Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

  1. #1
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-02-12
    Posts
    2


    Country: Spain - Basque Country



    North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)



    Thanks to the last autosomal study by Dienekes which includes now 268 populations and 3,115 individuals, we can now estimate more accurately the North African admixture in different ethnic groups/regions in Europe.

    Not surprisingly highest admixture is found in Iberia and Sicily which are the only populations with numbers > 2%. Morerover all Iberians (including Catalans) except Basques show North African admixture.

    dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/01/k12b-and-k7b-calculators.html

    Population Northwest_African
    Canarias_1KG 11.8
    Portuguese_D 7.7
    Castilla_Y_Leon_1KG 6.1
    Extremadura_1KG 6.0
    Murcia_1KG 6.0
    Spanish_D 5.1
    Andalucia_1KG 5.1
    Galicia_1KG 5.0
    Sicilian_D 4.1
    Baleares_1KG 3.7
    Castilla_La_Mancha_1KG 3.5
    Aragon_1KG 3.4
    Cantabria_1KG 3.1
    Valencia_1KG 3.0
    Spaniards 3.0
    S_Italian_Sicilian_D 2.5
    Cataluna_1KG 2.4
    C_Italian_D 2.3
    O_Italian_D 1.1
    N_Italian_D 0.9
    TSI30 0.8
    North_Italian 0.7
    French_D 0.6
    Greek_D 0.6
    Bulgarian_D 0.5
    Bulgarians_Y 0.3
    French 0.2
    Russian_B 0.1
    Belorussian 0.0
    British_Isles_D 0.0
    Dutch_D 0.0
    FIN30 0.0
    Finnish_D 0.0
    French_Basque 0.0
    German_D 0.0
    Hungarians 0.0
    Lithuanian_D 0.0
    Lithuanians 0.0
    Mixed_Slav_D 0.0
    Mordovians_Y 0.0
    Norwegian_D 0.0
    Pais_Vasco_1KG 0.0
    Polish_D 0.0
    Romanians 0.0
    Russian 0.0
    Russian_D 0.0
    Swedish_D 0.0
    Tuscan 0.0
    Ukranians_Y 0.0

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Carlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-09-11
    Location
    España
    Posts
    511
    Points
    2,755
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,755, Level: 15
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 295
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a1c* V22+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    España
    Country: Spain



    Is not it wonderful?

  3. #3
    Passione Mediterranea Achievements:
    Three Friends10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    julia90's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-09-10
    Location
    Florence-Prato
    Posts
    1,076
    Points
    19,944
    Level
    43
    Points: 19,944, Level: 43
    Level completed: 11%, Points required for next Level: 806
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Tuscan
    Country: Italy



    this admixture is unimportant on percentage in all europeans (except to some extent canarians for misceneration/mix with native north african people)

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    431
    Points
    7,739
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,739, Level: 26
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 411
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    One can say that the Caucasoid component in North Africa is also evident through such findings as well and that the Iberian peninsula has contributed more Caucasoid admixture, of their particular variety, into the North African population. This would make sense considering Italian averages for North African admixture and the shared history of Naples/Sicily and Aragon.

    In summary, North African admixture in Southern Europe is suggestive of the intricate history of the area, but to assume the direction of flow would be speculative.

    Shared North African admixture may suggest any combination of the following:
    - Shared Arab/SW Asian components
    - Shared Iberian/West Asian Caucasoid components
    - Shared West/Sub-Saharan African components
    Last edited by Dorianfinder; 20-02-12 at 12:52.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,439
    Points
    6,120
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,120, Level: 23
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 430
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    As Julia pointed above, those percents are very low. A non despreciable amount of people getting Northwest African in the K12b experiment (between 2-4%), is 0% African in both World9 and K7b spreadsheets. Of course, this is due to the huge Eurasian influence in North Africa, making absolutely irrelevant the inner African element at this levels.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    431
    Points
    7,739
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,739, Level: 26
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 411
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Like I've said before, when using SNPmap and comparing Middle East and African admixture, the vast majority (at least 90%) of African in Eurasian samples is also common in Middle Eastern admixture (Bedouin, Druze, Palestinian). There definitely appears to be an overlap and depending on one's agenda, one can formulate a statement for or against African or Arab/SW Asian gene flow in Europeans, Jews, Iberians ect ...

