Politics European Identity.

I think Iran is getting a A bomb mainly for these reasons:
- to feel more secure among neighbors, which already have A bomb.
- deterrent against being attacked by USA or Israel.
- huge ego and ambitions of Iranian leaders. This actually could be a main reason. There is still a popular mindset in middle east that to mean something in the world one needs to be a superpower. These countries have more numerous armies and spend bigger percentage of GDP, than most better off european counterparts.
- to suck out money from US and Europe. I know N Korea played similar game before. US and S Korea payed billions of dollars to North to stop developing nuclear weapons, plus supply of peaceful nuclear technologies for free. Well N Korea has the bomb now and billions of dollars. What a sweet deal!
Sucking out the ****** is also played by Pakistan, who is pretending to fight Taliban for 10 billion a year of US help. Iran is pretending not to build A bomb, obviously not for free.

Having said that, if I was in Israel and have heard, through years, assurances from Iran government about whipping me out off existence, seeing Iran's willingness to support terrorism against Israel and ongoing effort to built A bomb, what would I do? Asked people around "Iran is just kidding, right?", and prayed for the best?
 
I think Iran is getting a A bomb mainly for these reasons:
- to feel more secure among neighbors, which already have A bomb.
- deterrent against being attacked by USA or Israel.
- huge ego and ambitions of Iranian leaders. This actually could be a main reason. There is still a popular mindset in middle east that to mean something in the world one needs to be a superpower. These countries have more numerous armies and spend bigger percentage of GDP, than most better off european counterparts.
- to suck out money from US and Europe. I know N Korea played similar game before. US and S Korea payed billions of dollars to North to stop developing nuclear weapons, plus supply of peaceful nuclear technologies for free. Well N Korea has the bomb now and billions of dollars. What a sweet deal!
Sucking out the ****** is also played by Pakistan, who is pretending to fight Taliban for 10 billion a year of US help. Iran is pretending not to build A bomb, obviously not for free.

Having said that, if I was in Israel and have heard, through years, assurances from Iran government about whipping me out off existence, seeing Iran's willingness to support terrorism against Israel and ongoing effort to built A bomb, what would I do? Asked people around "Iran is just kidding, right?", and prayed for the best?
I agree with you they are not generally good people. When Ahmedinedschad smiles, milk turns sour and a spotless blue sky gets clouded instantaneously, but this far he is obviously logic and smart enough to stay in power. You can only stay in power when you are not in the hereafter. So a comparison with terrorism is not well chosen, because you can't get away with a nuclear war. It sums it up like this: Iran building a nuclear bomb is a win-win situation for the regime. Whatever its enemies do it will get those in trouble who try and try not. It is choosing between two evils and it will escalate if they think have nothing to loose any more.

And do not forget Iran struggles with its own internal problems. With all the new developments in the M.E. the end for this regime could be in sight very soon. Maybe after the next presidential elections (2013?) people in the cities will rise again like they did in 2009.
 
I hope Christaan that you are right. And only hope we have, because if we can learn from history, most european politicians didn't believe Hitler's speeches nor his book. In spirit of hoping nothing was done in advance to stop Hitler, who shortly proved them wrong in a very ugly way. Steep price for humanity for not believing a person in power.
If Israel strikes Iranian military sites, can we blame them for not wanting to rely on hope only?
 
People arn't seeing this through Israel's perspective. Hezbola is a proxy of Iran, Iran doesn't need to fire a nuke at Israel, they just have to let Hezbola do it, or just give them a dirty bomb. Israel has been in hostile relations with its neighbours since its inception, they had many wars and conflicts throughout its life. People that don't live in this kind of environment can not judge this correctly, if you were a jewish/Isreali citizen living in Israel, would you want Iran to have a nuke? Iran doesn't have a responcible government, they don't deserve this kind of technology.

I think there will be a armed conflict with Iran, what nature it will be I can only guess. America moved all its troops out of Iraq so they won't be potential targets by Iranian forces, or to deploy them into Iran. Unless we work in the Amercian government or secret services, we don't know 100% of what goes on diplomatically in the Middle East, only what the news sources tell us.

