Basque and Berber

[spongetaro]

I found intersting similiraities between Basque and Tuareg (a Berber language) Vocabulary on a French Website:
http://asignoret.free.fr/bsktwa.html



English....Tuareg.....Basque

needlee ..istn- sten- ..EZTEN

tree ...saGar (pl.).. SAGAR (*)

to arrive ...fel.... HEL

to attach...aGi ....ATXI

beef ....esu (t-esu-t "cow") ...ZEZEN

wood.... saRir ....ZUR

to run fast .... azl ZAL

to say ...... enn ERRAN, ESAN

to sleep..... eTTes ETZAN (to lie)

sheet ......axawlil OIHAL

child .....araw (H)AUR

enemy .....henGa ETSAI

to sneeze .....usraG urtzinz

to do .....eG / ekn- EGIN

Woman ....t-ame-t (t ...t = feminine) EME

Fenec ....axôrhi AZERI (fox)

String.....ehed HEDE
gazelle ....ahenkoD AHUNTZ (goat)

drop.... eTTeb ITOITZ

seeds ....âllun ALE


to throw .....enDw ANDEatu

milk ....ax ESNE

Jaw ....amâdel MATEL-(HEZUR)

master..... mess messaw MAISU


sick ..... iran -urn- ERI


name ......isem IZEN

smell ..... ûxem USAIN USNA

shadow ..... têle ITZAL

nail...... êsker AZAZKAL

Gold ......ûreR URRE

to milk ......eZZeG JEIXI JAITZI

to chose .....ebres BEREXI

to find..... eGraw AURKItu

valley.... eRahar HARAN

calf .....ahRu ARATXE

[Taranis]

I'm not sure all of the words in the list really are cognates, but I am absolutely confident some of them are. One particular word in the list is Basque word for gold, 'urre', which is pretty impossible to have derived from the Indo-European word for 'gold' (Latin "aurum", Gaulish "auron").

What is a bit of a problem, is that the list you posted includes modern words. It would be intersting to see what the table looks like when comparing Proto-Basque and Proto-Berber forms of the words in question.

As for the historic context, I mentioned before, the Beaker-Bell Culture for instance extended into North Africa. It would be very surprising if we find no common words at all.

[Carlos]

There are too many similarities to the case of pure causality.

[Taranis]

I have checked the Basque side of these words (not the Berber side, however), and the bolded words in the list can be eliminated. Also, note that I gave the Proto-Basque form where I could find it:

needlee ..istn- sten- ..EZTEN
The Basque word for needle is "orratz"


tree ...saGar (pl.).. SAGAR (*)
Basque "sagar" actually means "apple"


to arrive ...fel.... HEL
Basque "(h)el-"


to attach...aGi ....ATXI
Basque "atxiki" (to add, to stick)


beef ....esu (t-esu-t "cow") ...ZEZEN
Basque "zezen" means 'bull'


wood.... saRir ....ZUR
Basque "zur"


to run fast .... azl ZAL
(no such word in Basque, but compare Basque "zaldi", 'horse')


to say ...... enn ERRAN, ESAN
Basque "esan", "erran" probably from earlier "esran"


to sleep..... eTTes ETZAN (to lie)
Basque "etzan"


sheet ......axawlil OIHAL
Basque "oihal" (cloth)


child .....araw (H)AUR
Basque "(h)aur"


enemy .....henGa ETSAI
Basque "etsai"


to sneeze .....usraG urtzinz
Basque "usin"


to do .....eG / ekn- EGIN
Basque "-gin-" (to do, make)


Woman ....t-ame-t (t ...t = feminine) EME
Basque "eme" is a loanword from Romance (compare Latin "femina")


Fenec ....axôrhi AZERI (fox)
Basque "azeri" is a loanword from the Latin "acer"(cunning, sharp)


String.....ehed HEDE
Basque "hede"


gazelle ....ahenkoD AHUNTZ (goat)
Basque "ahuntz"


drop.... eTTeb ITOITZ
Basque "itoi"


seeds ....âllun ALE
Basque "ale"


to throw .....enDw ANDEatu
the Basque word for 'to throw' is "-gotz-"


milk ....ax ESNE
Basque "esne"


