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Thread: Latin & Greek words of non-Indo-European origin

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    Post Latin & Greek words of non-Indo-European origin



    I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

    It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

    I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

    Latin (French, Italian) >< PIE root

    - manducare (manger, mangiare) >< *ed-

    EDIT : here are more words

    - amygdala/amandula (amande, mandorla), from Greek amygdalos but not found in other IE languages

    - autumnus (automne, autunno), of unknown origin, possibly from Etruscan.

    - bestia (bête, bestia)

    - coda (queue, coda), unrelated to the PIE *puk(eha) or *wolos

    - elementem (element, elemento)

    - cylindrus (cylindre, cilindro) only related to Greek kylindros

    - famulus : Latin word for servant from which "family" is derived. Unrelated to the PIE roots *genhes or *wik

    - farcire (farcire, farcire)

    - finis (fin, fine), unrelated to the PIE root *termn-

    - honorem (honeur, onore), not found in other IE languages

    - largus (large, largo), unrelated to the PIE *megha or *mehro

    - male/malus (mal, male), not related to PIE *ghalh(x)ros nor *hedwol

    - metallum (métal, metallo), from Greek metallon, but differs from PIE word *h(a)eyes

    - miser (misère, misera), no similarity with other IE languages

    - (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.). No IE cognate.

    - nigrum (noir, nero), unrelated to the PIE *k(w)rsnos, *mel-n or *keir

    - oceanus (ocean, oceano), from Greek oceanos, but no cognates in other IE

    - ochra (ocre, ocra), from Greek ochra, but no cognates in other IE

    - phrasis (phrase, frase), from Greek phrasis (speech, way of speaking), but doesn't cognate with any IE word

    - populus (peuple, popolo), no cognate in other IE languages. Possibly from Etruscan.

    - purpura (pourpre, purpureo), from Greek porphyra which is of Semitic origin

    - radius (rayon, raggio/radio)

    - sanguis (sang, sangue), unrelated to the PIE *bhlo-to

    - silens (silence, silenzio), doesn't appear to be IE

    - sphæra (sphère, sfera) from Greek sphaira (globe, ball), of unknown origin.

    - totus/totalis (total, totale), no IE cognate

    - verdis (vert, verde), unrelated to the PIE *ker-, *kr-wos or *modheros, or to the PIE base *ghre- ("grow", from which the Germanic green derives)

    - volare (voler, volare), unrelated to the PIE *dih- or *pet-


    Greek words

    - auto- : prefix meaning "self", doesn't cognate in other IE languages

    - mythos : "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

    - elektron : Greek word for amber, no cognate in IE

    - xanthos : Greek word for yellow, no cognate in IE

    - The Greek for "thousand" (kilo or khilias) as well as the Latin one (mille) are unrelated to the PIE root *tuh(a)s-kmtyos found in all Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 09-12-11 at 01:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have explained in Revising the classification of Indo-European languages that Latin and Greek are probably hybrid languages with two major components: one Indo-European, and the other from an unknown West Asian language (probably long extinct). There may also be older Neolithic loanwords.

    It is evidently hard to identify words from an unknown extinct language, so the best way to proceed to to sieve the words that cannot be ascertain as Indo-European. This includes all the roots of unknown or uncertain origin.

    I will start by listing Latin words with their Italian and French derivatives, and show the lack of resemble to the Proto-Indo-European root.

    Latin (Italian, French) >< PIE root

    - manducare (mangiare, manger) >< *ed-


    (don't have time to continue this now. Will update later).
    "Manducare" comes from latin "mandare", which in turn comes from PIE *mhanos (hand: Proto-Germanic *mnha-to-, Albanian "marr", Hittite "maniyahh-", etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    "Manducare" comes from latin "mandare", which in turn comes from PIE *mhanos (hand: Proto-Germanic *mnha-to-, Albanian "marr", Hittite "maniyahh-", etc.)
    What's the connection with the meaning of eat and send (mandare) or hand (mano) ? It's not because they look similar that they are necessarily related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What's the connection with the meaning of eat and send (mandare) or hand (mano) ? It's not because they look similar that they are necessarily related.
    You're right, I mixed up. "Manducare" does come from "mandare", but this "mandare" (which means "chew") is etymologically unrelated to the other "mandare" (send).
    The "mandare" from where "manducare" comes is through a nasalized variant of "madere" (to wet: "madeo" (I wet) > "mando" (I chew)). This in turn comes from PIE *mehad (to become wet, to moist, to fat: see Old Irish "maidid" (breaks, gushes), Proto-Germanic *matiz (food), Old Indic "mada" (alcoholic beverage), etc.)

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    Interesting

    lets compare with a Food Mandrax
    the famous plant Aristotle describe as Mandragora

    Modern Greek μασαω (I chew) masao
    μασαμπουκα masabuka means good food to eat a lot comparing Brygian Bekos = baked, Bread

    Although it is modern Greek,
    But there I can't find alternate for chew in Greek
    so probably mangare means to chew and in Italian become to eat?

    a greek loan to Italian or Italian loan to Greek or both from another root, IE or not?