I'm a strong supporter of a nuclear-free Iran.
 
Well, well, well...

This thread started well, trying to find the normally elusive (but sometimes evident according to the situation, as Muzungu well explained), and now we have it deviated to the "need to bomb Iran", because of the insistace of Kgnju.

By the way, recently the mayor-general Zhang Zhaozhong said explicitly "China will defend Iran even with WW III if necessary"... so I don't know why precisely "Kgnju from Beijing ( 北京 )", brings that theme.

:(

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/12/chinese-general-threatens-us-with-world-war-3-over-iran/

Then, we have here some supporters of the idea that Iran should be bombed, and there are given some "bold" arguments about that.

(Curiously, Elias2 that is Jewish is the most moderate of all).

The things that I find most unconfortable, are the following two...


A. While I agree that Europe (specially Germany) is somehow moraly indebted with Israel - as Cimerianbroke said - I don't believe that that indebtness should be expressed as enmity against other peoples.

I know that the theme of Jews/Israel is very sensitive inside Germany, they are very sensitive about things like Holocaustleugnung (negation of Holocaust) which one can comprehend, and some others that plainly do not make sense when seen from outside (Holocaustrelativierung).

But after all, that are internal German laws and politics, which one should respect.

However, as the recent voting in the UNESCO showed, other peoples (the majority) in regard to the Palestinean-Israeli theme, do not feel any "indebtedness" or "Schuldkomplex" and they plainly vote as its own (according to me, more objective) concousness dictates.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/01/unesco-countries-vote-palestinian-membership

+++++++++++++++++++

B. The other thing in which I feel compelled to comment, is this statement of @LeBrok:

In this case it's more about survival and peace dictated in western terms, than equality and morality. I hope Iran is smart enough to see it

Maybe they see it clearly, and they refuse to obey?

(... In the name of the Crown X, I declare this land to belong to the Kingdom Y... ) :D

Remember that the Iranians just landed a 30 million USD drone (the most advanced and expensive type) taking electronic control of it, the first time it tried to violate IRANIAN airspace.

You may not like them, but they have their pride.

And rights.

And if many people do not see it, believe me: Some others do.

Some do it because it appeals to their inherent sense of justice... others because they cannot prevent but to see themselves in Iran shoes (Russia? China?).

Regards.
 
Well, well, well...

This thread started well, trying to find the normally elusive (but sometimes evident according to the situation, as Muzungu well explained), and now we have it deviated to the "need to bomb Iran", because of the insistace of Kgnju.

By the way, recently the mayor-general Zhang Zhaozhong said explicitly "China will defend Iran even with WW III if necessary"... so I don't know why precisely "Kgnju from Beijing ( 北京 )", brings that theme.

:(

http://www.eutimes.net/2011/12/chinese-general-threatens-us-with-world-war-3-over-iran/

Then, we have here some supporters of the idea that Iran should be bombed, and there are given some "bold" arguments about that.

(Curiously, Elias2 that is Jewish is the most moderate of all).

I'm not Jewish, I can see things from many perspectives. Its very evident that the arabs/muslims don't want peace with Israel, they want Isreal off the map. Religion is still a big tool in the Middle East, it can and does manipulate people, Hezbola literally tanslates into "Army of God". The same can be said with Israel wanting to annex the west bank, which they are doing slowly over time, to fulfill their ancient dream of Judea promised in the Torah.

We are not politicians, we can talk directly with each other. Neither side wants peace with each other, they both have their malicious goals motivated by religion. Where the "West" is incorporated with this is similar to the events of the Iraq-Iran war, any conflict that disrupts oil exports hurts Western economies, in todays recession this is not an option. Of course the Jewish lobby does have a huge influence in American politics, combined by the fact that the "west" has been struggling with Islamic terrorism has caused a very anti-Islam mainstream thought in North America and Europe.

B. The other thing in which I feel compelled to comment, is this statement of @LeBrok:



Maybe they see it clearly, and they refuse to obey?

