Veneti / Venedi / Wends (OFFTOPIC Y-DNA Haplogroups R1b-U152/S28)

[Diurpaneus]

Regarding the connection between Sclavenes and Veneti, Curta\'s conclusion is breathtaking even if applied only to the northern Veneti: »Archaeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs.« (p. 13)

Dublin,

Regarding Florin Curta's "The Making of The Slavs" you took that out of context.Besides his thoughts, he analyzes Byzantines way of thinking.

According to him ,Slavs are the product of the Avar Khaganate.


http://florida.academia.edu/FlorinCu...ned_historian_



He writes about the efforts(starting with Safarik) to make Venedi ancient Slavs, by adjusting historical records with "archaeology".But it is NOT his opinion,he explains how the autohtonists did it.
And everyone knows ,Slav is a MIDDLE AGES notion.


Together with language, the search for a respectable antiquity for the history of the Slavs showed two principal thrusts: one relied on the interpretation of the historical sources as closely as possible to the linguistic archaeological argument; the other located the Slavic homeland in the epicenter of the modern distribution of Slavic languages. The former began with the affirmation of trust worthiness for Jordanes’ account of the Slavic Venethi, an approach which ultimately led to the claim of Tacitus’,Pliny’s, and Ptolemy’s Venedi for the history of the Slavs. The cornerstone of this theory is Safarik’s reading of Jordanes as an accurate description of a contemporary ethnic configuration. Safarik’s interpretation is still widely accepted, despite considerable revision, in the last few decades, of traditional views of Jordanes and his Getica. The explanation of this extraordinary continuity is neither ignorance, nor language barriers.Jordanes’ Venethi have become the key argument in all constructions of the Slavic past primarily based on linguistic arguments. Like Safarik, many would show condescension for Tacitus’ “mistake” of listing Venethi among groups living in Germania, but would never doubt that Jordanes’ account is genuine. Archaeological research has already provided an enormous amount of evidence in support of the idea that the Venethi were Slavs. To accept this, however, involves more than a new interpretation of Getica. Jordanes built his image of the Slavs on the basis of earlier accounts and maps, without any concern for accurate description.It also means to give up evolutionary models created for explaining how the early Slavic culture derived from earlier archaeological cultures identified in the area in which Tacitus, Pliny, and Ptolemy apparently set their Venedi.A considerable amount of intellectual energy was invested in this direction between the two world wars and after 1945, and to question the theoretical premises of this approach is often perceived as denying its utility or, worse, as a bluntly revisionist coup. It is not without interest that claims that the Slavic ethnicity is a sixth-century phenomenon were met with the reaffirmation of Sedov’s theory of Slavic culture originating from the Przeworsk culture, which is often identified with the Venethi.pg.13

[Taranis]

I'd like to say something regarding the Vistula Veneti (or Venedi):

On Tacitus' description of the "Germanic" tribes: he does not give actual localizations, and there is no reason to assume that the Veneti actually lived in Germania: Tacitus mentions the Veneti in one group with the Peucini and the Fenni. The former can be placed in the area of modern-day Moldova. Likewise, Ptolemy places the "Finni" as he calls them in European Sarmatia.

Regarding the Przeworsk Culture, it should be pointed out that it is pretty impossible that they were Slavic. For the greater part, the Przeworks Culture was contemporary to the Roman period, and indeed the Romans recorded the area. The Przeworsk Culture was located west of the Vistula river, in an area that the Romans regarded as part of Germania (the Vistula was for Graeco-/Roman authors, at least from the 2nd century AD onward, the border between Germania and Sarmatia). The tribes living in this area were decisively not Slavic, but Germanic instead: the main tribe in the area were the Burgundians. Ptolemy places the Venedi into European Sarmatia, at the shore of the Baltic Sea, in an area that east of the Gdansk Bay, an area that is later inhabited by Baltic tribes (most notably, the Prussians).

I have two interpretations here: either that Venedi were a Baltic people, or that the term "Venedi" was a (presumably Germanic?) exonym and covered more than one ethnic group regardless of their ethnic identity. If the latter is taken into account, then some of the Venedi living further inland in Sarmatia may have been Proto-Slavic tribes, rather than Baltic ones. Additionally, this may indeed account for some continuity (even if only as an exonym) between the "Venedi" and the much later "Wends" (West Slavic peoples) living in what today is eastern Germany.

What might be added is, in my opinion the focus on the Venedi in search for the Proto-Slavs may be a dead end, and alternatively, it might be more interesting to look for them amongst the tribes that Ptolemy locates in the inland of European Sarmatia.

[zanipolo]

I'd like to say something regarding the Vistula Veneti (or Venedi):

On Tacitus' description of the "Germanic" tribes: he does not give actual localizations, and there is no reason to assume that the Veneti actually lived in Germania: Tacitus mentions the Veneti in one group with the Peucini and the Fenni. The former can be placed in the area of modern-day Moldova. Likewise, Ptolemy places the "Finni" as he calls them in European Sarmatia.

Regarding the Przeworsk Culture, it should be pointed out that it is pretty impossible that they were Slavic. For the greater part, the Przeworks Culture was contemporary to the Roman period, and indeed the Romans recorded the area. The Przeworsk Culture was located west of the Vistula river, in an area that the Romans regarded as part of Germania (the Vistula was for Graeco-/Roman authors, at least from the 2nd century AD onward, the border between Germania and Sarmatia). The tribes living in this area were decisively not Slavic, but Germanic instead: the main tribe in the area were the Burgundians. Ptolemy places the Venedi into European Sarmatia, at the shore of the Baltic Sea, in an area that east of the Gdansk Bay, an area that is later inhabited by Baltic tribes (most notably, the Prussians).

I have two interpretations here: either that Venedi were a Baltic people, or that the term "Venedi" was a (presumably Germanic?) exonym and covered more than one ethnic group regardless of their ethnic identity. If the latter is taken into account, then some of the Venedi living further inland in Sarmatia may have been Proto-Slavic tribes, rather than Baltic ones. Additionally, this may indeed account for some continuity (even if only as an exonym) between the "Venedi" and the much later "Wends" (West Slavic peoples) living in what today is eastern Germany.

What might be added is, in my opinion the focus on the Venedi in search for the Proto-Slavs may be a dead end, and alternatively, it might be more interesting to look for them amongst the tribes that Ptolemy locates in the inland of European Sarmatia.

just some info
i sent this once before
http://www.drevnosti.org/the-slavic-antiquities/47-articles/79-hiding-behind-a-piece-of-tapestry-jordanes-and-the-slavic-venethi?format=pdf

Since 1990 to present day - poles and germans have been disputing the
Lusatian Culture (Eastern Pomerania) in which the lands of Pomeralia (danzig bay) are the lands of the venedi. This is east of the modern vistula river. The gepids ( a gothic tribe that remained on the continent while the other gothic tribes went to sweden , then gotland and then back to the vistula over time ) where south of the venedi. The Pomeranian culture evolved from the Lusatian culture east of the Parseta river and in Pomerelia. This culture is considered to mark the (proto-)Germanic-Baltic frontier. A linguistic classification between Baltic andGermanic. Earlier, the Pomeranian culture was associated with the Bastarnae.

Jan M Piskorski, Pommern im Wandel der Zeit, 1999,


In the 2004 book- The Spring of the goths, it states clearly that the goths ( via archeology) where living in the bronze age on the vistula and east pommerania areas. the Germanic people proper, the rugiians arrived via norway. Basically the first germanics

http://www.muzarp.poznan.pl/archweb/gazociag/title5.htm

.............................
Pytheas was 200 years before tacticus and he ststed goths on the vistula delta
According to The Natural History" by Pliny the Elder:

Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the Ocean called Mentonomon, their territory extending a distance of six thousand stadia; that, at one day's sail from this territory, is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring, it being an excretion of the sea in a concrete form; as, also, that the inhabitants use this amber by way of fuel, and sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

he states
Elattova de eunh vemetai, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

translated
Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes. Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.

Could it be the venedi of the vistula was a colony originallly from the Latvian lands?


BOLD text = copied from internet

EDIT - The large island of Osel off the latvian coast was known to be gothic and later viking, then disputed between the danes and swedes until renaissance times.

Some modern books have a tribe called Winils ( venedi) arriving on the vistula.
Johannes Micraelius reproduces a map showing the area between
Rostock and Danzig south to Glogow. The map is filled with a wealth of towns
and tribal names. The Oder bears the name "Viadrus: Suevus" and the title of
the map, written over the expanse of the Pomeranian Bay, is "Vandalia Teutonica
et Gothonica nunc Pomerania" - a sure indication that Pomerania had also been
known as Vandalia, or the country of the Vandals. The same applies to the ma-p
produced by Abraham Ortelius in 1584. Its title runs "Rugiae, Usedeomiae et
julinae, Wandalicarum insularum vera descriptio".

To this day, some scholars "marry" the vandals and venedi as the same tribe.
recent book ( last 5 years) called the Vends of Scandinanvia is still being disputed.

[mihaitzateo]

Gothica of Jordanes I do not how reliable it is.
Take for example the tribes of Old Prussians where Jordanes tell something about those in Gothica?

[Taranis]

Gothica of Jordanes I do not how reliable it is.
Take for example the tribes of Old Prussians where Jordanes tell something about those in Gothica?

My opinion is that Jordanes is not particularly reliable, because his early history of the Goths is interwoven with bits from Greek mythology, amongst other, utterly implausible statements, some which may be based on a confusion between the Getae and the Goths. Also to my knowledge, the (old) Prussians are not mentioned in any of the old sources, but in his Geography, Ptolemy mentions two other Baltic tribes, namely the Galindians and the Sudovians.