    I think the root gives also the Mandrax
    and a virb μαγκωνω mangono which Means to Grab to Bind so hard as with Teeth

    compare the ancient Greek word Μεγγενη ( a vice machine that holds steady objects)
    so the connection among chew (grab hold with teeth, or like teeth) becomes mangare in Italian


    the name of the machine is Μεγγενη mengeni
    the machine work as teeth when chew,
    so mangare might be the result after the teeth work

    PS
    to be honest the Homeric word μαγισσα (magician) for Kirke original meaning is not the one who makes magic, but the one who uses tricks to grab and hold you,
    so when a woman is crazy with a man she uses herbal or spell to hold him, so she wants to put him in meggene to μαγκωσει him, to petrify or astonish so she can hold and grab, to chew him
    (consider that the story of Kirke says that she turned them to pigs in order to chew them)
    μαγος and μαγισσα (magician) does not mean sorcerer or wizard but holder, master binder,
    the modern meaning of magician is due to time and vivid languages which by time give several meanings to the original ideas
    so if original proto word ment to eat or to grab with Teeth, or to chew I do not know,
    But I think a correct root of the word is found
    no matter IE or not, Italian or Greek or minor Asian

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    There have to be Latin words coming from non-IE sources, but manducare is not a good example. The relationship with the roots mentioned for "chewing" (mando) is clear via the character of Manducus, the glutton, represented with the mask of someone chewing. And I don't see it unlikely at all to relate mand- with *mad-, given that in other languages the meaning derived are also related to chewing, eating, drinking or food.

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    I have added many new words to the list. I think they will be much more difficult to reject than manducare.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have added many new words to the list. I think they will be much more difficult to reject than manducare.
    Very good. I do have a two words which I am confident about that you can remove them:

    - (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.).
    It actually has a cognate in Germanic: German "schmeißen" (to throw), compare English "to smite"

    - totus/totalis (total, totale)
    'totus' is actually of IE origin, however the meaning is changed from originally "tribe"/"people" (compare Gaulish "touta", Old Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud", German "Deutsch", Lithuanian "tauta") towards the meaning of "all" or "whole".

    Otherwise, I'd suggest you to definitely move the Greek loanwords into Latin over to Greek. It's clear that these words were borrowed from Greek into Latin, and not from a common third source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asturrulumbo View Post
    You're right, I mixed up. "Manducare" does come from "mandare", but this "mandare" (which means "chew") is etymologically unrelated to the other "mandare" (send).
    The "mandare" from where "manducare" comes is through a nasalized variant of "madere" (to wet: "madeo" (I wet) > "mando" (I chew)). This in turn comes from PIE *mehad (to become wet, to moist, to fat: see Old Irish "maidid" (breaks, gushes), Proto-Germanic *matiz (food), Old Indic "mada" (alcoholic beverage), etc.)
    ? what
    its magnar to eat and also for food
    mandare to send
    mastegar to chew
    mastego to feast
    midir to be moist


    in italian word for food is cibo - go figure ????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    Very good. I do have a two words which I am confident about that you can remove them:

    - (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.).
    It actually has a cognate in Germanic: German "schmeißen" (to throw), compare English "to smite"

    - totus/totalis (total, totale)
    'totus' is actually of IE origin, however the meaning is changed from originally "tribe"/"people" (compare Gaulish "touta", Old Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud", German "Deutsch", Lithuanian "tauta") towards the meaning of "all" or "whole".
    Thanks for pointing out these similarities. This certainly increases the likelihood of totus and (s)mittere to be of IE origin, although they could still be remnant words from a Neolithic language around the Alps if they aren't found in any other IE languages.

    Otherwise, I'd suggest you to definitely move the Greek loanwords into Latin over to Greek. It's clear that these words were borrowed from Greek into Latin, and not from a common third source.
    I will. I started with the Latin list and only added the Greek words as an afterthought. I am planning to reorganise everything in a table like for the Germanic words of non-IE origin.

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    Here are more non-IE Latin words, which are said to come from Etruscan:

    - arista (arête, arête)
    - atrium
    - balteus (borrowed into Germanic and gave English the word belt)
    - cærimonia (cérémonie, ceremonia)
    - fenestra (fenêtre, finestra)
    - harena (arène, arena) : originally meaning "sandy place"
    - mercatus (marché, mercato) : from merx (wares, merchandise)
    - militaris (militaire, militario) : from miles (soldier)
    - palatum (palais, palato)
    - servire (servir, servire) : from servus (serf, slave)
    - vernaculus (vernaculaire, vernacolo) from verna "home-born slave, native".
    - vulcanus (volcan, volcano)

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    More words (mostly vocabulary relating to the Mediterranean climate) :

    - angelus (ange, angelo) : perhaps from Semitic or another non-IE Middle-Eastern language
    - cicada (cigale, cicala) : not a native Latin word; perhaps a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
    - cucumerem (concombre, -) : perhaps from a pre-Italic Mediterranean language
    - cupressus (cyprès, cipresso) : from Greek kyparissos, probably from an unknown pre-Greek Mediterranean language.
    - dactylus (datte, dattero) : from Gk. daktylos ("finger, toe), from a Semitic source (Hebrew deqel, Aramaic diqla, Arabic daqal "date palm")
    - digitus (doigt, detto) : same as above, differ from the PIE word for finger *polikos
    - ficus (figue, fico) : from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language, possibly Semitic
    - laurus (laurier, alloro) : probably from a pre-IE Mediterranean language
    - mentha (menthe, menta) : from Greek minthe probably a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
    - lion : perhaps from Semitic
    - mulus (mule, mulo) : probably from a pre-Latin Mediterranean language.
    - norma (norme, norma)
    - pira (poire, pera)
    - plumbum (plomb, piombo) : probably borrowed from a lost Mediterranean language, perhaps Iberian.
    - racemus (raisin, -) : probably from the same ancient lost Mediterranean language
    - saccus (sac, sacco) : from Greek sakkos, from Semitic (Hebrew saq "sack")
    - spongia (éponge, spongia) : from Greek spongos, ultimately from an unknown source
    - tunica (tunique, tunica) from
    - turris (tour, torre) : possibly from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language.