(... In the name of the Crown X, I declare this land to belong to the Kingdom Y... ) :D

Remember that the Iranians just landed a 30 million USD drone (the most advanced and expensive type) taking electronic control of it, the first time it tried to violate IRANIAN airspace.

You may not like them, but they have their pride.

And rights.

And if many people do not see it, believe me: Some others do.

Some do it because it appeals to their inherent sense of justice... others because they cannot prevent but to see themselves in Iran shoes (Russia? China?).

Regards.

Iran can choose to follow what course it wants to, but it has to be responcible for the outcome. Now we are entering into a double standard politic, domestic vs. international. Iran doesn't repsect the wishes and represses its own population who do demand for better rights, but on the other hand your arguement is that we should show them the same rights they don't show their people? I don't agree with this. If Iran was a fully democratic human rights persueing nation then yes, I would support the Iranian nuclear program. But the Iranian government is a theocratic dictatorship with psuedo-elections. In my opinion this type of government doesn't deserve nuclear technology.

China and Russia won't support Iran for the simple reason of economics, they don't have anythign to benifit from it. China export market is America, and Russia is about to enter the World Trade Organization, they both have zero to gain for straining relations with the worlds biggest markets.
 
when EU gets embassies as EU and not as countries then we might speak of a clear European identity,

until today we all are Europeans, but first we are our private nation ID,

meaning that each one of us trust first his nation and then the neighbor european and then the rest,

a good example of that is that at least all EU countries have their own embassies at foreign lands
 
I'm not Jewish, I can see things from many perspectives. Its very evident that the arabs/muslims don't want peace with Israel, they want Isreal off the map. Religion is still a big tool in the Middle East, it can and does manipulate people, Hezbola literally tanslates into "Army of God". The same can be said with Israel wanting to annex the west bank, which they are doing slowly over time, to fulfill their ancient dream of Judea promised in the Torah.

Certainly we have a religious differences here. But many times these real differences are used as a "smoke screen" to hide other reasons for conflict between Israelis and Palestineans/Arabs. But I agree with what you said above and I will leave it at that.

Iran can choose to follow what course it wants to, but it has to be responcible for the outcome. Now we are entering into a double standard politic, domestic vs. international. Iran doesn't repsect the wishes and represses its own population who do demand for better rights, but on the other hand your arguement is that we should show them the same rights they don't show their people? I don't agree with this. If Iran was a fully democratic human rights persueing nation then yes, I would support the Iranian nuclear program. But the Iranian government is a theocratic dictatorship with psuedo-elections. In my opinion this type of government doesn't deserve nuclear technology.

I think that Iran should be compared with other Muslim countries in the Middle East, and you will see that something do not fit with the argument that "Democracy" is a factor of the especial hostility of the West towards them.

For starters, against whom have Israel/West done or manaced with war in the last years?

Lebanon, Palestina, Syria, Libya, Iran... precisely against the most modern regimes, the ones that give/gave women and religious minorities more rights, in most of which there was/are actually elections.

On the contrary, everything (and I mean everything, including massacres of defensless peaceful proterstors) is allowed to the medieval monarchies of the Middle East. And we know that the real reason is not "democracy", "right of the women", and so on, but simply because they are docile with the West or accomodating to the Israli policy.

China and Russia won't support Iran for the simple reason of economics, they don't have anythign to benifit from it. China export market is America, and Russia is about to enter the World Trade Organization, they both have zero to gain for straining relations with the worlds biggest markets.

Israel is now very angy with Russia because it just supplied S-300 and "Yakhont" to Syria. The Russian and Chinese (at least until now) block a UN resolution against Syria. At the moment no one could say if the Syrian regime will survive with the last-hour support from Moscow and Beijing. The fact is that they are supporting it, not only against the West and Israel, but also against the corrupt arab Monarchies.

Why do they do that? :unsure:

"Hey!! Why could we just not drop all our guns and live like a one big happy family!!" :heart:

( Yes you drop your guns... and we will do the sacrifice to arms ourselves to "protect democracy and free markets".... :grin: )

So like in the mass media of the West the effort is done to show the Palestineans as "Arab fanatics" that hate Israel just for the fact of being populated by Jews, so in said madia really very rarely is shown the reasons why Russians and Chinese (or Iranians, or many others) have reasons to distrust the West.

Why have just the Russians put "Iskander" missiles in Kaliningrad/Königsberg?

These crazy Russians over-react at the slightest thing? They do that because they want to distract their own population of internal problems? Or is it that the West pushed them and finally they were left with no choice?

You say that the Russians and Chinese should follow "an economical logic" and "self interest" in their international relations.

Who tells you they have not followed them since many years ago?

Regards.
 
I think that Iran should be compared with other Muslim countries in the Middle East, and you will see that something do not fit with the argument that "Democracy" is a factor of the especial hostility of the West towards them.

For starters, against whom have Israel/West done or manaced with war in the last years?

Lebanon, Palestina, Syria, Libya, Iran... precisely against the most modern regimes, the ones that give/gave women and religious minorities more rights, in most of which there was/are actually elections.

Democracy is not the only factor about the hostilities with Iran, but it does give the "west" the moral high ground. The practical reasons we have discussed before. I also have to disagree with you about the concept of "modern regimes". These regimes arn't cracking down on religious extremist because they disagree with them, but because they see them as a threat to their rule. I would disagree when you say they also gave religious minorities rights, I would term it more as protection. Mubarak would intervien against the violence against the coptic christians, but he wouldn't promote their rights. Many laws under mubarak did not change that supressed the coptics. The same can be said with Assad and the Orthodox and catholics in Syria.

On the contrary, everything (and I mean everything, including massacres of defensless peaceful proterstors) is allowed to the medieval monarchies of the Middle East. And we know that the real reason is not "democracy", "right of the women", and so on, but simply because they are docile with the West or accomodating to the Israli policy.

There is a double standard of american policy. Saudi Arabia ia aurguably the worse human rights violating arab country but nothing bad is said about them:confused: Turkey also has repression and violation of freedoms but they are a key American ally so nothing bad is said about them either. It's a double standard.

Israel is now very angy with Russia because it just supplied S-300 and "Yakhont" to Syria. The Russian and Chinese (at least until now) block a UN resolution against Syria. At the moment no one could say if the Syrian regime will survive with the last-hour support from Moscow and Beijing. The fact is that they are supporting it, not only against the West and Israel, but also against the corrupt arab Monarchies.

Why do they do that? :unsure:

"Hey!! Why could we just not drop all our guns and live like a one big happy family!!" :heart:

( Yes you drop your guns... and we will do the sacrifice to arms ourselves to "protect democracy and free markets".... :grin: )

So like in the mass media of the West the effort is done to show the Palestineans as "Arab fanatics" that hate Israel just for the fact of being populated by Jews, so in said madia really very rarely is shown the reasons why Russians and Chinese (or Iranians, or many others) have reasons to distrust the West.

Why have just the Russians put "Iskander" missiles in Kaliningrad/Königsberg?

These crazy Russians over-react at the slightest thing? They do that because they want to distract their own population of internal problems? Or is it that the West pushed them and finally they were left with no choice?

You say that the Russians and Chinese should follow "an economical logic" and "self interest" in their international relations.

Who tells you they have not followed them since many years ago?

Regards.

Yup, all this points to a conflict in the near future. We can discuss the validity of all this but it won't prevent it. Though I want to ask you to clarify what you mean when Russia and China were pushed into this senario. The only people that should worry about dictators being disposed is other dictators. Or China and Russia want to play some power politics with America? we will see.

cheers.
 
In reality my participation in this thread came from the need to express my points of view, in the sense that it should be noted that in these themes many people in and outside Europe perceive the things very differently from the mainstream media.

I really don't want that my participations in these forums - while they last - orient too much to these polemic themes.

Though I want to ask you to clarify what you mean when Russia and China were pushed into this senario. The only people that should worry about dictators being disposed is other dictators.

Elias2, for knowing that, you (or anyone else) that really want to know why Russians and Chinese are uneasy, they need just to take the effort to search for it in Internet. Is really three clics away.... these people ARE NOT MUTE.