[zanipolo]

these marker from Ftdna seem to be the only markers that fir the venedi and aestii ( or most likely baltic-prussians)

6.A1. Baltic (Type "Ky"/part of "NEA")
M417+, Z283+, Z280+, Z92+
R1a1a1g2d

6.A2. Baltic (Types "Kt", "Ku"/part of "NEA")
M417+, Z283+, Z280+, Z92+
R1a1a1g2d

[piero]

Zanipolo, this map above about R1a1a1g2d subclade is really very interesting. In my book La dea veneta - Dal Baltico alla Bretagna - CIERRE, sorry in Italian language, there is a similar map I did before this one. My map is concerning Veneti / Wends / Venedy migrations along Amber ways (I mean Ponto-baltic way and East Alps way) on historical and archaeological basis.
In opinion of academic language professors in Venice, Ca' Foscari University, there are many peoples in Europe with a venetic name simply because of the i.e. root *wen and they think that there are NOT ethnic or cultural links between all this population sharing the name. I'm not of the same opinion and I found the same "finger prints" on ceramic vessels, both in Adriatic Veneti and in Lusatian culture (Poland or Ukraine). Archaeologists argue that "finger print" are everywhere in cultures, so I'm looking for a genetic prove about European Venetic names link. The big problem for Veneti haplogroups is that ancient Veneti burn the dead in the fire of pyre so is impossible to have DNA samples because high temperature destroys DNA.

[zanipolo]

Zanipolo, this map above about R1a1a1g2d subclade is really very interesting. In my book La dea veneta - Dal Baltico alla Bretagna - CIERRE, sorry in Italian language, there is a similar map I did before this one. My map is concerning Veneti / Wends / Venedy migrations along Amber ways (I mean Ponto-baltic way and East Alps way) on historical and archaeological basis.
In opinion of academic language professors in Venice, Ca' Foscari University, there are many peoples in Europe with a venetic name simply because of the i.e. root *wen and they think that there are NOT ethnic or cultural links between all this population sharing the name. I'm not of the same opinion and I found the same "finger prints" on ceramic vessels, both in Adriatic Veneti and in Lusatian culture (Poland or Ukraine). Archaeologists argue that "finger print" are everywhere in cultures, so I'm looking for a genetic prove about European Venetic names link. The big problem for Veneti haplogroups is that ancient Veneti burn the dead in the fire of pyre so is impossible to have DNA samples because high temperature destroys DNA.

hi Piero

I must get your book, i can cope with italian language, better if it was in venetian!!
Is the book exclusively based on venet(d)i between the baltic and britain?

Which ancient veneti burned their dead?, because IIRC Elise Perego has some skeltons found with the different types of amber in the veneto and friuli. The amber came from both the baltic and jutland regions.
Maybe the skeltons where the aboriginal eugenai people of the area who became veneti in the late bronze age.
http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/...f_the_evidence

Magic and Ritual in Iron Age Veneto, Italy Elisa Perego



Btw , did you write the article of the raetia being linked with the veneti.....something along the likes of the river in innsbruck being called SILL and the river being called SIL (in venetian) in the veneto plains.

In regards to R1a1a1g2d , some ydna sites call it westBaltic-prussianI feel that if their is a link between the 3 veneti ( adriatic, brittany, baltic ) then they must be associated with the Lusatian culture, But I feel only the baltic veneti have this

[piero]

Which ancient veneti burned their dead?

It was the usual burial practise by ancient veneti across bronze age to iron age, in the common culture of Urnfields.

then they must be associated with the Lusatian culture

They say also typical for Lusatian culture was R1a1a7; it seems to be not a lot diffuse this haplogroups in Adriatic Veneto, but I don't know exactly, I have no access to subclades tables.

Elisa Perego

This archaeologist is doing a great work to understand and describe the cult of ancient veneti, I would like to keep contact with she if possible.

[LeBrok]

The term "Vandali" may be related with the English term "to wander". It should be pointed out that the difference between "wand-" and "wend-" is a big one, especially because both words occur in the Germanic context, and because the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is clearly applied as an exonym (on Baltic peoples in Antiquity, on West Slavs in the Medieval Ages).

I mean, it's really tempting to assume a connection when you see similar sounding names, there's no point in denying that, but, how can you prove there's a connection?

It just occurred to me that there is polish word "wędrować", closest english spelling would be "wendrowach" the root is "wendr", and means "to walk long distance, to wander". I wasn't able to find the same word in any other slavic languages (I might need some help), so it looks like it is of germanic origin, maybe IE.
I don't think Veneti(di) has anything to do with name Wends.

Also, we know who is called Wends in current times, but it probably never will be known who was called Wends first.
Here is how it went in more recent history with name "Lah" coined by Ukrainians for Poles. Since Roman Empire people in (current land) Ukraine always bordered with Vlah communities in the west (Moldavia). By 15 hundreds Moldavia became a province of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poles became dominant in West Ukraine for 3 centuries and gradually became Lahi (Lahs). We should mentioned that Poles were mostly Roman Catholics, and Ukrainians were Orthodox. All Slavs call Italians Vlahs. From Ukrainian perspective, Poles might have became Vlahi (Lahi) too, regarding religious affiliation.
Looks like the exonimes are not very stable, but rather transferable.

So who knows how it went with name Wends? They could have been Celts at the beginning and Slavs at the end.

[MOESAN]

It just occurred to me that there is polish word "wędrować", closest english spelling would be "wendrowach" the root is "wendr", and means "to walk long distance, to wander". I wasn't able to find the same word in any other slavic languages (I might need some help), so it looks like it is of germanic origin, maybe IE.
I don't think Veneti(di) has anything to do with name Wends.

Also, we know who is called Wends in current times, but it probably never will be known who was called Wends first.
Here is how it went in more recent history with name "Lah" coined by Ukrainians for Poles. Since Roman Empire people in (current land) Ukraine always bordered with Vlah communities in the west (Moldavia). By 15 hundreds Moldavia became a province of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poles became dominant in West Ukraine for 3 centuries and gradually became Lahi (Lahs). We should mentioned that Poles were mostly Roman Catholics, and Ukrainians were Orthodox. All Slavs call Italians Vlahs. From Ukrainian perspective, Poles might have became Vlahi (Lahi) too, regarding religious affiliation.
Looks like the exonimes are not very stable, but rather transferable.

So who knows how it went with name Wends? They could have been Celts at the beginning and Slavs at the end.

reasonnable
but an ununderstandable ancient foreign name can be given a phonetically close false "correspondant" in the language of a neighbouring people: venet->>wend- >> polish wendr- is finally possible (analogy error) - it occurred more than a time!
I red no long ago (Sergent? mo remembrance) that Poland Veneti's language was finally akin to the N-E italian Veneti language, a kind of border-line italic (I have no competence to judge it)
for archeology and some Y-DNA (R-U152) I think to the Urnfields Culture that came from Central Europe into S-W and W Poland just before or at the very beginning the Iron Age and that appears linked in some aspects to Eastern Italic people and Celts - if the linguistic link is genuine, I see no link between first Wends and Baltic or Slavic people -

[zanipolo]

The recent announcement made that the venedi/veneti where R1a1g M458+ L1029+, cannot be justified due to the fact that the marker runs from Finland, livonia, northern poland, lithuania, slovakia, austria, slovenia, northern italy, latvia and sweden on the claim that the slovenia language is firstly west-slavic and not south-slavic and also that the Kushubian language is slovenian and also spoken the area of the old venedi (poland)

R.G.A. de Bray comments in Guide to the South Slavonic Languages:13 "Perhaps the most interesting of the other [Slovenian] dialects is that of Carinthia... which has certain features such as the preservation, in certain regions, of the groups - tl, -dl-, and the ending -e for adjectives in the neut. sing., eg dobre mleko (= good milk) [cf. Czech), which seem to point to its being a transition stage to, West Slav." Moreover, Šavli is correct when he affirms: "Beside the lexical relationship with the Baltic languages, Slovene exhibits still other Proto-Slavic characteristics; the dual, as with the Wends in Lusatian; the supine, as with the Czechs; the genitive in the negative form as found in the Balto-Slavic group. The large number of dialects, forty-six altogether, reveals the [sic] great age of the Slovene language, as is not the case with any other Slavic language . . . In Slovene, all the reflections of the ancient Proto-Slavic have been preserved." 14

To fathom the implications of only one of these "reflections," the metathesis of /-tl/ and /-dl/, let the reader but pause to consider Šavli's statement15: "The West Slavic languages in this region [Kashubian Zone] have preserved certain ancient peculiarities; eg., the characteristic Proto-Slavic consonant pair ti and dl. The same consonant pair is retained in the northwest Russian dialect of Pskov; i.e., in the region of the 'Slovieni' ... "Actually, in point of fact, only Kashubian--often misclassified as a Polish dialect--preserves without metathesis the Proto-Slavic /-tl-/ and /-dl-/, as de Bray observes in his Guide to the West Slavonic Language,16 "... Kashubian can be considered a transition to the old dialects of the now Germanized Slavs on the left bank of the lower Oder. With them it affords some examples of Slavonic words without the metathesis of liquids ... " For the other West Slavic languages, de Bray confirms: " ... Czech: The Slavonic metathesis of liquids. Here Czech has the same forms as South Slav17 ... Slovak: The Slavonic metathesis of liquids. Slovak, like Czech, has the same forms and vowels as the South Slav languages18 ... Lusatian, like Polish has true West Slav forms with vowels ... after the liquids [metathesis]

Bor's chapter, "Similarity of the Slovene, Latvian, and Breton Words."5 The reviewer has also carried out the homework for this independently,6 inducing him to inevitable concurrence with Bor's results. The significance of Bor's discovery of a layer of Slavic loanwords in Breton cannot bc overstated. Their presence clarifies the comments of Julius Caesar's De Bello Gallico. "The Veneti are by far the strongest tribe on this coast .. They possess the most powerful fleet with which they sail as far as Britain. . ."7 Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Ptolemy, and Casius Dio also refer to the Veneti in Gaul (Armorica). Bor's recovery of these Slavic lexical loans in Breton necessitates our reexamination of certain aspects of universally accepted academic theory as exemplified by the following definition: VENETI ... A Celtic people in the northwest of Gallia Celtica ... In the winter of 57 B.C., they took up arms against the Romans, and in 56 were decisively defeated in a naval engagement."8 Bor has clearly established the existence of Slavic loans in Breton and this fact strongly suggests that prior to the arrival in Armorica of the Brythonic (Insular P-Celtic) speaking refugees fleeing the Saxon invasions of South Britain



The claim also states that the word veneti in italy only appeared in Roman times.

