > *t
    *g > *k
    *gw > *kw

    *bh > *b
    *dh > *d
    *gh > *g
    *gwh > *gw

    In addition, there's another law at work (Verner's Law) which regards the sounds *p, *t, *k, *kw ending up voiced (*β, *ð, *ɣ, *ɣw) if they are following an unstressed syllable.
    I'm totally ignorant in Lingiustic but in what way the Grimm's law does differ from the armenian sounds shift or the other lanuage sounds shifts (P and Q celtic...)?

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    I have started a list of old Germanic words of non-Indo-European origin. Feel free to comment or suggest new words. I am planning to add the PIE word in the right column when I have time to look them up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    My guess is that the mutation for blondism occured in some subclades of U4 and U5 in Northern Europe, hence its absence in southern european (who also have U4 and U5).
    I'm not sure that it is correlated with I1 since the Tarim mummies were blonde but tested R1a.
    It's the wrong way to look at it. Male lineages get replaced. Female lineages tend to stay. If U4 and U5 were found at relatively high frequencies among the Indo-Europeans (probably since U4 and U5 are found in all places in Asia settled by the Indo-Europeans), then it is likely that U4 and U5 women were assimilated by the Indo-Europeans before their expansion. My guess is that Mesolithic Northern Europeans had the genes for blond hair and blue eyes, at least all the way from Scandinavia to Ukraine. Either the male lineages were a blend of (pre-)I1 and R1a, or they were all I1 and R1a came later and replaced I1 in Eastern Europe. In any case I believe that R1a did not move to the area immediately north of the Black Sea until the Catacomb or Timber-grave cultures (2500-1500 BCE). Before that they were confined to the forest-steppe in the northern half of Ukraine (corresponding to the Neolithic Bug-Dniester Culture => see map). They were neighbours of I1 people who probably inhabited modern Poland and Baltic countries at the time. In any case, all the Baltic region (both shores including Scandinavia) were taken over by R1a people during the Corded Ware Culture. It's very possible that I1 was originally much more widespread over Northeast Europe, just like I2 used to be far more common in Western and Southern Europe, before being replaced by R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I definitely am inclined to think that blond hair is more likely to be tied with the original Indo-Europeans than with the aboriginal peoples of northern Europe, and that the modern-day high frequency is a result of a founder effect. The Tocharians are known to have been blond, not only from the Tarim Basin mummies...
    The Tocharians, Central Asians and Indo-Aryans were an offshoot of the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture, which was itself an extension of the Corded Ware Culture, which originated in the Bug-Dniester Culture in northern Ukraine 7000 years ago. As I explained in the above post, the gene for blondism could very well have been absorbed from the Baltic neighbours several millennia before the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Either the male lineages were a blend of (pre-)I1 and R1a, or they were all I1 and R1a came later and replaced I1 in Eastern Europe.
    I believe that R1a is in Central and Eastern Europe (and in some parts of Western Europe like Cantabria and Massif central) since the Mesolithic at least. Klyosov hypothesis is that Yamnaya people only moves east to west and brought R1b to western Europe while most of the Asian R1a had its origin in the Corded ware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Tocharians, Central Asians and Indo-Aryans were an offshoot of the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture, which was itself an extension of the Corded Ware Culture, which originated in the Bug-Dniester Culture in northern Ukraine 7000 years ago. As I explained in the above post, the gene for blondism could very well have been absorbed from the Baltic neighbours several millennia before the Poltavka-Sintashta Culture.
    Tocharians are a specific case. Their language is closer to the Anatolian and Italo Celtic branches than to Indo Iranic. It is possible that they moved directly from the PIE homeland and very early.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I'm totally ignorant in Lingiustic but in what way the Grimm's law does differ from the armenian sounds shift or the other lanuage sounds shifts (P and Q celtic...)?
    Well, Armenian is significant in so far as that we have a comparable "across-the-board" if you will sound shift, but it's not the same. To give you an idea:

    PIE - Germanic - Armenian:

    *t - *θ - *tʰ
    *p - *f - *h
    *k - *h - *kʰ
    *kw - *hw - *kʰ


    *d - *t - *t
    *b - *p - *p
    *g _ *k - *k
    *gw - *kw - *k


    *dh - *d - *d
    *bh - *b - *b
    *gh - *g - *g
    *gwh - *gw - *g


    Also note that because Germanic is Centum, and Armenian is Satem, this can be also seen here:


    *k´ - *h - *s
    *g´ - *k - *ts
    *g´h - *g - *ds

    What is a matter of dispute with the Germanic languages is not that Grimm's Law happened, but when it happened. The Traditionalists place it to circa 500 BC, based mainly on the idea that the Classical Greek word "Kannabis" was borrowed into Proto-Germanic, where it would have yielded *hannapiz (hence English "hemp").

    A more modern approach is the idea that the First Germanic Sound Shift occured very late, only around the 1st century BC to AD, and that it assumes that a late form of what has been dubbed "Pre-Germanic" (more appropriately, "Proto-Germanic before the First Sound Shift") was spoken as late as the 2nd century BC. One aspect, which I already discussed before in other threads is that tribal names like "Cimbri" and "Teutones" recorded in the 2nd century BC would variably have to be Celtic or Germanic in etymology if the sound shift occured earlier or later. What everybody can agree on is that by the time of Tacitus, the sound shift is completed.

    In the context of that substrate hypothesis (which argues that the share of non-IE words in Germanic is substantial) is that Grimm's Law occured much earlier, probably when the suspected non-Indo-European peoples adopted the Indo-European language. Note however that basically all Celtic loanwords (*isarnon, *markos, *rigs, etc.) into Proto-Germanic entered the language before Grimm's Law applied.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have started a list of old Germanic words of non-Indo-European origin. Feel free to comment or suggest new words. I am planning to add the PIE word in the right column when I have time to look them up.
    I definitely appreciate your efforts, but I'm inclined to considerably disagree here with a number of words in the list, some which are also found in the lists I posted. Where I do see another problem is that you mention Feist 1932. There's a reason that the hypothesis keeps popping up only rarely nowadays in discussions, and that is that many of the words that Feist or Hawking suggested have been proven in the meantime to actually have PIE etymologies.

    My opinion is that there clearly are non-IE words found in Germanic which are not found elsewhere, but I am sceptical if this justifies the special treatment of Germanic (and to what degree?) amongst the Indo-European languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    Tocharians are a specific case. Their language is closer to the Anatolian and Italo Celtic branches than to Indo Iranic. It is possible that they moved directly from the PIE homeland and very early.
    The position of Tocharian, both geographically and within Indo-European is indeed peculiar. Some people, notably Waktins 1998, placed Tocharian closest with Italo-Celtic. If this is indeed the case, we would expect that the Tocharians indeed migrated very far. Alternatively, we can speculate if Tocharian was merely the first, or one of the first (see Anatolian), branches of Indo-European to diverge.

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    I would say that very light skin and light hair was pretty much in same place in Europe from end of last Ice Age. Before that if blond existed it must have been located more south, possibly around black see, Balkans, or north Mediterranean coast.
    I think so, because I believe it is strongly correlated to climate condition. You see, the blond genes (especially eyes) are recessive, so why would they (blond) survive in spite of all the peoples moving through the area, through at least 10 thousand years? The most likely reason is greater survival chance for blonds in this region, and always overpopulating darker skin folks. Climate is the same reason why blond never become dominant in other climatic zones, in face of huge tribal dispersion with dominant blond characteristics. Without any other known factors, I could narrow it down to higher Vitamin D3 production - versus skin cancer predisposition, generally speaking health.
    What would be the ideal climatic zone for blond? From top of my head I would say:
    - latitude higher than 40deg, with sweet spot around 55 deg.
    - mostly cloudy, moderate climate

    I think we can compare this situation to R1b enclaves in sub Saharan Africa. We know that when R1b arrived there few thousand years ago they were on white side of skin color. Now they are all black, not even few whites, from these migrations, survived.
    That's how strong environmental forcing is in this regard.