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    wow indeed the list is growing

    lets see

    Cylindrus
    the Greek spelling gives
    the curves καμπυλες
    κοιλος (bound to inner circle) British Coil (tesla coils etc) Germ Hohl
    κυρτος (bound the external of circle) the curve the most IE use the convex but Slavic use vupuklyi (klyi compare κυκλος) Armenian urrut (urut->urt)
    κυκλος the circle
    κυλινδρος from κυκλος and draw? or from circle and ιδρυω (born from circle or raises circles)
    κυλω κυλαω virb I roll
    in all 5 words we find similar sounds except ρ ανδ λ wich are Λυγρα and might be a sound change of Λ to ρ for best sound,
    or one is expelled
    if someone can compare with other old languages like Sanshqrit or avestan the above 5
    that means if cylinder is non IE Greek then many words similar like coil etc are Greek loans
    Besides it is mathematic and probably the global vocabulary is after the first language publish
    compare internet as word is a global word today and not διαδικτυο cause all modern publication use it as Lingua Franca


    Honorem
    must be connected with Greek ονομα name
    in ancient world there were parades to honour someone or to shame him
    Greek use the word τιμη and ατιμωση but the result is that the person become ονομαστος famous
    so Honorem probably means to make his name famous, to pass his name to immortality


    largus hmm we find in Greek a word πελωριος which is connected with Slavic Veliki-veliko
    it means Huge, very big in size, although the miss of Πε and Ve makes me wonder,
    difficult to taxonomy


    Mettalum and Μετταλο well if comes from μετταλο then we have an extract
    mettalon is not mettal as we know today
    mettalon means extract of a smith
    after μαλθωσις melt
    you to need to plague the extract virb Τελω-τελαω-τηλω modern ταλανιζομαι compare noun ταλας and coin = talant
    ταλας and talant means striked by hammer
    so mettalon is Μετα+ταλας = Μετταλο (after prossesing)
    it means the result of hammer work
    a connection with melt (μαλθωσις) is also possible as a result of melting, meta+malt

    miser is connected with Death and hate compare Greek Μισητος and μαρασμος
    the one whos fate is death or the one is hated by all to much so to want or consider him dead,
    compare south slavic mrzi mrazev etc
    and Μοιραι ( 3 Fates)
    it seems to me that is a word that changed through time from μοιρα to miseria
    compare κακκη μοιρα (bad fate bad luck) goes miseria
    the connection with south south slavic gives another view


    Sphere hmm when a ball is stable is Σφαιρα but when it turns Σβουριζει so p->V
    lets compare with other IE
    Armenian verev South Slavic Vrh a greek loan to them? or Greek loaned the word?

    totus a connection with teuta? the sum of people = nation


    now about Greek words

    auto has 2 meanings
    a) Ουτοs ουτο means he compare albanian thot english this that etc clearly IE
    b) εαυτος from ενιαυτος means i my self or he himself εν+ουτος in this (I show my self) so it is clear IE


    mythos is a word that comes from 2
    and is not mythos but ομου + εφη
    ομου means all together εφη means speak- say so ομου+εφη = mythos = all say that


    electron ηλεκτρον
    when Thales describe electron he did not tell about electronic and neutron and cables etc
    he said about a force that ελκει pulls things
    so that ρητινη (amber) is named electron cause it pulls
    compare the words ulcerate duktILen armenia galusty Baltic Culat

    so electron which is a thing is after a clear IE root
    Besides at Turkish amber is kehribar what that means amber is a turkish word? or Turks are IE?


    Xanthos ξανθος hmmm good point to that
    by aeoilian and Makedonian we find many times that X is k+s or s+k
    Northen Greeks and many times Dorians used sk instead of X
    so if we use the X as sk in the name of XUTHUS we find what?
    SKuthus or Scythos or Scythian
    Scythians were Blond
    so Xanthos means Scythian Blond
    Blond and Blue eyes were rare in Greece, exept the area of upper thessaly and makedonia and east Epirus (R1a area)

    no to expell a word from IE family we must also compare it with AVESTAN ARYAN SANSHQRIT etc

    GERMANIC AND BALTOSLAVIC IS NOT THE ONLY IE AND NEITHER THE ORIGINAL IE
    AND MAYBE ARE NOT THAT OLD

    there is a souther corridor of IE from italy Greece to India that passes from Aryan Armenia Iran Afganistan
    (Alexanders road)

    in that corridor exist Italian-Latin Greek Antolian Armenian Avestan and Iranic Aryan ..... Sanshqrit
    to consider 1 word as clear IE must be in all IE languages
    but to expel 1 word must not in all the above,
    Meaning that if a word does not exist in germanic or Balto-slavic does mean it is not IE cause it might exist also in sanshqrit or tocharian or whatever

    if exist in 2 languages that are away (not Germanic -balto-slavic or Greco-Latin) but from different cultures then surely is IE
    1 word that exist in Germanic and avestan migh be IE but a word that exist in Germanic and balto-slavic which are near and does not exist in other away cultures like armenia sanshqrit might not be IE

    IE does not mean European neither blond with blue eyes
    neither a culture from North to South
    in fact amber might not be IE word at all but Turkish (kehribar colour of kehri) Panicum miliaceum color

    IE is language that is connected with middle East and caucas and spread
    if it spread by 1 or 2 or 4 HG I do not know, but surely nations that spread IE had primary HG



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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    More words (mostly vocabulary relating to the Mediterranean climate) :

