North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

Even Germans and Irish were considered non-white in the US at some point, lol. Apparently people in those days imagined that the English and Scots spontaneously sprang out of the soil in Great Britain, having no real link to the peoples on the continent (except for the ever-romanticized Vikings and Saxons).

That is not true. Irish and Germans were always considered white. They were considered not as superior to Anglo-Saxons.
 
As for the "Levantine" DNA Italians have significant levels: According to Eupedia Italians have 16-23% J2 -- the Levantine marker. They also have 14% E1b1 (21% in Sicily) and 3-4% J1, so combined they will come out to be very similar to Syrians (Syrians have more 30% J1 but 17% J2 and 12% E1b1) and Lebanese. So if Italians have 20% J1, 4% J1, and 16% E1b1 that will give them 40% Eastern Mediterrenran DNA. Thus Italians are not true Europeans.
Italians aren't a genetically homogeneous group, you'll find an Italian from Lombardy and an Italian from Palermo to be quite genetically different. That aside, you can't determine a population's background and relation to other groups only with uniparental markers, you'll have to look at Autosomal DNA and Autosomal DNA shows that most Italians north of Rome plot alongside other mainland Europeans with Sicilians plotting alongside Ashkenazi Jews and Maltese in the gap between Europe and the near east.
 
So only Scots and English are white in Europe, aren't they?

If you really want to get technical only the Northern Europeans are white, including most Slavs, Northern Spanish, Northen Italian, and Northern Porutguese as well, but not the rest.
 
If you really want to get technical only the Northern Europeans are white, including most Slavs, Northern Spanish, Northen Italian, and Northern Porutguese as well, but not the rest.
The definition of white has changed so much, it's irrelevant these days.
 
That is not true. Irish and Germans were always considered white. They were considered not as superior to Anglo-Saxons.
No, the Irish and Germans were considered non white because they were predominantly Catholic. The Germans also received extra hate during WW1, but in post WW2 it all changed.
 
According to late 19th century WASP Americans only Britons, Irish Protestants and Scandinavians were really white.

Basically the whole genetically Germano_Celtic world. From France on it's southern to Germany on it's western, Scandinavia on it's northern and Ireland on it's western borders.

This is one of the many reasons why "white" is a useless and non scientific term, because in history it has changed it's meanings several times. And it still does.
 
Modern Levantines have loads of Anatolian admixture. So do Iraqis who have both Iranians ans Caucasus ancestries.

Ancient Levantines looked no different from modern ones and they were totally different from Southern Europeans. I've met many Palestinians and Syrians IRL, mostly refugees, and they looked no different from lighter North Africans to me. Sure a few could pass but most look "Arab" because they are Arabs.

Italians also have loads of Anatolian DNA. I disaggree that southern Europeans looked totally different form ancient Levantines. By the end of the Neolithic and Early Bronze Age the Greeks, Illyrians, and other peoples from the southern Balkans had significant amounts of J2 and E1b1. So they must have looked similar. If you think the ancient Greeks were blue-eyed Aryans you are mistaken. Levantines are also not "Arab" by DNA (although they are Semitic). They are culturally "Arab." Most Levantines are a mix like the Italians and Greeks.
 
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No, the Irish and Germans were considered non white because they were predominantly Catholic. The Germans also received extra hate during WW1, but in post WW2 it all changed.

So what? I have taught US History and I never read about this. You must be confused. They were not considered "Anglo-Saxons" but certainly were considered white! Yes the Irish were called "white-niggers." But that was not a race-based degredation. It was economical. Catholicism had nothing to do with race. Germans received hate because we fought against them not because they were considered not white.
 
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Italians also have loads of Anatolian DNA. I disaggree that southern Europeans looked totally different form ancient Levantines. By the end of the Neolithic and Early Bronze Age the Greeks, Illyrians, and other peoples from the southern Balkans had significant amounts of J2 and E1b1. So they must have looked similar. If you think the ancient Greeks were blue-eyed Aryans you are mistaken. Lebntines are also not "Arab" by DNA (although they are Semitic). They are culturally "Arab." Most Levantines are a mix like the Italians and Greeks.

All of Europe has 30 to 80% Neolithic and Bronze/Iron Age Near Eastern ancestry. Only some Europeans have early Mesolithic ancestry which also came from West and South_Central Asia some thousand years earlier by the way.

SO I don't get the point of you and joey. ancient Near Eastern people were as different to modern people of the region as ancient Europeans are to modern Europeans.

the Anatolian farmer sample we have is genetically identical to ancient Europeans and were genetically closer to modern Sardinians, Italians and Iberians as to modern Near Easterners.

Even modern Scandinavians derive 30-40% of their ancestry from these Near Eastern creal farmers. and additional ~8% from West Asian herders.
 
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So what? I have taught US History and I never read about this. You must be confused. They were not considered Anglo-Saxons" but certainly were considered white! Yes the irish were called "white-niggers." But that was not a race-based degredation. It was economical. Catholicism had nothing to do with race. Germans received hate because we fought against them not because they were considered not white.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States#German_Americans

"Large numbers of Germans migrated to North America between the 1680s and 1760s. Many settled in the English colony of Pennsylvania. In the 18th century, many persons of English descent harbored resentment towards the increasing number of German settlers. Benjamin Franklin in "Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, etc.", complained about the increasing influx of German Americans, stating that they had a negative influence on the early United States. The only exception were Germans of Saxon descent "who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased".
Unlike most European immigrant groups, whose acceptance as white came gradually over the course of the late 19th century (that is, in U.S. colloquial definitions, since all Europeans were white by legal U.S. definition), German immigrants quickly became accepted as white.[11]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States#Irish_Americans

"In the 18th century Irish immigrants had the same rights and privileges as all other European settlers. Irish Americans were not always considered white.[12] In fact, up until the dawn of the 20th Century, some Americans did not consider the Irish to be white, and even after most did accept them as such, significant amounts of prejudice still continued for a few decades afterwards in many places."


http://www.dialoginternational.com/dialog_international/2008/02/ben-franklin-on.html

Benjamin Franklin's views on Germans (and on several other European ethnic groups):
"Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation…and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ’tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain…Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it…I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties...In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious."
"Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.

24. Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind."

It's clear that throughout early US history, Germans (and the Irish, and even Swedes) were essentially regarded as swarthy, stupid, non-white people who represented a threat to the United States' "pure English" race, culture, language, values, institutions etc. Considering that even enlightened Americans of the time (Franklin) had this perception, we can guess that the common people held similar views, or were perhaps even more prejudiced.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States#German_Americans

"Large numbers of Germans migrated to North America between the 1680s and 1760s. Many settled in the English colony of Pennsylvania. In the 18th century, many persons of English descent harbored resentment towards the increasing number of German settlers. Benjamin Franklin in "Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, etc.", complained about the increasing influx of German Americans, stating that they had a negative influence on the early United States. The only exception were Germans of Saxon descent "who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased".
Unlike most European immigrant groups, whose acceptance as white came gradually over the course of the late 19th century (that is, in U.S. colloquial definitions, since all Europeans were white by legal U.S. definition), German immigrants quickly became accepted as white.[11]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_the_United_States#Irish_Americans

"In the 18th century Irish immigrants had the same rights and privileges as all other European settlers. Irish Americans were not always considered white.[12] In fact, up until the dawn of the 20th Century, some Americans did not consider the Irish to be white, and even after most did accept them as such, significant amounts of prejudice still continued for a few decades afterwards in many places."


http://www.dialoginternational.com/dialog_international/2008/02/ben-franklin-on.html

Benjamin Franklin's views on Germans (and on several other European ethnic groups):
"Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation…and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, ’tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain…Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it…I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties...In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious."
"Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion.

24. Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionably very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind."

It's clear that throughout early US history, Germans (and the Irish, and even Swedes) were essentially regarded as swarthy, stupid, non-white people who represented a threat to the United States' "pure English" race, culture, language, values, institutions etc. Considering that even enlightened Americans of the time (Franklin) had this perception, we can guess that the common people held similar views, or were perhaps even more prejudiced.

Why an intelligent man like you believe in this crap? Every educated American knows Benjamin Franklin was an ignorant bigot. OK? He never traveled to all the countries or peoples he mentions. He only knew about the colonies, England and France. He certainly never went to Germany, Sweden, Ireland, or Spain. He was ignorant like many participants in this forum. They think because they see a football (soccer) team or a hollywood movie, or some magazine that it represents reality. But it does not.

OK I have seen some Germans that can pass as swarthy but most do not. I knew a German from NW Germany who had a Japanese complexion (swarthy in winter but brown in summer) from Dusseldorf. The only way he would pass for a white man was his language. I personally think -- by my travels -- that E Saxon Germans are more "white" than NW Saxon Germans. Please dont think because you have a philosopher that it means he knows everything or is "wisdom." You need a higher level of analysis to understand. :)
 
So does Drac. He thinks they looked exactly like they were portrayed in paintings by Muslims with light or white skin. Amazing.

I never brought up the word "white" in this subject, you did. It was I that had to explain to you the difference between "white" and "Cacuasian/Caucasoid". And the ancient and medieval portrayals of Arabs by the Arabs themselves show Caucasian people, many with light pigmentation. You believe this is some sort of strange "conspiracy", while most people accept it as simply a reflection of reality. Had the Arabs already been heavily mixed with black Africans by ancient times we should expect to see this reflected in their art.
 
Basically the whole genetically Germano_Celtic world. From France on it's southern to Germany on it's western, Scandinavia on it's northern and Ireland on it's western borders.

This is one of the many reasons why "white" is a useless and non scientific term, because in history it has changed it's meanings several times. And it still does.

Ironically, the word "white" was used in racial contexts by other peoples (including the much talked about Arabs) quite before Northern Europeans and Americans. So they did not even develop this concept but actually "borrowed" it from others and then gave it their own spin.
 
Drac has distorted what I was saying by claiming that I said ALL Arabs are black or part black. But that is not what I said.

Your original claim was that Arabs were either black Africans or heavily mixed with them since ancient times. After being shown evidence to the contrary you have been modifying this claim, but always trying to retain some part of the original claim.
 
Catholicism had nothing to do with race. Germans received hate because we fought against them not because they were considered not white.
Religion was a factor that people of the time used to determine things such as race, you need to realise that what people thought at the time was different than what most people today see.
 
I've still to see a single strong evidence that Italians were officially considered as non white at some point in either Australia or America. The 1924 act limited immigration from all European countries by the way.
 
I've still to see a single strong evidence that Italians were officially considered as non white at some point in either Australia or America. The 1924 act limited immigration from all European countries by the way.
But still most specifically from southern and eastern Europe in order to limit Catholic and Jewish immigration. As for the white Australia policy, it limited basically any non British-Irish immigration.
Although in Australia you weren't deported if you weren't Anglo-Celtic but you
1. Came to Australia before Federation in 1901
2. Was born in Australia

But really, early on the White Australia policy was mainly targeted at Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese etc, and truth be told the Canadians and Americans also had such laws.
 
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Levantines look scandinavians and average northern moroccans are 50-60% blonde hair lol
 
The posters on that "Italic roots" forum, oh dear. Jersey Shore meets Stormfront. They might as well post pictures of crowds in New Orleans after Katrina, or of the Baltimore riots, and claim these pictures as representative of the American population.

It is notorious that the upper classes of Levantine countries have a "fairer" look than the one you see among these Hezbollah radicals; why
? Possibly the effect of a rather old "natural selection" process, as we all know that fair skin and delicate features are held in high standard in the Middle East (and people who have a little more money can obviously be more picky about their mating options).

Anyway, I would estimate that around half the people in those pictures, if they wore Gucci shirts, Armani sunglasses, had a fashionable haircut and a Cristiano Ronaldoesque demeanour, could still pass for being at least Sicilian.


Weird because i'm from Sicily and i confuse the people in the gallery of Joeyc for north african immigrants here.
 

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