    Going back to Europe. Where the original blonds R1a or I? I would like to know too. Probably I, but R1a might have been the first blond during Ice Age if they lived around Black Sea and then carried blond north after ice age. Being mostly autosomal in nature, blond (after creation) stayed in right climatic zone regardless of maternal or paternal dna, and big migrations of people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The position of Tocharian, both geographically and within Indo-European is indeed peculiar. Some people, notably Waktins 1998, placed Tocharian closest with Italo-Celtic. If this is indeed the case, we would expect that the Tocharians indeed migrated very far. Alternatively, we can speculate if Tocharian was merely the first, or one of the first (see Anatolian), branches of Indo-European to diverge.
    By the way, the tarim mummies had Tartan

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    More words :

    buy
    dam
    dear
    gate
    idle
    keg
    lane
    lark
    mood
    narrow
    pack
    path
    steal
    steam
    swell
    weed
    womb
    wonder
    Last edited by Maciamo; 09-12-11 at 15:45.

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    There's two words in your list here which need to be removed/modified:

    "silver" has a cognate in Baltic and Slavic:
    - Latvian "sudabra" Lithuanian "sidabras"
    - Polish "srebrny", Russian "Serebro"
    (it's not uniquely Germanic, but it's not found anywhere else)

    "all" is clearly Proto-Indo-European, even if it has a different meaning in Germanic:
    - Celtic (Gaulish "allo-" 'the second, the other'), Old Irish "Aile", Welsh "Ail")
    - Latin "alius" (the other)
    - Greek "allos" (the other)
    - Armenian "ayl"
    - Sanskrit "aríḥ" (stranger)
    - Tocharian "alyak" (other)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    There's two words in your list here which need to be removed/modified:

    "silver" has a cognate in Baltic and Slavic:
    - Latvian "sudabra" Lithuanian "sidabras"
    - Polish "srebrny", Russian "Serebro"
    (it's not uniquely Germanic, but it's not found anywhere else)

    "all" is clearly Proto-Indo-European, even if it has a different meaning in Germanic:
    - Celtic (Gaulish "allo-" 'the second, the other'), Old Irish "Aile", Welsh "Ail")
    - Latin "alius" (the other)
    - Greek "allos" (the other)
    - Armenian "ayl"
    - Sanskrit "aríḥ" (stranger)
    - Tocharian "alyak" (other)
    Ok for "all", but silver is found only in Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Silver was known before the time of the PIE expansion, so the PIE word should be the same in all branches of IE languages. It is actually the case for Italo-Celtic (Latin argentum, Old Irish argat, Breton arc'hant) Indo-Iranian (Avestan erezata-, Old Persian ardata-, Sanskrit arjuna), Armenian (arcat), and perhaps other extinct languages too. So in this case I would rather postulate for a common non-IE origin for Germanic and Balto-Slavic (perhaps from the indigenous North European I1 people, which wouldn't be surprising considering the high natural occurrence of silver in Sweden and Poland).

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ok for "all", but silver is found only in Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Silver was known before the time of the PIE expansion, so the PIE word should be the same in all branches of IE languages. It is actually the case for Italo-Celtic (Latin argentum, Old Irish argat, Breton arc'hant) Indo-Iranian (Avestan erezata-, Old Persian ardata-, Sanskrit arjuna), Armenian (arcat), and perhaps other extinct languages too. So in this case I would rather postulate for a common non-IE origin for Germanic and Balto-Slavic (perhaps from the indigenous North European I1 people, which wouldn't be surprising considering the high natural occurrence of silver in Sweden and Poland).
    I absolutely agree on both accounts. My point merely was that the word "silver" isn't uniquely Germanic, even though I agree it's probably not of IE origin. There are two issues which should be pointed out:

    The Finnic languages have their own word for silver (Estonian "hõbe", Finnish "hopea"), but they borrowed an Indo-European word for gold.