    - angelus (ange, angelo) : perhaps from Semitic or another non-IE Middle-Eastern language
    - cicada (cigale, cicala) : not a native Latin word; perhaps a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
    - cucumerem (concombre, -) : perhaps from a pre-Italic Mediterranean language
    - cupressus (cyprès, cipresso) : from Greek kyparissos, probably from an unknown pre-Greek Mediterranean language.
    - dactylus (datte, dattero) : from Gk. daktylos ("finger, toe), from a Semitic source (Hebrew deqel, Aramaic diqla, Arabic daqal "date palm")
    - digitus (doigt, detto) : same as above, differ from the PIE word for finger *polikos
    - ficus (figue, fico) : from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language, possibly Semitic
    - laurus (laurier, alloro) : probably from a pre-IE Mediterranean language
    - mentha (menthe, menta) : from Greek minthe probably a loan-word from a lost Mediterranean language.
    - lion : perhaps from Semitic
    - mulus (mule, mulo) : probably from a pre-Latin Mediterranean language.
    - norma (norme, norma)
    - pira (poire, pera)
    - plumbum (plomb, piombo) : probably borrowed from a lost Mediterranean language, perhaps Iberian.
    - racemus (raisin, -) : probably from the same ancient lost Mediterranean language
    - saccus (sac, sacco) : from Greek sakkos, from Semitic (Hebrew saq "sack")
    - spongia (éponge, spongia) : from Greek spongos, ultimately from an unknown source
    - tunica (tunique, tunica) from
    - turris (tour, torre) : possibly from a pre-I.E. Mediterranean language.




    angelo from Greek Αγγελος virb αγγελω is not a holy Christian creature with white colors,
    Aγγελος means messenger and is clear IE and not semitic
    2 ancient Homeric words combiner to make 1
    αγω + λογος meaning I Bring the law
    αγω and ηκω and ακουω meaning Ι guide i drive I rule I go(compare aga-memnon achamainides King?) I arrive I reach I come ανδ Ι Hear
    λογος in Greek is speech but also Logic logical in English is Law
    so in translation means Go the Law or Listen the law or law Bringer (messenger)

    Ω Ξειν Αγγελειν Λακεδαιμονιοις
    means go and tell Spartan
    not wear feathers white clothes and baptise Spartans

    ηξεις αφιξεις ου εν το πολεμω θνησκεις
    you will go (αγω ηκω) you will comeback not in the war you will die
    famous Delphic oracle spell

    Dactylus
    interesting case but by watching Greek language we also find words like κονδυλος σπονδυλος (vertebra)
    all have to do with human anatomy
    example σπονδυλος are the small bones which connected to create the spine
    also εσω κονδυλος ... lateral condyle
    why δαχτυλος dakdyle is not connected also with the above
    comparing stylus that creates stele στυλος στηλη
    not sure and not conviced
    considering that fingers are used to show to point
    then from ide ιδε ιδου (look) and virb δεικνυω (I show , I point at) we get the point bone system
    then means ιδε+δυλος or δεικ+τυλος = δακτυλος
    compare Germanic das english this
    the finger that points is the δεικτης the digital



    cupressus Clear IE
    Greek κυπαρισσος means Green κυπρ = green compare the copper rust Κυπρος the plant κυπηρις
    modern is πρασινο from κυπρασιο
    except if Green is not IE but mediterrenean also

    lion interesting
    Greek Λεων Kings share is Λεια compare english Loot Latvian Laupit Armenian talan etc we find the theme Le
    Greek βασιλεας means the Big loot share, or the one who drive us to loot, or central lion
    Βασις + λεων
    when a male lion eats no body goes near
    compare the Homeric σκυλα (the amount of loot)
    λεων the Lion but also the looter
    possesive case λεοντος (leot ->loot) clear IE


    saccuss !!!! hmm I can find it In russian and south slavic to have you searched the sanshqrit and avestan and tocharian also
    since exist in more than 3 languages from 3 diferent kind,
    or a loan from Greek to roman and to russian ( and south slavic) also


    spongia σφογγος
    also interesting
    since IE were not naval or sea culture you might be right σφογγος is a sea animal
    but I am not sure have you compare it virb σφιγγω and english knot?
    can you tell me the IE word?


    finally turris
    well many linguists are stuck to that word as Tursis greek τυρις -τυρινθος english tower
    although it explains very well the name of Etruscans (en tursis) and the name Troy
    the above is wrong if we compine with Hattian then Etruscans comes from Hat-rus compare Hat-ria Attika etc
    so it is a problematic word since there is a virb τερω τηρω θωρω (Ι have a view) to watch and stand by, to observe to secure with eye view in Greek compare virb παρα-τηρω and watch tower παρα-τηρη-τηριο
    Pontic greek τερον = look english track poland tor etc
    I can not search avestan and sanshqrit and tocharian
    simply it is difficult to find if it etruscan or IE


    now maciamo since you know the IE can you tell me how is in IE the bellow?


