Basque and Berber

[Endri]

I don't want to interfere with this debate since i know nothing about the 2 languages in question but:

1) For 2 languages to be considered similar, more than e few mere common words need to exist.

2) Carlos posts to me seem a bit biased and as he claims 'nationalistic' . Idc why political problems should reflect in a language discussion. Basque region claiming independence and Spaniards discussing about it, right or wrong, should be done in another thread.

[Taranis]

^^
Are you talking about the Basques or Celts?

The Basques, obviously.

Domesticated animals:
- calf "txahal" (from earlier *zanal)
- cow "behi"
- goat "ahuntz" (from earlier *anutz)
- horse "zaldi"
- ox "idi"
- sheep "ardi"
- pig "txerri" (from earlier *zerri)

Metals and metal-working:
- blacksmith "harotz"
- forge "ola"
- iron "burdina"
- lead "beruna"
- sledgehammer "gabi"

Celtic names and place names are presented as Basques: Beyond the institutions
Celtic ancestral Castilian, Basque also have as many Celtic words,
as the numeral "hogei" The name "Deba", "command" or "strategy" (site location), Maite (beloved), Gori
(Incandescent), erbium (Hare), Mendi (Monte), Orein (Deer), Orkatz (Corzo), etc. ..

With exception of "maite", which indeed may derive from Celtic *maitu, none of these words has any similarity with Celtic words:

- The Proto-Celtic word for "twenty" would have been *wikanti, which is completely different from Basque 'hogei'.

- Basque "gorri" means "red". The main Celtic word for red is *roudo-, which has cognates in other branches of Indo-European. Besides that, there's also the roots *dergo- and *kokko-, none which bear any similarity with Basque.

- Basque "mendi" (mountain) probably derives from an earlier "bendi" (it's impossible to derive this from Latin "montem"), for which there is no Celtic cognate.

- Basque "orein" (deer) has no Celtic cognate, either (*kerwo-, compare with Latin 'cervinus').

They are also very many
the names of the Celtic inhabitants of the areas that vasconizadas posing as Basque nationalists, among
they Zuazo (Suessatium), Lezama-Leguizamon (Segisamum also turmódigos city and in turn the
Segisama derivative formed with the Celtic theme sego means of achieving an objective measure of success or
and the final defeat Celtic love) and many other names and place names of the Celtic ancestors of the Castilians.

None of these towns was located in Basque territory in Antiquity. Only the eastern part of the modern-day Basque country was Basque. The Basques in Antiquity lived more eastwards in the Central Pyrenees (up to the Val-de-Aran at the northwestern tip of Catalonia) and northwards (up to the Garonne river). How else do you explain town names recorded by the Romans like "Iliberris" ("ili + berri" = "new town") and "Iturissa" ("iturri" = spring)?

The identity of the Basque and Berber is still evident
in the sixteenth century manuscripts of the Gauls colonial archives in Aix-en-Provence
written in Amazigh.

That is complete nonsense. As I said, Basque and the Berber languages have completely different grammatical structures. Basque is an agglutinative-ergative language, and has a subject-object-verb (SOV) order. The Berber languages in contrast are fusional and highly inflected, and have a verb-subject-object (VSO) order.

The Romans described the vasconum as "men of various races," and hence
the Celts to the nickname they referred only to its location on the top and not a
characteristic or ethnic type uniform as described.

If you read ancient authors like Strabo, Pliny or Ptolemy, it is very clear that the Celts (even the Iberian Celts alone) did not constitute a uniform group, and there were considerable differences. Ancient authors distinguished the Astures, Cantabri, Gallaecians, Celtici, Carpetani, Oretani and Vaccaei from the Celtiberians 'proper' of the central Ebro area. Some of the beforementioned groups, though Indo-European, may not have been even Celtic (like the Lusitanians).

Otherwise, I would like to reiterate what others said: this is no place for nationalist polemics.

[Taranis]

Very good points Taranis, I have a better understanding now. ¿What's the most likely origin for you? ¿Native to Europe since the Neolithic or even the Mesolithic?

I would like to get back to this question, because I think it is a very good one. If you look into the table of my previous post, Basque has a large 'native' vocabulary of terms for domesticated animals. If we were to presume that Basque was indeed a Mesolithic language, we would have to assume that all of these words are borrowed from elsewhere. How likely is this?