    There is a possibility, albeit slight, that a significant percentage of this admixture (2-5%) found in Southern Europe, North Africa and the ME may in fact be unique, like Gedrosia is common to all Europeans but does not suggest modern admixture from Indo-Asia. The question is really, what do Berbers, Turkish Cypriots, Palestinians, Iberians, Jews and Berbers all have in common that stretches across three continents? Your guess is as good as mine. Could the Phoenicians or the Jews have carried this with them?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Like I've said before, when using SNPmap and comparing Middle East and African admixture, the vast majority (at least 90%) of African in Eurasian samples is also common in Middle Eastern admixture (Bedouin, Druze, Palestinian). There definitely appears to be an overlap and depending on one's agenda, one can formulate a statement for or against African or Arab/SW Asian gene flow in Europeans, Jews, Iberians ect ...
    No, because the middle-eastern is low in Iberians. The ratio doesn't add up.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    431
    Points
    7,739
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,739, Level: 26
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 411
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    No, because the middle-eastern is low in Iberians. The ratio doesn't add up.
    Before I comment let me say that one really needs to study the autosomal SNP frequencies to ascertain whether we are talking about African gene flow to Europe or Eurasian gene flow into Northern Africa. I have glanced at some of the allele frequencies and am astonished at how some autosomal SNPs have been designated geographical or population titles based on the data we have. In short, the δ value otherwise the difference in frequency of a particular autosomal SNP between two populations, needs to be statistically significant (0.95) for it to be associated with a particular geographical/population group. I know of a study that has shown that the AIMs are for the most part (>80) lacking statistical significance (δ) necessary and yet studies are being conducted based on outdated and poorly researched autosomal SNP frequencies. Quite simply, it would seem that the majority of African AIMs are in fact weak geographic markers (Ancestry Informative Markers). Even the West African or as most admixture series have them, Africa/Sub-Saharan African autosomal SNPs, have been designated as such because of the allele frequencies in the HapMap Nigerian population study. The problem here, and let me emphasize just how much of a problem this is, is that the same allele combinations on the same autosomal SNPs have been found in numerous other populations from Asia to Europe in essence disqualifying these markers from admixture analyses. The problem is that the high frequency portrayed in the HapMap project is not matched by any other population group study, pointing to simple sampling bias and overgeneralisation. The HapMap CEU comparative sample, that is not representational of European autosomal SNPs, is not used as a proxi for 'European SNP' designation, so why should the Nigerian sample? The inconsistencies are scewing the picture and African admixture is problematic not only from the perspective of Europeans who have small amounts of African yet have no reason to, but more significantly African participants show sizeable European admixture, senseless admixture that points to poor African autosomal studies.

    Wilhelm, your observation makes sense, a low middle-eastern percentage in Iberians suggests that the direction of flow may have been from West to East, a Phoen.. or Jewish diffusion may have carried it throughout certain populations. This correlates with the West to East cline of this component in Southern Europe. A component that!20spread through diffusion from SW Europe to the middle east. Judging from the relatively high percentage of SW European in middle eastern individuals, this component may stem from ancient Iberia or something along these lines. The Dodecad project has a few British participants who have never left the UK and have this North African component and traces (>1%) of Sub-Saharan admixture. The truth be told, ancient middle eastern and/or Jewish population movements may have helped to disperse this component in Britain as in Palestine, Portugal, Cypriot Turks, Italians and the Maltese.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Achievements:
    7 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    19-02-12
    Posts
    2


    Country: Spain - Basque Country



    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    It is also interesting to note that the distribution of North African admixture in Iberia in Dodecad/K12b is similar to what was found by Adams et al. 2008 (The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula at .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/?tool=pmcentrez) and also reflects the distibution of E-M81 (berber) haplogroup


    1) E-M81 distribution calculated by Adams et al. 2008

    Castile, NorthWest 100 10.00%
    Andalucia, West 73 9.59%
    Portugal, South 78 7.69%
    Galicia 88 9.09%
    Extremadura 52 7.69%
    Valencia 73 4.11%
    Portugal, North 60 3.33%
    Castile, NorthEast 31 3.23%
    Aragon 34 2.94%
    Andalucia, East 95 2.11%
    Castile, La Mancha 63 1.59%
    Catalonia 80 1.25%
    Basques 116 0.86%
    Asturias 20 0.00%