    - cicada (cigale, cicala)
    - cucumerem (concombre, -)
    - cupressus (cyprès, cipresso)
    - ficus (figue, fico) :
    - laurus (laurier, alloro)
    - mentha (menthe, menta)
    - mulus (mule, mulo)
    - norma (norme, norma)
    - pira (poire, pera)
    - plumbum (plomb, piombo)
    - racemus (raisin, -)
    - spongia (éponge, spongia)
    - tunica (tunique, tunica)
    - turris (tour, torre)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    - amygdala/amandula (amande, mandorla), from Greek amygdalos but not found in other IE languages
    Agreed, this definitely is from a Pre-Greek ("Pelasgian") substrate
    - autumnus (automne, autunno), of unknown origin, possibly from Etruscan.
    Also agreed, but it would be useful to note that it was originally only a divinity name, and the Romans borrowed many other deities from the Etruscans' pantheon.
    - bestia (bête, bestia)
    Possibly related to Latin belua (beast) and fera (wild animal), which come from PIE *ghueros (see Greek ther (wild animal), Tocharian B serwe (hunter), Lithuanian zveris (wild beast), etc.)
    - coda (queue, coda), unrelated to the PIE *puk(eha) or *wolos
    Coda is a variant of cauda, which may be related to caudex (tree trunk), which possibly comes from cudere(to strike, to knock), in the sense of striking the tree. Cudere in turn comes from PIE *kehau (see Proto-Germanic *hawwanan (to chop, to forge), Lithuanian kauja (strike, forge), Tocharian B kau- (kill, strike, destroy), etc.)
    - elementem (element, elemento)
    Elementum may come from alo (I nourish), which comes from PIE *haele (grow, see PG *alanan (to grow), Olr Irish ailid (nourishes), etc.)
    - cylindrus (cylindre, cilindro) only related to Greek kylindros
    Kylindros may come from Greek kylindo (roll), which could come from kyklos (circle, wheel), which comes from PIE *kwekwlom (wheel, see PG *hwehwlan (wheel), Avestan caxra- (wheel), Tocharian B kokale (wagon), etc.)
    - famulus : Latin word for servant from which "family" is derived. Unrelated to the PIE roots *genhes or *wik
    Comes from Oscan famel (dweller of the house, i.e. slave), from PIE *domos (house(hold), see Latin domus (house), Lithuanian namas, Old Church Slavonic domu, etc.)
    - farcire (farcire, farcire)
    Probably from PIE *bhrakie (squeeze together, make firm, see Middle Irish barc (storm, fury), Latin fartus (thick), Tocharian B *prakre (firm), etc.)
    - finis (fin, fine), unrelated to the PIE root *termn-
    Related to Old Latin fivo (i fix, fasten), which comes from PIE *dheigw (fix, set up, see PG *dikaz (dam), Lithuanian diegiu (rpick, plant, sow),Latvian diegt, etc.)
    - honorem (honeur, onore), not found in other IE languages
    From honor, a rhotacized variant of honos (honour), from onus (burden), from PIE *honhes (burden, see Old Indic ana (goods wagon))
    - largus (large, largo), unrelated to the PIE *megha or *mehro

    - male/malus (mal, male), not related to PIE *ghalh(x)ros nor *hedwol

    - metallum (métal, metallo), from Greek metallon, but differs from PIE word *h(a)eyes

    - miser (misère, misera), no similarity with other IE languages

    - (s)mittere : Latin word meaning "to send" used as a root for many words (transmit, emit, permit, etc.). No IE cognate.

    - nigrum (noir, nero), unrelated to the PIE *k(w)rsnos, *mel-n or *keir

    - oceanus (ocean, oceano), from Greek oceanos, but no cognates in other IE
    Perhaps from Greek okys (swift), which comes from PIE *hekus (fast, see Old Welsh di-auc (not-fast), Latin ocior (faster), Avestan asu-, etc)
    - ochra (ocre, ocra), from Greek ochra, but no cognates in other IE

    - phrasis (phrase, frase), from Greek phrasis (speech, way of speaking), but doesn't cognate with any IE word

    - populus (peuple, popolo), no cognate in other IE languages. Possibly from Etruscan.

    - purpura (pourpre, purpureo), from Greek porphyra which is of Semitic origin

    - radius (rayon, raggio/radio)

    - sanguis (sang, sangue), unrelated to the PIE *bhlo-to

    - silens (silence, silenzio), doesn't appear to be IE

    - sphæra (sphère, sfera) from Greek sphaira (globe, ball), of unknown origin.

    - totus/totalis (total, totale), no IE cognate

    - verdis (vert, verde), unrelated to the PIE *ker-, *kr-wos or *modheros, or to the PIE base *ghre- ("grow", from which the Germanic green derives)

    - volare (voler, volare), unrelated to the PIE *dih- or *pet-


    Greek words

    - auto- : prefix meaning "self", doesn't cognate in other IE languages

    - mythos : "speech, thought, story, myth," of unknown origin.

    - elektron : Greek word for amber, no cognate in IE

    - xanthos : Greek word for yellow, no cognate in IE

    - The Greek for "thousand" (kilo or khilias) as well as the Latin one (mille) are unrelated to the PIE root *tuh(a)s-kmtyos found in all Germanic and Balto-Slavic languages.
    Here are some annotations, I will expand them later.
    Last edited by Asturrulumbo; 10-12-11 at 02:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here are more non-IE Latin words, which are said to come from Etruscan:

    - arista (arête, arête)
    - atrium
    - balteus (borrowed into Germanic and gave English the word belt)
    - cærimonia (cérémonie, ceremonia)
    - fenestra (fenêtre, finestra)
    - harena (arène, arena) : originally meaning "sandy place"
    - mercatus (marché, mercato) : from merx (wares, merchandise)
    - militaris (militaire, militario) : from miles (soldier)
    - palatum (palais, palato)
    - servire (servir, servire) : from servus (serf, slave)
    - vernaculus (vernaculaire, vernacolo) from verna "home-born slave, native".
    - vulcanus (volcan, volcano)


    ceremonia

    well indeed that is strange word
    comparing to Greek we find Cerres and monia
    compare ηγε-μονια εμ-μονη (εμ-μονια)
    Not sure but it may means Cerres the godess The Greek Demeter
    something like the elefsinian mysteries, a sacred fair or process to honor godess Cerres
    In North greece we also found a godess Sirris and also somewhere in Mesopotamia
    Cerres could be Etruscan Godess and in its Pelasgian form could be Sirris



    Arena

    well there is also an explanation dedicated to Ares (Mars)
    comparing Greek πεδιον του Αρεως (Mars field)
    if it was Arrena then in Greek means mans only αρρεν = man


    Arista
    Hmm lets see
    in English we see good Better Best
    in Greek kalos kalyteros Aristos or Kallistos
    meaning aristos means best or something simmilar
    compare with Greek aris (sarissa) must be drill so no connection then?
    lets split the word to find themes, ar +istos
    hmm Ar+esetai so after a split we find the them ar and word could be Ar+esti
    comparing virb αρεσω αρεσκομαι and noun αρεστος (desirable)
    so we also find root ir in desir
    that root ar can be found as best or desirable or unique or Gold in most if not all IE languages

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    I would say, one of the best candidates for a Pre-Greek word is the Greek word "thalassa" (sea), which quite contrasts the word for "sea" found in most other European IE branches: Celtic (Welsh "môr"), Germanic (German "Meer"), Italic (Latin "mare") and Slavic (Russian "more").