[Carlos]

Hey, how about I'm back from work.

As I was saying, in Spain, many have these assumptions about the Basque language. Keep in mind this is a highly politicized issue, Europe is also on these issues in the foundations established in the 19th century, we must not forget that Sabino Arana traveled to Germany to ask the Basque country was a protectorate of the Nazis, he failed and went from the Olympic, but somehow he had to work so that their ideas were in Europe at the time and their reactionary ideas and ideals, then we have two points so that the Basque myth caught on:

1. Basque regional nationalism comes though the idea of ​​an ancient Basque language and completely autochthonous to keep their political views.

2. For the Europe of that time served the Basque question recurrrente argument to justify an antique or a possible European development and purity would harbor or give evidence that anything in their countries and would have been much better than the Basque, which was in Spain, but hey, close to France, northern Spain was, well, come on, is accepted as a pet.


Of the few objects that can be considered essentially Basque furniture (chests or kutxa and useful pastor), ornaments and figures indicate Maghrebi culture using the same geometric symbols, mainly Eguzkilore and wake. The lauburu, become the symbol of the Basque nation advocated by Arana does not have the millennia-old wants to attribute to him, is a modern symbol (SXVI)

The total absence of traces of Basque culture or religion in this area or in any other, is clear indication that it is not an indigenous people, let alone before the Celts, who, unlike the Basques, have left an important legacy.

They are also very many names of the Celtic inhabitants of the areas that vasconized posing as Basque nationalists, including:
Zuazo (Suessatium), Lezama-Leguizamon (Segisamum also turmódigos city of the derivative and in turn formed the subject Segisama Celtic sego means of achieving an objective measure of success or defeat and the end Celtic ama) and many other names and place names of the Celtic ancestors the Castilians.
Not exactly the story chronicles a story that is pleasing to hear Basque nationalists, but we all know as "Veritas Vos Liberavit"-but the truth sets us free-

[Taranis]

The question I have, did you even bother to read my reply, Carlos?

[LeBrok]

Nicely said Taranis. I'm just wondering about this:

- iron "burdina"

Do we have enough info about Basque sound laws to be sure that this is not cognate of EI?

burdina->brudina->rudina->rudi, ruda, rudo.

[Kardu]

"The lauburu, become the symbol of the Basque nation advocated by Arana does not have the millennia-old wants to attribute to him, is a modern symbol"
This claim is false, lauburu like other solar symbols is extremely old, even in Georgia millenia-old artifacts and building remains are covered with those...
borjgali.jpg

[Taranis]

Nicely said Taranis. I'm just wondering about this:

- iron "burdina"

Do we have enough info about Basque sound laws to be sure that this is not cognate of EI?

burdina->brudina->rudina->rudi, ruda, rudo.

You're probably drawing parallels to the Finnish word "iron" here ("rauta"), which is derived from the Balto-Slavic word for "ore", which in turn is derived from the PIE word for "red". From what I have seen, such a sound change is definitely not recorded. But then again, the word has to be older anyways (bear in mind that the reconstructed "Proto-Basque" only reflects the situation ca. 2000 years ago). One very real possibility is that the word originally had a different meaning (like "ore", or "metal"), and that it was shifted to "iron". What is pretty obvious is that the Basque word has nothing to do with the Celtic (*isarno-) or the Latin ("ferrum") word for iron.

[Carlos]

The question I have, did you even bother to read my reply, Carlos?

Sorry, I just got to work and I had not noticed, I have not eaten, I'm gonna eat and then study it, even if not realized (black humor), I am not an expert on the subject, but my subconscious is able to get through everything and something tells me that here in this topic there is a lot of lies around the corner do what I can.

PS: Please Lebrok you and Taranis are too cults for me, you will applaud continually, are moderators and is a bit ugly, at least to me it gives me bad moderate printing.

Thanks for your understanding and kindness as well as patience.

[Taranis]

As I said, Basque has a large stock of vocabulary of words concerning agriculture, domesticated animals and metal-working, which is clearly not found in other languages.

The vocabulary of Continental Celtic (Celtiberian, Gáulico) is little known.

This is not true. Our knowledge about Gaulish vocabulary (not so Gaulish grammar) is fairly complete, actually. In addition:

"maite" may indeed probably a Celtic loanword.

