Germanic words of non ie origin

spongetaro

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Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins (from Wikipedia):

Seafaring

seaSeezeesjömareθάλασσα
(thalassa)
море
(more)
shipSchiffschipskeppnavisπλοίο
(ploio)
плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))
strand (beach)Strandstrandstrandlitus, actaπαραλία
(paralia)
берег
(bereg)
ebbEbbeebebbdecessus, recessusάμπωτις
(ampotis)
отлив
(otliv)
steersteuernbesturenstyragubernoκυβερνώ
(kuberno)
управлять
(upravlyat)
sailsegelnzeilenseglanavigoπλέω
(pleo)
плавать
(plavat)
keelKielkielkölcarinaκαρίνα
(karina)
киль
(kil)
northNordennoordennordseptentrionesβορράς
(borras)
север
(sever)
southSüdenzuidensydaustralis, meridiesνότος
(notos)
юг
(yug)
eastOstenoostenöstoriensανατολή (anatoli)восток
(vostok)
westWestenwestenvästoccidensδύση
(dysi)
запад
(zapad)

Warfare/weapons
swordSchwertzwaardsvärdgladiusσπαθί
(spathi)
меч
(mech)
shieldSchildschildsköldscutumασπίδα
(aspida)
щит
(shchit)
helmetHelmhelmhjälmgaleaκράνος
(kranos)
шлем
(shlem)
bowBogenboogbågearcusτόξο
(toxo)
лук
(luk)

Communal
kingKönigkoningkungrexβασιλεύϛ
(basileus)
король
(korol)
knight*Knechtknechtknektservitusυπηρέτης
(ypiretis)
слуга
(sluga)
thingDingdingtingresπράγμα
(pragma)
вещь
(veshch)

English German Dutch Swedish Latin Greek Russian
 
Interesting thread, Spongetaro. I found this hypothesis quite interesting, but I admit I do not know about the latest discussion of it. What is clear is that many words originally considered of non-IE origin do actually have cognates in other IE languages, so the list has been getting smaller and smaller.

Of the words above, 'helmet' definitely is a cognate with PIE *k´el- ("to hide"), which is (amongst other places) found in:

- Latin 'celere' (to hide), which is in turn the source of the English word 'conceal').
- Greek 'kalypto' (to hide), which is in turn found in the word 'apocalypse)
- Lithuanian 'šalmas' (helmet)
- the Thracian deity name 'Zalmoxis'
- interestingly, the Slavic word for 'helmet' appears to be in turn a loan from Germanic.

Likewise, 'east' is a cognate with PIE 'aues-' (to shine), which include:
- word for gold: Latin 'aurum', Gaulish 'auron', Irish 'ór', Welsh 'aur', Albanian 'ar', Lithuanian 'auksas'
- word for dawn: Latin 'aurora' (dawn), Greek 'eos' (dawn, morning), Lithuanian 'aušra'
 
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins (from Wikipedia):

Seafaring
seaSeezeesjömareθάλασσα
(thalassa)
море
(more)
shipSchiffschipskeppnavisπλοίο
(ploio)
плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))
strand (beach)Strandstrandstrandlitus, actaπαραλία
(paralia)
берег
(bereg)
ebbEbbeebebbdecessus, recessusάμπωτις
(ampotis)
отлив
(otliv)
steersteuernbesturenstyragubernoκυβερνώ
(kuberno)
управлять
(upravlyat)
sailsegelnzeilenseglanavigoπλέω
(pleo)
плавать
(plavat)
keelKielkielkölcarinaκαρίνα
(karina)
киль
(kil)
northNordennoordennordseptentrionesβορράς
(borras)
север
(sever)
southSüdenzuidensydaustralis, meridiesνότος
(notos)
юг
(yug)
eastOstenoostenöstoriensανατολή (anatoli)восток
(vostok)
westWestenwestenvästoccidensδύση
(dysi)
запад
(zapad)