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I would say, one of the best candidates for a Pre-Greek word is the Greek word "thalassa" (sea), which quite contrasts the word for "sea" found in most other European IE branches: Celtic (Welsh "môr"), Germanic (German "Meer"), Italic (Latin "mare") and Slavic (Russian "more").
    θαλασσα is not one word but 2 is Doric Form
    In Ionic is θαλαττα

    Comparing Homeric and Hesiodic the word is Als
    Αλς Nom
    Αλος possesive
    Αλωι dative
    Αλαττα acussative

    Meaning the word theme and root is αλαττ and is Female η αλς (compare sea)

    Now lets see the nEutral to αλς (compare salt)
    to αλς Nom
    του αλατος posse
    τωι Αλατηι dative
    το αλας accus

    as you sea both have save form als and alat but different Gender
    the θ (th) infront is added later at 4-5 th century BC
    Xenophon return of 10 000 (καθοδος μυριων)

    so Thalatta means salty

    why Θ (τη) and not another latter sound ?

    in ancient Greek the hills of sand at seashores are named Θινες Thines (Dunen DUnen Kapas) watch similarity
    so compare other words like paralia akrogyalia (παραλια ακρογυαλια)
    lets see παρ-αλια (near sea) ακρογυαλια (edge of sea)
    same it goes θιν+αλαττα = sandy hills shore (compare Homeric παρα θιν' αλος)

    σο Thalatta is a mix word from Dunes and sea meaning sandy Hills shore at original form which by time means sea

    It is Clear IE as you see

    while dunes and kapras have a difference at least in form

    now about sand Greek word from far ancient is σαμιτης (samites) compare islands Samothrake Samos Sami etc
    later loses s and becomes Αμμος (ammos)
    so sand and ammos have same root althought it is not visual

    although a same word ωκεανος Oceanus is not IE but Pelasgian
    the word is connected with Latin Aqua Egyptian aswan Turkish su etc

    Another word also exist but drop in small usage was Ποντος Pontus
    compare pοdles Tumbel? prud? etc

    other words that connect also with salt are
    salami and allanto
    salami means εις αλμη in Greek σαλαμουρα is extra salty water to pasterize (conserve) meat (salt water method)
    allanto and αλλαντικο is meat or fish that is conserved by salt (dry salt, no water or boil method)
    Last edited by Yetos; 13-12-11 at 20:04.

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    Thanks for clarifying this, Yetos.

    I think this makes a good point that we should not confuse neologisms with pre-IE words.
    Last edited by Taranis; 20-12-11 at 13:51.

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    I decided to write a bit on the most fundamental differences between Mycenean Greek and Classical (and Modern) Greek:

    presence of the PIE sounds *kw and *gw, which became *p and *b in Classical Greek.
    Myc. *gwous > "bous" (ox)
    Myc. *(h)ikwo > "hippos" (horse)

    - presence of the sound *w, which was largely lost in Classical Greek and existed only vestigially in some dialects.
    Myc. *woinos > "oinos" (wine)

    Mycenean Greek was written with a syllabary writing system called Linear B, which in itself is derived from the Linear A writing system that was used to write the (undeciphered) Minoan language. This writing system could only improperly represent the Greek language. There is an approximately 400 year period during which the Greeks were an illiterate people between the extinction of the Linear B script and the adoption of the alphabet by the Greeks from the Phoenicians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    I decided to write a bit on the most fundamental differences between Mycenean Greek and Classical (and Modern) Greek:

    presence of the PIE sounds *kw and *gw, which became *p and *b in Classical Greek.
    Myc. *gwous > "bous" (ox)
    Myc. *(h)ikwo > "hippos" (horse)

    - presence of the sound *w, which was largely lost in Classical Greek and existed only vestigially in some dialects.
    Myc. *woinos > "oinos" (wine)

    Mycenean Greek was written with a syllabary writing system called Linear B, which in itself is derived from the Linear A writing system that was used to write the (undeciphered) Minoan language. This writing system could only improperly represent the Greek language. There is an approximately 400 year period during which the Greeks were an illiterate people between the extinction of the Linear B script and the adoption of the alphabet by the Greeks from the Phoenicians.
    my arque is the time which for me 400 is too long
    it is about 270 years as relics,
    and considering of lost evidences or not found yet might be less

    and you know my point that Greek-Pelasgian alphabet and phoenician might be both from another older culture,

    now the letters Greeks,
    You know that greeks rejected letters, one of them was the διγαμμα F, a double Γ+Γ
    so the one in West is F (ph) in Greek might Be sounded W
    the sound of (*w) you mention is the sound of Γ mostly since Latin C can not express the Γ sound
    Letter Γ sounds like W in words like were was why etc
    but lets look at english the sounds
    why and who if you write them down in Greek Alphabet is Γουαϊ and Χου
    so the same letters wh change sound, that is something not accepted in Greek for non Vowels
    since you know Kyme alphabet then you know that C was formed as Γ as lettering symbol.
    But C in West never sounds like Γ but as ts (slavic -ic at names), K (coccoa) S (cinema)
    by looking at English and German vocabulary we see the words coffee and Kaffee
    so which is the sound of C ? in IE languages

    the γαμμα and Διγαμμα case you mention is mostly a symbolic

    another interesting case the German W which sounds like V in words like Wasser (it sounds like Βασσα) warum (βαρουμ)

    in fact the case of Watter and Wasser reminds me the case of Θαλαττα - Θαλασσα - Αλαττα etc
    as you even in Germanic languages we have change of tt->ss and not only in Greek
    we might also have the P and Q Germanic since w is Γ in English (Q sound) and B in Deutsch (P sound)

