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Thread: Bosnia - haplogroups in three main ethnic groups

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Y-DNA: Ostrogothic - South Slavic (Bosniak) / mtDNA: Celtic - Roman - South Slavic (Bosniak)
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Bosnia - haplogroups in three main ethnic groups



    Can you please write down those numbers of percentage on "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage":

    Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims):
    E3b1: 13%
    E3b*: 0%
    G: 3,5%
    I1: 4,5%
    I2a: 43,5%
    I* 0%
    I2b: 0%
    J1: 2,5%
    J2: 9,5%
    R1a1: 15,5%
    R1b: 3,5%
    T: 1%


    Bosnian Serbs:
    E3b1: 20%
    E3b*: 2,5%
    G: 1%
    I1: 2,5%
    I2a: 31%
    I2b: 1%
    I*: 1%
    J1: 0%
    J2: 8,5%
    R1a1: 13,5%
    R1b: 6%
    T: 7,5%


    Bosnian Croats:
    E3b1: 9%
    E3b*: 0%
    G: 1%
    I1: 0%
    I2a: 71%
    I*: 2%
    I2b: 0%
    J1: 0%
    J2: 1%
    R1a1: 12%
    R1b: 2%
    T: 0%

    From: "The peopling of Bosnia-Herzegovina: Y-chromosome haplogroups in the three main ethnic groups, 2005" by Marjan Damjanović.

    I am sorry, I am new here, but for some reason, I am not yet allowed to post links on this forum.

    Thank you.
    Last edited by Kotroman; 27-12-11 at 18:48.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Y-DNA: Ostrogothic - South Slavic (Bosniak) / mtDNA: Celtic - Roman - South Slavic (Bosniak)
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    It would be great if the person who is responsible (probably the moderator) for writing down the percentages of haplogroups in "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage", could write down those numbers of percentages under Bosnia and Herzegovina, with Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, like you did with Germany, France, Greece and Spain.
    Last edited by Kotroman; 14-01-12 at 21:20.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    It would be great if the person who is responsible (probably the moderator) for writing down the percentages of haplogroups in "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage", could write down those numbers of percentages under Bosnia and Herzegovina, with Bosniaks, Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats, like you did with Germany, France, Greece and Spain.
    I suggest to either write % only for Muslim Boshniaks or but as the poster above suggested, but it need to be fixed.

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    I don't understand why called bosniaks.......just because you are muslim don't need to change name of ethnic group.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Y-DNA: Ostrogothic - South Slavic (Bosniak) / mtDNA: Celtic - Roman - South Slavic (Bosniak)
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    I suggest to either write % only for Muslim Boshniaks or but as the poster above suggested, but it need to be fixed.
    Absolutely. :) But we will see what Maciamo will do in due time.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Y-DNA: Ostrogothic - South Slavic (Bosniak) / mtDNA: Celtic - Roman - South Slavic (Bosniak)
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Quote Originally Posted by Marko94 View Post
    I don't understand why called bosniaks.......just because you are muslim don't need to change name of ethnic group.
    Changed name of ethnic group? What? When?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Can you please write down those numbers of percentage on "Distribution of European Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) haplogroups by country in percentage":

    Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims):
    E3b1: 13%
    E3b*: 0%
    G: 3,5%
    I1: 4,5%
    I2a: 43,5%
    I* 0%
    I2b: 0%
    J1: 2,5%
    J2: 9,5%
    R1a1: 15,5%
    R1b: 3,5%
    T: 1%


    Bosnian Serbs:
    E3b1: 20%
    E3b*: 2,5%
    G: 1%
    I1: 2,5%
    I2a: 31%
    I2b: 1%
    I*: 1%
    J1: 0%
    J2: 8,5%
    R1a1: 13,5%
    R1b: 6%
    T: 7,5%


    Bosnian Croats:
    E3b1: 9%
    E3b*: 0%
    G: 1%
    I1: 0%
    I2a: 71%
    I*: 2%
    I2b: 0%
    J1: 0%
    J2: 1%
    R1a1: 12%
    R1b: 2%
    T: 0%

    From: "The peopling of Bosnia-Herzegovina: Y-chromosome haplogroups in the three main ethnic groups, 2005" by Marjan Damjanović.

    I am sorry, I am new here, but for some reason, I am not yet allowed to post links on this forum.