Warfare/weapons
swordSchwertzwaardsvärdgladiusσπαθί
(spathi)
меч
(mech)
shieldSchildschildsköldscutumασπίδα
(aspida)
щит
(shchit)
helmetHelmhelmhjälmgaleaκράνος
(kranos)
шлем
(shlem)
bowBogenboogbågearcusτόξο
(toxo)
лук
(luk)








Communal
kingKönigkoningkungrexβασιλεύϛ
(basileus)
король
(korol)
knight*Knechtknechtknektservitusυπηρέτης
(ypiretis)
слуга
(sluga)
thingDingdingtingresπράγμα
(pragma)
вещь
(veshch)


hmm
about marine words

Greek sea als αλς-αλος also salt αλς-αλατος I see connection

ship, ok there is not but there is a word sκαφη-σκαφος a small boat like a pit. (skaf -schif - ship)
original word comes from virb σκαπτω (dig) but when in sol is ekskafi but when in log of wood is skafi σκαφη, consider that as a canoe, main use was for laundry, but also as a kind of surf board, the original words for ships are
Lembos (small, als+embaino = the one that is safe to enter sea, a als+embark a barka)
akatos (small no carine system due to its shape)
naias ( big a pelasgian word)
ploio plio (big from virb Πλεω flow)
Dromon (fast dromeas = runner)
triiris (τριηρεις - 3 times fast)
etc
a boat that is from one log only that is excavated to take shape of a boat is skafi



the Greco-Thracians that are from black sea name their selfs Strantza-lides
there was a city named like that in front the sea,
I think Varna's first name Strand-za,

sail well 2 words ισαλος isal-os and salos σαλος
ισαλος the line of how the ship is in the water, (how good a ship can sail)
salos is the strange weather, the effects of storm, the big waves the move the ship uncontroled,
σαλεμενη θαλασσα = mad sea = a sea that has waves but no bad weather (waves can go away from storm center)

the ebb and ab-otis I think have connection

east well the Greek word is Εως Eos compare Εως- Ηους Eos-Ius

about sword spathi exist in modern but is wrong means in pocket from old virb ξεσ-πατ-ωνω get out of pocket-package
the original word is machaira μαχαιρα and the older xifei (ξιφος)

the helmet case
well the older in mycenean style helmet were made by calcium and wool,
why cause a copper materil is heavy and warm, and if a haevy thing strikes it it might broke or change shape so harms the head,
so they use a cover by wool and on it they sew many bones or sea shells
the greek word for shell is κελυφος and was really good against arrows,
also the armor alternate word for animals is kelyfos
maybe a connection among shell and helmet via Greek Kelyfos (k-h)

the shield has many names like oplon dipylon aegis, aspis was not the shild exactly but a system of a man who carry a big shield to protect, compare υπ-ασπις-της and the words aspondos ασπονδος - σπονδη spondi


As you see the compare give many words not clear Germanic but IE at least since exist at least in 2 languages,


The thing I can not connect with Modern Meaning but is connected with Clear meaning is the King

in Greek simmilar word is only the gig γιγ so the most possible is the γιγ-ας compare Lydian γυγης Hyges
so the only connection is the Phrygian word Gyges and the Greek Gigantes (giants)
 
- interestingly, the Slavic word for 'helmet' appears to be in turn a loan from Germanic.


Celtic "
cingeto" (brave, warrior)also seems to be borrowed from proto germanic "ginxti-z" (to go).
I also found that Sumerian and proto Germanic had a similar word for King, but I'm not sure about that
 
The common assumption is that proto-Germanic formed in the Nordic Bronze Age, right? Wouldn't that place the formation of Germanic in a location that had been speaking IE already (provided that all of Corded Ware spoke IE)? It's true that Germanic peoples seem to have a good amount of pre-IE lineages in their DNA, but even so, it seems like pre-IE contributions to proto-Germanic would have been a substratum of a substratum.