Jaw ....amâdel MATEL-(HEZUR)
Basque "matel" (or "mazela") is a Latin loanword ("maxilla")


master..... mess messaw MAISU
Basque "maisu" means "teacher"


sick ..... iran -urn- ERI
Basque "eri"


name ......isem IZEN
Basuqe "izen"


smell ..... ûxem USAIN USNA
Basque "usain", from an earlier *usani


shadow ..... têle ITZAL
Basque "itzal"


nail...... êsker AZAZKAL
Basque "atzazal" means "finger nail", and it's a compound of "atz-" (finger) + "azal" (skin, bark).


Gold ......ûreR URRE
Basque "urre"


to milk ......eZZeG JEIXI JAITZI
Basque "jaitzi"


to chose .....ebres BEREXI
not a Basque word ("berezi" means 'special')


to find..... eGraw AURKItu
Basque "aurkitu"


valley.... eRahar HARAN
Basque "(h)aran"


calf .....ahRu ARATXE
The Basque word for 'calf' is actually "txahal", which requires an earlier *zanal or *sanal.

[Carlos]

There are archaeological finds of both Iberian Celts as, but not the Basques.

The language Euskera were once wrote this? ამ ენაზე დაიწერა ისე

[Kardu]

Carlos, I don't get what you wanna say using Georgian alphabet in reference to Basque :)

[Taranis]

There are archaeological finds of both Iberian Celts as, but not the Basques.

Sorry, but what you say makes absolutely no sense.

There are archaeological findings in the Basque country going back as far as the Mesolithic. Wether and how much these have to do with the Basques is another story, but it's clear that the Basques lived near their present position in Antiquity.

The language Euskera were once wrote this? ამ ენაზე დაიწერა ისე

You seem to be mixing up two hypotheses here:

1) It was thought in the past, based on the Greek names for these peoples, between the Iberians of Hispania, and the Iberians of the Caucasus. Note however that this is an exonym. To claim that there's a connection is a bit like saying New Guinea was colonized by people from Guinea.

2) It has been suggested a suggestion between Basque and Georgian (Kartvelian) languages, but this has been disproven. Some people maintain a connection between Basque and one of the other Caucasian families (Northwest or Northeast, respectively).

Regarding the Georgian script, it has been used from the 5th century AD onwards, and it was never used outside the Caucasus. The first written Basque/Aquitanian words and terms may come from as early as the 1st century BC (when the Romans took control over the area), and the only writing system ever used for writing Basque was Latin.

[Kardu]

Regarding the Georgian script, it has been used from the 5th century AD onwards, and it was never used outside the Caucasus.

Off-topic but I'd like to clarify that the recent archaeological excavation in Eastern Georgia discovered amphorae and other pottery with Georgian inscriptions dated 1st century AD. The alphabet itself is thought to be created in 4th c. BC.

[Taranis]

Off-topic but I'd like to clarify that the recent archaeological excavation in Eastern Georgia discovered amphorae and other pottery with Georgian inscriptions dated 1st century AD. The alphabet itself is thought to be created in 4th c. BC.

Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't quite sure myself, but it makes sense if the script itself is older.

[Kardu]

Thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't quite sure myself, but it makes sense if the script itself is older.

It seems the old Georgian alphabet had a very narrow use for the sacral pagan texts, inscriptions and calendar. So after conversion of Georgia to Christianity in early 4th century AD, over-zealot new Christians destroyed as much as they could of the remnants of pagan past. (e.g. Those amphorae with inscriptions were found while digging remains of a Zoroastrian temple).

As for more to the thread topic, despite I don't believe in a large scale similarity or relation between Basque and Caucasian languages, there are many curious coincidences in words and language structure. This might be accidental but one might speculate that some G2a brought their Caucasian/Anatolian language with them to Iberia which left a trace in modern Basque.

[Taranis]

It seems the old Georgian alphabet had a very narrow use for the sacral pagan texts, inscriptions and calendar. So after conversion of Georgia to Christianity in early 4th century AD, over-zealot new Christians destroyed as much as they could of the remnants of pagan past. (e.g. Those amphorae with inscriptions were found while digging remains of a Zoroastrian temple).