Welsh "mynydd" and Breton "menez" require an earlier Proto-Celtic *monjo-, whereas the ancestral form of "mendi" would have been *bendi.

"andera" is not found in any branch of the Indo-European languages and may be a Basque loanword into Celtic.

Basque "hartz" may indeed be a Celtic loanword (Gaulish "artos"). The root word is in turn found in other branches of Indo-European (Italic, Greek, Hittite, Sanskrit).

[Carlos]

"The lauburu, become the symbol of the Basque nation advocated by Arana does not have the millennia-old wants to attribute to him, is a modern symbol"
This claim is false, lauburu like other solar symbols is extremely old, even in Georgia millenia-old artifacts and building remains are covered with those...
borjgali.jpg

But among the Basques, that's where prefabrication and manipulation of Sabino Arana. I think you have not heard yet that there is no archaeological vestige of the Basques, is not suspicious?, In many cases thousands of years would give a kick to a stone and would that symbol, but it is not. The discussion is not the antiquity of the symbol if no misappropriation of a nationalist symbol on a relatively modern award that does not fool anyone, maybe some European romantic stuck in the 19 century?, It is possible!

Georgia should be a wonderful place, as you know have also tried to connect Basque with you, is not it ridiculous?

So many experts, who know nothing of the Celtiberian and still dream of that Basque came from the Cro-Magnons, historical facts, historical chronicles, or good for nothing known in addition to the absence of archaeological remains, leading to a path that is another an African origin for the Basque and a pike in Flanders do not want to lose some skilful political grounds, because it's something that locks the Berber dialect study sponge hundreds of words in their environment, which further complicates their study .

[Taranis]

But among the Basques, that's where prefabrication and manipulation of Sabino Arana. I think you have not heard yet that there is no archaeological vestige of the Basques, is not suspicious?, In many cases thousands of years would give a kick to a stone and would that symbol, but it is not. The discussion is not the antiquity of the symbol if no misappropriation of a nationalist symbol on a relatively modern award that does not fool anyone, maybe some European romantic stuck in the 19 century?, It is possible!

Georgia should be a wonderful place, as you know have also tried to connect Basque with you, is not it ridiculous?

So many experts, who know nothing of the Celtiberian and still dream of that Basque came from the Cro-Magnons, historical facts, historical chronicles, or good for nothing known in addition to the absence of archaeological remains, leading to a path that is another an African origin for the Basque and a pike in Flanders do not want to lose some skilful political grounds, because it's something that locks the Berber dialect study sponge hundreds of words in their environment, which further complicates their study .

Carlos, I'm giving you hereby an informal warning to stop with your bigotry against the Basques.

[Franco]

It is often assumed that the isolation of the basque language implies the zone was populated by Basque speakers from very ancient times, but I don't think so. The basques may be relatively newcomers to Northern Spain by the times of the Romans. This is specially true for the Basque Country (northern Spain), which was inhabited by Celtic tribes before the Basques migrated to there and dispalced the native population.

[LeBrok]

Frank, at this time period it's hard to talk about Celts to be native. They were relatively newcomers to the area.
At the moment we don't know exactly when Basque or Celts showed up, plus or minus thousand years.

[Taranis]

Frank, at this time period it's hard to talk about Celts to be native. They were relatively newcomers to the area.
At the moment we don't know exactly when Basque or Celts showed up, plus or minus thousand years.

If we look at the situation in Antiquity, the Basques were borders from two sides by Celtic-speaking peoples: the Gauls from the north and northeast, and the Celtiberians and their relatives from the west and southwest (as well as the non-IE Iberians from the east). My opinion is that the Basques cannot have had contact with the Celts for very long, and if they had, it cannot have been very intense. The Basques stand quite in contrast here for example to the Germanic peoples who extensively borrowed words from Celtic.

My personal hunch is that the Basques were indeed autochtonous since at least the Neolithic, and that the Basque terms for metal-working date from the Beaker-Bell period.

Here is a (complete?) list of Celtic loanwords loanwords into Basque:

'aran' (plum) - present in Welsh 'eirinen' (plum) and Old Irish 'áirne' (sloe).