    2) North African admixture calculated by Adams et al. 2008


    Iberian region %NW African male admixture
    Castile, NorthWest 21.7%
    Galicia 20.8%
    Extremadura 19%
    Andalucia, West 16.7%
    Portugal, South 16.1%
    Valencia 12.8%
    Portugal, North 11.8%
    Asturias 10.5%
    Castile, NorthEast 9.3%
    Majorca 6.6%
    Aragon 4.8%
    Ibiza 3.8%
    Andalucia, East 2.4%
    Catalonia 2.3%
    Castilla 0.9%

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,439
    Points
    6,120
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,120, Level: 23
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 430
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Sorry, but the mentioned study was pure nonsense. There's no data proving that E-M81, J2 and other linages, were carried by Jews or Muslims. Most of this is likely to be much older, although we still need more ancient DNA.

    The autosomal estimation is even more funny. No way Galicians & Portuguese are in the 16-22% range, I don't know where do you see the correlation with the K12b experiment. My guess is that you are not Basque and have a strange agenda behind, it seems pretty clear considering your 2 posts and the information you show.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Carlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-09-11
    Location
    España
    Posts
    511
    Points
    2,755
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,755, Level: 15
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 295
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a1c* V22+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    España
    Country: Spain



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Haplogroup E needs further study. It is possible that an important body of humanity is so little studied, yet are unable to tell me how the hell my ancestor V22 arrived in Spain. My avatar is my father, younger blonde was my mother has a weakness for blond hair.

    Anyway I think that the user attempts to demonize the M81 Euskadi, a Basque true not act that way, it seems very suspicious.

    Haplogroup E needs further study. It is possible that an important body of humanity is so little studied, yet are unable to tell me how the hell my ancestor V22 arrived in Spain. My avatar is my father, younger blonde was my mother has a weakness for blond hair.

    Anyway I think that the user attempts to demonize the M81 Euskadi, a Basque true not act that way, it seems very suspicious. What is needed is more research on the haplogroup E to find out how, when and where.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by Euskadi View Post
    It is also interesting to note that the distribution of North African admixture in Iberia in Dodecad/K12b is similar to what was found by Adams et al. 2008 (The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula at .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/?tool=pmcentrez) and also reflects the distibution of E-M81 (berber) haplogroup
    That's not the distribution of North-African admixture, but of the frequency of y-DNa E-M81 of only one single study. For more accurate percentages, is better to accumulate different studies, like they do here :

    http://anthrospain.blogspot.com.es/2...-in-spain.html

    In general, the percentage of E-M81 in Spain (4-5%) is not very different from that of France, or parts of France (3-4%). In fact, parts of Spain, like in Huelva, Andalusia, have less E-M81 than parts of France, like Auvergne.

    As for the Adams et al. study is pure bullshit, since they only used a 3-way population to make the spanish admixtures : Basques (who are an genetica isolate, thus not representative in anyway of the "pure" iberians), Sephardics and North-Africans, and without using Autosomal dna. So the NW Africa score actually carries a lot of West-European alleles. In fact, when doing admixture runs without a North-African component, the north-africans have quite of Atlanto-Med component (which is high in Irish and Basques). The 21% North-African in Castille obviously doesn't make any sense: These percentages would make more sense for Canarians (who have guanche admixture, and have been tested with autosomal as having 18% NAfrican).




  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,635
    Points
    9,507
    Level
    29
    Points: 9,507, Level: 29
    Level completed: 27%, Points required for next Level: 443
    Overall activity: 19.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    You have for France :

    French n=3/85 3.5% Cruciani 2004.
    French n=3/73 4.1% Scozzari 2001.
    Auvergne n=5/89 5.62 Cruciani 2004.
    Île-de-France (5/91) 5.49 Cruciani 2004.
    Béarn, Gascony n=1/56 1.78% Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012,
    Bigorre, Gacony n=1/44 2.72% Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012,


    While in Spain :

    Southern Spaniards n=1/62 1.6% Scozzari 2001.
    Huelva, Andalusia n=5/167 2.99% Ambrosio 2010.
    Andalusia East n=2/95 2.1% Adams et al.2008
    Cadiz, Andalusia n=0/28 0.0% Flores et al.2004


    We can see that E-M81 has nothing to do with Muslims, that is pure bullshit of these studies, who have political agendas behind, the distribution of E-M81 in Iberia and France doesn't follow at allt he pattern of Muslim history, because you have Galicia or Cantabria or even parts of France having more than Granada (where Islam lasted the longest !! ). Pure logic.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience PointsOverdrive
    zanipolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    22-03-11
    Location
    Eastern Australia
    Posts
    1,977
    Points
    9,037
    Level
    28
    Points: 9,037, Level: 28
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 313
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1 - L446
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H26a1

    Ethnic group
    Venet
    Country: Australia



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    some people here are too nationalistic in their tone to other people ................ you know who I speak about.