We find the earliest documented occurrence of the name "Veneti" in the accounts of the sack of Rome by the Celts who were forced to retreat when the Veneti broke through into their territory. During the Second Punic War, the Veneti came under the political influence of Rome, although they retained complete autonomy in internal affairs until 89 B.C.E. Thereafter, Gnaeus Pompeius Strabo conferred the lus Latinum upon them as a part of Cisalpine Gaul. Together with Istria, Augustus brought them into the tenth region of Italy with Aquileia as capital. Aquileia suffered attacks and destruction by the Alamanni, the Franks, and the Juthungi in 286 C.E., by the Goths under Alaric early in the fifth century, and by Attila in 452 C.E. Under Theodoric the Great, 493-526 C.E., the Veneti prospered, but in 568 C.E. found themselves again occupied, this time under the Lombards


The linguistic evidence is that venetic language falls under 2 spheres, 1 - a thaco-illyrian one and later a latin one
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope...guage_tree.htm



The conclusion to what I am saying is that for slovenian historians to justify that they are venetic people and venetic is west-slavic language is to convince the world that slovenian is an ancient tongue from the west-slavic language tree. This would mean that the home of the veneti was indeed the baltic coast and later migrated to italy and brittany.
To me Archeology says a different story

[Taranis]

Before I get back and reply to the previous posts (sorry), I'm about to derail this topic a little (but not wholly) talking about the origin of the Slavs, since this is a related topic that consistently pops up:

- the general views linguistics holds is that the Slavs had linguistic unity until the Migration Period. That is, they spoke with a common Proto-Slavic language.


- I the same context, we must assume that during this Proto-Slavic phase (which actually lasted multiple centuries), the Proto-Slavs had contact with speakers of Iranic languages (likely the Scythians/Sarmatians at the western edge of the Pontic-Caspian steppe in what is today the south of Ukraine), as well as with speakers of Proto-Germanic (first) and East Germanic (later). The latter almost certainly corresponds to a contact with the historically known Goths.

- The early Slavs very probably were landlocked (not adjacent to the Baltic Sea, which in my opinion is one of the most forceful arguments against the Veneti being Proto-Slavic).

- From the data we get from ancient Greek/Roman sources we can be pretty certain that the early Slavs did not live in Central Europe or the Balkans.

- There's also general agreement that the Proto-Slavs lived in the forest zone, and NOT in the steppe:



In terms of location, in my opinion the best archaeological culture as a candidate for the Proto-Slavs (early Proto-Slavs, anyways) is the Milograd Culture (~7th century BC to ~3rd century BC):



Note that this matches the location at the eastern edge of the forest zone: this would have facilitated an easy contact with the Scythians/Sarmatians. The archaeological successor of the Milograd Culture, the Zarubintsy Culture, has archaeological ties towards the west (in particular with the Przeworsk Culture) may represent the first stage of contact with Proto-Germanic tribes.

[LeBrok]

reasonnable
but an ununderstandable ancient foreign name can be given a phonetically close false "correspondant" in the language of a neighbouring people: venet->>wend- >> polish wendr- is finally possible (analogy error) - it occurred more than a time!
I red no long ago (Sergent? mo remembrance) that Poland Veneti's language was finally akin to the N-E italian Veneti language, a kind of border-line italic (I have no competence to judge it)
for archeology and some Y-DNA (R-U152) I think to the Urnfields Culture that came from Central Europe into S-W and W Poland just before or at the very beginning the Iron Age and that appears linked in some aspects to Eastern Italic people and Celts - if the linguistic link is genuine, I see no link between first Wends and Baltic or Slavic people -

I'm sympathetic with an idea that Venedi were most likely of Celtic origin, or even Italic. We have some Celtic toponims and town names in Poland, plus it would explain big Roman speaking population around this area and in Balkans, vlahs. My understanding is that Italics or Celtics would switch to Latin faster, unlike others, Greeks and Albanians.
Even if Celts/Venedi showed up in early Iron age around Vistula, they surely got germanized at beginning of first millennium AD, by east Germans then by Goths, and name Venedi is never mentioned again. There is a lack of any record of Venedi tribe movement at time of germanic migration west around 500CE
If somehow they stayed in the area they would have gotten slavonized, as anything was, from Volga to Elbe rivers, after Slavic expansion.
As I mentioned before, there is some record of Celtic presence around Vistula region, and Venedi would fulfil this purpose very well.

(Sergent? mo remembrance) that Poland Veneti's language was finally akin to the N-E italian Veneti language, a kind of border-line italic (I have no competence to judge it)

I don't think Vistula Venedi left anything written to come to this conclusion. I guess if Venedi were talking in any of Italics, that would be quickly recognized by Roman travelers, traders, historians or generals who came in contact with them.

[zanipolo]

first off, which is poland Venedi language akin to North east italy veneti ?

next - In Feb 2012 isogg released a new marker for thr R1a1a group , this was L1029. The polish historians and others claim that this marker along with M-458 is the venedi marker ( others say Lugii tribe marker) . The current discussion is that the venedi marker is R1a M458+ L1029+ and a negative L206 ( slavic marker)

the site below has indicated the people this marker matches for all of europe
http://www.semargl.me/ru/dna/ydna/item-snp/1234/

the SNP indicating no L206 or a neagtive L206 show this as non-slavic . Apparantly you cannot have a postive L1029 and a postive L206

The marker first appeared around 700BC which matches the lusitan culture

ISOGG call it R1a1a1g1c L1029

[Yetos]

My opinion is that Jordanes is not particularly reliable, because his early history of the Goths is interwoven with bits from Greek mythology, amongst other, utterly implausible statements, some which may be based on a confusion between the Getae and the Goths. Also to my knowledge, the (old) Prussians are not mentioned in any of the old sources, but in his Geography, Ptolemy mentions two other Baltic tribes, namely the Galindians and the Sudovians.

I agree about Jordanes
to my personal view Jordanes uses imagination to connect some geographical and historical data, there are parts that are reliable and parts that are not.
Jordanes alone is not a good base for search , but if you compare Jordanes with others then you can certify sources.

Now about Getae or Gets with Goths
Historically we have connection from Strabo
Strabo names Getae tribes like Βησιοι (Visi) with Balkans wich we all know that later were the Visigoths (Visigetaes?)
we know that in Roman times times, Germanic or para-germanic speaking tribes are mention to live in the North-East parts of Balkans even to East Europe.
Even in Duridanov's work, no matter he wants to connect the Thracian with modern Slavic, the vocabulary connection is obviously a link among minor asian languages and Germanic and part of it exist 'mutated' in modern Greek (Germanic or para-Germanic words that exist in Modern Greek is unexplained historically)
Personally I believe that Getae are the Fathers of the Goths which moved West as Visi Ostro (Austr-Gets or Ostria-Gets) and become fully Germanized much later.
Getae leave their lands either due to Roman empire decline, either as Strong armies or mercenairies, either due to the pressure of the incoming Hun-Turkic-Avar population in East-Central Europe.


it is obvious historically, (might even in genetics) that in decline of Roman empire Germanic or para-Germanic or Thracian tribes moved West which later assimilated and today most of them exist with other names or even as other ethnicities (Visigoths in Spain and Vandals in Tynesia)

[MOESAN]

I don't think Vistula Venedi left anything written to come to this conclusion. I guess if Venedi were talking in any of Italics, that would be quickly recognized by Roman travelers, traders, historians or generals who came in contact with them.[/QUOTE]

I confess I did not check the avalaiblity of this affirmation I have in mind - maybe it was as sometimes an attempt to link toponymy to a given culture and a time, that can be a sport and not too well supported by reality - I remember somones found (or believed have found) links between "lusacian" rivers names and illyrian language... perhaps it is dead science nowaday ??? as other conclusion of the 30's 50's -
Sergent seams saying old venetian (veneti) and northern languages of Croatia wasakin to a kind of italic- Iam not sure he said it was a middle position language between italic and illyrian, but I have no mean to verify it -

[MOESAN]

first off, which is poland Venedi language akin to North east italy veneti ?

next - In Feb 2012 isogg released a new marker for thr R1a1a group , this was L1029. The polish historians and others claim that this marker along with M-458 is the venedi marker ( others say Lugii tribe marker) . The current discussion is that the venedi marker is R1a M458+ L1029+ and a negative L206 ( slavic marker)

the site below has indicated the people this marker matches for all of europe
http://www.semargl.me/ru/dna/ydna/item-snp/1234/

the SNP indicating no L206 or a neagtive L206 show this as non-slavic . Apparantly you cannot have a postive L1029 and a postive L206

The marker first appeared around 700BC which matches the lusitan culture

ISOGG call it R1a1a1g1c L1029

I do not see any clear link between Lusacian and the Y-R1a-1029+ that seams by the way more common than the "slavic" 1029- in this research / this 1029+ seams to me very broadly spred in Europe (Scandinavia, Gemany, Baltic and North-Slavic region, Italy even ...
nothing is opposed to its presence in and during Lusacian Culture: this last was at the fringes of more than an ethny according to someones, and if the first impulses seam came from Central Europe, with a previous non-incineration BUT inhumation phase (under tumuli) the presence of an autochtonous population is very possible - I am not sure at all the Y-R1a was the intrusive and dynamic element, rather a substrate one - so this SNP echoes some local 'corded' descendants people to me (effectively possible ancestors of baltic speaking future peoples -
the problem of veneti/Venedi/Wend reality is still there - were they for the most autochtones descendants or for the most celtic or italic centum I-E intrusive descendants - are the italy Veneti came from Baltis shores or Baltic Veneti came from Italy (I prefer saying: from a future Pannonia-N-Croatia region? I have not already the answer.

