Bosnia - haplogroups in three main ethnic groups

[Garrick]

Ok but why called bosniaks and not bosnian??
I have friends serb and he explained to me: "bosnian are bosnian christians and Bosniaks are bosnian musliman".
I know this about bosnian.
I think is no sense "invented" the term for united all ethnic group.
Because french are inhabitants of france, we italian are inhabitants of italy and in bosnia and herzegovina who are the rlly inhabitants?? Bosniaks?Croats?Serbs?

I explained. Inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina are Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats as Flemish people and Walloon people are inhabitants of Belgium. Serbs live mostly in Republic of Serbian, and Bosniacs and Croats live mostly in BH federation. Republic of Serbian and BH federation are two entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

In Bosnia Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are Bosnians. I think that Bosnia is mostly Christian land because there are more Serbs and Croats than Bosniacs. If census shows that Serbs and Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina (both Republic of Serbian and BH federation) in sum are more than Bosniacs, this would mean that Bosnians are more Christians than Muslims. But we will see new census, for Bosnia and Herzegovina is problem that census of population has not been a long.

I think this is clear enough for someone to understand difference in terms Bosniacs and Bosnians.

Just see your country as unstable.
If Bosnia and Erzegovins is of the Bosniaks the Bosniaks amministrate Bosnia and Erzegovina and for reffer to people of Bosnia and Erzegovina we use the term "bosniaks".
Croats and Serb are just emigrants.

Bosnia and Herzegovina is complex country as Belgium. Who can say that Flemish people are emigrants and whole Belgium is Walloon, or Walloon people are emigrants and whole Belgium is Flemish. In Bosnia Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are Bosnians as in Belgium Flemish people and Walloon people are Belgians.

I do not see what there is not clear. In the world there are countries that are complex and consist of multiple entities and peoples.

 

[Marko94]

I explained. Inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina are Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats as Flemish people and Walloon people are inhabitants of Belgium. Serbs live mostly in Republic of Serbian, and Bosniacs and Croats live mostly in BH federation. Republic of Serbian and BH federation are two entities of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

In Bosnia Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats are Bosnians. I think that Bosnia is mostly Christian land because there are more Serbs and Croats than Bosniacs. If census shows that Serbs and Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina (both Republic of Serbian and BH federation) in sum are more than Bosniacs, this would mean that Bosnians are more Christians than Muslims. But we will new census, for Bosnia and Herzegovina is problem that census of population has not been a long.

I think this is clear enough for someone to understand difference in terms Bosniacs and Bosnians.

I have understand, but is no senso (for me) that in a country other ethnicities rule while.
Then it is better that the Croats are joined to Croatia, Serbia to the Serbs, and Bosniaks that they form their own state.
For the religion, all European lands are christian.
Serbs in the north of Albania there are Catholics.
I wonder how can they are Catholic.

And then i would like to ask a question.
But the Albanians of the north albania are slavs??

 

[Templar]

Conclusion is that Serbs are similar to other Balkan peoples and Bosnicas are closer to east European peoples.

The primary haplogroup in Eastern European is OVERWHELMINGLY R1a. You cannot ignore that by lumping I2 with r1a as part of the "East European" package. The ratio of I2a to R1a is completely different in Bosnia than it is in, for example Poland. Poland only has 5.5% I2 and 57.5% r1a, compared to Bosnia's 50% I2 and 13.5% R1a, the difference is astoundingly huge. The ratio is almost the reverse.

 

[Templar]

You mean nationality. There is still no evidence of Bosnian/Bosniak ethnicity. Nowhere are they mentioned as a tribe.

You don't necessarily have to be mentioned as a tribe in order to be an ethnicity. There are many mentions of medieval Bosnians in various old texts. They were often referred to as "dobri Bosnjani".

 

[Garrick]

I have understand, but is no senso (for me) that in a country other ethnicities rule while.
Then it is better that the Croats are joined to Croatia, Serbia to the Serbs, and Bosniaks that they form their own state.
For the religion, all European lands are christian.
Serbs in the north of Albania there are Catholics.
I wonder how can they are Catholic.

And then i would like to ask a question.
But the Albanians of the north albanian are slavs??

Why not. There are Serbs who are Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. Previously there were many Catholic Serbs. Today most Serbs are Orthodox, followed by Protestants. Tens of thousands of Serbs are Muslim (I think mainly in the capital). In Serbia there are a lot of atheists mostly the older generations. Most of them are Communists who remained in their belief. No Communists among the young.

I know that in Albania lived Serbs but today most of them were assimilated, especially in times of Enver Hoxha. But it is interesting some people from Albania who say that are Serbs of all faiths Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, want to come to live in Serbia. I don't know whether they are of Serbian origin, or no, maybe you're right.

 

[Ike]

You don't necessarily have to be mentioned as a tribe in order to be an ethnicity. There are many mentions of medieval Bosnians in various old texts. They were often referred to as "dobri Bosnjani".

I know, but we have to be certain that ethnicity was mentioned before geographical allocation.
There are mentions of Illyrian river Bosona, after which region may have been called Bosnia, and inhabitants Bosnians.

The only other case that I know in Slavic population, where major river name corresponds with the name of the tribe, are Moravians in Czech/Poland. But there are no river Serbia or Croatia or Slovakia, etc...


One explanation could indeed be that Bosnians did not come to Balkans in most recent migration of 6th century, a theory which some Bosniak historians support. If that was the case, there may have been a small tribe around river Bosnia for centuries before, and since it was bound to a very small region by the river, tribe identified itself with it, just as local Serbian inhabtants of Pomoravlje around Morava river, are called Moravci.

But that's still a long shot, and historians here are used far more for political purposes than for truth. Further DNA analysis can point us if that's the right direction to search.

 

[Garrick]

The primary haplogroup in Eastern European is OVERWHELMINGLY R1a. You cannot ignore that by lumping I2 with r1a as part of the "East European" package. The ratio of I2a to R1a is completely different in Bosnia than it is in, for example Poland. Poland only has 5.5% I2 and 57.5% r1a, compared to Bosnia's 50% I2 and 13.5% R1a, the difference is astoundingly huge. The ratio is almost the reverse.

Ok, but due to the high I2a and small R1b, E1b1b1a2, J2 etc., Bosniacs are very specific and atypical Balkan peoples compared to Serbs, Romanians, Macedonians, Montenegrins, Bulgarians, Tosk Albanians and Greeks, who share more common Balkan haplogroups.

You wrote that Serbs have more near eastern ancestry but it is not true. Serbs are typical Balkan people and Bosniacs are atypical, if you really looked in detail Bosniacs are closer east Europeans than Serbs. I can still think about Bosniacs as Balkan peoples (but again atypical) because Bosniacs are closer to other Balkan people than Croats in Croatia and Geg Albanians.

 

[Garrick]

No u are not more European then Serbs and Croats, not even close. All three are European. As for what u call neolithic is is older then what u falsely believe to be " more European" . If we follow ur " Internet nationalists" logic the most European are the Croats, because of the higher I2a, but it does not work like this.
First in the Balkan u have I2a, then come E-V13,J2b2,some T and R1b-HT35 in the end come R1a and other R1b. The fact that u r I2a means nothing maybe all man in tjhe family of ur Mom and all other man in the family of ur Dad are E-V13 and J1 and N1c, u can not trace all ur lines, not even close. I am astonished of Albanians and Yugoslavs that try wrongly to claim history and genes and more European. The difference between u and Croats and Serbs is that ur ancestors changed their religion. They did it for different reasons:
1. They were a sect called Bogomil and they were being tortured by Catholics and Orthodox people because in the Middle Ages, sect was seen as worse then not believing or being Muslim, so they though instead of being also tortured by Muslim we can become one and have dominant position
2. They change their religion for economical reasons and so their children and not being stolen for sex slaves in harems and enichars
3. They did it because the Muslims said either u become Muslim or u be tortured and killed
All of the above things happened in the Balkan in the case of Bosnian the 1 is the biggest reason. Before u become Muslims u were almost identical to Orthodox Serbs and Catholic Croats.
I find it annoying and disturbing and propaganda to say Bosnians are more European then Croats and Serbs.
In cultural sense u are less European, because u r Muslims and connected with Turks and Arabs
Qua look u are more or less the same dark haired Dinaric people with tanned European white skin, often blue eyes really tall.
Qua genes u r more or less the same, differences are negligible.
Also there is no good sample on Bosnians or Serbs, only on Croats.
And for the last time E-V13 is older then all genes in the Balkan except I2a. Regarding R1b-HT-35 and J2b2 and most of G2a maybe it is more or less the same age.
It is nice that u r interested in genetics but u should understand it and make good tests. What test have u made? 23andme is the best, regarding being I2a, let me give u an possible example a I2a Austrians(it exist in them) in 1601 married a Chinese woman and their child marries an English women and the child a Japanese woman and the child an Arab girl and the child a Bulgarian girl and the child a Swedish girl and the child a Mexican girl etc.etc, the direct male line is I2a, but for the rest the picture is totally different.
I hope we can talk genetics and not propaganda of nationalists from the West Balkans

Yes, and I think that science and scientific papers about Y-DNA, mtDNA etc. neutralized propaganda. For example in the Balkans, it turned out that Balkan nations are much closer than the nationalists thought. And it is nice knowing because people need to cooperate with each other and not to dispute.

 

[Ike]

.
And for the last time E-V13 is older then all genes in the Balkan except I2a.

1. We still don't know when E-V13 entered Balkans. There are suggestions that is 8000 years old, and that it may have origin in Levant, Anatolia or Balkans. Nothing more so far.

2. We still don't know when I2 entered Balkans. Maciamo just said:

"I used to think that I2a1b in the Dinaric Alps were the remnants of the original hunter-gatherers and that only the I2a1b outside the Dinaric Alps and Balkans were integrated to the Corded Ware culture and became Proto-Slavs, then Slavs. However there is so little difference between the Dinaric and other Eastern European I2a1b, all belonging to the same deep subclade (L621>CTS4002>...>L147.2) that they must all descend from a fairly recent ancestor and have expanded no earlier than 3000 to 1500 BCE."

So no conclusive answer there.

3. We still don't know when R1a entered Balkans. There are works that push it up all the way back to 8000 BC. No certainty.

 

[Templar]

You wrote that Serbs have more near eastern ancestry but it is not true. Serbs are typical Balkan people and Bosniacs are atypical, if you really looked in detail Bosniacs are closer east Europeans than Serbs..

Typical Balkan people have high Near Eastern ancestry. Like the Greeks and Bulgarians. Southern Europe is largely inhabited by people who migrated there from Anatolia and brought with them farming technology. You just have to look at haplogroup data for Balkan countries (and Southern Europe in general) to see what I mean. I am not saying that is a bad thing though.

 

[Templar]

I know, but we have to be certain that ethnicity was mentioned before geographical allocation.
There are mentions of Illyrian river Bosona, after which region may have been called Bosnia, and inhabitants Bosnians.

The only other case that I know in Slavic population, where major river name corresponds with the name of the tribe, are Moravians in Czech/Poland. But there are no river Serbia or Croatia or Slovakia, etc...


One explanation could indeed be that Bosnians did not come to Balkans in most recent migration of 6th century, a theory which some Bosniak historians support. If that was the case, there may have been a small tribe around river Bosnia for centuries before, and since it was bound to a very small region by the river, tribe identified itself with it, just as local Serbian inhabtants of Pomoravlje around Morava river, are called Moravci.
.

Keep in mind that Croats and Serbs weren't the only Slavic tribes to inhabit the Western Balkans. Before their arrival, there were several smaller tribes who arrived alongside the Avars. A local Slav-Illyrian culture could have developed deep in the mountainous parts of Bosnia. Now you might then ask how come Serbo-Croatian was spoken in Bosnia then, well it could be due to cultural diffusion due to close proximity.

 

[Ike]

Typical Balkan people have high Near Eastern ancestry. Like the Greeks and Bulgarians. Southern Europe is largely inhabited by people who migrated there from Anatolia and brought with them farming technology. You just have to look at haplogroup data for Balkan countries (and Southern Europe in general) to see what I mean. I am not saying that is a bad thing though.

You two have to define what moment in time are you talking about. Percentages change with every war. What do you consider typical? Is present time typical?

Keep in mind that Croats and Serbs weren't the only Slavic tribes to inhabit the Western Balkans. Before their arrival, there were several smaller tribes who arrived alongside the Avars. A local Slav-Illyrian culture could have developed deep in the mountainous parts of Bosnia. Now you might then ask how come Serbo-Croatian was spoken in Bosnia then, well it could be due to cultural diffusion due to close proximity.

I'm aware of that. For there are at least three major Slavic waves into Balkans identified. And there may have been more smaller ones. And those may have been backwaves, which would only complicate situation

It's doesn't matter what is the name of the language, but what confuses me is, if they spoke Old Slavic, how had it evolved into almost the same language (BHS) today on three different locations/kingdoms/religions/nations over 1000 years period? It seems to me almost impossible. Does that indicate that some sort of language evolution had already happened in Balkan Slavs, before last wave of Croats and Serbs came to Balkan in 520 AD, so that they have quickly adopted? There is low possibility that Balkans are the source point, and that language evolved towards North-East.

 

[Garrick]

Typical Balkan people have high Near Eastern ancestry. Like the Greeks and Bulgarians. Southern Europe is largely inhabited by people who migrated there from Anatolia and brought with them farming technology. You just have to look at haplogroup data for Balkan countries (and Southern Europe in general) to see what I mean. I am not saying that is a bad thing though.

We speak about local nuances. Balkan peoples are more similar than nationalists think. And Bosniacs. They have I2a more than others, and other haplogroups less than others, probably because Bosnia is a little more isolated from other areas, but Bosniacs are clearly Balkan population. Croats and Slovenes have more R1a and it is logical. But between Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats differences are not big. Serbs and Romanians are very similar, and it is logical. We are all connected. It is logical that the Serbs close to everyone as Serbia is in the center of the Balkans. And former Yugoslav peoples are very close. According to haplogroups Serbs and Bosniacs (and not only they) are brothers. Differences between Yugoslav peoples are not Y-DNA, all share similar chromosomes, not even geographical, differences are cultural, and we are all little guilty in former country because we did not know how to manage the cultural diversity.

But what was surprise for me when I studied results haplogroups? Geg Albanians are most different from the rest of the Balkan population. Maybe that population was the most isolated. Or some another, or third reason. You can see, Geg Albanians almost do not even have I2a. By this Geg Albanians are diametrically opposed Bosniacs. Geg Albanians have R1a, I1 and another haplogroups similarly to others, they have the peak of E1b1b1a2 (40-50%) and this makes them quite different from the Balkan nations, but absence I2a is mistery. I have no explanation.

 

[Marko94]

Why not. There are Serbs who are Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, Muslims, etc. Previously there were many Catholic Serbs. Today most Serbs are Orthodox, followed by Protestants. Tens of thousands of Serbs are Muslim (I think mainly in the capital). In Serbia there are a lot of atheists mostly the older generations. Most of them are Communists who remained in their belief. No Communists among the young.

I know that in Albania lived Serbs but today most of them were assimilated, especially in times of Enver Hoxha. But it is interesting some people from Albania who say that are Serbs of all faiths Orthodox, Catholic, Muslim, want to come to live in Serbia. I don't know whether they are of Serbian origin, or no, maybe you're right.

Don't is problem why not, but why in albania are catholic?
I think who are really albanian don't like go in Serbia or another country slavs, and if albanian wanted to find work, he go in germany, greece or italy.
More albanian don't like slavs (and all know that).

 

[FBS]

Don't is problem why not, but why in albania are catholic?
I think who are really albanian don't like go in Serbia or another country slavs, and if albanian wanted to find work, he go in germany, greece or italy.
More albanian don't like slavs (and all know that).

Your English is very broken.

Regarding Albanians and their (our) identity: In contrast to other ethnicities in the Balkans, Albanian ethnicity is not dependent on the religious pertinence. The majority of Albanians nowadays are Muslim, but there are Christian Orthodox and Catholics (traditionally) and we have many different Christian sects planting their "seeds" lately. My family was Christian Orthodox but we did not become something else when we converted, we were Albanians who decided to change the religion (even though have heavy Crypto-Christian behavior apart from the atheists).

So to sum it up, one can be Albanian no matter the religious adherence as long as you speak Albanian, feel Albanian and adhere to the Albanian customs and cuisine but you need to prove that you are Albanian by descent not legally of course; a bit like Scottish, you should know which clan (principality) you were part of.

Because of this Albanians are very prone to assimilation since there is no strong religious tie among them (us) as in other ethnicities around.

 

[Garrick]

Don't is problem why not, but why in albania are catholic?
I think who are really albanian don't like go in Serbia or another country slavs, and if albanian wanted to find work, he go in germany, greece or italy.
More albanian don't like slavs (and all know that).

I said that earlier were much more Serbian Catholics, especially in Adriatic region, for example:

Serbs Catholics in Dubrovnik between two world wars

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/Article.aspx?id=0352-57320824109N

But someone in this forum said that national division in Balkans is by religion. Practically today almost all Balkans south Slavic Catholics are Croats, south Slavic Muslims are Bosniacs and there are several south Slavic nations who are mostly Orthodox .

There are Serbian Catholics and today but less than Serbian Protestants. Most Serbs are Orthodox.

I don't know why in Albania there are Serbs Catholics. Throughout history in Balkans have been a lot of Serbs Catholics and maybe some of them live in Albania.

And for work in other countries, I don't see why Albanians do not go to Slavic countries. There are Albanians who work and live in Croatia and Slovenia. If these two and other Slavic countries have favorable labor conditions I see no reason why Albanians to avoid them. And Slavic people are people, there are good (and unfortunately bad) peoples in each population.