    Take , Euskadi, he presents some percentages and tells people where and who wrote this data, and yet some people ridicule him , why ?

    So, what if he is or not basque, the argument is against Adams and not the case of insulting Euskadi.

    HGs do not belong to nations or cultures exclusively and its about time you remove modern national boundaries when writing in this forum.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Carlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-09-11
    Location
    España
    Posts
    511
    Points
    2,755
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,755, Level: 15
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 295
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a1c* V22+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    España
    Country: Spain



    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    some people here are too nationalistic in their tone to other people ................ you know who I speak about.

    Take , Euskadi, he presents some percentages and tells people where and who wrote this data, and yet some people ridicule him , why ?

    So, what if he is or not basque, the argument is against Adams and not the case of insulting Euskadi.

    HGs do not belong to nations or cultures exclusively and its about time you remove modern national boundaries when writing in this forum.

    Where are the insults?

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Carlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-09-11
    Location
    España
    Posts
    511
    Points
    2,755
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,755, Level: 15
    Level completed: 2%, Points required for next Level: 295
    Overall activity: 14.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1a1c* V22+
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    España
    Country: Spain



    Wilhelm
    We can see that E-M81 has nothing to do with Muslims, that is pure bullshit of these studies, who have political agendas behind, the distribution of E-M81 in Iberia and France doesn't follow at allt he pattern of Muslim history, because you have Galicia or Cantabria or even parts of France having more than Granada (where Islam lasted the longest !! ). Pure logic.
    No more blind as those who will not see. Obviously the low level of M81 in Spain must be of the oldest Muslim period in Spain, since the raids and deportations were carried out in bulk and meticulous, and 800 years, less centuries since then in many areas with presence Muslims are not sufficient to mixed marriages, especially considering that in those days there was no globalization and anti-nature ideas, and religion marked the lives of people so there would be a great apartheid between different ethnic groups, racial, religious or what you say.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,439
    Points
    6,120
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,120, Level: 23
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 430
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    I was the first who said Euskadi was not Basque (or a serious participant, doesn't matter) because of the 2 posts talking about the same, and I also considered the strange conclusion comparing K12b results with the mentioned study. Really, there's absolutely no similarity: ¿where is the 20% North African among Gallicians in the K12b experiment?, ¿how can somebody think such thing seriously if there isn't an agenda behind?


    Sorry, but some things are too evident. I guess you wasn't talking about me zanipolo (you know what happened in other threads), but I wanted to leave this clear explaining the reason of my position.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    431
    Points
    7,739
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,739, Level: 26
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 411
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Before I comment let me say that one really needs to study the autosomal SNP frequencies to ascertain whether we are talking about African gene flow to Europe or Eurasian gene flow into Northern Africa. I have glanced at some of the allele frequencies and am astonished at how some autosomal SNPs have been designated geographical or population titles based on the data we have. In short, the δ value otherwise the difference in frequency of a particular autosomal SNP between two populations, needs to be statistically significant (0.95) for it to be associated with a particular geographical/population group. I know of a study that has shown that the AIMs are for the most part (>80) lacking statistical significance (δ) necessary and yet studies are being conducted based on outdated and poorly researched autosomal SNP frequencies. Quite simply, it would seem that the majority of African AIMs are in fact weak geographic markers (Ancestry Informative Markers). Even the West African or as most admixture series have them, Africa/Sub-Saharan African autosomal SNPs, have been designated as such because of the allele frequencies in the HapMap Nigerian population study. The problem here, and let me emphasize just how much of a problem this is, is that the same allele combinations on the same autosomal SNPs have been found in numerous other populations from Asia to Europe in essence disqualifying these markers from admixture analyses. The problem is that the high frequency portrayed in the HapMap project is not matched by any other population group study, pointing to simple sampling bias and overgeneralisation. The HapMap CEU comparative sample, that is not representational of European autosomal SNPs, is not used as a proxi for 'European SNP' designation, so why should the Nigerian sample? The inconsistencies are scewing the picture and African admixture is problematic not only from the perspective of Europeans who have small amounts of African yet have no reason to, but more significantly African participants show sizeable European admixture, senseless admixture that points to poor African autosomal studies.
    Dienekes very recently stated the following:

    _5.jpg

    It is noteworthy, that for the first time, some deep Sub-Saharan African populations show evidence of Eurasian admixture; the type of this admixture is not clear, but it seems to be mostly West rather than East Eurasian. It may, in fact, reflect an element that was already West Eurasian-like, since there is a definite excess of the West Eurasian-centered component in the Sub-Saharan populations.

    Note that this element was picked up because the SNP ascertainment was done on a San individual. The San were not generally used for the ascertainment of SNPs in commercial SNP arrays designed for association studies, and hence their SNP diversity is generally under-reported. But, the panel4 of SNPs was ascertained in a San individual with full genome sequencing (as described in the Harvard HGDP materials).

    Hence, it appears that Yoruba are 82.9% of the San-centered component, BantuKenya 78.3%, BantuSouthAfrica 86.9%, BiakaPygmy 94.7%, Mandenka 80.9%, MbutiPygmy 97.9%. San-centered components have appeared before in ADMIXTURE experiments, but the crucial difference here is that the remainder of the African populations' ancestry does not fall in another Sub-Saharan-centered component, but rather in the Eurasian ones.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,870
    Points
    10,674
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,674, Level: 31
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 576
    Overall activity: 63.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Dienekes very recently stated the following:

    _5.jpg

    It is noteworthy, that for the first time, some deep Sub-Saharan African populations show evidence of Eurasian admixture; the type of this admixture is not clear, but it seems to be mostly West rather than East Eurasian. It may, in fact, reflect an element that was already West Eurasian-like, since there is a definite excess of the West Eurasian-centered component in the Sub-Saharan populations.

    .
    not too surprising
    if it is true that some North African Berber populations show a light imput of 'black' or 'negroid' blood when speaking of phenotypes (and they have a genetic basis) the same can be said about subsaharian populations: some of their ethnies show a very important imput of 'white' (I think 'caucasian' not only for the skin colour) - Look at the Peuls, came almost surely from Eastern Africa, maybe from Arabia or Levant - I heard speak by serious people of green eyes frequent even so far as in ethnies of Cameroun (but I have not the names of these ethnies): I know personally breton-male-cameounese female's children "chocolate coloured" with very beautiful fully pure BLUE EYES even if their mother is black eyed... Cameroun is a hotspot of Y-R1b in some tribes (even if I know it is unsecure doing too easy links...

    for E1-M81 I think seriously that this SNP was carried to Iberia at several times and by several populations - for the ones we find in France and Western Iberia, North Portugal, I think these ones came there before the Muslims invasions- some surveys conclude like that also - speaking about skeletons and crania, grimaldoïd types was yet around the Mediterranean Sea (Spain, Southern France, Italy, even Greece) at the level of 4% to 12% of the skeletons at the last neolithic - what HG to attirbute to them??? for CHARLES the type was not dominant but frequent enough in Egypt at the Néolithic. the today majority of western Berbers of HG E1-M81 have not this old 'grimaldoid' type (confused with Cro-Magnon by someones, that is an error) - E1 (the old SNP before subdivisions well known noaday in Europe and Africa and Levant) could have been bearer of 'negroid' prognathy we find attenuated in southern Europe and Near-East and that was found attenuated too in the first LBK Rubanés COON's 'danubians' - this do not signify all downstream E1b bearers had completely the same physical features, only a remote influence, from a place in Eastern Africa where people was evoluting yet to a partially 'caucasian' type - another survey concludes that some light 'subafrican' metric facial features for was to be found among the very first neolithic agicultors -

  20. #20
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender

    Join Date
    25-10-11
    Location
    Brittany
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,870
    Points
    10,674
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,674, Level: 31
    Level completed: 18%, Points required for next Level: 576
    Overall activity: 63.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    I had that for bones a lot of Ethiopians and Erythreans looks far more 'caucasian' than 'subafrican' (common but yet very unprecise namings)