    ΤΗΕ CASE OF P and Q does not exist only in Celtic
    but also in Greek and Germanic languages as lesser phenomenon

    let me remind you that Π Β Φ (P V F) belong to same family χειλικα (lips sounds)

    on the other hand you are right,
    Modern Greek is far from Mycenean
    but lets see we have a known language for 3500 years one of the oldest,
    meanwhile we have Celtics invasion Thracian connections Roman occupation Christian slaughters Slavic movements venice warragians catalans and Ottoman occupation,
    even what left from it it is a miracle,
    since you know or try to assume PIE then you are able to know how a anguage change though times and wars and occupations,

    Although I admit that Mycenean are considered as a special case of pre- or proto-Greek
    But I don't believe that was another language maybe something like dialect which after 270 change to what we call Archaic,
    Besides the case of Equus is after how we assume that Linear B symbols were explained,

    as you see all IE languages have the tense to transform,
    Even with Schools we are unable to stop this,

    that was known at Aleandreian philosophers which determined sounds and aspirations, so a non Greek to understand and read,
    as you know a good example is letter Ιι which before was γιωτα And after is ιωτα [(γ)ι , ι]

    although Alaxandreians create a clear status of writing and reading sounds, that eliminated lower sounds and created new forms, (transformation of language)
    IN fact that is the problem of modern Greek language,
    to give an example is the υ and ου
    ou is a strong fat and long time U (Uranus)
    u was a short ου mixed with ι a kind of aspiration or almost sounded
    υ In modern is just a sound similar to ι

    that Help Greeks to learn read fast since υ has always same sound,
    comparing for example english us (u=α) uranus (u=ου)
    same letter has 2 sounds,
    But changed sounds and eliminated smaller non heard which exist in isolated areas even today,

    a good example is the mountain λι and the Athenean λι and makedonian λι
    isolated areas in mountains keep pronouncing λι ας i keeps the γ (the sound is ι but the tongue is in place of Γ ) the sound is some like L(w)I
    while Athenean losses the (w)
    and in few years no one will ever speak the mountain formation, since teachers follow the Athenean sound system,
    the makedonian li and letter l is different than rest of all greek it is fat as λλ and long time sound,
    it follows the ancient palming tonque L like palming tongue R
    it sounds as a vowel sometimes,

    the case of oinos woinos

    lets see slavic words Vino so w->V
    Italian Vino w->V
    Germanic wein sounds like V
    English wine w->Γ
    Armenia gini w->G

    as you see the P-Q
    or in Greek Γ-Β split exist in all languages,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    my arque is the time which for me 400 is too long
    it is about 270 years as relics,
    and considering of lost evidences or not found yet might be less

    and you know my point that Greek-Pelasgian alphabet and phoenician might be both from another older culture,

    now the letters Greeks,
    You know that greeks rejected letters, one of them was the διγαμμα F, a double Γ+Γ
    so the one in West is F (ph) in Greek might Be sounded W
    the sound of (*w) you mention is the sound of Γ mostly since Latin C can not express the Γ sound
    Letter Γ sounds like W in words like were was why etc
    but lets look at english the sounds
    why and who if you write them down in Greek Alphabet is Γουαϊ and Χου
    so the same letters wh change sound, that is something not accepted in Greek for non Vowels
    since you know Kyme alphabet then you know that C was formed as Γ as lettering symbol.
    But C in West never sounds like Γ but as ts (slavic -ic at names), K (coccoa) S (cinema)
    by looking at English and German vocabulary we see the words coffee and Kaffee
    so which is the sound of C ? in IE languages

    the γαμμα and Διγαμμα case you mention is mostly a symbolic

    another interesting case the German W which sounds like V in words like Wasser (it sounds like Βασσα) warum (βαρουμ)

    in fact the case of Watter and Wasser reminds me the case of Θαλαττα - Θαλασσα - Αλαττα etc
    as you even in Germanic languages we have change of tt->ss and not only in Greek
    we might also have the P and Q Germanic since w is Γ in English (Q sound) and B in Deutsch (P sound)

    ΤΗΕ CASE OF P and Q does not exist only in Celtic
    but also in Greek and Germanic languages as lesser phenomenon

    let me remind you that Π Β Φ (P V F) belong to same family χειλικα (lips sounds)

    on the other hand you are right,
    Modern Greek is far from Mycenean
    but lets see we have a known language for 3500 years one of the oldest,
    meanwhile we have Celtics invasion Thracian connections Roman occupation Christian slaughters Slavic movements venice warragians catalans and Ottoman occupation,
    even what left from it it is a miracle,
    since you know or try to assume PIE then you are able to know how a anguage change though times and wars and occupations,