'arraun' (oar) - present in Old Irish 'rama', Latin 'remus'. The Proto-Celtic form is reconstructed as *ramo-.

'hartz' (bear) - present in Gaulish 'artos', Old Irish 'art', Welsh 'arth', Breton 'arzh'.

'daraturu' (drill) - from Gaulish 'taratro-'.

*ganbo- (hot spring). Only in place names. From Gaulish 'kambo-' (slope, bend, curve), compare with 'Cambodunum' (modern Kempten, Bavaria).

'maite' (beloved) - compare with Old Irish 'maith' ('good'), from earlier Proto-Celtic *mati-.

In addition, there is the following set of words which are found both in Basque and Celtic, not found elsewhere:

'adar' (horn) is only found in Irish (Old Irish 'adarc', modern Irish 'adharc'), and has no cognate anywhere else except Basque. This may be a common borrowing from a third source.

'andere' (lady), found in Old Irish 'ainder'. This word may be a Basque/Aquitanian borrowing into Celtic, due to the presence of the Aquitanian word "andos" (which can be translates as 'lord').

'harr' (rock), from an earlier *karr- as in Old Irish 'carrac' (boulder, rock).

[Carlos]

Carlos, I'm giving you hereby an informal warning to stop with your bigotry against the Basques.

What an outrage!, I am researching to reach a conclusion, I glass on historical information and data that exist today, I can compare them and come to a conclusion. Make no mistake, I'm talking at all times of old, probably the majority of Basques already have very little actual genetics of those "men of various races," citing the classics and those who have inherited that for me is a dialect of Berber.

On the modern Basques have not yet begun to talk, if you want to do.

Greetings, we will continue talking to the night now I have three hours to eat before a job and I have no desire indigestible.

Thanks for seeing me and very friendly.

[Knovas]

And here we go again with the "men of various races", which as I pointed above could mean many different things due to its ambiguousness. No need to say that, genetically speaking, there's little or nothing supporting such claim in the Basques. Obviously Carlos has serious problems with all type of non Spanish Nationalism in the Peninsula (as attested by other posts), so if I were you Taranis I'd prefer to focus the discussion in the non biased opinions.

By the way, what it's clear to me at least, is that in genetic terms it's difficult to find the connection with the language. Possibly we'll never know the exact origins.

[Wilhelm]

So many experts, who know nothing of the Celtiberian and still dream of that Basque came from the Cro-Magnons, historical facts, historical chronicles, or good for nothing known in addition to the absence of archaeological remains, leading to a path that is another an African origin for the Basque and a pike in Flanders do not want to lose some skilful political grounds, because it's something that locks the Berber dialect study sponge hundreds of words in their environment, which further complicates their study .

Plese, stay with facts. The highest concentration of paleolithic mtDNA U5 has been found in modern Northern Navarrese (basque speakers) at 15-17%, also mtDNA H1,H2, and V is high in all the cantabrian-pyrenees fringe.

[Knovas]

I personally tend to think that Basques are less Paleolithic than the average Iberians due to R1b influence, but I'll keep cautious waiting for more data. Anyways, they are largely European in autosomal results, doesn't matter what the influence is.

[Carlos]

And here we go again with the "men of various races", which as I pointed above could mean many different things due to its ambiguousness. No need to say that, genetically speaking, there's little or nothing supporting such claim in the Basques. Obviously Carlos has serious problems with all type of non Spanish Nationalism in the Peninsula (as attested by other posts), so if I were you Taranis I'd prefer to focus the discussion in the non biased opinions.

By the way, what it's clear to me at least, is that in genetic terms it's difficult to find the connection with the language. Possibly we'll never know the exact origins.

In research I am conducting on the Basque language is necessary to collect all the information on the topic, Sabino Arana version or the Basque nationalists, Nordic 19th century who, oddly enough their ideas and thoughts are still based.

I do not consider to be taboo any way forward in the investigation, obviously now after so many centuries of research no specialist has succeeded in giving a good result on the issue of Basque origin, perhaps because they take risks and as seeing here is an attempt to create taboos that hinder research.

I hope I have left my position clear and not twist again about my interests. The important thing is to find the truth at any cost.

And in view of the results on the Basque language, now I have more credibility to the historical chronicles and interested party's opinion of 19 century northern and of course much more than those of Sabino Arana and Basque nationalists today.