Considering that the R1b (U106) that apparently was the final influence on proto-Germanic is a cousin to that of the Italo-Celts, and the R1a is a cousin to that of the Balto-Slavs... maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum. Does that match the general understanding?
 


Celtic "
cingeto" (brave, warrior)also seems to be borrowed from proto germanic "ginxti-z" (to go).
I also found that Sumerian and proto Germanic had a similar word for King, but I'm not sure about that

I'm not sure about that. I agree that the Celtic word 'cingeto-' poses a problem, however. The most obvious choice would be (in my opinion) the PIE root *g´hengh- (to step, to march), which is found in German 'gang' (go, walk), Lithuanian 'žingsnis' (step). If this is case, we can think of the Celtic word originally meaning "foot soldier".

The problem is that we would expect *g´hengh- to yield something like "gingeto-'. Since we don't see this, one can speculate if the word is borrowed from elsewhere. It does not fit Germanic, in my opinion, especially if you consider that the First Germanic Sound Shift occured at a time when the Celtic languages were already differentiated.

The common assumption is that proto-Germanic formed in the Nordic Bronze Age, right? Wouldn't that place the formation of Germanic in a location that had been speaking IE already (provided that all of Corded Ware spoke IE)? It's true that Germanic peoples seem to have a good amount of pre-IE lineages in their DNA, but even so, it seems like pre-IE contributions to proto-Germanic would have been a substratum of a substratum.

Considering that the R1b (U106) that apparently was the final influence on proto-Germanic is a cousin to that of the Italo-Celts, and the R1a is a cousin to that of the Balto-Slavs... maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum. Does that match the general understanding?

Broadly, yeah. There is a very ancient connection between Germanic and Balto-Slavic (which predates the Centum-Satem split), but in regard for later development, Germanic has more commonalities with the Celtic and Italic languages.
 
Considering that the R1b (U106) that apparently was the final influence on proto-Germanic is a cousin to that of the Italo-Celts, and the R1a is a cousin to that of the Balto-Slavs... maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum. Does that match the general understanding?

There is also the possibility that U106 was already in Europe during the Corded Ware, in its western part
 
maybe it's best to think of proto-Germanic as having a para-proto-Italo-Celtic superstratum over a para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum over a pre-IE sub-substratum.

That para-proto-Balto-Slavic substratum in the corded ware area would be Hans Krahe's Old European area
 
I'm not sure about that. I agree that the Celtic word 'cingeto-' poses a problem, however. The most obvious choice would be (in my opinion) the PIE root *g´hengh- (to step, to march), which is found in German 'gang' (go, walk), Lithuanian 'žingsnis' (step). If this is case, we can think of the Celtic word originally meaning "foot soldier".

how about to compare it with giant Γιγας-Γιγαντος

or the Dacian word Konka-konga = Holy (gog??)
 
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There are plenty of words in English (from Anglo-Saxon ?) with apparently non-IE origins too.

Here are a few examples among animal names : bird, dog, horse, pig...
 
There are plenty of words in English (from Anglo-Saxon ?) with apparently non-IE origins too.

Here are a few examples among animal names : bird, dog, horse, pig...

I agree that all of those have no IE etymology, except possibly 'horse'. It can potentially be derived from PIE *k´ers, and if that is the case, it's a cognate with Latin 'cursus', which in turn found it's way into English as 'course'.
 
I still do not understand you guys


Bird compare it with Greek πτιλα πτιρα πυτιρα πτερυγα all mean feathers wings

dog Thracian Δακος Greek virb δαγκωνω Bite, root is Dag
also the old medicine word for bites is Δηγμα
etc

as I already posted above many of these words are IE
 
I still do not understand you guys


Bird compare it with Greek πτιλα πτιρα πυτιρα πτερυγα all mean feathers wings

That's not possible, because Greek 'p' does not correspond with Germanic 'b'. It would have to be 'φ' in Greek.

dog Thracian Δακος Greek virb δαγκωνω Bite, root is Dag
also the old medicine word for bites is Δηγμα
etc

Likewise, Greek *d would generally correspond to *t in Germanic. Any Greek cognate would have 'θ' in it.

as I already posted above many of these words are IE

Yes, absolutely. But the cognates you propose simply do not work out, I'm afraid.
 