[MOESAN]

[QUOTE=zanipolo;396158]

Bor's chapter, "Similarity of the Slovene, Latvian, and Breton Words."5 The reviewer has also carried out the homework for this independently,6 inducing him to inevitable concurrence with Bor's results. The significance of Bor's discovery of a layer of Slavic loanwords in Breton cannot bc overstated. Their presence clarifies the comments of Julius Caesar's De Bello Gallico. "The Veneti are by far the strongest tribe on this coast .. They possess the most powerful fleet with which they sail as far as Britain. . ."7 Pliny the Elder, Strabo, Ptolemy, and Casius Dio also refer to the Veneti in Gaul (Armorica). Bor's recovery of these Slavic lexical loans in Breton necessitates our reexamination of certain aspects of universally accepted academic theory as exemplified by the following definition: VENETI ... A Celtic people in the northwest of Gallia Celtica ... In the winter of 57 B.C., they took up arms against the Romans, and in 56 were decisively defeated in a naval engagement."8 Bor has clearly established the existence of Slavic loans in Breton and this fact strongly suggests that prior to the arrival in Armorica of the Brythonic (Insular P-Celtic) speaking refugees fleeing the Saxon invasions of South Britain


I agree with you that these affirmations are very amazing and that some scholars are governed by curious aims -
on another way, I am breton speaker and I would be very glad to see the arguments in favor of breton loans to slavic or baltic languages - it is to say: BRETON words nEVER found in irish gaelic or in welsh AND SHOWING A BALTIC OR SLAVIC STREAM INTO BRETON LANGUAGE, apart the evident links between all the I-E languages... or maybe I have misunderstood some phrases?
good night

[Taranis]

Regarding LeBrok,

I think there's two different issues here: the first is the ethnic identity of the relevant archaeological cultures that predate those that are clearly identifiable because they effectively occur in historic periods (ie. the Przeworsk Culture): the Lusatian Culture and the Pomeranian Culture. The idea that the Lusatian Culture was somehow "Celtic" (or otherwise, speaking a Centum language) is sensible in so far as that the culture is an outgrowth of the Urnfield Culture, and that other successor cultures of Urnfield (the Hallstatt and Golasecca cultures) are usually thought to have been Celtic. As for the identity of the succeeding Pomeranian Culture, it's hard to say in my opinion: I do not think that it was Germanic because it has no real links/continuity with the Nordic Bronze Age or the Jastorf Culture (which are usually thought to represent the Proto-Germanic peoples), unlike it's successors, which fall into the historic period.

The second is the question about the Baltic Veneti themselves: what do we know about them? Very little. The main sources are indeed Tacitus and Ptolemy. Tacitus, as I mentioned before, mentions them as one of the three tribes (the other two being the Bastarnae and the Fenni) that he places at the eastern edge of Germania. Some details about the Veneti can be inferred by their comparison with these other tribes:

- Tacitus says that the Bastarnae speak a Germanic language, from which we can infer that the other two (the Veneti and the Fenni) do not.

- Tacitus describes the Veneti as culturally somewhat similar to the Sarmatians, but living in fixed houses like the Germanic peoples (unlike the nomadic Sarmatians).

Beyond that, we have very little, and I find an ethnic ascription based on this highly speculative in any case. Is it possible that there was a link with the earlier Pomeranian or Lusatian Cultures? Perhaps. Can we prove it? I do not see how.

[MOESAN]

I add the H.HUBERT linkage of some Lusacian rivers or toponymic names to a supposed illyrian language takes a new youth when we consider as scholars do now that "illyrian" previous texts was indeed a mixture of para-italic-venetic (present day N-Yougoslavia-S-Italy) texts with true (more southern) illyrian texts - it could prove the link Lusace-S-Italic and even the link italic-venetic-urnfields in Lusace Culture: all the way, Lusace region knew a tumuli-inhumations culture before the incineration-Urnfield culture: all of them came from South in W-Poland, apparently - maybe 2 waves or only one (celtic?) with later acculturation (italic mod of U-F?) - I do not know -
I have no more the "Les Celtes" of H. Hubert and I would be glad to check the link: Lusacian >< rivers names because it could change the stream: rivers take commonly names from previous populations: it could prove that Veneti of Italy-Pannonia came from North-Central Europe if not from Baltic Europe - it echoes the B. Sergent's hypothesis about a late proto-italic-proto-slavic contacts after proto-celtic><proto-italic separation someplace in Europe! these proto-italic languages could have been closer to future venetic languages: all bets -

[MOESAN]

sorry: for para-italic-venetic I thought: N-Yougoslavia-NE Italy

[zanipolo]

I do not see any clear link between Lusacian and the Y-R1a-1029+ that seams by the way more common than the "slavic" 1029- in this research / this 1029+ seams to me very broadly spred in Europe (Scandinavia, Gemany, Baltic and North-Slavic region, Italy even ...
nothing is opposed to its presence in and during Lusacian Culture: this last was at the fringes of more than an ethny according to someones, and if the first impulses seam came from Central Europe, with a previous non-incineration BUT inhumation phase (under tumuli) the presence of an autochtonous population is very possible - I am not sure at all the Y-R1a was the intrusive and dynamic element, rather a substrate one - so this SNP echoes some local 'corded' descendants people to me (effectively possible ancestors of baltic speaking future peoples -
the problem of veneti/Venedi/Wend reality is still there - were they for the most autochtones descendants or for the most celtic or italic centum I-E intrusive descendants - are the italy Veneti came from Baltis shores or Baltic Veneti came from Italy (I prefer saying: from a future Pannonia-N-Croatia region? I have not already the answer.

I cannot comment on the genetics because its only a february 2012 find.
In regards to the 3 "veneti", the oldest known archeological finds which are dated
1 - Adriatic Veneti 1025 BC
2- Baltic Veneti 380 BC
3 - Armorica Veneti 100BC

I find it more pausible that the adriatic veneti are not linked with the baltic veneti and the only know link is through the amber trade. This trade is IMO only a trade based on a relay system, where the aestii traded to the venedi who traded it to the goths, then they to the Osi, then they to illyrians then to the adriatic veneti.
But finds also have a trade route for jutland amber from Denmark down the elbe to eventually to the adriatic veneti.