It is just that many westerners do not take the effort to go to Russian, Chinese, Syrian, or Iranian sources, and many believe that what appears in their own mainstream media is "all that it is", or that there are not other sources that even contradict what appears in said media.

Regardig the thing about dictactors... it have been said many times: "Who decides who is a dictator?"

Regards.
 
I feel European more than any other thing, more than Italian. I don't believe too much in national sense of belonging. I recognize my blood and part of my heart is Italian, but there are many factors that contribute to build an identity...Blood, heart, reason, experiences. It would be limitative to say I'm just Italian, Europe (as an union of cultures with common roots, not as E.U. of course) is what really represent me better.
This is a good balance of my feelings about identity, not too strict, not too large and dispersive. It is something that I really feel: my place in the world is Europe.
 
I feel very European. In fact, if I could trade in my NL passport for a full EU passport i wouldn't think twice.
When I look at Europe and the products we put on the world market I gain a sence of pride. Be it the Dutch handling of water, the Champagne from France, the major motor companies (VW, BMW, Ferarri, Lamborghini, Aston, etc, etc) the Airbus aircraft, and many more! i fill with pride when i'm overseas to enter a country outside the EU and hand over my EU passport (be it the dutch version of it) for a stamp.
 
I think a European identity exists and is in a growing process (could end if EU falls apart). But I think this European identity feeling is not big at this time. National thinking is still way more present. We are still many small countries on a small piece of land on the Earth. We have lots of cultural and historical things in common but still we are very different. I can not imagine how to realize a successful european state with the U.S. as model. So many languages, cultures and interests.

First I feel as a German, maybe northern German or Frisian or Low German or even Germanic. This European feeling is not very important to me, because most Europeans are not like me and my volk (culture, traditions, language et cetera). I feel home and related to people who are as much like me as possible and share the same background. I think that's natural. If I would have a passport what only says on the cover "Europäische Union" and inside "Europäer" and hand it over I would not be as proud as when I hand over my passport what says on the cover "Europäische Union Bundesrepublik Deutschland" and inside "Deutsch". Because "Deutsch" just tells more from my person, about who I am, where I am coming from and gives people a clearer view on me. If I would only be a European, wow awesome, I could come from Portugal or from Albania, from Iceland or from Cyprus... countries and volks I almost know nothing about, can't identify with them (maybe except Iceland [Germanic]). Next European generations could see it in another way, if the EU is doing a good job with creating a strong European identity feeling and at the same time doing a good job with eliminating national identity feeling.

I hope I don't get missunderstood and get understood at all. Had not much exercise in English since I'm out of school.
 
To me European Identity is a little complicated. I don't identify myself with everything European. I feel European outside Europe but once inside it I don't feel European anymore. What I really mean by it? I mean, being European I have to be proud of my predecessors Newton, Galileo, Beethoven etc.. And I am not. I feel like English should be proud of Newton, Italians of Galileo and so on... I remain Albanian for good or for bad. When I identify myself as European I do mostly out of necessity, because most people don't know where Albania is. To put it simple to me Europe is a big building where I have my own apartment.
 
Question: Does anyone think it is possible to have an European identity though they were born in America of European immigrants? Though living in the States I seem to identify more with Europe that my native land, hence my interest in this site and forum.
 
I would like to introduce myself. I am a student of European Studies at University Maastricht (Netherlands). At the moment I and 2 fellow students of our group are assigned to conduct a research on the "European Identity". We all live in a world of uncertainty, of social awareness, economic crisis and political efforts to improve the situation as a whole. Especially in these times of crisis, it is quite important to have the feeling of belonging in a group that shares common values, in other words, being united. Two main questions arise:

Whether you believe that European Identity exists?
Do you consider yourself European?

I believe it exists, although as much less important than national identity for most people. I would think that people would feel more European if they were of mixed European heritage and upbringing, and if they believed that there should be one European people rather than an amalgamation of nationalities.

That being said, i feel European in that i am on the same continent with ethnically and culturally fairly similar people, but it is not really a big deal. National identity is far more important, and i have no ill will towards other European nationalities.
 

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