That explains the situation even better, especially how the script seems to "come out of nowhere" if earlier texts were at large scale destroyed. Also, I didn't know that the Georgians were Zoroastrians before converting to Christianity. You learn something new every day. :)

As for more to the thread topic, despite I don't believe in a large scale similarity or relation between Basque and Caucasian languages, there are many curious coincidences in words and language structure. This might be accidental but one might speculate that some G2a brought their Caucasian/Anatolian language with them to Iberia which left a trace in modern Basque.

Yes absolutely, those similarities definitely exist. Both are agglutinative-ergative languages. The problem is proving a relationship. It's virtually impossible if you go from the modern languages.

[Carlos]

Taranis
Lo sentimos, pero lo que usted dice no tiene ningún sentido. Hay hallazgos arqueológicos en el País Vasco que se remonta hasta el Mesolítico. El tiempo y la cantidad de estos tienen que ver con los vascos es otra historia, pero está claro que los vascos vivían cerca de su posición actual en la Antigüedad

Archeological remains of other groups, but there remains Basques themselves, and that's strange. What if it were a Berber language derived from the Punic wars? is not the first time you speak a language native or derivative imports.

[Kardu]

Yes, there were many local/Sumerian inspired cults in Georgia before Christianity and after intensive contact with Indo-Aryan peoples Zoroastrism and Mithraism also got a strong foothold there. Mithra was particularly popular among warlike Georgians and, amazingly, till today on the 25th of December, Mithra's birthday, people sacrifice pigs and boars (Mithra's sacral animal) in some parts of Eastern Georgia (again very close to the area where that ancient temple was found :)), although they do it out of tradition without any knowledge of the real roots :)

7000 years have passed and Iberian peninsula and the Caucasus had their own ways of development and change, getting influenced by numerous other folks. Indeed, discovering the degree of relationship between those languages would be practically impossible..

[Knovas]

It's possible Basque and Berber could share the same seed, but to find a clear match is not an easy task. Quite of this words for example don't look enough similar to me, so I personally think that if there is a link it must be incredibly ancient.

And surely there are similarities with other languages, but again, it must be due to similar reasons.

[Taranis]

Archeological remains of other groups, but there remains Basques themselves, and that's strange. What if it were a Berber language derived from the Punic wars? is not the first time you speak a language native or derivative imports.

What? No, that is impossible! Even if Basque shares some words with the Berber languages (which seems to be the case), it is completely unrelated with the Berber languages. The Berber languages are part of the Afroasiatic language family, which also incldes the Egyptian language (both ancient, and it's modern descendant, Coptic) and the Semitic languages (Akkadian, Aramaic, Arabic, Hebrew, Phoenician, etc.).

Basque is absolutely unrelated with the Afroasiatic languages, it must have a different origin.

It is also pretty clear that the Basques must have been living at / near their present location for considerable time because the Basque language includes vocabulary not found elsewhere for terms like agriculture, domesticated animals and metal-working.

[Knovas]

Very good points Taranis, I have a better understanding now. ¿What's the most likely origin for you? ¿Native to Europe since the Neolithic or even the Mesolithic?

[Carlos]

Taranis
It is also pretty clear that the Basques must have been living at / near their present location for considerable time because the Basque language includes vocabulary not found elsewhere for terms like agriculture, domesticated animals and metal-working.

^^
Are you talking about the Basques or Celts?


Celtic names and place names are presented as Basques: Beyond the institutions
Celtic ancestral Castilian, Basque also have as many Celtic words,
as the numeral "hogei" The name "Deba", "command" or "strategy" (site location), Maite (beloved), Gori
(Incandescent), erbium (Hare), Mendi (Monte), Orein (Deer), Orkatz (Corzo), etc. .. They are also very many
the names of the Celtic inhabitants of the areas that vasconizadas posing as Basque nationalists, among
they Zuazo (Suessatium), Lezama-Leguizamon (Segisamum also turmódigos city and in turn the
Segisama derivative formed with the Celtic theme sego means of achieving an objective measure of success or
and the final defeat Celtic love) and many other names and place names of the Celtic ancestors of the Castilians.