And I think the Romans had experience with tribes and races, are not you going to make people believe that the Romans mistook a tribe where 20 have black hair and brown 10 3 blonde with the epithet of "people of various races," Sorry, but I will not confess millstones.

You know there are things that foreigners are escapes, subtleties and Spain do not realize nobody believes the Nationalists and high doses of victimhood, and not have to be taboo, as the nationalists have said many things without demonstrating and there is no reason that can not be refuted their arguments without anyone to believe that they are being attacked, and they know this very well used, use victimhood to shut mouths, thankfully in Spain and they do not, so I hope the same will happen in Europe.

[Carlos]

Plese, stay with facts. The highest concentration of paleolithic mtDNA U5 has been found in modern Northern Navarrese (basque speakers) at 15-17%, also mtDNA H1,H2, and V is high in all the cantabrian-pyrenees fringe.

What are the concentrations in Lima (Peru), and what language they speak? or Haiti, the Philippines, Canary Islands. In ancient stories say that 3% of Arabs were able to turn an entire country to Islam.

I think tying the issue of Basque the only genetic data is just stuck in the investigation continue.

[Taranis]

I personally tend to think that Basques are less Paleolithic than the average Iberians due to R1b influence, but I'll keep cautious waiting for more data. Anyways, they are largely European in autosomal results, doesn't matter what the influence is.

Well, I brought this up above regarding the non-IE vocabulary of Basque. Although we have no way to test which part of the vocabulary is "native", I think that it is fairly unlikely that Basque is a Paleolithic/Mesolithic language because that would mean that it had borrowed all it's vocabulary for farming and domesticated animals. I think it makes more sense if Basque is actually a Neolithic language which later on picked up other non-IE terms (horse, metal-working) during the Copper Age.

[Carlos]

The same term to read and gather are similar in modern Basque, same view as in German and Latin, probably a vision and took the Basque term borrowed from Latin. Dismissing all the "pay for lacking" that must acquire other languages ​​Basque everything about jobs and development must be the key to the Celtiberian language.

[Carlos]

Plese, stay with facts. The highest concentration of paleolithic mtDNA U5 has been found in modern Northern Navarrese (basque speakers) at 15-17%, also mtDNA H1,H2, and V is high in all the cantabrian-pyrenees fringe.

It is an example of human migrations in the area of the subject at hand and taking into account the continuing thereafter emigration movements in Spain itself, Romans, Visigoths, Muslim era, America until even after the expulsion of the-Muslims what credible relationship can have the mitochondrial DNA haplogroups cited in connection with the Basque language which gives an unproven old to date?, also noted that mitochondrial DNA may be responsible for the acquisition of Basque new words and better, in what may be grammatical constructions, and that if I keep my Basque origin hypothesis in a more archaic Iberian extra component would have to look to the DNA rather than mitochondrial, and if we consider that and should be a DNA varied according to the chronicles plus Roman also take into account all migrations into Iberia, Hispania and Spain, plus the fact that the heirs of more primitive Basque language today would not have the same DNA and that people that Hubis taken that language to the area, based on the DNA to justify business as usual, has not been moved or a leaf, would be like finding a needle in a haystack to find the DNA and those that led to the foreign dialect area north of modern Spain.

Los contactos de la cultura Argárica también se extienden hacia el Guadalquivir, dando lugar más tarde a Tartessos. Las penetraciones a través del Pirineo de otras culturas es constante y durará centenares de años. El impacto de estas migraciones es mayor en el interior y norte de la península que todavía no tiene el desarrollo de la zona meridional. Los nuevos pobladores son diestros en la explotación y fabricación de instrumentos de hierro. Las oleadas de inmigrantes se acercan por dos puntos: por las actuales Navarra y País Vasco por un lado, y por la zona oriental hasta Cataluña por otro. Traen mejores técnicas agrícolas y ocupan los espacios de la Meseta que son los que menos población tienen en esos momentos. Usaron los yacimientos de hierro del norte de España, y aplicaron la cultura cerealista y una ganadería extensiva. Siendo dominantes en el centro y parte noroccidental de España, lograron finalmente ser la clase dirigente en la zona de norte del Mediterráneo español, mientras que las culturas del sur y del sureste permanecieron más ajenas.