    Furthermore, some people have speculated if the Basque for silver ("zilar") is related in any ways to the Germanic-Balto-Slavic word. I was quite sceptical of this, but it's possible due to the phenomenon of Haplology. If the words are indeed related, the Pre-Basque form would have been *zilabar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Furthermore, some people have speculated if the Basque for silver ("zilar") is related in any ways to the Germanic-Balto-Slavic word. I was quite sceptical of this, but it's possible due to the phenomenon of Haplology. If the words are indeed related, the Pre-Basque form would have been *zilabar.
    That's very interesting. I didn't know this Basque word but it does sound related to the Germanic and Balto-Slavic words. As silver was used as a currency for (pan-European) trade it wouldn't be surprising if the same word was used in most of Europe during the Neolithic, whatever its origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Ok for "all", but silver is found only in Germanic and Balto-Slavic. Silver was known before the time of the PIE expansion, so the PIE word should be the same in all branches of IE languages. It is actually the case for Italo-Celtic (Latin argentum, Old Irish argat, Breton arc'hant) Indo-Iranian (Avestan erezata-, Old Persian ardata-, Sanskrit arjuna), Armenian (arcat), and perhaps other extinct languages too. So in this case I would rather postulate for a common non-IE origin for Germanic and Balto-Slavic (perhaps from the indigenous North European I1 people, which wouldn't be surprising considering the high natural occurrence of silver in Sweden and Poland).
    Silver in Kurdish is "ziv".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goga View Post
    Silver in Kurdish is "ziv".
    That's also similar to the Northeast European and Basque term. As other Iranian languages use the PIE word, I would guess that Kurdish salvaged an indigenous word to West Asia. I also found out that the Akkadian word for silver was sarpu, related to sarapu "to refine, smelt", which is really close to the Slavic words (e.g. serebo in Russian). The Neolithic origin of silver is thus further reinforced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's also similar to the Northeast European and Basque term. As other Iranian languages use the PIE word, I would guess that Kurdish salvaged an indigenous word to West Asia. I also found out that the Akkadian word for silver was sarpu, related to sarapu "to refine, smelt", which is really close to the Slavic words (e.g. serebo in Russian). The Neolithic origin of silver is thus further reinforced.
    I'm not sure regarding the Kurdish word, but regarding Akkadian, the language also possessed another word for silver, "kaspu". A cognate of this word can be found in other Semitic languages, notably Aramic and Hebrew (though not Arabic), where it's "כסף" ("kessef"). While we are at it, the Albanian word for silver, 'argjend' must be a loan from Latin. Since the PIE root word is *arg´- and not *arg-, the expected native Albanian word would be something akin to *arð- (which would be written as "ardh-").

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's also similar to the Northeast European and Basque term. As other Iranian languages use the PIE word, I would guess that Kurdish salvaged an indigenous word to West Asia. I also found out that the Akkadian word for silver was sarpu, related to sarapu "to refine, smelt", which is really close to the Slavic words (e.g. serebo in Russian). The Neolithic origin of silver is thus further reinforced.
    Ok, but like Taranis above me I'm not sure about the origin of Kurdish 'ziv'.

    Btw silver in Russian is 'serebRo' (with 'r').

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    I was wondering about the word guard guardian etc

    comparing with Greek PIE not Hellenic it might cognate with word Surd = quardians
    Sardeis etc, Slavic Kara etc

    comparing with Scand/an mythology we find the word Asgaard,
    Asgaard might cognate with Turkic Asker (army)

    I choose the post because it might be not IE word, the guardian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    I was wondering about the word guard guardian etc

    comparing with Greek PIE not Hellenic it might cognate with word Surd = quardians
    Sardeis etc, Slavic Kara etc
    I'm not sure but, I'm pretty certain that "guard" and "surd" have different etymologies. I'll get back to this.

    comparing with Scand/an mythology we find the word Asgaard,
    Asgaard might cognate with Turkic Asker (army)

    I choose the post because it might be not IE word, the guardian
    The word "asgard" is firmly Indo-European. It is a compound of "As-" (as in "Aesir", the gods, compare with the Hindu "Asuras") and "-g(h)ard(h)" ("enclosure" as in English "garden", Russian "город" "gorod", meaning "city", and Hindi "घर" "ghara", meaning "house").

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    English "guard" is from french "garde" from Frankish *wardo-, West-Germanic *wardo-, from PIE *wer- "to guard, look out for" (see Latin "vereri" - to be worried", Greek "horaoo" - to look).
    English "guardian" is from french "gardien" from Frankisch *warding-, "the guarding one" also from *wardo- etc.
    Please search better for a word before posting, for example in the Online Etymology Dictionary (English), or etymologiebank (Dutch).

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