The identity of the Basque and Berber is still evident
in the sixteenth century manuscripts of the Gauls colonial archives in Aix-en-Provence
written in Amazigh.

The Romans described the vasconum as "men of various races," and hence
the Celts to the nickname they referred only to its location on the top and not a
characteristic or ethnic type uniform as described.

[Kardu]

Carlos, am I getting paranoid, or you have some hidden reasons to insist on Berber-Basque linguistic affinity? If so, please, say it out loud...

[Carlos]

Carlos, am I getting paranoid, or you have some hidden reasons to insist on Berber-Basque linguistic affinity? If so, please, say it out loud...

Did not you read the first post?, There is a high affinity, I believe that Basque is not as old, must be a Berber dialect words and then add more later Celtic and Latin vasconized, the rest is mythology promoted by the nationalism invented by Sabino Arana. I do not think there is more, a Berber dialect survives and is adopted by Celtic tribes in the area that can survive the isolation and lack of interest arising out of their lands between the great cultures that were arriving in the Iberian Peninsula during the centuries.

[Knovas]

I usually become surprised with most of the posts he write. And now, interpreting at his convenience an ambiguous Roman description which could mean just a difference in hair or eye color, since it doesn't specify nothing.

Trying to dark Basques with some non European element seems to be the reason. Too bad when genetic studies an admixture experiments show they are between the most purest Europeans...lol

PD: Oh yes, and the obsession with Nationalism. Come on...

[Kardu]

yes, I suspected something along political and personal background lines :)

Sorry, Carlos, few(even many) word similarity between 2 languages doesn't prove anything except some contact which may have been mediated.

[Carlos]

I usually become surprised with most of the posts he write. And now, interpreting at his convenience an ambiguous Roman description which could mean just a difference in hair or eye color, since it doesn't specify nothing.

Trying to dark Basques with some non European element seems to be the reason. Too bad when genetic studies an admixture experiments show they are between the most purest Europeans...lol

PD: Oh yes, and the obsession with Nationalism. Come on...

Obviously we are talking about the Basque language in ancient times and if there is no archaeological trace of Basques themselves, the annals qualify them as a heterogeneous group isolated in the mountains and down the looting practiced from time to time to destroy everything they found, later appropriated a territory that is not theirs, it would be logical that more or less subject tribes speaking that dialect supposedly had just Berber, in that case would the genetic markers in different ways than the origin of the Basque language.

[Carlos]

yes, I suspected something along political and personal background lines :)

Sorry, Carlos, few(even many) word similarity between 2 languages doesn't prove anything except some contact which may have been mediated.

In all this there is a lot of politics, in an Iberian Peninsula where they have not stopped going cultures, with a rapid movement, exchanges and others, and archaeological remains exist Basques themselves and knowing it was a heterogeneous group of looting, isolated in the mountain and several skirmishes that manages a territory and this may make to impose their dialect of bandits among more established Celtic people tell me that a lot of mythology want to keep the romantic myth inoculated into Europe by the racist Sabino Arana. Who is going to believe it can be a language that lasts from cormañones? has survived without a scratch group with bases such as the Celts, without a defined territory, sorry but I do not, should be somewhat easier than that.

And Europe is unbearable, I see the 19th century everywhere.

[Kardu]

I guess you are using some translation program. They are not perfect so your posts are often hard to understand. I suggest you put down original Spanish posts along, some people here including me speak it and it would make the communication easier.

Calling whole people 'badit' or bandit descent is not nice apart from being historically inaccurate...

[Carlos]

I guess you are using some translation program. They are not perfect so your posts are often hard to understand. I suggest you put down original Spanish posts along, some people here including me speak it and it would make the communication easier.

Calling whole people 'badit' or bandit descent is not nice apart from being historically inaccurate...

When it does not matter, blame the translator, ¿previously had no problem with the translation, now? mmm

Well change the term: group down to slaughter, destroy, steal, etc. not so concerned, we were once the most savage peoples, what people have not massacred, destroyed and others? now look at the things that happen yet, if we changed that much, but now are design massacres.

Good afternoon, now I have to go to work. In Spain we are so, we spend our lives working, I hope that Europe will force us to adopt the European time.