That's not possible, because Greek 'p' does not correspond with Germanic 'b'. It would have to be 'φ' in Greek.



Likewise, Greek *d would generally correspond to *t in Germanic. Any Greek cognate would have 'θ' in it.



Yes, absolutely. But the cognates you propose simply do not work out, I'm afraid.

Shot to the point Taranis

Germanic Bird
Ancient Greek πτιλα πτιρα πυτιλα πυτιρα (ionic-doric forms) πτερα πτερυγιο
BUT MODERN GREEK Φτερα φτερουγα
so indeed b connects to φ !!!!!!!

now about dog and δαγκ (thag as th in they)
just remember that at least in English the th has 2 sounds one the th as in they (Δ) and the other is as thou or as thomas (th is θ)
so a clear aspiration or a standard transformation is not clear, at least in English part of Germanic
th = θ ορ Δ

I think you have your wanted aspirations,
besides it depends on which Greek we take as standard and which Germanic
we take Homeric Attic Ionian Doric Makedonian Hellenistic modern etc
also we take the Hannover's German, the Bavarian the saxon's ,the gothic or another form,

so it is more possible at least for me
that root δαγκ-dag is more connected with dog
than the virb Dig which at least do not exist in Greek ( I do not know in any other IE)

besides you know that Greek have many anomalies like lose or enter letters
and compare with virb εγειρω noun εγερσις english raise or rise
( loses i and gets an s, in English past is rose) than with english erase

besides οδοντας - οδοντος -> tooth but the doctor is dentist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so in tooth we see clearly the transformations but in Dentist or Dental?

a good example of my words is the bellow

Πους- ποδος becomes foot so π -> φ
but
πυξ - πυγμης πυγμαχια becomes box-boxing
πυθμην-πυθμενος becomes Bottom

so here π -> Β !!!!!!

yes πυτλα-πυτιρα-πτιλα-πτιρα becomes feathers
why not πτερ-υξ -> bird ?? if Π can go B pter -> bert-> bird??
compare greek πτη-νο
root in greek is πετε -> πετερ-υξ
πετε-ινο - πετεινο-> πτηνο
πετε-ω ->πετω = fly
the distance from fly to wing to bird to feathers is big comparing the
πετεω -πεταω-πετω πτερυξ and πτηνο and πιτυλα-πτιλα

leaving out the wing the rest has a common theme
so they are IE
consider that Πτερυξ in modern greek follows the nova roma thracian idiom and is φτερο
 
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Here are a few more Germanic words with no cognates in other IE languages.

Animals

boar
chick, chicken
eel
lamb
rabbit
sheep
toad

(in addition to bird, dog, horse and pig already mentioned)

Body parts

back
body
bone
brain
cheek
finger
leg
liver
neck
shoulder
skull
toe

Others

all
beacon
broad
child
dim
dream
drink
drive
dwarf
flee
gray
ground
oak
paddock
quake
rain
roof
scathe
shoe
soul
steel
swallow
tin
top
trend
 
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Here are a few more Germanic words with no cognates in other IE languages.

Animals

boar
chick, chicken
eel
lamb
rabbit
sheep
toad

(in addition to bird, dog, horse and pig already mentioned)

Body parts

back
body
bone
brain
cheek
finger
leg
liver
neck
shoulder
skull
toe

Others

all
beacon
broad
child
dim
dream
drink
drive
dwarf
flee
gray
ground
oak
paddock
quake
rain
roof
scathe
shoe
soul
steel
swallow
tin
top
trend


bird eel all roof top are not german but wider ID

compare

πτερ-υξ - bird ελλυ-ες - eel ολ-ος - all οροφ-η - roof

top is connected with up compare επα-νω up <-> επαν-
also back goes with οπισθεν οπισ π<->b σ<->s or c like opis->obic -> back
also flee might have a PIE connection thrugh ψυλλος = πσυλλ π->φ φσυλλ -> φλλυ -?φλη ->flee
also beacon might have with παις π->b σ->s.c ->baic->beac-on

I think that the bellow words are not German but IE since we find simmilar roots in 2 IE languages

bird eel all roof top back flee beacon

another interesting case is also the shoulder and skull
in the anatomy the front bone of shoulder is ΚΛΕΙΔΑ and head is kefalli κεφαλλη
kleida k->c->sh
kefalli -> kaell ->skull
although I believe the above must be compared with another IE language also
 
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Maciamo, I've taken the list you posted and searched for some etymologies. Most of the words have PIE etymologies or cognates in other IE languages, but there's a few words which are definitely non IE, marked bold. For those that are marked with a question mark, I haven't found anything (yet):

Animals


boar - uncertain, but German "Eber" has a cognate with Latin "Aper"
chick, chicken - possible
eel - ?
lamb - possible, otherwise *el ('red')
rabbit - ?
sheep - ?
toad - ?


(in addition to bird, dog, horse and pig already mentioned)


Body parts


back - ?
body - ?
bone - from PIE *bhei- (to hit, to strike)
brain - ?
cheek - ?
finger - from PIE *penkwe (five)
leg - unclear, but from an earlier *lek-
liver - from *jekwr-?: Latin 'iecur', Lithuanian 'jaknos'
neck - ?
shoulder - possibly from PIE *skel- (to owe, to be guilty, compare German "Schulden" vs. "schultern")
skull - ?
toe - from PIE *deik´ (compare German "Zehe", which requires and earlier *teih)


Others


all - from PEI *al(io)- "the other", compare Latin 'alios', Gaulish 'allos'
beacon - from PIE *bhā- (to shine, glister), compare Greek 'Phaeton'
broad - Proto-Germanic *braidaz, uncertain origin
child - PIE *gel- (to curl, to form), compare Latin "globus", Russian "glaz" (orb)
dim - from PIE *dhem- (to blow, compare Sanskrit 'dhamati')
dream - from PIE *dreugh (to harm, to deceive)
drink - unclear, but requires an earlier *dhreg
drive - unclear, but requires an earlier *dhreibh
dwarf - unclear, but requires an earlier *dhwergh
flee - from PIE *pleu- (to run, to flow)
gray - from PIE *g´her- (to shine, to glisten)
ground - from PIE *ghren - (to grind, to rub)
oak - unclear, but requires an earlier *aig- (or more likely *aig´?), maybe related with Latvian 'ozols', Lithuanian 'azuolas'
paddock - compare German 'Pferch', from Proto-Germanic *parrukaz?, possibly from PIE *(s)per, but not originally Germanic.
quake - unclear, but requires an earlier *gwog- (PIE?)
rain - unclear, but compare German 'regen' and Latin 'rigare' (to wash)
roof - unclear, but the ancient form (Anglo-Saxon, Old Norse 'hrof') requires an earlier *krap-
scathe - compare Greek "askētēs"
shoe - PIE *(s)keu- (to wrap, to hide)
soul - ?
steel - from PIE *stak- ("to stand, to resist" - cf. Sanskrit "stakati")
swallow - ?
tin - yes, absolutely non-IE
top - from PIE *dei? (to share, to divide)
trend - ?
 
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broad - Proto-Germanic *braidaz, uncertain origin
Lith. brada - ford
 
More words :

begin
berry
blond
key
ice
leek
luck
oat
race (as in car race)
reed
shake
shall
shy
skirmish
threshold
 
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