    Thank you.
    It is a coincidence that T1 among Bosnian Serbs is too much. You can see findings in Serbia. According Pericic et al. in Serbia was 7,8% K*. However newer researches not confirmed it (not mentoin it). And I have a little skepticism about researches performed at that time. Again, the example of Serbia, later two researches conducted of American scientists (2010 and 2012) gave real situation Serbian haplogroups. I think it is right time that in Bosnia and Hezegovina (both Republic of Serbian and BH federation) be performed serious research and to be led by American or European researchers, not the local or Balkans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Changed name of ethnic group? What? When?
    You are right. Bosniacs may themselves to call how wish. They are mostly muslim, but, you agree, that probably there are Bosniacs who are atheists. But people who are not from the Balkans can interfere terms Bosniacs and Bosnians. Both Serbs and Bosniacs and Croats can be Bosnians, Bosnians are inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina, while Bosniacs are one of nations who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is fair to say. And I think, although I'm not sure, that it is more appropriate to write in English Bosniacs rather than Bosniaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    It is a coincidence that T1 among Bosnian Serbs is too much. You can see findings in Serbia. According Pericic et al. in Serbia was 7,8% K*. However newer researches not confirmed it (not mentoin it). And I have a little skepticism about researches performed at that time. Again, the example of Serbia, later two researches conducted of American scientists (2010 and 2012) gave real situation Serbian haplogroups. I think it is right time that in Bosnia and Hezegovina (both Republic of Serbian and BH federation) be performed serious research and to be led by American or European researchers, not the local or Balkans.



    You are right. Bosniacs may themselves to call how wish. They are mostly muslim, but, you agree, that probably there are Bosniacs who are atheists. But people who are not from the Balkans can interfere terms Bosniacs and Bosnians. Both Serbs and Bosniacs and Croats can be Bosnians, Bosnians are inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina, while Bosniacs are one of nations who live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is fair to say. And I think, although I'm not sure, that it is more appropriate to write in English Bosniacs rather than Bosniaks.
    I'm surprised Bosian serbs have such high E3b1 at 20% don't you think so? On a y-dna chart they are closest with Gheg Albanians and Greeks then rest of Serbia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luan View Post
    I'm surprised Bosian serbs have such high E3b1 at 20% don't you think so?
    I don't think so. One part of Thracians are Serbs, and you can see in this forum, assumption is that Thracians were carriers of E1b1b. It is same with Bosniacs, they have about 14% E1b1b. Bulgarians have more than Serbs and Bosniacs, again Thracian roots.

    It is possible that some Serbian tribes from Montenegro probably were carriers of E1b1b. And Serbs and Greeks have long common history and interference. And Serbs and Romanians too. Etc.

    And you can notice we are talking about movements carriers of haplogroups, all today's nations are a product of modern time.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    I don't think so. One part of Thracians are Serbs, and you can see in this forum, assumption is that Thracians were carriers of E1b1b. It is same with Bosniacs, they have about 14% E1b1b. Bulgarians have more than Serbs and Bosniacs, again Thracian roots.

    It is possible that some Serbian tribes from Montenegro probably were carriers of E1b1b. And Serbs and Greeks have long common history and interference. And Serbs and Romanians too. Etc.

    And you can notice we are talking about movements carriers of haplogroups, all today's nations are a product of modern time.
    Its only assumption that E1b1b were carriers by thracians,but does not change the fact that bosnian serb cluster more with Gheg Albanians, greeks then do with the majority serbs who have I2a. I dont know if that bothers you.
    Last edited by Luan; 06-09-13 at 23:06.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    It depends where the samples were gathered. If they were gathered in eastern BiH, the percentage of E3b1 would be higher that that for western Bosnia, and I don't think that has anything to do with their ethnicity.

    Thracians and Illyrians are assumed to be R1a, I2 at this moment.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Luan View Post
    Its only assumption that E1b1 were carriers by thracians,but does not change the fact that bosnian serb cluster more with Gheg Albanians, greeks then do with the majority serbs who have I2a. I dont know if that bothers you.
    Why bother me? I don't understand. The aim is to find out what were the movements bearers of different haplogroups in the past, when there was no nations in today's terms, nor state borders. And yes, the assumptions are that Thracians were carriers of E1b1b, you can see that Maciamo write that Thracians and Illyrians were carriers of I2a1b (I2a2 older nomenclature) and R1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    It depends where the samples were gathered. If they were gathered in eastern BiH, the percentage of E3b1 would be higher that that for western Bosnia, and I don't think that has anything to do with their ethnicity.

    Thracians and Illyrians are assumed to be R1a, I2 at this moment.
    Yes, eastern BiH have more E1b1b (more relatively to other parts not absolutely) and northern BiH have more R1a and Herzegovina have more I2a2. And carriers of haplogroups in past had nothing to do with today's ethnicity.

    It is interesting, earlier opinion was that the Trachians were more E1b1b, today a lot of people think that Thracians were mix I2a2 and R1a. Maybe, Thracians were mix all of three haplogroups, and it is possible that some Thracian regions were more E1b1b and other more I2a2 and R1a. Thracians were big group of tribes and probably they had different haplogroups.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The thracians where I2a tribesmen; as where the Dacians

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The thracians where I2a tribesmen; as where the Dacians
    There are different opinions. Bird (2007) writes in Journal of Genetic Genealogy that the highest frequency E1b1b (E-V13) worldwide were at Thracians and Dacians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The thracians where I2a tribesmen; as where the Dacians
    I don't think majority wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adamo View Post
    The thracians where I2a tribesmen; as where the Dacians
    yes for what you say about Dacians, but thracians are I2c , as per southern thracia and anatolian thracians( bithynia), its also found in kurds and armenians.
    Its even in britain brought by thracian roman legionaires
    Armenian/kurd I2 individuals are mostly I2c (P215+ L596+ L597+ P37.2- P217- L416-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    Yes, eastern BiH have more E1b1b (more relatively to other parts not absolutely) and northern BiH have more R1a and Herzegovina have more I2a2. And carriers of haplogroups in past had nothing to do with today's ethnicity.