    Although I admit that Mycenean are considered as a special case of pre- or proto-Greek
    But I don't believe that was another language maybe something like dialect which after 270 change to what we call Archaic,
    Besides the case of Equus is after how we assume that Linear B symbols were explained,

    as you see all IE languages have the tense to transform,
    Even with Schools we are unable to stop this,

    that was known at Aleandreian philosophers which determined sounds and aspirations, so a non Greek to understand and read,
    as you know a good example is letter Ιι which before was γιωτα And after is ιωτα [(γ)ι , ι]

    although Alaxandreians create a clear status of writing and reading sounds, that eliminated lower sounds and created new forms, (transformation of language)
    IN fact that is the problem of modern Greek language,
    to give an example is the υ and ου
    ou is a strong fat and long time U (Uranus)
    u was a short ου mixed with ι a kind of aspiration or almost sounded
    υ In modern is just a sound similar to ι

    that Help Greeks to learn read fast since υ has always same sound,
    comparing for example english us (u=α) uranus (u=ου)
    same letter has 2 sounds,
    But changed sounds and eliminated smaller non heard which exist in isolated areas even today,

    a good example is the mountain λι and the Athenean λι and makedonian λι
    isolated areas in mountains keep pronouncing λι ας i keeps the γ (the sound is ι but the tongue is in place of Γ ) the sound is some like L(w)I
    while Athenean losses the (w)
    and in few years no one will ever speak the mountain formation, since teachers follow the Athenean sound system,
    the makedonian li and letter l is different than rest of all greek it is fat as λλ and long time sound,
    it follows the ancient palming tonque L like palming tongue R
    it sounds as a vowel sometimes,

    the case of oinos woinos

    lets see slavic words Vino so w->V
    Italian Vino w->V
    Germanic wein sounds like V
    English wine w->Γ
    Armenia gini w->G

    as you see the P-Q
    or in Greek Γ-Β split exist in all languages,

    Yetos,

    I said "approximately" 400 years, and I agree the period may have been shorter. What is clear is that there was an illiterate period in Greece, and that the sound changes, seemingly, occured in this intermediate period.

    - What do you mean by "Greek-Pelasgian alphabet"? Linear A/B? Please consider that it was not an alphabet, but a syllabary.

    - the letter digamma is derived from Phoenician letter Waw (compare with Hebrew ו which has exactly the same value /w/ but different shape, compare יהוה - YHWH).

    - Q/P does not exist in Germanic. What Germanic does is that according to the first germanic sound shift, *gw > *kw (PIE *gwen- > English 'queen') and *kw > *hw (PIE *kwod > English 'what').

    - the development of water > wasser is a development that is part of the second germanic sound shift, which only affects German (and all of it's dialects, to varying degrees) and (to a much smaller degree) Dutch.

    - do not mix up different orthography and different pronounciation.

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    that is why I replied

    Orthography and Pronounciation must be same according Alexandreians,

    Although the one you call second Germanic sound shift might be split similar to Centume satem to a w->Γ and w->V
    similar to P and Q
    If Universities do not accept it since they have written down sounds that does not mean it does not exist, and how will it be different in years


    Just see and compare

    Warsow ->Varsovia
    Wein -> Vein
    wasser-> Vassa
    warum ->varum
    westfallen -> Vestfallen
    ALL W ->V
    so why it is problem if qwous goes to Vous

    om the other hand
    what
    where
    who
    watter
    wine

    All w -> Γ


    Greek always change the letter Κ Γ Χ ανδ Π Β Φ

    compare english wh in what and who

    now lets see
    latin equus Greek ikkos Slavic Kon*

    so the ikwo (PIE form as you admit)
    if w-> Γ then Ikgos -> ikkos
    if w->V then ikvos -> ivvos ->ippos

    then why we have split of Greek to P-Q according where w goes?
    and not Germanic split also to p-q or Γ-V

    why you consider that w->V and w-> Γ in German is shifted
    and not in Greek?

    the problem is that in the time you mention from Linear B to alphabet that shift was already done,
    so alphabet follows writes down the sound after the shift, and I can not guess why?
    but comparing mycenean and greek I doubt if it was another language, simply mycenean could more PIE in sounds or used another shift,
    it is like English and Deutsch shift of W
    both are considered Germanic languages, but they sound different,
    if we write them down now today then w will be different from the time that they written

    with different orthography

    if we create a new alphabet to write down then surely english and Deutsch should be diffrent, that happened to Greek the time you mention
    the shift is the same, but orthography is different

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    Yetos, you're making assumptions looking from modern Greek onto Classical Greek:

    In classical greek, Beta represented /b/. In modern Greek, it represents /v/.

    Similar sound shifts have happened with φ, θ, χ:

    - "φ" was /pʰ/ and today represents /f/

    - "θ" was /tʰ/ and today represents /θ/ (as in English "thin")

    - "χ" was /kʰ/ and today represents /x/ (as in Scottish "loch")

    Also, *ikwo- is not the PIE form, it is the reconstructed Mycenean form. The PIE word for horse is *ek´wos, with a palatovelar *k´ sound, which became merged with *k in Proto-Greek as it did in the other Centum languages.

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    well the Greek sounds are stable from Hellenistic2, meaning about 2000 years,

    Greek φ was always φ and not ph
    the sound ph was expresses by last number the sanpi π (pi and sanpi)
    also θ and χ
    the difference among latin -western and Greek is that letters are stable in Greek to a certain sound,

    compare loch and charm

    about B V Greek Β was always V and never MP
    that is why we find Connection among Freek and Latin in ancient words with V
    Greek Β is V cause the letters with leaps are V P F and not MP,
    Mp uses nose to express it

    so greeks prefer clear sounds->symbols


    that is the point, we disagree

    many times I blame Christians for their genocide against Greeks,
    but many times I know that Christians saved Greek language,

    The sounds of Greek language are saved through testimonies and ritual of Christian church.
    so they are standard at least 2000 and more,
    Many linguists in Greeks believe that they are same with archaic except Vowels (ο,ω η,ι,υ αι,οι,υι, ευ,αυ)

    so the case you mention of Mycenean and archaic, is mostly true to effort of explanation of Linear B,


    I wonder are only the Greeks that have the word Ippos?
    or exist a similar word also in another IE language?

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