What do folks from the Ibr. Peninsula and the Brit. Isles think about haplogroup R1b?

Hypothetical R1b migration

  • It's from Eu, later migrated into the Fertile Crescent through the Pont-Casp steppe

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • From Eu, later moved to the Nile Del. and the F. Crescent through the eastern part of the Med coast.

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • It's from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe

    Votes: 5 22.7%
  • It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe

    Votes: 9 40.9%
  • It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent

    Votes: 4 18.2%

  • Total voters
    22

Goga

Banned
Messages
2,651
Reaction score
152
Points
0
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1a*
mtDNA haplogroup
HV1b2
Option 1: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Mesopotamia through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 2: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and later even into the Nile Delta and the Fertile Crescent (the Mesopotamia + Levant) through the eastern part of the Mediterranean coast. And then moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe from West Asia.

Option 3: It's from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe.

Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 5: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent and the Eastern part of the Mediterranean coast.


Since the majority of this haplogroup is around the Iberian Peninsula & and the British Isles and when we talk about R1b we mostly talk about the origin of these folks. I'm interested very much in what they think about themselves!


Also,

Is it possible that Phoenicians were actually R1b folks and didn't belong to J2 haplogroup?

Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?
 
I voted for option 1, but I'm originally from Kurdistan and not from Europe.
 
Option 1: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and even into the Mesopotamia through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 2: It's from the Iberian Peninsula or the Isles and after the ice age R1b migrated into other parts of Europe and even into the Nile Delta and the Fertile Crescent (the Mesopotamia + Levant) through the Eastern part of the Mediterranean coast. And later moved up to the Pontic-Caspian steppe from West Asia.

With the intention to not sound blunt, nobody seriously believes (since circa 2008) that R1b is native to Western Europe.

Option 3: It’s from the Pontic-Caspian steppe and later migrated into the Fertile Crescent and Europe.

Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

Option 5: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Fertile Crescent.

Since the majority of this haplogroup is in that area and when we talk about R1b we mostly talk about the origin of these folks. I'm interested very much in what they think about themselves and not what other people say.

Is it possible that Phoenicians were actually R1b folks and didn’t belong to J2 haplogroup?

Is it possible that the ancient Sumerians were R1b folks from the Pontic-Caspian steppe?

You are making a lot of blunt assumptions here, especially that somehow one ethnic group = one Haplogroup, which is something that just doesn't exist.

You seem otherwise completely unaware of the structure of R1b subclades and their distribution. For that purpose, I shall link you to Maciamo's tree of R1b, which will give you an overview:

R1b-tree.gif
 
With the intention to not sound blunt, nobody seriously believes (since circa 2008) that R1b is native to Western Europe.
I know, but it is still possible! I know that in Europe the ancient R1b subclade is not found yet.

And I'm familiar with your opinion and that of Maciamo. I want to know what other folks believe!

You are making a lot of blunt assumptions here, especially that somehow one ethnic group = one Haplogroup, which is something that just doesn't exist.
True, point taken!

You seem otherwise completely unaware of the structure of R1b subclades and their distribution. For that purpose, I shall link you to Maciamo's tree of R1b, which will give you an overview:
I'm aware of that phylogenetic tree! I don't dispute it, but how do I know that this tree is without mistakes?

Btw, It says that P25 (R1b1*) is from the Black Sea. But precisely where from? From the northern parts of the Caucasus near the Pontic-Caspian steppe and Russia/Ukraine, Southern Caucasus abetween Geroga - Anatolia or from the European part (Rumania) of the Black Sea?
 
Look what I've found. But how true is this, hmmmmmm????


"Most Britons descended from male farmers who left Iraq and Syria 10,000 years ago (and were seduced by the local hunter-gatherer women)

... Most Britons are direct descendants of farmers who left modern day Iraq and Syria 10,000 years ago, a new study has shown.After studying the DNA of more than 2,000 men, researchers say they have compelling evidence that four out of five white Europeans can trace their roots to the Near East...
"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...farmers-left-Iraq-Syria-10-000-years-ago.html
 
Look what I've found. But how true is this, hmmmmmm????

The Daily Mail is not exactly a reliable source on genetics, now is it? Also, I might remember you about the paper regarding ancient (Neolithic) DNA from Treilles in southern France, which showed an absence of R1b in an area where today ~70% of the population are R1b.

I really have to wonder why you keep bringing this up, anyways. With a complete absence of R1b from ALL Neolithic sites in Germany, France and Iberia, it is extremely unlikely that R1b arrived in Western Europe before the Copper Age.
 
I voted Option 4: It's from Anatolia / West Asia and later migrated into Europe through the Pontic-Caspian steppe.

That seems a good guess, although Option 5 is also reasonable.
 
Thanks for the answers guys.
 
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.
 
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.


The story of Driopes say that Druids came from minor Asia to Greece and from there moved west and North,
just seek where we Find the Druids 1500 years later, among Celtic speaking tribes,
 
Why should the story of Driopes be more accurate than the stories of Snorri Sturluson? What makes it escape the label of interesting old fairy tale?
 
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.

Epicenter of lactose tolerance in Europe better muches Corded Wear culture, therefore R1a people.

It also might be a similar case as with blondism. Being based in autosomal DNA it doesn't fallow Y HG anymore, and lactose tolerance stays mostly with best herding areas than with HG. Light skin stays in areas where is most advantages, and lactose tolerance stays in areas where it is more advantages for population. Somehow these two areas match.