    It is interesting, earlier opinion was that the Trachians were more E1b1b, today a lot of people think that Thracians were mix I2a2 and R1a. Maybe, Thracians were mix all of three haplogroups, and it is possible that some Thracian regions were more E1b1b and other more I2a2 and R1a. Thracians were big group of tribes and probably they had different haplogroups.
    IIRC E1b1b1 is from North-west africa ( berber)

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    the only "illyrian" I marker that I know about is from pannonia area and its
    Haplo I2a1b3 (M423+ L621+), found basically from masovia to pannonia and the eastern alps, and is also in the british isles.
    I would like to know if its found in some southern "illyrian" tribes

    The name of Illyrians as applied by the ancient Greeks to their northern neighbours may have referred to a broad, ill-defined group of peoples, and it is today unclear to what extent they were linguistically and culturally homogeneous. The Illyrian tribes never collectively regarded themselves as 'Illyrians', and it is unlikely that they utilized any collective nomenclature for themselves.[7] The term Illyrioi may originally have designated only a single people who came to be widely known to the Greeks due to proximity.[18]

    due to modern terms for illyrians as per above, the southern illyrian I am referring to are the dalmatians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    IIRC E1b1b1 is from North-west africa ( berber)
    Yes you're right, I should write E1b1b1a1b but it is long, and illegible. E1b1b is not mistaken, because it is origin (M-215), and a lot of people write so. Of course it is more accurate to write long or E-V13, you can see that I sometimes write E-V13 parenthetical.
    Last edited by Garrick; 07-09-13 at 01:32.

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    Thank you Maciamo for writing down the numbers of percentage of Bosnian ethnic groups, but why isn't Bosniaks seperately written? Also, Herzegovinian is an geographic and not ethnic term (just like Siberians, etc), all ethnic groups, such as Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Roma, etc. are Herzegovinians. I think that you should write the haplogroup percentage of the Bosniak population seperately from Herzegovinians, just such as you did With Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Thank you Maciamo for writing down the numbers of percentage of Bosnian ethnic groups, but why isn't Bosniaks seperately written? Also, Herzegovinian is an geographic and not ethnic term (just like Siberians, etc), all ethnic groups, such as Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Roma, etc. are Herzegovinians. I think that you should write the haplogroup percentage of the Bosniak population seperately from Herzegovinians, just such as you did With Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Croats.
    Pericic et al. 2005 had separate data for Bosniaks and Herzegovinians, but since they didn't mention what ethnic group was included in Herzegovinians I put it together with the data for Bosniaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
    Changed name of ethnic group? What? When?
    I wanted to say "why bosnian musliman are called bosniak and not bosnian? Why change name?".

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    Because the definition of nationality gives them that right. As a group of people that speak the same language, that's been together through some sort of political and cultural development, and that is aware of their own distinctions in contrast to neighbouring nationalities, they have the right to declare a different national identity.

    Bosniak national identity was formed in last century or so, and is mainly based on their cultural differences that rely on their religious beliefs. Before 1922. Turkish population was a ruling caste in Bosnia and it populated only cities, so when the fallout occurred they quickly migrated to modern Turkey. The peasants, highlanders and poor people in the cities, all muslim and mainly uneducated (as all in Bosnia at that time) were left in the new country (Kingdom of Yugoslavia) confused. They had problems integrating in new, industrial society and European culture, and in lack of better term were refered as Turks for a long time, although they probably knew they are not real Turks.

    During the last Balkan war (1991.) they rightfully fulfilled that void and chosen the Bosniak national identity. It's pretty much logical, but somewhat confusing, especially when we have country called Bosnia and Bosnian people.

    As for their ethnicity, they don't say what they are, but DNA analysis will reveal that eventually.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Bosniak national identity was formed in last century or so, and is mainly based on their cultural differences that rely on their religious beliefs.
    That is false, it dates back to the medieval Kingdom of Bosnia. Read the book "Bosnia: a Short History" by Noel Malcolm, and read the writings of friar Antun Knežević.

    As for their ethnicity, they don't say what they are, but DNA analysis will reveal that eventually.



    It is already known what we are, we are more European than both Serbs and Croats. Serbs have more neolithic Near-Eastern ancestry, Croats have more Bronze Age Indo-European ancestry from Central Asia.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml



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