 

[Marko94]

Your English is very broken.

Regarding Albanians and their (our) identity: In contrast to other ethnicities in the Balkans, Albanian ethnicity is not dependent on the religious pertinence. The majority of Albanians nowadays are Muslim, but there are Christian Orthodox and Catholics (traditionally) and we have many different Christian sects planting their "seeds" lately. My family was Christian Orthodox but we did not become something else when we converted, we were Albanians who decided to change the religion (even though have heavy Crypto-Christian behavior apart from the atheists).

So to sum it up, one can be Albanian no matter the religious adherence as long as you speak Albanian, feel Albanian and adhere to the Albanian customs and cuisine but you need to prove that you are Albanian by descent not legally of course; a bit like Scottish, you should know which clan (principality) you were part of.

Because of this Albanians are very prone to assimilation since there is no strong religious tie among them (us) as in other ethnicities around.

According to analysts and World Organizations of the true majority is Catholic.In Italy there are nearly 500.000 Albanians, and of these 96% are Catholic (according to the census 2012).
You have answer to my post because u think i speak for "catholic albanian", but i speak for "catholic serbs".

For english say thx to "governament italian".

I said that earlier were much more Serbian Catholics, especially in Adriatic region, for example:

Serbs Catholics in Dubrovnik between two world wars

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/Article.aspx?id=0352-57320824109N

But someone in this forum said that national division in Balkans is by religion. Practically today almost all Balkans south Slavic Catholics are Croats, south Slavic Muslims are Bosniacs and there are several south Slavic nations who are mostly Orthodox .

There are Serbian Catholics and today but less than Serbian Protestants. Most Serbs are Orthodox.

I don't know why in Albania there are Serbs Catholics. Throughout history in Balkans have been a lot of Serbs Catholics and maybe some of them live in Albania.

And for work in other countries, I don't see why Albanians do not go to Slavic countries. There are Albanians who work and live in Croatia and Slovenia. If these two and other Slavic countries have favorable labor conditions I see no reason why Albanians to avoid them. And Slavic people are people, there are good (and unfortunately bad) peoples in each population.

I don't say "But someone in this forum said that national division in Balkans is by religion.".
The religion is a "key point" in the Balkans.However, let's stop here.
We'll talk about in another post on the religions in the Balkans.

 

[Sile]

According to analysts and World Organizations of the true majority is Catholic.In Italy there are nearly 500.000 Albanians, and of these 96% are Catholic (according to the census 2012).
You have answer to my post because u think i speak for "catholic albanian", but i speak for "catholic serbs".

For english say thx to "governament italian".


I don't say "But someone in this forum said that national division in Balkans is by religion.".
The religion is a "key point" in the Balkans.However, let's stop here.
We'll talk about in another post on the religions in the Balkans.

The bulk of these 500,000 where Tosks and they initially declared themselves as Greeks due to the fact that at the time of immigration there was no agreement between albanians and Italians. Many albanians where sent back if caught crossing the adriatic

 

[Garrick]

I don't say "But someone in this forum said that national division in Balkans is by religion.". The religion is a "key point" in the Balkans.However, let's stop here.
We'll talk about in another post on the religions in the Balkans.

I didn't say that you said. But the someone who is claimed was right. And you're right. In the Balkans religion is key point of division. Otherwise you can see that the Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats in the Y-DNA haplogroups are similar, much closer than people from different regions of Italy. There are families who changed religion more times over the last several hundred years. And some family members are Orthodox, some are Muslims and some are Catholics. Today they are Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats, three nations but same origin and Y-DNA.

I agree with you about religion we can talk more on another topic, but and in this topic it can not be avoided. And thanks about Serbs Catholics in Albania, I supposed that they lived in this region but I thought that they are assimilated.

 

[Garrick]

The primary haplogroup in Eastern European is OVERWHELMINGLY R1a. You cannot ignore that by lumping I2 with r1a as part of the "East European" package.

For I2a (M423) a lot of sources as region of origin notice Ukraine, not Balkans. For example:

http://ecbiz126.inmotionhosting.com/~danelu5/page2.html#haplogroupm423

According this author (Jack Danel), inhabitants of Lepen Whirl in Serbia (begining 9000 ago, peak about 7000 ago) were cariers of I2a.

Regueiro et al. (2012) claim that I2a in Serbs is about 9000 years ago. But Sparkley and I had debate about this estimate of authors. They based their claim on Zhivotovsky method, so it could be conflated by factor 3. If Sparkley is right today's I2a in Balkans (Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia etc.) is maximum about 3000 years old.