Interesting is that, when you look at the lactose map, you will see that coastal areas are more lactose intolerant than the rest. Probably extra calories from sea food was always making up for it, and drinking milk wasn't as beneficial there as in deeper continent.



Another worth attention fact is that R1a people were milk drinkers but not beef eaters. This is common from Poland to India. All the beef they ate were the young bulls. Cows were always left to give milk for dairy products till they died.

R1b is more correlated with beef eaters. I'm not sure about wester Europe, but in America (mainly based on western europe culture) beef is the king of meats), stakes, burgers, sausages, etc all beef.

R1a in eastern europe is more pork oriented, poultry, eggs, rye and lots of dairy, cabbage. This is as true today, as was 3,000 years ago. Some of it wasn't brought in by R1a but assimilated from locals, probably I people.
 
Epicenter of lactose tolerance in Europe better muches Corded Wear culture, therefore R1a people.

I think the Jean Manco theory (but you can check it out at her website) suggests that Corded Ware was a mixed haplogroup culture, with R1a initially dominant, but R1b present as a sort of junior partner and then "taking off". She associates lactose tolerance with incoming R1b's due to their milking economy. LT then spread out more. You can debate her on Dna-forums if you like.P.S. In other words, R1a got LT from R1b, and R1b got the IE speech from R1a.
 
Last edited:
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.

I think this is an intriguing possibility that I'm not ready to discount. R1b-L11 seems to me to obviously be a post-Neolithic expansion on Central and Western Europe, postdating the initial Corded Ware expansion. It's not impossible to imagine some of the Corded Ware spillover that expanded being an small R1b minority that got lucky. The trick, I think, will be to get a better understanding of pre-L11 R1b subclades. Not so much R1b-ht35, as that's actually not the closest, but rather ones like R1b L11- L51+. A difficulty is that modern L11- L51+ doesn't have an obvious match with Corded Ware, with samples in Italy, Croatia, Turkey, Yemen... samples from Poland I suppose could be evidence... but there's nothing in Ukraine or Russia discovered so far. I think that leaves things ambiguous.
 
Concerning R1B. What do you fellows think of Jean Manco's theory? I don't know all the details, but part of it seems to suggest that R1b folk brought lactose tolerance to Europe from Anatolia, and that their pathway was via the Dardanelles and then northward following the Black Sea coast (that's an option not mentioned by Goga), where they joined the Trypilians, and then participated in the westward movement of the IE's, acquiring the language in the process. Some of their groups, settled in Central Europe blossomed forth extremely successfully in the 3rd millenium BCE, "giving birth" to, among others, P-312 and U-106.
Thanks, very interesting view of point if you believe that R1b is from (West) Anatolia! This would explain some non-West European R1b in Greece.
 
I have moved the discussion about the Kurdish language into a separate thread in linguistics.

It can be found here.
 
Epicenter of lactose tolerance in Europe better muches Corded Wear culture, therefore R1a people . . .

It seems to me lactase persistence in its European incarnation as the T-13910 allele is much more frequent in R1b-dominated regions of Europe than it is in R1a-dominated regions.

A recent study of the Basques found the sample population about 93% lactase persistent.

Besides that, interestingly, the Fulani of Africa, who have a high frequency of R1b-V88, also carry the European version of lactase persistence at a fairly high frequency: http://www.malariajournal.com/content/10/1/9.

No R1a there, as far as I know.
 
It seems to me lactase persistence in its European incarnation as the T-13910 allele is much more frequent in R1b-dominated regions of Europe than it is in R1a-dominated regions.

I find that graphics are a big help to me in following these discussions. Here is the best one that I have regarding lactase persistence. It looks to me that it is most prevalent in the R1b regions too. It's small, but if you click it you can see it better.

lactose.jpg
 
It is known that many people have 5-7 years after the body stops producing the enzyme lactase that breaks down lactose in the small intestine. However, after about 6-9 thousand years ago, there was tolerance to lactose gene, which gave the carriers of this gene advantages in the struggle for survival and allowed to spread widely.

I believe that the emergence of lactose tolerance gene was associated with the domestication of horses, and start eating fermented mare's milk.

The composition of mare's milk is significantly different from the composition of milk cows and other animals. It contains a 2-fold less protein, fat and minerals, almost 1.5 times more lactose than cow's. The quantity and composition of proteins and lactose content of mare's milk (6.4%) is close to the female (6,6-7,0%).

Recent discoveries on Botai culture suggest that Botai culture settlements in the Akmola Province of Kazakhstan are the location of the earliest domestication of the horse.

According to others first domesticated the horse in modern Bashkortostan representatives Agidelevskaya culture.

I believe that the first domesticated horses 7-9 thousand years ago, representatives of haplogroup R1b, who lived in the Southern Urals and adjacent plains. Domestication of the horse led to the emergence of lactose tolerance gene. As well as possible carriers of R1b spread around the world, to conquer Europe.



 
I find that graphics are a big help to me in following these discussions. Here is the best one that I have regarding lactase persistence. It looks to me that it is most prevalent in the R1b regions too. It's small, but if you click it you can see it better.

View attachment 5434

I would like to point out that there is another interpretation to this, specifically that you have a massive founder effect in both Western Europe and Scandinavia. To pick two examples: central and southern Italy both have fairly high levels of R1b yet very low levels of lactase persistence, and conversely much of Scandinavia has relatively lower levels of R1b but a much higher level of lactase persistence.
 

This thread has been viewed 34232 times.

Back
Top