There is no genetic link between the adriatic and baltic veneti .

I gave my to scenarios of the adriatic venetic and both scenarios indicated a starting place of western pannonia around 1250BC - where did they arrive from ? - either anatolia or thuringia

[zanipolo]

Regarding LeBrok,

I think there's two different issues here: the first is the ethnic identity of the relevant archaeological cultures that predate those that are clearly identifiable because they effectively occur in historic periods (ie. the Przeworsk Culture): the Lusatian Culture and the Pomeranian Culture. The idea that the Lusatian Culture was somehow "Celtic" (or otherwise, speaking a Centum language) is sensible in so far as that the culture is an outgrowth of the Urnfield Culture, and that other successor cultures of Urnfield (the Hallstatt and Golasecca cultures) are usually thought to have been Celtic. As for the identity of the succeeding Pomeranian Culture, it's hard to say in my opinion: I do not think that it was Germanic because it has no real links/continuity with the Nordic Bronze Age or the Jastorf Culture (which are usually thought to represent the Proto-Germanic peoples), unlike it's successors, which fall into the historic period.

The second is the question about the Baltic Veneti themselves: what do we know about them? Very little. The main sources are indeed Tacitus and Ptolemy. Tacitus, as I mentioned before, mentions them as one of the three tribes (the other two being the Bastarnae and the Fenni) that he places at the eastern edge of Germania. Some details about the Veneti can be inferred by their comparison with these other tribes:

- Tacitus says that the Bastarnae speak a Germanic language, from which we can infer that the other two (the Veneti and the Fenni) do not.

- Tacitus describes the Veneti as culturally somewhat similar to the Sarmatians, but living in fixed houses like the Germanic peoples (unlike the nomadic Sarmatians).

Beyond that, we have very little, and I find an ethnic ascription based on this highly speculative in any case. Is it possible that there was a link with the earlier Pomeranian or Lusatian Cultures? Perhaps. Can we prove it? I do not see how.

i agree with this except that according to the book (2004) the spring of the goths, it states that pommeranian culture was Gothic.


Since Pytheas is the only historian to visit the baltic and he sailed from denmark to estonia. I see there might be a confusion with tacitus and ptolemy on how they interpreted Pytheas. pytheas wrote the names of peoples from east to west even though he sailed west to east ( he must of noted them on his return journey) , he also noted NO armorica veneti prior to reaching the baltic sea.
Pytheas sailed about 150 years prior to Tacitus script.
Pytheas says that the Gutones, a people of Germany, inhabit the shores of an estuary of the Ocean called Mentonomon, their territory extending a distance of six thousand stadia; that, at one day's sail from this territory, is the Isle of Abalus, upon the shores of which, amber is thrown up by the waves in spring, it being an excretion of the sea in a concrete form; as, also, that the inhabitants use this amber by way of fuel, and sell it to their neighbours, the Teutones.

he states
Elattova de eunh vemetai, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi. Eita Boulanej. Uf ouj Foougondiwvej. Eita Auaohnoi, paoa thn cefalhn tou Ouistoula potamou.

translated
Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns. Then the Boulanes. Beyond them are the Frugundians. Then the Avarens, near the head of the Vistula river". Hence his statement "beyond the Venedi, are Guthones" is correct. Venedi were the ancient people living near Vindau, in Latvia; and the Guthones living alongside Venedi surely could be no other people but the inhabitants of old Lithuania.

If this is true then the original goths would have been a baltic people who became germanized after colonizing southern sweden and gotland.
Note- they did find gothic graves in Osel island of latvia

[Yetos]

Zanipolo, this map above about R1a1a1g2d subclade is really very interesting. In my book La dea veneta - Dal Baltico alla Bretagna - CIERRE, sorry in Italian language, there is a similar map I did before this one. My map is concerning Veneti / Wends / Venedy migrations along Amber ways (I mean Ponto-baltic way and East Alps way) on historical and archaeological basis.
In opinion of academic language professors in Venice, Ca' Foscari University, there are many peoples in Europe with a venetic name simply because of the i.e. root *wen and they think that there are NOT ethnic or cultural links between all this population sharing the name. I'm not of the same opinion and I found the same "finger prints" on ceramic vessels, both in Adriatic Veneti and in Lusatian culture (Poland or Ukraine). Archaeologists argue that "finger print" are everywhere in cultures, so I'm looking for a genetic prove about European Venetic names link. The big problem for Veneti haplogroups is that ancient Veneti burn the dead in the fire of pyre so is impossible to have DNA samples because high temperature destroys DNA.

All I can give you for answer is the names like Βενετια Venetia exist in Greek and Byzantine girl names and means blue eye girl,
in Justinianus times we find the Veneti as the Blue athletic club, (Hooligans of the Blue team)
the word Venice in Greek Βενετια means Blue city.
so except the IE root of venedi maybe we should check about about a 'blue' culture? eye colour or a typical dress etc