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    431
    Points
    7,739
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,739, Level: 26
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 411
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Dienekes notes that HG A and B are purely African Y-haplogroups whereas HG D is East Asian. He states that sccording to the new software preliminary findings show that African populations with HG E have proportionally higher amounts of West Eurasian genetic input suggesting that HG E may not be 'entirely' African. This is interesting as it links HG E with Eurasia and not with Africa as first thought. No doubt this will be followed up with some interesting comments and articles.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Knovas's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-05-11
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,439
    Points
    6,120
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,120, Level: 23
    Level completed: 14%, Points required for next Level: 430
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a1a*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    K1b1a

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberian / Catalan
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Yes Dorian, these are fascinating findings. Seems like the Out of Arabia hypothesis suggested by Dienekes' regarding modern human origins, was more than pure fantasy and must be considered. If we asume that haplogroup E originated somewhere around the Arabian Península, and that humans who carried the ancient marker were already more caucasoid than anything else (or I'd better talk about affinities with modern caucasoids, not easy to define), then, some things begin making more sense.


    I know it's too early and quite dificult to state how old is the West Eurasian influence found among deep Sub-Saharan populations, specially those living in a more Western direction. But you know, it's impossible to avoid thinking about this and remembering possible related discussions.
    Last edited by Knovas; 25-03-12 at 22:03.

  23. #23
    Elite member Achievements:
    10000 Experience PointsVeteran
    spongetaro's Avatar
    Join Date
    14-01-11
    Posts
    706
    Points
    12,688
    Level
    34
    Points: 12,688, Level: 34
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 662
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Dorianfinder View Post
    Dienekes notes that HG A and B are purely African Y-haplogroups whereas HG D is East Asian. He states that sccording to the new software preliminary findings show that African populations with HG E have proportionally higher amounts of West Eurasian genetic input suggesting that HG E may not be 'entirely' African. This is interesting as it links HG E with Eurasia and not with Africa as first thought. No doubt this will be followed up with some interesting comments and articles.
    Haplogroup E would then be some sort of Back migration to Africa but when did this migration occur? It would be interesting if its correlated with the spread Afro Asiatic languages to Africa.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Tagger Second ClassThree Friends5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Dorianfinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-08-11
    Location
    Milos
    Posts
    431
    Points
    7,739
    Level
    26
    Points: 7,739, Level: 26
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 411
    Overall activity: 8.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-U152 L2*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T2

    Ethnic group
    Hellene
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yes Dorian, these are fascinating findings. Seems like the Out of Arabia hypothesis suggested by Dienekes' regarding modern human origins, was more than pure fantasy and must be considered. If we asume that haplogroup E originated somewhere around the Arabian Península, and that humans who carried the ancient marker were already more caucasoid than anything else (or I'd better talk about affinities with modern caucasoids, not easy to define), then, some things begin making more sense.


    I know it's too early and quite dificult to state how old is the West Eurasian influence found among deep Sub-Saharan populations, specially those living in a more Western direction. But you know, it's impossible to avoid thinking about this and remembering possible related discussions.
    Coon's theory consists of a linear continuum with Eurasians on the one end and Pygmy and San on the other end. Dienekes decided to test this out and found that the Pygmy and San are indeed farthest away on the PC plot from Eurasians with the Yoruba being the closest African population. East African populations such as the Ethiopians have even more Eurasian but this includes more recent Arabic and SW Asian input which is not what Dienekes is interested in as he would like to focus on the palaeo-Eurasian component in Africans.

  25. #25
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    24-12-12
    Posts
    1
    Points
    367
    Level
    4
    Points: 367, Level: 4
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 83
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Portugal



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My values... 5% of north african. I am from lisbon and all of my ancestors lived nearby lisbon.
    Population
    Gedrosia 5.18%
    Siberian -
    Northwest_African 4.98%
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 43.11%
    North_European 24.66%
    South_Asian 0.45%
    East_African 0.84%
    Southwest_Asian 7.08%
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 13.41%
    Sub_Saharan 0.29%

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 186
    Last Post: 04-12-11, 23:46
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 08-09-11, 17:59
  3. Children's well-being in Europe and North America
    By Maciamo in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 10-08-11, 11:14

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •